I’m planning on playing this deck at scg Columbus. It seems good with all the big mana and greedy manabases running around right now. My biggest issue is that e tron is overly popular in my area. The e tron matchup has been tough and I decided on putting a few bridges in the sideboard, even though I’ve never been a fan of the bridge versions of the deck. I think it should improve the matchup a good bit.
Here is my current list for reference.
Modern r/w prison
If E Tron is about then Bridge main would be more appropriate, surely?
I would play 4 Leyline or none, the Leylines are best turn zero, having both anti-combo, burn and discard functions, with the second two requiring it at turn zero to be really effective, and it's only about 38 pc chance of one in the opener with 4. With three that number goes down significantly. I can see Leyline of the void being played as a 3 of in decks that run it, but Sanctity feels like a 4 or none card. If I had just 3 slots I would run Runed Halo over it. As it is I think you can squeeze 4 in.
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Ok guys... I got an upcoming serious tournament against my local meta soon, and I need some advice.
I've decided to go with my old Landkill-list, and need some suggestions for what I'm about to face (I already know who I'm gonna face as it's a top-8 for our seasonal league in modern).
------------------------
This is my current list:
3 Goblin Dark-Dweller
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Suppression Field
4 Boom/Bust
4 Molten Rain
4 Stone Rain
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Rugged Prairie
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Gemstone Caverns
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Mountain
-----------------------
Nothing fancy or special there really.. and I'm not too concerned about my maindeck as It's been proven to work over and over again.
But, the sideboard is what I'm debating right now, and here it is:
-----------------------
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Shattering Spree
2 Runed Halo
2 Lightning Helix
2 Boil
-----------------------
And that brings us to what I think/know what I'm gonna face, and how I think about my cards right now...
1. Elves (I feel kinda safe agains this. It's a problem that they don't really need their lands to pay for upkeep and/or attacks, but my 3 maindeck Anger, and Magus makes this an OK matchup. The 2 Linvala and extra Anger in SB is especially for this matchup.)
2. Grixis Delver (My deck doesn't like blue, especially decks with counterspells. The good thing is that I'm facing a tempo-deck, not the control version. Still I am unsure about this matchup, and I could use something extra in SB to make it better - Thinking about squeezing 2 Ricochet Traps into it, cuz it's amazing against blue decks.)
3. Taking Turns (This matchup is bad, really bad. Counterspells combined with a deck that could draw extra lands and doesn't get affected by Suppression Field and Magus is a bad matchup. Boils are for this matchup, but I think that Ricochet Trap could work against this also.
4. Eldrazi & Taxes (This is also kind of a bad matchup, as they put early pressure into the table, and can take some of my important cards from hand. Thalia is probably the worst card for me to handle early game, but I at least hope that Ghostly Prison and Suppression Field can do some good against their Aether Vial and early beaters. Dunno how to increase my matchup against this, really...
5. Bant Spirits (I think my friend is gonna play this list, but I'm not sure. Haven't faced it with my Landkill but I think I have a fair chance. Anger is a keycard here, and I need to be aware of Spell Queller. I still think that I can face this deck with an OK winrate.
6. Living End (I know I should include Rest in Peace for this matchup, but I'm not sure if it's worth it... I can usually handle their boardstates with Ghostly Prison and Magus, but sometimes they are just too quick. Also, Suppression field is insanely good against their deck, and so is Chalice maindeck.
Any ideas/suggestions? I'll gladly hear you all out about what you think
It's not a fast deck at all. It's a stax landkill list that locks my opponent out of the game and wins with small beatings.
The only cards that are commonly played that can kill my wincons (Magus & Goblins) are Path, and that's one of the reasons you see 4 Chalices and no 1-drops from my side.
Planeswalkers are NOT an option in this kind of deck, as they are amazingly bad with 4 Suppression Fields in maindeck.
