Really, I understand how Amalek have trouble with it... but you're playing a list similar to mine (no Serums, but still Push and Negates), so... how exactly you have trouble against them? I'm used to test with a really good Company player, who knows exactly how the deck works and all the weak point he can take advantage of when paired against hard control. Still, I'm undefeated since they swapped gears, bringing in the "new combo" and making the deck less consistent than before. I mean, we really have everything we need to face this kind of adversary. What are the issues you have with the match-up?
Well, before I get into it, the list I was playing for reference:
Of note, I wanted to fit a 4th Wrath in the main, but didn't want to cut anything. I went with 3 Push/1 Alliance split for testing and also because I believed that would be better for the sake of Death's Shadow. After having played it some, I still prefer the 2/2 split to be honest.
Anyways, the issues I felt in the matchup -- firstly, nothing ever seemed to die. Maybe I was just unlucky (or he was just lucky), but it seemed like he always had a Saffi out to protect anything on the board or a Rallier to bring it back. Fatal Push felt like a life gain spell rather than a kill spell, and Path was a godsend unless he had Viscera Seer out (hint: he T1'd a Seer in 2/3 games and Companied into Finks/Viscera in G1). Secondly, every time I would cast removal during combat to stem the bleeding, he would follow up combat with a Sculler/Sin Collector. So, even though I had 4 Wraths, I barely got to use them. When I did, it didn't matter because of Company or Ewit. So yeah. I was horrendously behind every turn. In G3 I landed a Halo on Finks and finally got ahead, but he ripped Company into a Tireless Tracker and played a fetch to instantly refill. =/
In hindsight, I think I should be less greedy with wraths and just cast them immediately instead of waiting. But it's not like he had a huge offensive board -- it would be dumb stuff like a Birds, Seer, and Wall of Roots. So I'd wait, and he'd go for a Sculler or Collector. Not to mention that those terrible board states would change into wrathable boardstates on a dime due to Gavony Township. I also sided out a majority of my countespells (and brought in 2 dispels) to prevent myself from being behind on board with no removal in hand, maybe that's a mistake. Idk, maybe he just had everything.
Edit: I also forgot to side out Blessed Alliance against him, which is terrible against Finks and Rallier. I should also mention that he wasn't on the Devoted Druid combo either.
The collected company matchups are always awful to play for this deck because CoCo is so flexible--it's on the CoCo pilot to decide how to play the match, and we have to adjust accordingly. If they choose to nickel and dime us for card advantage (only commit one card at a time, noting that a lot of their cards are 2 for 1's; never aggressively presenting a potential combo opportunity) it can be hard to get anywhere with the wraths + haymakers plans. On the other hand, if they aggressively play for the combo, spot removal is hard to make use of because they'll just rebuild from nowhere again. It's a matchup that highlights the classic reason why threats are better than answers: there are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. In a game of chicken here, we lose more than half the time because we're the ones who have to both "guess right" AND "draw right". You can't commit to both spot removal and sweepers, or they'll just bury you in card advantage with renegade rallier, eternal witness, saffi, kitchen finks, chord, and collected company. This is why I've always tried to fight these matchups by attacking their source of card advantage (almost always graveyard-dependent, so cage/rip/surgical), and by presenting on-board threats that they can't actually trump (baneslayer angel, elspeth).
@kodieyost While I agree with you in principle that rest in peace is more brutal against dredge in general, surgical extraction and extirpate are far stronger for the esper draw-go builds against dredge simply because we don't really pack a way to "turn the corner" and punish dredge for overextending into the graveyard to begin with. Once you surgical the amalgams, you're left with trying to beat bloodghasts and hard-cast dredge threats. Beating hard-cast dredge threats is fairly easy now that they all die to wraths (no more regenerating trolls!), and the first couple of ghasts can be path'd or just traded for--after a certain point, dredge also runs out of fetchable lands, which makes wrath + surgical a way to clear them once and for all as well.
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Dunno, have you played a bunch of games or only three/four to test?
Against AbCo? Or against more recent lists? In general, yes -- I've played plenty against AbCo (and may be too stuck in the old logic for the matchup). Against the Saffi/Rallier versions? Nope, only played that one match + extra game. I will keep your suggestions in mind.
