Sometimes it feels like I don't play ENOUGH removals
There's a sideboard for when you have these issues. You can't really expect to cover your Combo match-up with 3 Knot and 3 Cryptics (the Mana Tithes are absolutely horrible against big-mana decks, Ad Nauseam and Storm). I see how you gain multiple cards for game two and three, but you're pratically conceding game one most of the time. Surgical is good IF you're able to counter something before, or else is just a dead card in your hand.
I don't have experience playing Teachings with 4-C, but I highly suggest you to swap at least the Tithes for some Negates.
I don't know man... I'm currently sitting at 3/4 vs Storm and last time I played Ad Nauseam (a little while back) I managed to 2-0 and that was when I was testing 3 Remand (instead of Logic Knot), 2 Negate, 3 Cryptic Command as my counter set up. I can't even really count Remand as a true counter so I was basically running only 5 hard counters and still got there.
Nowadays, 3 Knot, 3 Cryptic works pretty well for me as my 'core' counters. Instead of going for a higher quantity, I'm using Mystical Teachings > Surgical Extraction so that generally means that if I can get rid of their major combo piece either with E.Charm discard or a Logic Knot, then I SE it which means I don't have to sit on 'infinite' counters since there's nothing really to counter any more. I feel it's just a slightly different way to approach the combo match ups and has been working alright for me in testing.
With regards to Mana Tithe, I am fully aware of your argument to include Negate instead and do understand your reasoning, I agree with you and know that Negate is a much more powerful card over majority of the game. The reasons I decided to test Tithe:
1. Curve. Jamming 2 Negate left me a bit heavy on the 2 drops, while leaving me with only 6 1 drop removal spells (not countering Surgical here.) I have tested 2 Negates in place of Tithe's and would vastly prefer to play Negate over Tithe, but I found Tithe just fits the curve so much better and allows me some extra turn 1 plays.
2. So why not Spell Snare since it's a 1 drop too? The issue I had with Snare, was that it could never counter a spell that wasn't 2cmc. Problem cards like turn 2-3 Blood Moon or decks curving out with big plays over the first few turns of the game aka "nut draws" were one of the biggest weaknesses of my deck. That even includes big mana decks with their best play being a turn 3 Karn, which Tithe stops cold. Even though Snare is vastly superior to Tithe the longer the game goes on, I personally felt Tithe offered me more protection against more things in the early game than Snare did. And that's what I was specifically looking at with Tithe, the first few turns of the game. To put it into perspective a little bit, technically Cryptic Command is a dead card from turns 1-3 in a fast format like Modern. Not debating the power level of the card at all, just trying to give an example of how I'm justifying playing Tithe.
That's what I theorised, but so far in testing, while Tithe isn't perfect, it has put in some good work for me as a supplemental counter for the early game.
Been testing 3 Blessed Alliance in the main too and I may just stick with it for a while. I do find my mana base is a little bit painful to support the red splash and I'm really noticing the effects of the extra BA, mainly in the increase of game time since it is stalling pretty hard lol.
I have to admit TeferiBrah, I've played my fair share of Esper Red (though never with Teachings) and I've always found it unnecessarily clunky. Kolagan's Command isn't nearly as good as Esper Charm, and really needs a Snapcaster in the grave to be great; Bolt conflicts with the structure of the deck by forcing aggression in some situations and failing to kill anything on others. Helix was always good, but fetch-shocking for the red land (or an Esper land later) was always against the point -- and this was from testing before Fatal Push and Alliance even existed. Not to mention the weakness to blood moon. I honestly think you're putting up good results because you're a tight player, and you could do just as well slotting a few Teachings and a Surgical into a stock Esper list.
Personally, I find the idea of using mana tithe intriguing. But I would never want more than two, and its kinda useless after the first few turns. I might have to test it a bit.