As I said, my maindeck can handle the current meta very well, and it's been taking several top-8 places the last years or so. It's the sideboard against the decks I mentioned I need some help with
Some players in the rumor mill thread are making a fairly typical mistake of comparing it directly against blood moon. This is not a good comparison. This card hits from a few slightly different angles than blood moon and the fact that it's a cantrip not only reduces the pain of multiples, it also takes the double drawback of blood moon - that being card disadvantage and loss of tempo - and reduces it to just a loss of tempo.
Blood Moon is still more absolute against certain decks but Blood Sun appears to hit enough cards. Not to mention that it opens up lots of new land possibilities. City of Brass, Karoo lands, early lands, tri-colors, maybe even guildgates. Just dont run fetches.
I liked the new wrath at first, but a 4/5 Tarmagoyf still kills you really fast. I don't think we can build with it. It might have uses in the sideboard I guess...
Ok guys... I got an upcoming serious tournament against my local meta soon, and I need some advice.
I've decided to go with my old Landkill-list, and need some suggestions for what I'm about to face (I already know who I'm gonna face as it's a top-8 for our seasonal league in modern).
------------------------
This is my current list:
3 Goblin Dark-Dweller
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Suppression Field
4 Boom/Bust
4 Molten Rain
4 Stone Rain
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Rugged Prairie
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Gemstone Caverns
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Mountain
-----------------------
Nothing fancy or special there really.. and I'm not too concerned about my maindeck as It's been proven to work over and over again.
But, the sideboard is what I'm debating right now, and here it is:
-----------------------
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Shattering Spree
2 Runed Halo
2 Lightning Helix
2 Boil
-----------------------
And that brings us to what I think/know what I'm gonna face, and how I think about my cards right now...
1. Elves (I feel kinda safe agains this. It's a problem that they don't really need their lands to pay for upkeep and/or attacks, but my 3 maindeck Anger, and Magus makes this an OK matchup. The 2 Linvala and extra Anger in SB is especially for this matchup.)
2. Grixis Delver (My deck doesn't like blue, especially decks with counterspells. The good thing is that I'm facing a tempo-deck, not the control version. Still I am unsure about this matchup, and I could use something extra in SB to make it better - Thinking about squeezing 2 Ricochet Traps into it, cuz it's amazing against blue decks.)
3. Taking Turns (This matchup is bad, really bad. Counterspells combined with a deck that could draw extra lands and doesn't get affected by Suppression Field and Magus is a bad matchup. Boils are for this matchup, but I think that Ricochet Trap could work against this also.
4. Eldrazi & Taxes (This is also kind of a bad matchup, as they put early pressure into the table, and can take some of my important cards from hand. Thalia is probably the worst card for me to handle early game, but I at least hope that Ghostly Prison and Suppression Field can do some good against their Aether Vial and early beaters. Dunno how to increase my matchup against this, really...
5. Bant Spirits (I think my friend is gonna play this list, but I'm not sure. Haven't faced it with my Landkill but I think I have a fair chance. Anger is a keycard here, and I need to be aware of Spell Queller. I still think that I can face this deck with an OK winrate.
6. Living End (I know I should include Rest in Peace for this matchup, but I'm not sure if it's worth it... I can usually handle their boardstates with Ghostly Prison and Magus, but sometimes they are just too quick. Also, Suppression field is insanely good against their deck, and so is Chalice maindeck.
Any ideas/suggestions? I'll gladly hear you all out about what you think
Honestly, you have all the right cards in the 75.
I run a slightly different mix from main to side, I often main deck Halo and Linvala main, but that is because I like Halo for its applications in combo matches and Death's Shadow. I think the only real difference between your list and mine is that you have an emphasis on fast mana, whereas I don't, and thus I run a slightly fuller two slot (my Anger slot are not there basically, I am on Halo/Helix). The one thing I would question is the absence of Mindcensor, which is super awesome with Supp field as they build up mana to crack fetches and can't do anything when you drop it, whilst it gives some instant action against planeswalkers, and protection against chord of calling decks including Elves. I do run a Crucible but I have always thought it to taste.
But overall you are very similar to where I am, which has worked well for me for a long time over several metas. You say it works well for you, and I believe that given my experiences.