Wrath + backup counter is usually enough
But don't they play a bunch of Saffis and Finks? How is a Wrath stabilizing you here? Do you just counter the Saffis and Finks (or Path Finks)?
The collected company matchups are always awful to play for this deck because CoCo is so flexible--it's on the CoCo pilot to decide how to play the match, and we have to adjust accordingly. If they choose to nickel and dime us for card advantage (only commit one card at a time, noting that a lot of their cards are 2 for 1's; never aggressively presenting a potential combo opportunity) it can be hard to get anywhere with the wraths + haymakers plans. On the other hand, if they aggressively play for the combo, spot removal is hard to make use of because they'll just rebuild from nowhere again. It's a matchup that highlights the classic reason why threats are better than answers: there are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. In a game of chicken here, we lose more than half the time because we're the ones who have to both "guess right" AND "draw right". You can't commit to both spot removal and sweepers, or they'll just bury you in card advantage with renegade rallier, eternal witness, saffi, kitchen finks, chord, and collected company. This is why I've always tried to fight these matchups by attacking their source of card advantage (almost always graveyard-dependent, so cage/rip/surgical), and by presenting on-board threats that they can't actually trump (baneslayer angel, elspeth).
How do you leverage Surgical when it doesn't actually keep up on board? It's not like RiP, cutting off multiple on-board/in hand threats all at once and for good -- it's targeted and also graveyard reliant. I agree with the reasoning for playing it, but I'm curious as to how you applicate it in play strategy with the card. Also, how often do you attack with Baneslayer if at all?
Bloodghast isn't the only way to play around surgical. Keeping a live neonate also does it. Or darkblasting a hardcasted golgari thug (or even abrupt decay on it). Generally keep the dredging to a minimal until they have outs to surgical because we don't present a very fast clock. Strongly unfavorable for us, even post board.
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I don't ever surgical the dredgers. When I'm on extraction effects I most often win by decking the dredge player. Take their ghasts and amalgams, and all of a sudden they're a bad draft pile that probably mills itself for about 3 a turn.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Ok back with a little bit of Esper control thopter sword reports. Current score of the deck is 11-4-2 after a number of events. I played at an FNM where I went 0-2 drop total because I was EXTREMELY tired and let me tell you, you should not be playing esper control if you are tired. Lost to Bant Eldrazi (2-1) and to the new counters company (2-0). Not much to say, just don't play tired.
A friend of mine took the deck and piloted it at the Dutch Open went 4-2-2. I am planning to make some adjustments on the basis of his feedback. Can't remember all the matches, losses were definitely to Dredge (abysmal MU) and Eldrazi Tron. Draws were Esper control and Grixis control (dem control mirrors). Wins Can't remember but there was an Eldrazi Tron among them.
Anyway, I am pretty satisfied with the list, after 4 events, with a rather positive score and I think it is time to start tuning it. If you guys have the cards I suggest to give it a spin, it is really enjoyable. All feedback and suggestions is always most welcome. Cheers! (decklist follows)
Hey, so me and SES have been brewing a slightly different build of esper, still rooted firmly as draw go, but a much sleeker build that is lower to the ground and is in the vein of past wafo designs from the Patrick chapin article "what would wafo do?"
I will attach a copy of my most recent list that I built last night and carried to a 5-0 with ease this morning, proving that I have tried and failed with previous builds to terrible success and a new breath of fresh air was what was needed I think. this list is not set in stone and I feel it is very flexible.
it felt weird to cut my beloved thinks and rev's but I think the overall build really rewards the wait, wait,wait and win plan with the visions allowing to invest 1 mana and not have to defend a rev in control match ups, and allows to be flexible in our mana management better vs all the aggressive decks that are out there.
The runed halos were not that moist useful maindeck, and I think a swap of negate and blessed to the md allows us to keep 3 halo in the 75 and give us outs to valakut and other crazy scary cards that are hard to deal with.