@topic
I find it sad that a lot of creative suggestions to develop esper draw-go are getting completly ignored, while people shaking each other hands "yea im playing the same list besides 1-2 x-cards" or just switching 1-2 cards over and over again thinking they found the break through rofl. Many here are moving in circles. (yes, what works doesnt have to change, but if we want to develop a deck we have to try out new stuff... expecially with new releases. copy paste over and over again will bring us nowhere.
@Aegraen I find the idea of building around Scour the Laboratory very interesting even if it kinda looks very long-winded. I definitly gonna give Cast Out a try. In my last tournament and test Gideon of the Trials has proven to be a good choice, expecially the low mana cost helped a lot (playing him with 5 lands, having 2 left open for a counterspell for example) I only play one copy combined with another copy of Gideon Jura!
Well, with the increased cantrips you can shave lands. I've been playing 24 and it feels real good in practice and goldfishing. So right there you're really only replacing 3 "cards" with the creature cyclers and many people here are all ready playing serum visions which I feel like is worse in the deck due to being sorcery (awkward with counters) and playing 8+ fetches as well as 2-4 pushes (these cards want you to do opposite things) which diminish the value of the scry 2 imho. When you view it that way, it's not that much of a deckbuilding cost. You can include 1 of the TT in those 3 cards as well so think of it like replacing 2 serum visions with 2 cyclers. In return you get a better CA engine that synergizes with snapcaster. I've felt that it's easier to put the game away going Scour > Snap/Scour than it is to wait until I have 8 mana to draw 1 Sphinx's Rev for example (The big problem for me with "stock" lists is how clunky it is). I definitely think it's underrated and it got a lot better with Amonkhet. You have Colonnades, Snaps, and cycling land to mitigate flooding (plus the cyclers are split creatures and I've won 2 games with them on like T18 before). So I haven't really been missing the clunkiness of the X-spells. I think it's something for people to try and test and be pleasantly surprised - or not, up to people if they feel like stock lists are the best we can do.
Yeah, Gideon is amazing. He's so versatile in a range of MU's and he's won me 4 games on his own. He's nigh unbeatable in Ux control mirrors, does work against Burn, tempo decks, fringey T3+ combo decks that you'll sometimes run up against which historically give the deck a fit, etc. Like I said, I've never not been happy to see him, but not sure you can play more than 2 since you don't want multiples clogging your hand (he also makes Push > Snap/Push better). Jura is interesting. How've you found him alongside Trials?
@topic
I find it sad that a lot of creative suggestions to develop esper draw-go are getting completly ignored, while people shaking each other hands "yea im playing the same list besides 1-2 x-cards" or just switching 1-2 cards over and over again thinking they found the break through rofl. Many here are moving in circles. (yes, what works doesnt have to change, but if we want to develop a deck we have to try out new stuff... expecially with new releases. copy paste over and over again will bring us nowhere.
I tend not to respond to comments about subjects that I don't feel educated enough to speak on. Take, for example, Aegraen's Glassdust Hulk list. I like the concept, and don't really see a fault in it (I would personally add Academy Ruins to recur the cycle-able threats, which should be every control player's dream). However, I don't have the time I used to, so I haven't been able to test it myself (I'm also in the middle of 12 alterwork commissions, so yeah). Thus, I prefer to just sit back and listen to the results, since it's the best I can do.
Edit: For the sake of contributing to the constant debate of numbers, I've been on 3 Snapcasters in my list now for a while and I certainly don't see dropping the 3rd any time soon. With Push as a 3 of and Alliance as a 3/4 of in the 75, Snapcaster is just too valuable not to play more of. Also, I mentioned Clique in my previous post -- it's been great too. I cut Surgicals, if anyone's wondering, since dredge apparently sees no play at my LGS back home.
Cheers for the different perspectives dudes, something to think about for me.
I fear cutting bolt that I may not be able to beat specific decks in game 1. If you could offer any alternative ways to win without bolt it would be appreciated as I just can't see beating some decks without bolts going to the face:
Time Walk - I have won game 1's off the back of snap/bolt to race before they gigadrowse > infinite turns. I fear without bolt I cannot win this?