I do think you are slightly overdo-ing dark dweller main- I think it is a two of at most, and with Elves about I would be tempted to run linvala main in one of the slots as it hurts them.
In my experience what you want to play combo decks that are not counter heavy.
for what you list...
Elves I find hard with fewer angers. I would say hit a linvala main over darkdweller iii
Grixis delver- you should be fine but helix could be sudden shock if you know burn won't be about. I think you will be ok against it, but they can now push where they used to have difficulty with magus. Linvala matches up well with Delver, another reason to consider it.
Turns- - Boil, Boil, Boil, basically. You are obviously going to find it hard, but Defense Grid can help you slip past counters, you need 3 boil, 2 defense grid I would have thought- minumum. If you remove a dweller and play linvala maain you can squueze in grid 1
Eldrazi and taxes- this should be ok for you. I own both decks.
I think that sudden shock over helix may help here as they can't save whatever it is they want. Chalice is only ok here.
SF is great against vial and Ghostly/Magus is super great. I lost to this last time I played it, but it was one of those draw 6 stuck o two land games/mull to 4. I won the friendlies of course. It is normally fine, although discard is a pain.
Bant spirits I have never played.
LE- you should be fine. SF is good vs cycling and fetches, plus if they run F mage it hurts that too. Ghostly/Magus is key. You have to win that.
If you ran stony silence in the board (which is excellent against a lot of decks you have not listed) you won't gain much against the above decks- most RW decks of this sort run it but your meta decks above don't need it. It is essential for Ad Nauseam's rocks and Affinity, of course.
on blood sun.....
hmmm
yes, it could do a lot for us, but it depends on what prison you are on
sun and moon- obviously not much going on there with moon down, which actually color screws people
bridge/planeswalker decks- ditto really
landkill- switches off temple of triumph, but makes it come in untapped, switches g quarter but switches off their fetches - I may try it here. If I did I would not run crucible.....
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The 3 cmc Wrath is really great actuslly! Makes all the spot removal that much better. It also means any of the Walker builds specifically Gideon and/or use of Heart of Kiran finishers let you wipe the board and then stomp face a few turns at the end. About any of the Gideon’s will keep whatever they choose to save busy as you tighten your locks or nooses.
Blood Sun let’s not underestimate the flavor win!
Blood Sun, while not winning against Tron turns off every utility land.
I used to include Aven Mindcensor in my maindeck, and also had a one-off of Crucible too, but felt they mostly suited the sideboard instead and Crucible felt winmore.
Goblin Dark-Dwellers are pretty much my only wincon, and I sometimes even use them to cast Anger of the Gods when entering, to clean the board and start the beating. I think I'll stick to the three I have, as it usually takes some time to find me one anyway.
Btw, one of the reasons I play Chalice is of course to shut alot of cards off for my opponent, but it also protects Both Goblins and Maguses from pretty much every kind of removal in the format (not counting Terminate here...).
The 2 Linvala are actually there just because of Elves, but I feel them being a bit too slow. I have an idea to change my fourth Anger in the SB to a Pyroclasm, and add another one. I think they could actually work good against both Elves and a couple of creatures in Taxes, don't you think?
Also, as I I'm not facing anything artifact-heavy in the top-8 now, I'm thinking of changing my 2 Shattering Spree for something else (a ricochet trap and a boil comes to mind).
Problem is the new Sun and the old Moon don't really synergise especially well.
Still I am sure it will make some RW lists somewhere.
The hardest match up for RW prisons, with the exception of those packing/focused on landkill, is often old style Tron- you turn off Tron, they durdle to 5 and O-stone, or 7 and All is dust, or * and Ugin. I would guess that the Sun increases the chances of RG tron being played, as cutting off GQ etc. is very attractive in a cantrip heavy Tron deck.