On the topic of Dredge - It's been a little while since I've played Dredge, but the last 2 times I vs them post-Troll ban, I went 2-0 both times. This isn't the norm and I did get pretty lucky in both game 1's, but post board I don't really attribute to luck since I play 5 pieces of grave hate game 2's.
My list is a bit different so it may not exactly apply to most people but I'll go through what I found worked for me:
In game 1:
1. Dredge isn't as consistent without GGT. They can and they do get explosive draws that are unbeatable but it's generally less common without GGT so their draws on average are a bit slower. Resilient still, but slower.
2. Turn 2 Cathartic Reunion is make or break (to an extent.) This is their most dangerous card for mine. I play Mana Tithe and Spell Snare which catches their turn 2 CR, subsequently putting on the brakes for a little while. If CR resolves, it's most likely going to win them the game by fuelling their impressive board position.
3. Once they have slowed down, I either:
a) Look to race them with Snap/Bolt/Tar Pit and Cryptic Command's psuedo-Sleep mode. Basically, trying to kill them ASAP before they build up their inevitability. Dredge does a bit of self damage from their own shocklands so it's not impossible to deal lethal quicker.
2. Game 2 is a LOT better chance to win. With lots of grave hate, it's easier to shut them down and just churn through our deck with card draw spells until we win the late game.
3. Their best post-board card I think is Thoughtseize (not all Dredge plays it) which can take the hate cards. Other than that, if you can stop CR or hit them with a SE, the only real threat is recurring Imps and Thugs but I think lots of card draw and board sweepers can deal with this all game if they are slowed right down.
I will note that Conflagrate is one of the synonymous cards of the archetype, but I did not have too much issue with it. As long as their board position is under control, it's not too threatening. But if you're a bit behind the 8-ball, then it becomes a game winner for them since it can tie up our mana a bit.
Anyways, this is my ANECDOTAL experience playing against the deck. It is not a fun match up for us and we have to be very lucky to win game 1, but there are ways to fight back and post board grave hate goes a long way in making the match up more manageable.
Hey, so me and SES have been brewing a slightly different build of esper, still rooted firmly as draw go, but a much sleeker build that is lower to the ground and is in the vein of past wafo designs from the Patrick chapin article "what would wafo do?"
I will attach a copy of my most recent list that I built last night and carried to a 5-0 with ease this morning, proving that I have tried and failed with previous builds to terrible success and a new breath of fresh air was what was needed I think. this list is not set in stone and I feel it is very flexible.
it felt weird to cut my beloved thinks and rev's but I think the overall build really rewards the wait, wait,wait and win plan with the visions allowing to invest 1 mana and not have to defend a rev in control match ups, and allows to be flexible in our mana management better vs all the aggressive decks that are out there.
The runed halos were not that moist useful maindeck, and I think a swap of negate and blessed to the md allows us to keep 3 halo in the 75 and give us outs to valakut and other crazy scary cards that are hard to deal with.
You're foils are beautiful yolo swaggins like a boss! I like the foiled unhinged basics but my favourite basics are TimeSPiral alt art promos
The sideboard was supposed to have 1-2 Jace, Architect of thought for Gb/x / souls matchups but Donny forgot and played purge
That being said. It's pretty straightforward. My concept for switching from Think Twice / Rev Engine to AV / Serum was, as Donny said, to stay low to the ground.
Assuming we rev for 5, the think twice and Rev package net us 18 cards for 36 mana, ancestral nets us 12 for 4 mana.
You could argue that the life gain is worth a card too, but still, thats 20 cards for 36 mana.
These aren't new arguments. It's just that I played an awful lot of games where Rev felt clunky, and I wanted SV, but didn't have room for everything. Ancestral Vision serves the role of both think twice and Rev in this sense. Which gives us room for more cheap answers.
Sideboard should be more of the same. The same core advantage engine, powering out either a) more removal and board control b) more counters
and then stuff like runed halo which is always an all star and versatile in basically every matchup.