BW Tokens - The tokens and Bitterblossom consistently clog up the board which makes it impossible to attack with my snaps and teferi. Bolt and Creeping Tar Pit has allowed me to ignore their infinite chump blockers and win the game. Without bolt, I am not sure how to win this?
Faeries - Similar to BW Tokens but even harder due to permission on their end. Bolt/snap/bolt has allowed me to win using their own Bitterblossom against them. WIthout bolt I don't think I can beat their leaner disruption and tempo.
Ux Mill - Bolt speeds up the clock and on more than 1 occasion I have snap/bolted for lethal on my upkeep with 0 cards left in my library. Without bolt I don't think I can race fast enough?
Lantern - Basically the same as Ux Mill.
Various combo - Tron, Valakut, Ad Nauseam, Restore Balance, Living End, Reanimator, Storm, Eggs etc. Bolt has won me SO many game 1's just by being able to punish some of their slower starts or just being able to out-tempo them and burn them out a turn or 2 before they go off. Without bolt, I don't feel as confident to race these decks in game 1.
Control mirror - Bolt has been good to force sub-optimal plays from the opponent. The chip damage does add up and force them to burn counters leaving my more important card adv engines to take over. Without bolt, I feel I lose that "X-Factor" in the mirror and will come down to more a 50/50 scenario. This is probably a weaker example though and I should be able to do without bolt here, but still.
Planeswalkers - Bolt gives me an out to planeswalkers game 1 without having to play more 'clunkier' stuff like Anguished, Cast Out or U End. Without Bolt, I can somewhat deal with walkers with tar pits and snaps, but bolt does this much more effectively.
Dredge - I have won my last 2 game 1's against Dredge. Bolt/Snap and Cryptic tapping allowed me to punish a slow start from them. Without Bolt I would of been dead if I didn't deal 3-6 damage to the face before they got to their untap step with a million creatures on the field. Not sure how I have chance to win game 1 without bolt?
These are just some examples of certain decks in game 1 that I am not sure how to beat without racing them with bolt. If you have any alternatives for bolt in above scenarios then please let me know as I am kind of stumped in that regard.
Apparently, the meta of the store is changing quite regularly. My friends told me (they're on Ad Nauseam and Jund Death's Shadow) that there's a high change to encounter some Eldrazi decks, blue-based control (last week there was a UW Ojutai control build) but almost no one is playing Affinity.
I have two question:
- Is my sideboard reasonable?
- Should I play 4 Think twice? Maybe I could play one more Logic Knot or Serum Visions. I even thought about kicking SV out completely on go up on Logic and lands (Drowned Catacomb)...
Apparently, the meta of the store is changing quite regularly. My friends told me (they're on Ad Nauseam and Jund Death's Shadow) that there's a high change to encounter some Eldrazi decks, blue-based control (last week there was a UW Ojutai control build) but almost no one is playing Affinity.
I have two question:
- Is my sideboard reasonable?
- Should I play 4 Think twice? Maybe I could play one more Logic Knot or Serum Visions. I even thought about kicking SV out completely on go up on Logic and lands (Drowned Catacomb)...
Your questions show you're in the right mindset and the list seems like a perfectly reasonable starting point to determine what changes you prefer in your own list. (You can go back the last few pages to see how passionate we can be about our specific 75 and that's because we all have slightly different play styles and this deck has about a half-dozen flex slots in the MD and more in the board. If you don't like the feel of Visions, swap it out for a land and a business spell like Knot and go from there. See how you like the 9th fetch vs another Buddy land. I don't think 2/4/4 on Serum/TT/EC is too much per se, though. It all comes down to preference.
As for your board, I would suggest a couple of modifications. The AU is a fine catch all, but it could be a Celestial Purge, which handles most of the stuff we will want Unmaking for while still being relevant against Burn. The Gideon could be an Elspeth 6, which seems more hard-hitting in then matches where you want a PW. And I don't think Souls is enough of a silver bullet to warrant a one-of slot. Depending on the decks you would bring it in against, you could replace it with another removal spell, PW, even Timely Reinforcements and might get better results.
