Glad to see you're still alive SES! I always liked your suggestions and discussion. Now we just need Stokpile and the crew's all back together -- we'll be brewing Bant again in no time. ;D
I like the Lightmine Field tech, not thrilled that you have to remove it to swing for lethal tho. Not sure on Explosives in such large amounts, even if it is versatile.
Bloodrabbit, I told you were wrong wrong wrong because I have already proven my points with FACTs and solid arguments. Nontheless you dismiss everything and you are too stuborn to learn anything. You cannot put water in a full glass. The primer is not old and you already feel the urge to trash it. You said lingering souls was a good SB cards against control (and yet you say you never said it was a good card). You might just be a troll and I'm getting caught, it would be quite possible. But since you have decided to throw us back a couple of months/years behind, I'll just stay away from this thread for a while. You can tell em to play Lsouls, All kind of planeswalker, SV etc. You can even convince people to cut on ECharm, from now on I don't give a damn. I'll be back when the threads is gonna be exactly where it was 2 months and where we'll be able to work on new techs, not waste our time on old things we already ruled out. It's not because the meta is changing that the philosophical core of the deck changes. We want no sorcery appart from indispensable cards or excellent all around ones. We pack in no agression, we win because we don't lose. We do not side in cards for match up we are already favorable, but we work on our weaknesses (hello lingering souls). I could go on like this for an hour, but I have to give up, because no one is more deaf than soneone who don't want to listen. Have fun, and lets play Back to the Futur.
Small question: when you have a counter in hand against titanbreach, and they breach on your end step, do you counter it knowing that they will play the titan next turn anyway (let's assume you are tapped out or out of conuterspells)?
Anyone has input on this ? I think I should counter and not be scared to tap out since they usually play either breach or scapeshift, right ?
I agree with BloodyRabbit. It depends on what they have and what you have. In that situation you have to play to your outs. You can survive a couple of turns against a titan (depending on life total) but a scapeshift might be game over if they are playing both. That said if you are low on life and you have a cryptic you can counter draw to find another out. But like BloodyRabbit said you are basically dead if you are in that situation, you are just trying to maximize the small percent chance of finding an out.
On the lingering souls thing... (and god I hope that this doesn't turn into another argument but just some good discussion would be fine)
There was a lingering souls question on the last page of the thread and I think it does have 'some' advantage as SB tech against UW, grixis, jeskia or any of the more aggressive after boarding versions of control. Keep one half in the graveyard to flash back after a wrath, pressure them if they stumble, pressure walkers and lets you deal with all the flash creatures as they mostly have 1 toughness or just chump with them. All while still boarding out some removal. I don't think it is good tech against the more hard control decks like esper. Most of all though it is for opposing lingering souls decks and grindy match ups.
In no way is it necessary for our deck and I would guess it's a card that newer players would board into way to often, but does have value in the right meta.
On the lingering souls thing... (and god I hope that this doesn't turn into another argument but just some good discussion would be fine)
There was a lingering souls question on the last page of the thread and I think it does have 'some' advantage as SB tech against UW, grixis, jeskia or any of the more aggressive after boarding versions of control. Keep one half in the graveyard to flash back after a wrath, pressure them if they stumble, pressure walkers and lets you deal with all the flash creatures as they mostly have 1 toughness or just chump with them. All while still boarding out some removal. I don't think it is good tech against the more hard control decks like esper. Most of all though it is for opposing lingering souls decks and grindy match ups.
In no way is it necessary for our deck and I would guess it's a card that newer players would board into way to often, but does have value in the right meta.
When I joined this thread like 2 years ago I was playing four lingering souls in the board. I wouldn't do it now, but let me tell you -- it crushed BGx like nobody's business. I could see a souls or two as a late game threat against control/combo and other souls decks, but I don't really see it as being necessary.
On the lingering souls thing... (and god I hope that this doesn't turn into another argument but just some good discussion would be fine)
There was a lingering souls question on the last page of the thread and I think it does have 'some' advantage as SB tech against UW, grixis, jeskia or any of the more aggressive after boarding versions of control. Keep one half in the graveyard to flash back after a wrath, pressure them if they stumble, pressure walkers and lets you deal with all the flash creatures as they mostly have 1 toughness or just chump with them. All while still boarding out some removal. I don't think it is good tech against the more hard control decks like esper. Most of all though it is for opposing lingering souls decks and grindy match ups.