Donny mentioned keeping the numbers the same, but moving alliance main and a few halo to the board to get maximum value out of snapcaster game 1.
looking at the sideboard, you'll see there's no (reasonable) matchup we don't have SOME sort of out to. Keeping broad answers like detention sphere and Halo help against dredge, or even something as obscure as lantern (halo on codex shredder)
In fact, I won a lantern match this weekend by putting halo on codex shredder, then casting secure for a bunch, and letting AV come off suspend and target my opponent, which let me underneath ensnaring bridge. D sphere would have worked there too if I had drawn it.
How did 2 Snaps feel? Could that number go up? Seems there are more targets with the inclusion of SV. Did the deck feel more tap-out than Draw-Go? Would you consider running something like Spreading Seas in the SB? List looks cool!
The sideboard was supposed to have 1-2 Jace, Architect of thought for Gb/x / souls matchups but Donny forgot and played purge
That being said. It's pretty straightforward. My concept for switching from Think Twice / Rev Engine to AV / Serum was, as Donny said, to stay low to the ground.
Assuming we rev for 5, the think twice and Rev package net us 18 cards for 36 mana, ancestral nets us 12 for 4 mana.
You could argue that the life gain is worth a card too, but still, thats 20 cards for 36 mana.
These aren't new arguments. It's just that I played an awful lot of games where Rev felt clunky, and I wanted SV, but didn't have room for everything. Ancestral Vision serves the role of both think twice and Rev in this sense. Which gives us room for more cheap answers.
Sideboard should be more of the same. The same core advantage engine, powering out either a) more removal and board control b) more counters
and then stuff like runed halo which is always an all star and versatile in basically every matchup.
Donny mentioned keeping the numbers the same, but moving alliance main and a few halo to the board to get maximum value out of snapcaster game 1.
looking at the sideboard, you'll see there's no (reasonable) matchup we don't have SOME sort of out to. Keeping broad answers like detention sphere and Halo help against dredge, or even something as obscure as lantern (halo on codex shredder)
In fact, I won a lantern match this weekend by putting halo on codex shredder, then casting secure for a bunch, and letting AV come off suspend and target my opponent, which let me underneath ensnaring bridge. D sphere would have worked there too if I had drawn it.
I like the idea, I've dabbled with AV in the past and I indeed too removed TT for it, but I never cut Sphinx Rev. Was something like - 4 AV, 4 SV, 4 EC, 2 Rev if I remember. It actually wasn't too bad. I also thought Blessed Alliance was pretty good for the strategy of buying time until AV comes off suspend then Verdict cleans up with a fist full of lands/action. I think your idea has merit.
The only real question I have for you is: "Is AV REALLY low to the ground?"
I mean, I see AV as a 5 mana card, not a 1 mana card if that makes sense. I know 'technically' you're only spending 1 mana on it, but it doesn't actually do anything until 4 turns later. So with that reasoning, I actually count AV as a 4 or 5 drop, similar to a rev in that regards.
Also a general question. Is it ever ok to side out a Ghost Quarter against aggro decks? I'm finding I only have 1 slot for sideout in the main against aggro, but sometimes I need a 2nd sideout slot against specific aggro decks and the only other cut I could potentially see is something like a Ghost Quarter which ain't doing much vs aggro anyway. Will going down from 26 - 25 land vs aggro negatively effect me?
Personally, it DOES feel low to the ground. I'd ask Donny though. Later this week he may stream and I'll get on twitch too and we'll all have a party.
To be fair, Donny 5-0'd with the other style list too, so he's just a good pilot in general, but he was telling me personally about how he felt like the old list was in a rut. I usually text him my brews and we talk about what's loose and what isn't.
If you see him going to 24 lands and playing new gideons and lingering souls it's probably bc I bothered him enough and he let go of his better judgement. lmao
But in all seriousness, he faced some serious, common match ups and killed it. He metioned that death's shadow felt like he could never possibly lose at all. So thats good news!
So ancestral is low but it's only 1, the 4 Turks can be problematic in certain times I'm sure but knowing you have a visions on the down tick means you adjust to have it come off and you then turn the for or. Knowing you have 2 visions in separate turns always made my charm in discard mode feel even better as you know your draw is coming.