Have fun! As has been said before, there are no free wins with this deck, but once you know its ins and outs, you can take down almost anything.
Thanks for the feedback! Cryptic Command and Esper Charm have some many applications... but they're also difficult to "master".
Your right with Celestial Purge. I will put it instead of AU.
Big Elspeth is on my To-acquire .
These are just some examples of certain decks in game 1 that I am not sure how to beat without racing them with bolt. If you have any alternatives for bolt in above scenarios then please let me know as I am kind of stumped in that regard.
Very often having more Esper Charms seems just better. Like, against Faeries, Tokens and Taking Turns, you can just blow up their Bitterblossom and Dictate of Kruphix, which is more important than throwing some random Bolts at the opponent. Against Combo it's pretty much the same: Charm in discard mode + Snap-Charm (discard, again) it's extremely powerful, and it can't be worse than Snap-Bolt. I believe laying less Esper Charms is the reason you sometimes struggle in these match-ups. But, hey, as I previously said I never really ran a 4-C Teachings.
Thing is, I still had the same problems when I had 4 Esper Charm. I also replaced 2 Charms with 2 K-Command which discards their hand as well, so I'm not really losing significant amount of discard either. Charm snap charm is good, but is very mana inefficient too, especially against the instant speed plays the better combo decks can make. And the longer you wait, so you don't get caught with your pants down tapping out, the more draw steps the combo player can get to sculpt their hand.
Also, games don't really play out like thatt mos tof the time. Faeries and tokens will have discard or counters to protect their 2 mana bomb. EsperCharm is very clunky in this situation.
Time Wslk will just wait until they have 5+ lands in play, since we can't pressure them, then gigadrowse (which cannot be countered) > GGS. Burning an Esper Charm on a dictate isnt a bad play, but its not doing much in the long run since they'll have enough time to sculpt their hand.
Charm is better vs Tron, Ad Naus, Valakut and I do try to actively discard with k-command and charm when given the chance.
Against Mill, Lantern, Dredge, Charm is laughable at best. I've won game 1's with bolts against this decks but I cannot say charm discard is of any use.
I getwhat your sayingabout E Charm vs combo = no cards in hand is how to win. But i think that is very generalised and there are other archetypes that may be listed under "combo or rogue"' like Lantern for example that Charm does nothing in discard mode. Which is why I think the only way to beat stuff like that in game 1 is to pressure fast and bolt/snap offers about a quarter of their life total's worth of damage while saving deck space. That is what my opinion is on this matter
Ok I must say you are slowly convincing me on not needing to rely on bolt to race said decks. I've been quite afraid to play control without any bolts and I am trying to overcome that fear.
I may slowly edge toward replacing the bolts with pushes when I build up more confidence, but I still like the K-Commands, they are brutal with snapcaster and helps fight against heavy discard.
I have done a lot of google searches trying to find any material or testing done by players with an Esper shell and As Foretold. Has there been any testing amongst this thread with this card and AV, what's the consensus? I know esper draw-go doesn't want AV like grixis does but with As Foretold perhaps a new shell could be made to play it in esper?
My own experimentation with as foretold indicates that it's probably actually better in a 4-color deck, because the way as foretold works means you want to have sculpting and interactive instants on 1, interactive spells on two, and powerful spells on three and four. However, you also don't want to go much higher than 4 because as foretold only ticks up once per turn, and in the 50% of games you don't get one online you have to somehow still cast your spells. since "cast your spells without as foretold" is a requirement, but as foretold also wants you to play fewer lands to take advantage of the mana and spell density aspects of the card, so you're stuck on playing the powerful spells in a very narrow band of CMCs.