In no way is it necessary for our deck and I would guess it's a card that newer players would board into way to often, but does have value in the right meta.
When I joined this thread like 2 years ago I was playing four lingering souls in the board. I wouldn't do it now, but let me tell you -- it crushed BGx like nobody's business. I could see a souls or two as a late game threat against control/combo and other souls decks, but I don't really see it as being necessary.
Yes, I should have mentioned 2 of would be enough, but I agree completely.
I feel like souls is better in a tapout control shell. Abzan makes good use of them, but because we're trying to stay away from sorcery speed, they just don't cut it. Secure is nearly just as good as the first half(unless flying matters) for the same mana cost. I've been jamming this deck hard to get reacquainted with it, and I haven't found a match-up yet where I've felt like souls would have been a key card. The other thing too is that we only have 15 slots in our board, which is already super tight.
Here's what I've been running.
Speaking of tight boards, I'd love to squeeze another stony in there somehow, but haven't found the room yet.
Is Wrath relevant in meta currently? My only thing is Stubborn denial out of Deaths shadow and daze out of fish - heck even united will from the bant decks!!
Makes me sad to lose a wrath to a cheap counter.
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That IS very annoying. There was this stupid Temur list running around my old LGS that always had the t4 stubborn. That being said, I DO think the 4th Wrath effect in the board is fairly critical. I like your arguments for why it should be a verdict, but having just come from Abzan, I happen to know that Thrun is quite often in their boards. He's also mainboard in some of the RG ponza lists, gogari charm is still around sometimes and elves still exists, so I think I'll keep the actual wrath for now.
1. If you play N copies of serum visions and aren't cutting think twice, esper charm, or rev, that's N fewer "real spells" in your deck. Yes, lots of cantrips make it feel like your deck has more answers, but after a certain point you don't have enough slots to play all the answers you want. This is why I think SV is better (necessary even) on MODO because the meta is narrower and you need the consistency at finding the correct answers.
2. Application of mathematical analysis to modern as a format is sketchy at best; you need a much larger data set than we have for anything except some of the mainstays like burn, affinity, and traditional jund in order to say anything statistically significant. Otherwise, the best we have is the perception, experience and feelings of players. Many times we've had articles from pro's about PT testing where they played a set of matches between two decks, had a winning record but marked the matchup as unfavorable.
3. Very small differences can make a very big difference in matchup outcomes. I have a very easy time with valakut because of leylines. I have a poor matchup against bant eldrazi because I'm lighter on the removal. I play spell snares so my burn matchup is still pretty reasonable, but i struggle more against a lot of the chord/coco decks.
4. Primer rewrite that has been on hold for a few months is starting back up. Given that we've collectively narrowed down what spells we play (more individual variation on numbers or exact packages, but everyone seems to be on the same packages), I think some of the more esoteric parts of the primer can probably be suppressed.
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
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Do you guys keep 2-landers with a Think Twice? e.g.
A) 1 Glacial Fortess, 1 Fetch, 1 TT, 1 Logic Knot, 1 Verdict, 1 Cryptic, 1 Esper Charm
B) 1 Colonnade, 1 Fetch, 1 TT, 1 PtE, 1 Snap, 2 Cryptic
C) 1 Colonnade, 1 Fetch, 2 TT, 1 Logic Knot, 1 Verdict, 1 Cryptic
3 should be the minimum when you are in a blind match up but if you are in the right match up sometimes the risk could be worth it.
I personally never keep two lands unless I have a couple of answers and a serum visions. You have to think about what's the chance to get it by turn 3. so on the play you would have 2-3 draws (depending if you had to respond to something on turn 2) and on the draw it would be 3-4 (same thing depending if you have to respond). If you are just on TT and no visions then your chance to wiff is way to high (for me anyways). On 26 lands it's about a 55% chance to wiff on any given draw, so about a 17% chance to wiff on 3 draws and 10% to wiff on 4 draws.