I had maybe 1-2 games where I stalled at 4-5 mana till the visions that I suspended my visions on less ideal turns plays out but over all the think twice removal feels like a stronger improvement as grave hate is high due to dredge and also surgical and such and this makes it so we have exactly 5 cards in the 75 that care about the grave yard and that will make our post board games stronger when they bring in rip/relic/ slspellbomb to deal with your yard and you just laugh and resolve visions 1 and go to town.
When I play it next I'm gonna just swap the halos to the board for the 1 negate and 1 blessed, it's a change that improves our g2 vs decks packing decay like jund and abzan as they see into snap and side them out when we slam halos and spheres g2 we know they will be less molested by uncounterable spells.
I think a third snap would of be out of the question, 2 was enough to see early or late and not feel flooded as I did with 3 some times often in the face of a rest in peace in early turns, snap visions t3 to hit a verdict or cryptic mana is not the worst play if you have not much going in hand.
So ancestral is low but it's only 1, the 4 Turks can be problematic in certain times I'm sure but knowing you have a visions on the down tick means you adjust to have it come off and you then turn the for or. Knowing you have 2 visions in separate turns always made my charm in discard mode feel even better as you know your draw is coming.
I had maybe 1-2 games where I stalled at 4-5 mana till the visions that I suspended my visions on less ideal turns plays out but over all the think twice removal feels like a stronger improvement as grave hate is high due to dredge and also surgical and such and this makes it so we have exactly 5 cards in the 75 that care about the grave yard and that will make our post board games stronger when they bring in rip/relic/ slspellbomb to deal with your yard and you just laugh and resolve visions 1 and go to town.
When I play it next I'm gonna just swap the halos to the board for the 1 negate and 1 blessed, it's a change that improves our g2 vs decks packing decay like jund and abzan as they see into snap and side them out when we slam halos and spheres g2 we know they will be less molested by uncounterable spells.
I think a third snap would of be out of the question, 2 was enough to see early or late and not feel flooded as I did with 3 some times often in the face of a rest in peace in early turns, snap visions t3 to hit a verdict or cryptic mana is not the worst play if you have not much going in hand.
Thanks for all the info! Some of those match-ups you played seemed pretty favorable; do you feel like the adjustments you made really helped or was some of it due to the match-ups? Sorry for all the questions I'm just very curious.
Well our matchups were not terrible for us, however each of them were close especially affinity where I was sweating a few turns for sure but 5 sweepers made it winnable plus d sphere for playing is essential I believe.
We def have matchups that are less fqvourable such as eldrazi tron but part of achieving success is having a bit of luck matchup wise.
Well our matchups were not terrible for us, however each of them were close especially affinity where I was sweating a few turns for sure but 5 sweepers made it winnable plus d sphere for playing is essential I believe.
We def have matchups that are less fqvourable such as eldrazi tron but part of achieving success is having a bit of luck matchup wise.
No doubt and I'm not questioning your success is any way, just trying to get a feel for how the changes affect our match-ups. Please continue to post your results with this list, it's definitely caught my attention. Thanks again for all the input and congrats on the 5-0!
Well, before I get into it, the list I was playing for reference:
4x Celestial Colonnade
2x Drowned Catacomb
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Mystic Gate
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Watery Grave
3x Island
2x Plains
1x Swamp
1x White Sun's Zenith
Counters (9)
2x Negate
3x Logic Knot
4x Cryptic Command
Removal (11)
3x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
1x Blessed Alliance
3x Supreme Verdict
Card Advantage (13)
4x Think Twice
4x Esper Charm
2x Sphinx's Revelation
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Dispel
2x Celestial Purge
2x Runed Halo
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Wrath of God
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Of note, I wanted to fit a 4th Wrath in the main, but didn't want to cut anything. I went with 3 Push/1 Alliance split for testing and also because I believed that would be better for the sake of Death's Shadow. After having played it some, I still prefer the 2/2 split to be honest.