The idea being to play like a wafo-tapa style 4c deck from ages ago, and just dig like hell through your deck--4 visions, 4 ancestral, 4 remand, 4 charm, 3 electrolyze, 3 cryptics means you're going to tear through the deck like crazy, and hopefully snaps + manlands can get the job done when you're also getting a mana advantage from the as foretolds. The problem was mana base issues in testing--4 colors is just too painful for a control deck in modern, and if you don't hit as foretold relatively early (by turn 5 or 6) the game is over because you can't out-tempo your opponent since your spells cost too much, and you can't bury them in card advantage fast enough to matter because there's no hard sweepers and you don't have powerful x-spells to take over the game.
When I get back around to it, I want to test with think twice because as foretold does let you cast flashback cards.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
When I get back around to it, I want to test with think twice because as foretold does let you cast flashback cards.
I don't think that works, actually. From the gatherer page for As Foretold: "If you cast a card for an alternative cost of 0 [using As Foretold], you can’t pay any other alternative costs, such as emerge costs." Flashback is an alternative cost, so you can't pay for the flashback AND use As Foretold's alternate cost per the rule quoted.
That said, As Foretold does have a lot of potential -- I keep thinking of it as an Aether Vial, but that's really misleading. For example, you get a spell EACH turn, meaning both yours and the opponent's. So you could use As Foretold to Ancestral Vision on your main and still hold up a free counterspell on the opponent's turn.
When I get back around to it, I want to test with think twice because as foretold does let you cast flashback cards.
I don't think that works, actually. From the gatherer page for As Foretold: "If you cast a card for an alternative cost of 0 [using As Foretold], you can’t pay any other alternative costs, such as emerge costs." Flashback is an alternative cost, so you can't pay for the flashback AND use As Foretold's alternate cost per the rule quoted.
That said, As Foretold does have a lot of potential -- I keep thinking of it as an Aether Vial, but that's really misleading. For example, you get a spell EACH turn, meaning both yours and the opponent's. So you could use As Foretold to Ancestral Vision on your main and still hold up a free counterspell on the opponent's turn.
It is a fun card but I do not see it in esper, rather jeskai restore balance or some UGx eternal command where they have something to abuse it (rather than using it).
Aw yeeeeaaaaah, suck it mono-blue Tron. Nice Mindslaver you got there; it would be a shame if somebody... Bam! Runed Halo! Oh, what's that? You only have two cards in hand? Wouldn't want to Esper Charm you, then. Oops, my bad. If only I had a Surgical Extraction... Oh, wait, I have two.
-Ulka
I don't know man... I'm currently sitting at 3/4 vs Storm and last time I played Ad Nauseam (a little while back) I managed to 2-0 and that was when I was testing 3 Remand (instead of Logic Knot), 2 Negate, 3 Cryptic Command as my counter set up. I can't even really count Remand as a true counter so I was basically running only 5 hard counters and still got there.
Nowadays, 3 Knot, 3 Cryptic works pretty well for me as my 'core' counters. Instead of going for a higher quantity, I'm using Mystical Teachings > Surgical Extraction so that generally means that if I can get rid of their major combo piece either with E.Charm discard or a Logic Knot, then I SE it which means I don't have to sit on 'infinite' counters since there's nothing really to counter any more. I feel it's just a slightly different way to approach the combo match ups and has been working alright for me in testing.
With regards to Mana Tithe, I am fully aware of your argument to include Negate instead and do understand your reasoning, I agree with you and know that Negate is a much more powerful card over majority of the game. The reasons I decided to test Tithe:
1. Curve. Jamming 2 Negate left me a bit heavy on the 2 drops, while leaving me with only 6 1 drop removal spells (not countering Surgical here.) I have tested 2 Negates in place of Tithe's and would vastly prefer to play Negate over Tithe, but I found Tithe just fits the curve so much better and allows me some extra turn 1 plays.
2. So why not Spell Snare since it's a 1 drop too? The issue I had with Snare, was that it could never counter a spell that wasn't 2cmc. Problem cards like turn 2-3 Blood Moon or decks curving out with big plays over the first few turns of the game aka "nut draws" were one of the biggest weaknesses of my deck. That even includes big mana decks with their best play being a turn 3 Karn, which Tithe stops cold. Even though Snare is vastly superior to Tithe the longer the game goes on, I personally felt Tithe offered me more protection against more things in the early game than Snare did. And that's what I was specifically looking at with Tithe, the first few turns of the game. To put it into perspective a little bit, technically Cryptic Command is a dead card from turns 1-3 in a fast format like Modern. Not debating the power level of the card at all, just trying to give an example of how I'm justifying playing Tithe.