I like the Lightmine Field tech, not thrilled that you have to remove it to swing for lethal tho. Not sure on Explosives in such large amounts, even if it is versatile.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I agree with BloodyRabbit. It depends on what they have and what you have. In that situation you have to play to your outs. You can survive a couple of turns against a titan (depending on life total) but a scapeshift might be game over if they are playing both. That said if you are low on life and you have a cryptic you can counter draw to find another out. But like BloodyRabbit said you are basically dead if you are in that situation, you are just trying to maximize the small percent chance of finding an out.
There was a lingering souls question on the last page of the thread and I think it does have 'some' advantage as SB tech against UW, grixis, jeskia or any of the more aggressive after boarding versions of control. Keep one half in the graveyard to flash back after a wrath, pressure them if they stumble, pressure walkers and lets you deal with all the flash creatures as they mostly have 1 toughness or just chump with them. All while still boarding out some removal. I don't think it is good tech against the more hard control decks like esper. Most of all though it is for opposing lingering souls decks and grindy match ups.
In no way is it necessary for our deck and I would guess it's a card that newer players would board into way to often, but does have value in the right meta.
When I joined this thread like 2 years ago I was playing four lingering souls in the board. I wouldn't do it now, but let me tell you -- it crushed BGx like nobody's business. I could see a souls or two as a late game threat against control/combo and other souls decks, but I don't really see it as being necessary.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Yes, I should have mentioned 2 of would be enough, but I agree completely.
Here's what I've been running.
Speaking of tight boards, I'd love to squeeze another stony in there somehow, but haven't found the room yet.
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Drowned Catacomb
4 Flooded Strand
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Shambling Vent
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
3 Snapcaster Mage
Sorcery 6
3 Serum Visions
3 Supreme Verdict
Instant 26
4 Cryptic Command
4 Esper Charm
2 Fatal Push
2 Logic Knot
2 Negate
4 Path to Exile
2 Secure the Wastes
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Think Twice
1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Negate
2 Runed Halo
1 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wrath of God
I'm excited to keep tuning this thing, it's feeling really good in the current meta.
Makes me sad to lose a wrath to a cheap counter.
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Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
W[mana]U[/mana]BEsper Control
1. If you play N copies of serum visions and aren't cutting think twice, esper charm, or rev, that's N fewer "real spells" in your deck. Yes, lots of cantrips make it feel like your deck has more answers, but after a certain point you don't have enough slots to play all the answers you want. This is why I think SV is better (necessary even) on MODO because the meta is narrower and you need the consistency at finding the correct answers.
2. Application of mathematical analysis to modern as a format is sketchy at best; you need a much larger data set than we have for anything except some of the mainstays like burn, affinity, and traditional jund in order to say anything statistically significant. Otherwise, the best we have is the perception, experience and feelings of players. Many times we've had articles from pro's about PT testing where they played a set of matches between two decks, had a winning record but marked the matchup as unfavorable.
3. Very small differences can make a very big difference in matchup outcomes. I have a very easy time with valakut because of leylines. I have a poor matchup against bant eldrazi because I'm lighter on the removal. I play spell snares so my burn matchup is still pretty reasonable, but i struggle more against a lot of the chord/coco decks.
4. Primer rewrite that has been on hold for a few months is starting back up. Given that we've collectively narrowed down what spells we play (more individual variation on numbers or exact packages, but everyone seems to be on the same packages), I think some of the more esoteric parts of the primer can probably be suppressed.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
You can also copy the URL and search Google for it plus your query.
3 should be the minimum when you are in a blind match up but if you are in the right match up sometimes the risk could be worth it.
I personally never keep two lands unless I have a couple of answers and a serum visions. You have to think about what's the chance to get it by turn 3. so on the play you would have 2-3 draws (depending if you had to respond to something on turn 2) and on the draw it would be 3-4 (same thing depending if you have to respond). If you are just on TT and no visions then your chance to wiff is way to high (for me anyways). On 26 lands it's about a 55% chance to wiff on any given draw, so about a 17% chance to wiff on 3 draws and 10% to wiff on 4 draws.
I would rather mull in that case.
A. Keep
B. Snap-keep
C. Keep
WMMT5dx: Car - RK Coupe Track - Hakone Outbound
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.