Anyways, the issues I felt in the matchup -- firstly, nothing ever seemed to die. Maybe I was just unlucky (or he was just lucky), but it seemed like he always had a Saffi out to protect anything on the board or a Rallier to bring it back. Fatal Push felt like a life gain spell rather than a kill spell, and Path was a godsend unless he had Viscera Seer out (hint: he T1'd a Seer in 2/3 games and Companied into Finks/Viscera in G1). Secondly, every time I would cast removal during combat to stem the bleeding, he would follow up combat with a Sculler/Sin Collector. So, even though I had 4 Wraths, I barely got to use them. When I did, it didn't matter because of Company or Ewit. So yeah. I was horrendously behind every turn. In G3 I landed a Halo on Finks and finally got ahead, but he ripped Company into a Tireless Tracker and played a fetch to instantly refill. =/
In hindsight, I think I should be less greedy with wraths and just cast them immediately instead of waiting. But it's not like he had a huge offensive board -- it would be dumb stuff like a Birds, Seer, and Wall of Roots. So I'd wait, and he'd go for a Sculler or Collector. Not to mention that those terrible board states would change into wrathable boardstates on a dime due to Gavony Township. I also sided out a majority of my countespells (and brought in 2 dispels) to prevent myself from being behind on board with no removal in hand, maybe that's a mistake. Idk, maybe he just had everything.
Edit: I also forgot to side out Blessed Alliance against him, which is terrible against Finks and Rallier. I should also mention that he wasn't on the Devoted Druid combo either.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
@kodieyost While I agree with you in principle that rest in peace is more brutal against dredge in general, surgical extraction and extirpate are far stronger for the esper draw-go builds against dredge simply because we don't really pack a way to "turn the corner" and punish dredge for overextending into the graveyard to begin with. Once you surgical the amalgams, you're left with trying to beat bloodghasts and hard-cast dredge threats. Beating hard-cast dredge threats is fairly easy now that they all die to wraths (no more regenerating trolls!), and the first couple of ghasts can be path'd or just traded for--after a certain point, dredge also runs out of fetchable lands, which makes wrath + surgical a way to clear them once and for all as well.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Against AbCo? Or against more recent lists? In general, yes -- I've played plenty against AbCo (and may be too stuck in the old logic for the matchup). Against the Saffi/Rallier versions? Nope, only played that one match + extra game. I will keep your suggestions in mind.
But don't they play a bunch of Saffis and Finks? How is a Wrath stabilizing you here? Do you just counter the Saffis and Finks (or Path Finks)?
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
How do you leverage Surgical when it doesn't actually keep up on board? It's not like RiP, cutting off multiple on-board/in hand threats all at once and for good -- it's targeted and also graveyard reliant. I agree with the reasoning for playing it, but I'm curious as to how you applicate it in play strategy with the card. Also, how often do you attack with Baneslayer if at all?
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I think it goes from 20/80 to 35/65-40-60 post board for me.
I bring in:
2 leyline of the void (they typically play abrupt decay and natural state these days)
2 RiP
3rd and 4th PtE
1 wrath
Baneslayer Angel
coming out:
1 StW
1 Sphinx rev
2 negate
4 fatal push
I'm playing a pretty stock list, nothing fancy or tech really. 3 colonnade 1 tar pit is the only off piece
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A friend of mine took the deck and piloted it at the Dutch Open went 4-2-2. I am planning to make some adjustments on the basis of his feedback. Can't remember all the matches, losses were definitely to Dredge (abysmal MU) and Eldrazi Tron. Draws were Esper control and Grixis control (dem control mirrors). Wins Can't remember but there was an Eldrazi Tron among them.
Anyway, I am pretty satisfied with the list, after 4 events, with a rather positive score and I think it is time to start tuning it. If you guys have the cards I suggest to give it a spin, it is really enjoyable. All feedback and suggestions is always most welcome. Cheers! (decklist follows)
1x Torrential Gearhulk
3x Thopter Foundry
2x Sword of the Meek
4x Cryptic Command
2x Logic Knot
1x Negate
1x Muddle the Mixture
3x Supreme Verdict
3x Path to Exile
2x Fatal Push
4x Esper Charm
3x Think Twice
3x Serum Visions
1x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Watery Grave
1x Godless Shrine
2x Drowned Catacomb
1x Glacial Fortress
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Celestial Collonade
1x Academy Ruins
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Fatal Push
1x Gideon Jura
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
2x Negate
2x Stony Silence
3x Thoughtseize
1x Timely Reinforcements
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I will attach a copy of my most recent list that I built last night and carried to a 5-0 with ease this morning, proving that I have tried and failed with previous builds to terrible success and a new breath of fresh air was what was needed I think. this list is not set in stone and I feel it is very flexible.
it felt weird to cut my beloved thinks and rev's but I think the overall build really rewards the wait, wait,wait and win plan with the visions allowing to invest 1 mana and not have to defend a rev in control match ups, and allows to be flexible in our mana management better vs all the aggressive decks that are out there.