Slightly off topic, but I never really liked the name "Sun and Moon" because the Sun was rarely played, and when it was it was often Sideboard only, and because many people varied away from the lists to incorporate tech from the old Bridge versions even when Todd S was playing it. They would do very well but the deck functions differently with Bridges or with fewer chalices. You say "Sun and Moon" and people expected the Todd list +/- 1 or 2 cards. You say RW prison and they expect Moon based PW heavy control with or without bridges, most likely with Chalices- which would often be 8-10 cards away from the "standard" list, but functioning in a similar manner. They may even think of something with landkill if they really knew their SCG history and lists. The name was very specific for what was a spectrum of decks. RW Prisons is the equivalent of "burn" or "zoo", whereas Sun and Moon is a bit more specific.
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Running Sun plus Moon at the same time could completely wreck a few decks. It might be a way to improve a few matchups by a few percent.
If you like the new wrath then I think you're probably gonna want to run one of the variants that uses wall of omens and leads into Resto angel or kiki jiki.
i just have a very simple question.Is there a reason why trinisphere is not just run main board at this point? there are very few cards that are under 3 and even if its argument of chalice, isnt trinishphere just as back breaking as a chalice for 1?
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i just have a very simple question.Is there a reason why trinisphere is not just run main board at this point? there are very few cards that are under 3 and even if its argument of chalice, isnt trinishphere just as back breaking as a chalice for 1?
The difference between the two is one turn, which is an order of magnitude for the strategies this deck tries to hose. Requiring one Simian Spirit Guide to come down turn 1 (and acceptably turn 2 on the play against certain decks) versus needing two is huge.
Trinisphere is better in RW landkill lists as a one of.
It beats a lot of cheat decks.
I cannot think why go long decks that do not pressure the volume of mana, like sun and moon, would main deck it.
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Here is my current list for reference.
Modern r/w prison
Lands: (24)
9x Plains
1x Mountain
4x Arid Mesa
2x Rugged Prairie
2x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple of Triumph
2x Gemstone Caverns
Planeswalkers: (11)
1x Ajani Vengeant
2x gideon of the trials
4x Nahiri, the harbinger
2x Gideon Jura
2x Chandra, torch of defiance
Creatures: (5)
4x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Emrakul, The aeons torn
Enchantments: (6)
2x Cast Out
4x Blood Moon
Artifacts: (4)
4x Chalice of the void
Spells: (10)
2x Anger of the gods
1x Sweltering Suns
2x wrath of god
1x Day of judgment
4x Lightning Helix
Sideboard: (15)
2x Rest In Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Damping matrix
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x rule of law
1x Elspeth, Suns Champion
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Stone rain
I would play 4 Leyline or none, the Leylines are best turn zero, having both anti-combo, burn and discard functions, with the second two requiring it at turn zero to be really effective, and it's only about 38 pc chance of one in the opener with 4. With three that number goes down significantly. I can see Leyline of the void being played as a 3 of in decks that run it, but Sanctity feels like a 4 or none card. If I had just 3 slots I would run Runed Halo over it. As it is I think you can squeeze 4 in.
I've decided to go with my old Landkill-list, and need some suggestions for what I'm about to face (I already know who I'm gonna face as it's a top-8 for our seasonal league in modern).
------------------------
This is my current list:
3 Goblin Dark-Dweller
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Suppression Field
4 Boom/Bust
4 Molten Rain
4 Stone Rain
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Rugged Prairie
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Gemstone Caverns
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Mountain
-----------------------
Nothing fancy or special there really.. and I'm not too concerned about my maindeck as It's been proven to work over and over again.
But, the sideboard is what I'm debating right now, and here it is:
-----------------------
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Shattering Spree
2 Runed Halo
2 Lightning Helix
2 Boil
-----------------------
And that brings us to what I think/know what I'm gonna face, and how I think about my cards right now...
1. Elves (I feel kinda safe agains this. It's a problem that they don't really need their lands to pay for upkeep and/or attacks, but my 3 maindeck Anger, and Magus makes this an OK matchup. The 2 Linvala and extra Anger in SB is especially for this matchup.)
2. Grixis Delver (My deck doesn't like blue, especially decks with counterspells. The good thing is that I'm facing a tempo-deck, not the control version. Still I am unsure about this matchup, and I could use something extra in SB to make it better - Thinking about squeezing 2 Ricochet Traps into it, cuz it's amazing against blue decks.)
