Most ad nauseum decks are playing lab mans now, so cutting verdicts over spot removal is more important.
Cutting 3 wraths, 2 push for 2 stony, 2 halo, 1 dispel is probably where you want to be.
Alot of Ad Nauseam lists are sideboarding cards like Grave Titan for a transformative sideboard against control/ BGx archetypes.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
The problem I've always been experiencing versus Ad Nauseam is that once they combo out, they've got Patrician's Scorn/Disenchant/echoing truth/tear with triple Pact of Negation (and probably a duress or 2) back-up. For that reason, I don't see the point of adding anything to combat post combo shenanigans.
In my opinion, our best bet is to max out on counterspells and discards while somehow put a fast clock: Vendilion Clique is the best of both world in that matter. Esper charming their hand is also great since they will tend to land drop as much as possible for an eventual counter war. Stony Silence is also great at slowing them down.
I probably don't even need to mention that Surgical Extraction on Ad Nauseam is lights out for them!
Hi everyone. Long time reader and fan of the thread -- you're all doing God's work.
I'm wondering what you all think of this list that just won a Modern Competitive League. Cuts the black, but otherwise very similar to the current Esper lists. How bad is it to lose Esper Charm and Fatal Push? Seems like it might have all the merits of Esper (minus Charm and Push), but with a great land disruption package and smoother mana base.
Eager to hear your thoughts!
Land disruption is probably the best form of control in the current meta. I play jeskai copycat with 4 seas and 1 tec edge and those cards are all stars in this meta. You sometimes get free wins with seas even against burn. The uw lists are doing something smart in using proactive disruption that turns into virtual card advantage by not allowing your oppoent to cast spells. It feels a lot like weisman style control which for the most part was a land destruction deck throughout most of its history.
Playing the land-disruption game is perfectly fine, and I agree about its provided value.
But only when you're associating the mana-denial to a proactive plan. UW does that (playing multiple threats which can be cast in the early turns) so it can capitalize the tempo-game when the opponent is short on colored mana. It's pretty much useless, for a deck like Esper, trying to mess with the opponent's mana base without being able to gain advantage from that. You'll stall him for one, two additional turns... then? If you're under a quick attack, you're already losing. If you're not, you're already winning.
Agreex which is why I play it in a combo deck. I was responding to the merits of the uw list that was asked about. Esper is a complete draw go deck and probably the best of its kind in the format. I just wanted to spread the word on how well spreading seas and land disruption in general is doing in modern. The uw shell is kind of raising up on modo.
The problem I've always been experiencing versus Ad Nauseam is that once they combo out, they've got Patrician's Scorn/Disenchant/echoing truth/tear with triple Pact of Negation (and probably a duress or 2) back-up. For that reason, I don't see the point of adding anything to combat post combo shenanigans.
In my opinion, our best bet is to max out on counterspells and discards while somehow put a fast clock: Vendilion Clique is the best of both world in that matter. Esper charming their hand is also great since they will tend to land drop as much as possible for an eventual counter war. Stony Silence is also great at slowing them down.
I probably don't even need to mention that Surgical Extraction on Ad Nauseam is lights out for them!
It's important to note though, while they do have answers for Enchantments, all of them require them to add more mana to their combo turn and puts pressure on their resources (even Patrician's Scoren will require an Angel's Grace at least). Having a Leyline/Halo forces them to take an addition 1-2 turns to get additional mana before they combo off, and you're spending the mana to cast that disruption in early turns where you don't have much interaction anyway. I agree that in terms of effectiveness, the enchantments are not the best because Ad Naus is ready and has answers to them, but depending on how many cards you need to side out against them (which is usually quite a lot), these are often going to be strict upgrades regardless of whether or not they represent a hard lock.
Any way that we can delay the combo so we have time to strip down their hand with Esper Charms seems like the correct way to approach the matchup (at least for Esper Draw-Go) than any kind of tempo plan. They need every single resource as well, lands + cards, so any time we're able to trade 2 for 1 is going to give a huge edge since they have no way to recoup the card advantage.
If you're already playing extractions, they do quite well here.
While I do agree trying to fight them after they've drawn their deck is not ideal, they usually only play 2-3 pact of negates, which isn't impossible to deal with, especially if we have negates/dispels.
I would prob pass on it, tho it might be a solid 2 off as it cycles later in the game A much better mana leak, I would rock it as 1 off no doubt to mind **** people to assume you have more..
This is my latest list, which I have put together with your precious comments. I am very happy with it. In a nutshell, it's 26 lands, 12 CA (4 think twice, 4 esper charm, 2 snapcaster, 2 revs) 11 removals (4 path, 3 push, 3 wrath, 1 blessed), 9 counters (4 cryptic command, 3 logic knot, 1 negate, 1 mana leak) and 2 secures.