That's what I theorised, but so far in testing, while Tithe isn't perfect, it has put in some good work for me as a supplemental counter for the early game.
Been testing 3 Blessed Alliance in the main too and I may just stick with it for a while. I do find my mana base is a little bit painful to support the red splash and I'm really noticing the effects of the extra BA, mainly in the increase of game time since it is stalling pretty hard lol.
WMMT5dx: Car - RK Coupe Track - Hakone Outbound
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Now THIS is a helpful mod post. /nosarcasmintended
Well, with the increased cantrips you can shave lands. I've been playing 24 and it feels real good in practice and goldfishing. So right there you're really only replacing 3 "cards" with the creature cyclers and many people here are all ready playing serum visions which I feel like is worse in the deck due to being sorcery (awkward with counters) and playing 8+ fetches as well as 2-4 pushes (these cards want you to do opposite things) which diminish the value of the scry 2 imho. When you view it that way, it's not that much of a deckbuilding cost. You can include 1 of the TT in those 3 cards as well so think of it like replacing 2 serum visions with 2 cyclers. In return you get a better CA engine that synergizes with snapcaster. I've felt that it's easier to put the game away going Scour > Snap/Scour than it is to wait until I have 8 mana to draw 1 Sphinx's Rev for example (The big problem for me with "stock" lists is how clunky it is). I definitely think it's underrated and it got a lot better with Amonkhet. You have Colonnades, Snaps, and cycling land to mitigate flooding (plus the cyclers are split creatures and I've won 2 games with them on like T18 before). So I haven't really been missing the clunkiness of the X-spells. I think it's something for people to try and test and be pleasantly surprised - or not, up to people if they feel like stock lists are the best we can do.
Yeah, Gideon is amazing. He's so versatile in a range of MU's and he's won me 4 games on his own. He's nigh unbeatable in Ux control mirrors, does work against Burn, tempo decks, fringey T3+ combo decks that you'll sometimes run up against which historically give the deck a fit, etc. Like I said, I've never not been happy to see him, but not sure you can play more than 2 since you don't want multiples clogging your hand (he also makes Push > Snap/Push better). Jura is interesting. How've you found him alongside Trials?
I tend not to respond to comments about subjects that I don't feel educated enough to speak on. Take, for example, Aegraen's Glassdust Hulk list. I like the concept, and don't really see a fault in it (I would personally add Academy Ruins to recur the cycle-able threats, which should be every control player's dream). However, I don't have the time I used to, so I haven't been able to test it myself (I'm also in the middle of 12 alterwork commissions, so yeah). Thus, I prefer to just sit back and listen to the results, since it's the best I can do.
Edit: For the sake of contributing to the constant debate of numbers, I've been on 3 Snapcasters in my list now for a while and I certainly don't see dropping the 3rd any time soon. With Push as a 3 of and Alliance as a 3/4 of in the 75, Snapcaster is just too valuable not to play more of. Also, I mentioned Clique in my previous post -- it's been great too. I cut Surgicals, if anyone's wondering, since dredge apparently sees no play at my LGS back home.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I fear cutting bolt that I may not be able to beat specific decks in game 1. If you could offer any alternative ways to win without bolt it would be appreciated as I just can't see beating some decks without bolts going to the face:
Time Walk - I have won game 1's off the back of snap/bolt to race before they gigadrowse > infinite turns. I fear without bolt I cannot win this?
BW Tokens - The tokens and Bitterblossom consistently clog up the board which makes it impossible to attack with my snaps and teferi. Bolt and Creeping Tar Pit has allowed me to ignore their infinite chump blockers and win the game. Without bolt, I am not sure how to win this?