The runed halos were not that moist useful maindeck, and I think a swap of negate and blessed to the md allows us to keep 3 halo in the 75 and give us outs to valakut and other crazy scary cards that are hard to deal with.
Esper draw go Control!
Twitch stream: http://www.twitch.tv/pimpdonny
My list is a bit different so it may not exactly apply to most people but I'll go through what I found worked for me:
In game 1:
1. Dredge isn't as consistent without GGT. They can and they do get explosive draws that are unbeatable but it's generally less common without GGT so their draws on average are a bit slower. Resilient still, but slower.
2. Turn 2 Cathartic Reunion is make or break (to an extent.) This is their most dangerous card for mine. I play Mana Tithe and Spell Snare which catches their turn 2 CR, subsequently putting on the brakes for a little while. If CR resolves, it's most likely going to win them the game by fuelling their impressive board position.
3. Once they have slowed down, I either:
a) Look to race them with Snap/Bolt/Tar Pit and Cryptic Command's psuedo-Sleep mode. Basically, trying to kill them ASAP before they build up their inevitability. Dredge does a bit of self damage from their own shocklands so it's not impossible to deal lethal quicker.
b) I play a mainbaord Surgical Extraction. So I Mystical Teachings for Surgical Extraction taking out their strongest win cons for mine which are either Bloodghast or Prized Amalgam. With those creatures gone, this gives me back the inevitability and just play the typical draw go game plan against them.
In game 2:
1. Sided in my 4 copies of grave hate - Surgical Extraction, Ravenous Trap, Rakdos Charm, Extirpate. In addition to mainboard Surgical Extraction, I've a decent shot at opening with some hate. I also side in Izzet Staticaster to hit Gasts/Narco/Thugs.
2. Game 2 is a LOT better chance to win. With lots of grave hate, it's easier to shut them down and just churn through our deck with card draw spells until we win the late game.
3. Their best post-board card I think is Thoughtseize (not all Dredge plays it) which can take the hate cards. Other than that, if you can stop CR or hit them with a SE, the only real threat is recurring Imps and Thugs but I think lots of card draw and board sweepers can deal with this all game if they are slowed right down.
I will note that Conflagrate is one of the synonymous cards of the archetype, but I did not have too much issue with it. As long as their board position is under control, it's not too threatening. But if you're a bit behind the 8-ball, then it becomes a game winner for them since it can tie up our mana a bit.
Anyways, this is my ANECDOTAL experience playing against the deck. It is not a fun match up for us and we have to be very lucky to win game 1, but there are ways to fight back and post board grave hate goes a long way in making the match up more manageable.
WMMT5dx: Car - RK Coupe Track - Hakone Outbound
You're foils are beautiful yolo swaggins like a boss! I like the foiled unhinged basics but my favourite basics are TimeSPiral alt art promos
What match ups did you face for dat 5-0?
WMMT5dx: Car - RK Coupe Track - Hakone Outbound
Esper draw go Control!
Twitch stream: http://www.twitch.tv/pimpdonny
That being said. It's pretty straightforward. My concept for switching from Think Twice / Rev Engine to AV / Serum was, as Donny said, to stay low to the ground.
Assuming we rev for 5, the think twice and Rev package net us 18 cards for 36 mana, ancestral nets us 12 for 4 mana.
You could argue that the life gain is worth a card too, but still, thats 20 cards for 36 mana.
These aren't new arguments. It's just that I played an awful lot of games where Rev felt clunky, and I wanted SV, but didn't have room for everything. Ancestral Vision serves the role of both think twice and Rev in this sense. Which gives us room for more cheap answers.