Unless im massively wrong about the card (and Ive played it in cube, so Im not totally blind), theres no chance Id play miscalc.
Everyone thinking it will have any real impact in modern is delusional.
Grixis control doesnt even always play mana leak anymore, and instead of losing games because of a dead nmana leak, you can pay mana, cycle it away, and lose with a different dead card in hand.
The best it offers you is it sometimes digs towards removal. Its not actually a good counterspell.
Unless im massively wrong about the card (and Ive played it in cube, so Im not totally blind), theres no chance Id play miscalc.
Everyone thinking it will have any real impact in modern is delusional.
Grixis control doesn't even always play mana leak anymore, and instead of losing games because of a dead nmana leak, you can pay mana, cycle it away, and lose with a different dead card in hand.
The best it offers you is it sometimes digs towards removal. Its not actually a good counterspell.
The things is that Miscalculation is NOT Mana Leak. It can compare, but it's actually more similar to Remand in that it's early interaction that goes dead later on, but at least cycles. However, to me Miscalc has 2 strict upgrades on Remand:
1) It can actually trade with spells. Remand can never do that (barring flashbacked spells), but Remand always cantrips. Remand is always bad against cheap spells or spells that are must-answer threats (since you don't always have the answer for the next cast), but Miscalc can actually answer a T2 Goblin Guide or a T3 Lili -- that's a huge difference.
2) Miscalc ALWAYS cycles if you can pay the 2. Remand is always terrible late game if they don't have anything, since you would want to cantrip if they didn't do anything, but you don't have that ability.
miscalculation isn't good in draw-go. It's much better in a tapout style deck, or something like grixis delver, because you can cycle it to find more business later on.
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Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
miscalculation isn't good in draw-go. It's much better in a tapout style deck, or something like grixis delver, because you can cycle it to find more business later on.
I may be biased, because I only just saw Miscalc for the first time the other day and thought it was pretty decent, but can you go into more detail as to why miscalc is a tap-out card, not a draw-go card? You literally have to hold up mana to use its primary function in a tap-out list, which is against the whole point of, ya'know, tapping out. And it's not like Esper Draw-Go doesn't have "business" to dig for -- Cryptic, Verdict, better answers, land drops, etc. It just seems to me that it's much more of a Draw-Go card: "I'm holding up this answer, but if you don't play into it, I can just cycle it away for something more potent." (and Snapcaster it back!)
Edit: Of course, this is all theory, considering Miscalc isn't Modern legal. =D
I think that if Miscalculation was to be modern legal, it does deserve some consideration for 1-2 slots at least. Also, while you can compare it to remand, I think the more apt comparison is to Logic Knot. In the early game, they both fill the same role by giving interaction T2-5ish for 2 Mana (Miscalc is even easier on the mana base here) that will permanently answer a card. The difference is of course that in the late game the cards behave different. Logic Knot maintains it's use as a counter by scaling with your mana, whereas Miscalculation will simply swap for another card. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and I think if a deck wants to play Logic Knot, it should at least consider Miscalculation.
It's easy to under evaluate a card that has 2 mediocre modes, but gives you flexibility and options. Of course, just cantripping is quite a bad option, but nonetheless on a single card, Slightly worse mana leak and slightly worse Think Twice is still going to be better than you might think.
Note that my point isn't necessarily that Miscalculation would be a card Esper Draw-Go wants, but that I think it's wrong to write it off immediately based on the fact that at face value, it looks like a bad card.
I think that if Miscalculation was to be modern legal, it does deserve some consideration for 1-2 slots at least. Also, while you can compare it to remand, I think the more apt comparison is to Logic Knot. In the early game, they both fill the same role by giving interaction T2-5ish for 2 Mana (Miscalc is even easier on the mana base here) that will permanently answer a card. The difference is of course that in the late game the cards behave different. Logic Knot maintains it's use as a counter by scaling with your mana, whereas Miscalculation will simply swap for another card. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and I think if a deck wants to play Logic Knot, it should at least consider Miscalculation.
It's easy to under evaluate a card that has 2 mediocre modes, but gives you flexibility and options. Of course, just cantripping is quite a bad option, but nonetheless on a single card, Slightly worse mana leak and slightly worse Think Twice is still going to be better than you might think.
Note that my point isn't necessarily that Miscalculation would be a card Esper Draw-Go wants, but that I think it's wrong to write it off immediately based on the fact that at face value, it looks like a bad card.
I think you're over estimating the strength of miscalc. There's a good chance I pass on it in cube. Modern is a much more efficient format meaning the card goes dead way sooner. I realize 2 mana to cycle it is okay and effectively having half of think twice stapled to the card, but I'd rather play another hard counter or another effect.