Faeries - Similar to BW Tokens but even harder due to permission on their end. Bolt/snap/bolt has allowed me to win using their own Bitterblossom against them. WIthout bolt I don't think I can beat their leaner disruption and tempo.
Ux Mill - Bolt speeds up the clock and on more than 1 occasion I have snap/bolted for lethal on my upkeep with 0 cards left in my library. Without bolt I don't think I can race fast enough?
Lantern - Basically the same as Ux Mill.
Various combo - Tron, Valakut, Ad Nauseam, Restore Balance, Living End, Reanimator, Storm, Eggs etc. Bolt has won me SO many game 1's just by being able to punish some of their slower starts or just being able to out-tempo them and burn them out a turn or 2 before they go off. Without bolt, I don't feel as confident to race these decks in game 1.
Control mirror - Bolt has been good to force sub-optimal plays from the opponent. The chip damage does add up and force them to burn counters leaving my more important card adv engines to take over. Without bolt, I feel I lose that "X-Factor" in the mirror and will come down to more a 50/50 scenario. This is probably a weaker example though and I should be able to do without bolt here, but still.
Planeswalkers - Bolt gives me an out to planeswalkers game 1 without having to play more 'clunkier' stuff like Anguished, Cast Out or U End. Without Bolt, I can somewhat deal with walkers with tar pits and snaps, but bolt does this much more effectively.
Dredge - I have won my last 2 game 1's against Dredge. Bolt/Snap and Cryptic tapping allowed me to punish a slow start from them. Without Bolt I would of been dead if I didn't deal 3-6 damage to the face before they got to their untap step with a million creatures on the field. Not sure how I have chance to win game 1 without bolt?
These are just some examples of certain decks in game 1 that I am not sure how to beat without racing them with bolt. If you have any alternatives for bolt in above scenarios then please let me know as I am kind of stumped in that regard.
WMMT5dx: Car - RK Coupe Track - Hakone Outbound
Got my list together and takin' it for a ride
Unknown meta and I'm a beginner with the deck but I guess we have to start somewhere.
This is what I will be running:
4 Snapcaster Mage
Spells
4 Path to Exile
2 Fatal Push
2 Serum Visions
2 Logic Knot
4 Think Twice
2 Negate
4 Esper Charm
2 Sphinx's revelation
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Cryptic Command
2 Secure the Wastes
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless shrine
2 Watery Grave
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Gideon Jura
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Lingering Souls
2 Runed Halo
2 Dispel
Apparently, the meta of the store is changing quite regularly. My friends told me (they're on Ad Nauseam and Jund Death's Shadow) that there's a high change to encounter some Eldrazi decks, blue-based control (last week there was a UW Ojutai control build) but almost no one is playing Affinity.
I have two question:
- Is my sideboard reasonable?
- Should I play 4 Think twice? Maybe I could play one more Logic Knot or Serum Visions. I even thought about kicking SV out completely on go up on Logic and lands (Drowned Catacomb)...
Your questions show you're in the right mindset and the list seems like a perfectly reasonable starting point to determine what changes you prefer in your own list. (You can go back the last few pages to see how passionate we can be about our specific 75 and that's because we all have slightly different play styles and this deck has about a half-dozen flex slots in the MD and more in the board. If you don't like the feel of Visions, swap it out for a land and a business spell like Knot and go from there. See how you like the 9th fetch vs another Buddy land. I don't think 2/4/4 on Serum/TT/EC is too much per se, though. It all comes down to preference.
As for your board, I would suggest a couple of modifications. The AU is a fine catch all, but it could be a Celestial Purge, which handles most of the stuff we will want Unmaking for while still being relevant against Burn. The Gideon could be an Elspeth 6, which seems more hard-hitting in then matches where you want a PW. And I don't think Souls is enough of a silver bullet to warrant a one-of slot. Depending on the decks you would bring it in against, you could replace it with another removal spell, PW, even Timely Reinforcements and might get better results.