3. Taking Turns (This matchup is bad, really bad. Counterspells combined with a deck that could draw extra lands and doesn't get affected by Suppression Field and Magus is a bad matchup. Boils are for this matchup, but I think that Ricochet Trap could work against this also.
4. Eldrazi & Taxes (This is also kind of a bad matchup, as they put early pressure into the table, and can take some of my important cards from hand. Thalia is probably the worst card for me to handle early game, but I at least hope that Ghostly Prison and Suppression Field can do some good against their Aether Vial and early beaters. Dunno how to increase my matchup against this, really...
5. Bant Spirits (I think my friend is gonna play this list, but I'm not sure. Haven't faced it with my Landkill but I think I have a fair chance. Anger is a keycard here, and I need to be aware of Spell Queller. I still think that I can face this deck with an OK winrate.
6. Living End (I know I should include Rest in Peace for this matchup, but I'm not sure if it's worth it... I can usually handle their boardstates with Ghostly Prison and Magus, but sometimes they are just too quick. Also, Suppression field is insanely good against their deck, and so is Chalice maindeck.
Any ideas/suggestions? I'll gladly hear you all out about what you think
It's not a fast deck at all. It's a stax landkill list that locks my opponent out of the game and wins with small beatings.
The only cards that are commonly played that can kill my wincons (Magus & Goblins) are Path, and that's one of the reasons you see 4 Chalices and no 1-drops from my side.
Planeswalkers are NOT an option in this kind of deck, as they are amazingly bad with 4 Suppression Fields in maindeck.
As I said, my maindeck can handle the current meta very well, and it's been taking several top-8 places the last years or so. It's the sideboard against the decks I mentioned I need some help with
Oh dear. The cards are calling again.
Blood Moon is still more absolute against certain decks but Blood Sun appears to hit enough cards. Not to mention that it opens up lots of new land possibilities. City of Brass, Karoo lands, early lands, tri-colors, maybe even guildgates. Just dont run fetches.
I liked the new wrath at first, but a 4/5 Tarmagoyf still kills you really fast. I don't think we can build with it. It might have uses in the sideboard I guess...
Honestly, you have all the right cards in the 75.
I run a slightly different mix from main to side, I often main deck Halo and Linvala main, but that is because I like Halo for its applications in combo matches and Death's Shadow. I think the only real difference between your list and mine is that you have an emphasis on fast mana, whereas I don't, and thus I run a slightly fuller two slot (my Anger slot are not there basically, I am on Halo/Helix). The one thing I would question is the absence of Mindcensor, which is super awesome with Supp field as they build up mana to crack fetches and can't do anything when you drop it, whilst it gives some instant action against planeswalkers, and protection against chord of calling decks including Elves. I do run a Crucible but I have always thought it to taste.
But overall you are very similar to where I am, which has worked well for me for a long time over several metas. You say it works well for you, and I believe that given my experiences.
I do think you are slightly overdo-ing dark dweller main- I think it is a two of at most, and with Elves about I would be tempted to run linvala main in one of the slots as it hurts them.
In my experience what you want to play combo decks that are not counter heavy.
for what you list...
Elves I find hard with fewer angers. I would say hit a linvala main over darkdweller iii
Grixis delver- you should be fine but helix could be sudden shock if you know burn won't be about. I think you will be ok against it, but they can now push where they used to have difficulty with magus. Linvala matches up well with Delver, another reason to consider it.
Turns- - Boil, Boil, Boil, basically. You are obviously going to find it hard, but Defense Grid can help you slip past counters, you need 3 boil, 2 defense grid I would have thought- minumum. If you remove a dweller and play linvala maain you can squueze in grid 1
Eldrazi and taxes- this should be ok for you. I own both decks.
I think that sudden shock over helix may help here as they can't save whatever it is they want. Chalice is only ok here.
SF is great against vial and Ghostly/Magus is super great. I lost to this last time I played it, but it was one of those draw 6 stuck o two land games/mull to 4. I won the friendlies of course. It is normally fine, although discard is a pain.