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Cutting 3 wraths, 2 push for 2 stony, 2 halo, 1 dispel is probably where you want to be.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Stony Silence is very good
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
In my opinion, our best bet is to max out on counterspells and discards while somehow put a fast clock: Vendilion Clique is the best of both world in that matter. Esper charming their hand is also great since they will tend to land drop as much as possible for an eventual counter war. Stony Silence is also great at slowing them down.
I probably don't even need to mention that Surgical Extraction on Ad Nauseam is lights out for them!
EDIT: Despite all the efforts we may put, Boseiju, who shelters all and gigadrowse are almost unbeatable for us...
Land disruption is probably the best form of control in the current meta. I play jeskai copycat with 4 seas and 1 tec edge and those cards are all stars in this meta. You sometimes get free wins with seas even against burn. The uw lists are doing something smart in using proactive disruption that turns into virtual card advantage by not allowing your oppoent to cast spells. It feels a lot like weisman style control which for the most part was a land destruction deck throughout most of its history.
Agreex which is why I play it in a combo deck. I was responding to the merits of the uw list that was asked about. Esper is a complete draw go deck and probably the best of its kind in the format. I just wanted to spread the word on how well spreading seas and land disruption in general is doing in modern. The uw shell is kind of raising up on modo.
It's important to note though, while they do have answers for Enchantments, all of them require them to add more mana to their combo turn and puts pressure on their resources (even Patrician's Scoren will require an Angel's Grace at least). Having a Leyline/Halo forces them to take an addition 1-2 turns to get additional mana before they combo off, and you're spending the mana to cast that disruption in early turns where you don't have much interaction anyway. I agree that in terms of effectiveness, the enchantments are not the best because Ad Naus is ready and has answers to them, but depending on how many cards you need to side out against them (which is usually quite a lot), these are often going to be strict upgrades regardless of whether or not they represent a hard lock.
Any way that we can delay the combo so we have time to strip down their hand with Esper Charms seems like the correct way to approach the matchup (at least for Esper Draw-Go) than any kind of tempo plan. They need every single resource as well, lands + cards, so any time we're able to trade 2 for 1 is going to give a huge edge since they have no way to recoup the card advantage.
While I do agree trying to fight them after they've drawn their deck is not ideal, they usually only play 2-3 pact of negates, which isn't impossible to deal with, especially if we have negates/dispels.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Esper draw go Control!
Twitch stream: http://www.twitch.tv/pimpdonny
This is my latest list, which I have put together with your precious comments. I am very happy with it. In a nutshell, it's 26 lands, 12 CA (4 think twice, 4 esper charm, 2 snapcaster, 2 revs) 11 removals (4 path, 3 push, 3 wrath, 1 blessed), 9 counters (4 cryptic command, 3 logic knot, 1 negate, 1 mana leak) and 2 secures.
https://deckstats.net/decks/20993/670566-esper-control/en
However I would like to include one more snapcaster. Any suggestion as to what I should cut for it ?
Everyone thinking it will have any real impact in modern is delusional.
Grixis control doesnt even always play mana leak anymore, and instead of losing games because of a dead nmana leak, you can pay mana, cycle it away, and lose with a different dead card in hand.
The best it offers you is it sometimes digs towards removal. Its not actually a good counterspell.
The things is that Miscalculation is NOT Mana Leak. It can compare, but it's actually more similar to Remand in that it's early interaction that goes dead later on, but at least cycles. However, to me Miscalc has 2 strict upgrades on Remand:
1) It can actually trade with spells. Remand can never do that (barring flashbacked spells), but Remand always cantrips. Remand is always bad against cheap spells or spells that are must-answer threats (since you don't always have the answer for the next cast), but Miscalc can actually answer a T2 Goblin Guide or a T3 Lili -- that's a huge difference.
2) Miscalc ALWAYS cycles if you can pay the 2. Remand is always terrible late game if they don't have anything, since you would want to cantrip if they didn't do anything, but you don't have that ability.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I may be biased, because I only just saw Miscalc for the first time the other day and thought it was pretty decent, but can you go into more detail as to why miscalc is a tap-out card, not a draw-go card? You literally have to hold up mana to use its primary function in a tap-out list, which is against the whole point of, ya'know, tapping out.
Edit: Of course, this is all theory, considering Miscalc isn't Modern legal. =D
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
It's easy to under evaluate a card that has 2 mediocre modes, but gives you flexibility and options. Of course, just cantripping is quite a bad option, but nonetheless on a single card, Slightly worse mana leak and slightly worse Think Twice is still going to be better than you might think.
Note that my point isn't necessarily that Miscalculation would be a card Esper Draw-Go wants, but that I think it's wrong to write it off immediately based on the fact that at face value, it looks like a bad card.
I think you're over estimating the strength of miscalc. There's a good chance I pass on it in cube. Modern is a much more efficient format meaning the card goes dead way sooner. I realize 2 mana to cycle it is okay and effectively having half of think twice stapled to the card, but I'd rather play another hard counter or another effect.