Have fun! As has been said before, there are no free wins with this deck, but once you know its ins and outs, you can take down almost anything.
Cryptic Command and Esper Charm have some many applications... but they're also difficult to "master".
Your right with Celestial Purge. I will put it instead of AU.
Big Elspeth is on my To-acquire .
Thing is, I still had the same problems when I had 4 Esper Charm. I also replaced 2 Charms with 2 K-Command which discards their hand as well, so I'm not really losing significant amount of discard either. Charm snap charm is good, but is very mana inefficient too, especially against the instant speed plays the better combo decks can make. And the longer you wait, so you don't get caught with your pants down tapping out, the more draw steps the combo player can get to sculpt their hand.
Also, games don't really play out like thatt mos tof the time. Faeries and tokens will have discard or counters to protect their 2 mana bomb. EsperCharm is very clunky in this situation.
Time Wslk will just wait until they have 5+ lands in play, since we can't pressure them, then gigadrowse (which cannot be countered) > GGS. Burning an Esper Charm on a dictate isnt a bad play, but its not doing much in the long run since they'll have enough time to sculpt their hand.
Charm is better vs Tron, Ad Naus, Valakut and I do try to actively discard with k-command and charm when given the chance.
Against Mill, Lantern, Dredge, Charm is laughable at best. I've won game 1's with bolts against this decks but I cannot say charm discard is of any use.
I getwhat your sayingabout E Charm vs combo = no cards in hand is how to win. But i think that is very generalised and there are other archetypes that may be listed under "combo or rogue"' like Lantern for example that Charm does nothing in discard mode. Which is why I think the only way to beat stuff like that in game 1 is to pressure fast and bolt/snap offers about a quarter of their life total's worth of damage while saving deck space. That is what my opinion is on this matter
WMMT5dx: Car - RK Coupe Track - Hakone Outbound
I may slowly edge toward replacing the bolts with pushes when I build up more confidence, but I still like the K-Commands, they are brutal with snapcaster and helps fight against heavy discard.
WMMT5dx: Car - RK Coupe Track - Hakone Outbound
My initial list was something along the lines of
4 serum visions
4 fatal push
2 path to exile
4 remand
4 snapcaster
4 as foretold
4 esper charm
3 electrolyze
2 kolaghan's command
3 cryptic command
The idea being to play like a wafo-tapa style 4c deck from ages ago, and just dig like hell through your deck--4 visions, 4 ancestral, 4 remand, 4 charm, 3 electrolyze, 3 cryptics means you're going to tear through the deck like crazy, and hopefully snaps + manlands can get the job done when you're also getting a mana advantage from the as foretolds. The problem was mana base issues in testing--4 colors is just too painful for a control deck in modern, and if you don't hit as foretold relatively early (by turn 5 or 6) the game is over because you can't out-tempo your opponent since your spells cost too much, and you can't bury them in card advantage fast enough to matter because there's no hard sweepers and you don't have powerful x-spells to take over the game.
When I get back around to it, I want to test with think twice because as foretold does let you cast flashback cards.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I don't think that works, actually. From the gatherer page for As Foretold: "If you cast a card for an alternative cost of 0 [using As Foretold], you can’t pay any other alternative costs, such as emerge costs." Flashback is an alternative cost, so you can't pay for the flashback AND use As Foretold's alternate cost per the rule quoted.
That said, As Foretold does have a lot of potential -- I keep thinking of it as an Aether Vial, but that's really misleading. For example, you get a spell EACH turn, meaning both yours and the opponent's. So you could use As Foretold to Ancestral Vision on your main and still hold up a free counterspell on the opponent's turn.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Considering brewing up something dumb, which is to say, a green splash. Probably only for the sideboard : Maelstrom pulse & thragtusk
It is a fun card but I do not see it in esper, rather jeskai restore balance or some UGx eternal command where they have something to abuse it (rather than using it).
I hate mono-blue Tron.
Esper draw go Control!
Twitch stream: http://www.twitch.tv/pimpdonny