Sideboard should be more of the same. The same core advantage engine, powering out either a) more removal and board control b) more counters
and then stuff like runed halo which is always an all star and versatile in basically every matchup.
Donny mentioned keeping the numbers the same, but moving alliance main and a few halo to the board to get maximum value out of snapcaster game 1.
looking at the sideboard, you'll see there's no (reasonable) matchup we don't have SOME sort of out to. Keeping broad answers like detention sphere and Halo help against dredge, or even something as obscure as lantern (halo on codex shredder)
In fact, I won a lantern match this weekend by putting halo on codex shredder, then casting secure for a bunch, and letting AV come off suspend and target my opponent, which let me underneath ensnaring bridge. D sphere would have worked there too if I had drawn it.
I like the idea, I've dabbled with AV in the past and I indeed too removed TT for it, but I never cut Sphinx Rev. Was something like - 4 AV, 4 SV, 4 EC, 2 Rev if I remember. It actually wasn't too bad. I also thought Blessed Alliance was pretty good for the strategy of buying time until AV comes off suspend then Verdict cleans up with a fist full of lands/action. I think your idea has merit.
The only real question I have for you is: "Is AV REALLY low to the ground?"
I mean, I see AV as a 5 mana card, not a 1 mana card if that makes sense. I know 'technically' you're only spending 1 mana on it, but it doesn't actually do anything until 4 turns later. So with that reasoning, I actually count AV as a 4 or 5 drop, similar to a rev in that regards.
Also a general question. Is it ever ok to side out a Ghost Quarter against aggro decks? I'm finding I only have 1 slot for sideout in the main against aggro, but sometimes I need a 2nd sideout slot against specific aggro decks and the only other cut I could potentially see is something like a Ghost Quarter which ain't doing much vs aggro anyway. Will going down from 26 - 25 land vs aggro negatively effect me?
WMMT5dx: Car - RK Coupe Track - Hakone Outbound
To be fair, Donny 5-0'd with the other style list too, so he's just a good pilot in general, but he was telling me personally about how he felt like the old list was in a rut. I usually text him my brews and we talk about what's loose and what isn't.
If you see him going to 24 lands and playing new gideons and lingering souls it's probably bc I bothered him enough and he let go of his better judgement. lmao
But in all seriousness, he faced some serious, common match ups and killed it. He metioned that death's shadow felt like he could never possibly lose at all. So thats good news!
I had maybe 1-2 games where I stalled at 4-5 mana till the visions that I suspended my visions on less ideal turns plays out but over all the think twice removal feels like a stronger improvement as grave hate is high due to dredge and also surgical and such and this makes it so we have exactly 5 cards in the 75 that care about the grave yard and that will make our post board games stronger when they bring in rip/relic/ slspellbomb to deal with your yard and you just laugh and resolve visions 1 and go to town.
When I play it next I'm gonna just swap the halos to the board for the 1 negate and 1 blessed, it's a change that improves our g2 vs decks packing decay like jund and abzan as they see into snap and side them out when we slam halos and spheres g2 we know they will be less molested by uncounterable spells.
I think a third snap would of be out of the question, 2 was enough to see early or late and not feel flooded as I did with 3 some times often in the face of a rest in peace in early turns, snap visions t3 to hit a verdict or cryptic mana is not the worst play if you have not much going in hand.
Esper draw go Control!
Twitch stream: http://www.twitch.tv/pimpdonny
Thanks for all the info! Some of those match-ups you played seemed pretty favorable; do you feel like the adjustments you made really helped or was some of it due to the match-ups? Sorry for all the questions I'm just very curious.
We def have matchups that are less fqvourable such as eldrazi tron but part of achieving success is having a bit of luck matchup wise.
Esper draw go Control!
Twitch stream: http://www.twitch.tv/pimpdonny
No doubt and I'm not questioning your success is any way, just trying to get a feel for how the changes affect our match-ups. Please continue to post your results with this list, it's definitely caught my attention. Thanks again for all the input and congrats on the 5-0!