Bant spirits I have never played.
LE- you should be fine. SF is good vs cycling and fetches, plus if they run F mage it hurts that too. Ghostly/Magus is key. You have to win that.
If you ran stony silence in the board (which is excellent against a lot of decks you have not listed) you won't gain much against the above decks- most RW decks of this sort run it but your meta decks above don't need it. It is essential for Ad Nauseam's rocks and Affinity, of course.
Summary of suggestions
- 1 dweller + 1 linvala
Board-
-1 helix + 1 sudden shock
-1 linvala + 1 defense grid or boil
and if you are feeling brave -1 anger + 1 defense grid in the side,
and - 1 dweller main (to just 1) + 1 A mindcensor main
hmmm
yes, it could do a lot for us, but it depends on what prison you are on
sun and moon- obviously not much going on there with moon down, which actually color screws people
bridge/planeswalker decks- ditto really
landkill- switches off temple of triumph, but makes it come in untapped, switches g quarter but switches off their fetches - I may try it here. If I did I would not run crucible.....
Blood Sun let’s not underestimate the flavor win!
Blood Sun, while not winning against Tron turns off every utility land.
I used to include Aven Mindcensor in my maindeck, and also had a one-off of Crucible too, but felt they mostly suited the sideboard instead and Crucible felt winmore.
Goblin Dark-Dwellers are pretty much my only wincon, and I sometimes even use them to cast Anger of the Gods when entering, to clean the board and start the beating. I think I'll stick to the three I have, as it usually takes some time to find me one anyway.
Btw, one of the reasons I play Chalice is of course to shut alot of cards off for my opponent, but it also protects Both Goblins and Maguses from pretty much every kind of removal in the format (not counting Terminate here...).
The 2 Linvala are actually there just because of Elves, but I feel them being a bit too slow. I have an idea to change my fourth Anger in the SB to a Pyroclasm, and add another one. I think they could actually work good against both Elves and a couple of creatures in Taxes, don't you think?
Also, as I I'm not facing anything artifact-heavy in the top-8 now, I'm thinking of changing my 2 Shattering Spree for something else (a ricochet trap and a boil comes to mind).
Still I am sure it will make some RW lists somewhere.
The hardest match up for RW prisons, with the exception of those packing/focused on landkill, is often old style Tron- you turn off Tron, they durdle to 5 and O-stone, or 7 and All is dust, or * and Ugin. I would guess that the Sun increases the chances of RG tron being played, as cutting off GQ etc. is very attractive in a cantrip heavy Tron deck.
Slightly off topic, but I never really liked the name "Sun and Moon" because the Sun was rarely played, and when it was it was often Sideboard only, and because many people varied away from the lists to incorporate tech from the old Bridge versions even when Todd S was playing it. They would do very well but the deck functions differently with Bridges or with fewer chalices. You say "Sun and Moon" and people expected the Todd list +/- 1 or 2 cards. You say RW prison and they expect Moon based PW heavy control with or without bridges, most likely with Chalices- which would often be 8-10 cards away from the "standard" list, but functioning in a similar manner. They may even think of something with landkill if they really knew their SCG history and lists. The name was very specific for what was a spectrum of decks. RW Prisons is the equivalent of "burn" or "zoo", whereas Sun and Moon is a bit more specific.
Running Sun plus Moon at the same time could completely wreck a few decks. It might be a way to improve a few matchups by a few percent.
If you like the new wrath then I think you're probably gonna want to run one of the variants that uses wall of omens and leads into Resto angel or kiki jiki.
Team trio always makes it hard on getting results but still sounds great to make 6-2!
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My Decks that have been BANNED
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The difference between the two is one turn, which is an order of magnitude for the strategies this deck tries to hose. Requiring one Simian Spirit Guide to come down turn 1 (and acceptably turn 2 on the play against certain decks) versus needing two is huge.
It beats a lot of cheat decks.
I cannot think why go long decks that do not pressure the volume of mana, like sun and moon, would main deck it.