I came up with a pretty interesting build. It's a bit creature focused again. I wanted to use a few of the interesting new sweepers, so this one is a sweeper deck that wins slowly via Planeswalkers. I've also got my normal Planeswalker protection package.
Thraben Inspector and Wall of Omens are early game card advantage. You're usually not making impact plays on those turns anyways, so I like to throw a body down and draw a card. Spellskite protects Planeswalkers in two different ways.
Dusk // Dawn - Dusk is a one-sided Wrath of God (doesn't hit your creatures) on the first cast. Dawn returns the dead creatures to your hand and allows you to cast them a second time for more card draw. Sweltering Suns is a decent answer to the "go-wide" creature decks, and can be cycled when it's not necessary. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a strong answer to big baddies. Despite the limitations of each sweeper, the package pretty comprehensively answers most threats. Almost any creature threat that is small enough to dodge the sweepers will be easy to block with the 4 toughness creatures.
Looks bad, sorry man but just not great except for FNM style events, but in my opinion Dredge is too good to run 1RR sweeper that isn't anger of the gods, and I think removing chalice is a horrible decision even with MB leyline. 2 x Elspeth over any Nahiri is just bad. That deck looks like it would have a much worse matchup vs our usual trouble decks without improving any of the other ones.
Dusk and Dawn is similarly bad. For 4 mana I want a wrath that hits everything and stops regen, whereas Dusk misses all token strategies, misses geist of saint traft, misses 100% of burn, infect and affinity creatures, and the flipside is a bad 5 mana sorcery to fill your hand with thraben inspectors and walls, assuming they were in gy at all. Just not anywhere resembling what we want to be doing.
How are your thoughts when running with so many Chandra, Torch of Defiance? I mean, with Emrakul being in the deck... not really great to find it at the top of the deck, only to get it exiled :/
Currently I'm playing out with only 1 Chandra, 4 Nahiri, 2 Gideon Jura and 2 Ajani Vengeant. I'm gonna change the 2 Gideon for the new one, but still I'm unsure if we are missing something, or need something more for a regular win?
Khaos I've got a long history of thinking out loud. If anyone is curious about what I'd run if I were trying to win, I'd ask DrMarkB what he's running and more or less copy it.
Now on the other hand if I ever wanted someone to aggressively push his own version of the deck them you'd be the first person I'd come to, but don't hold your breath.
How are your thoughts when running with so many Chandra, Torch of Defiance? I mean, with Emrakul being in the deck... not really great to find it at the top of the deck, only to get it exiled :/
Currently I'm playing out with only 1 Chandra, 4 Nahiri, 2 Gideon Jura and 2 Ajani Vengeant. I'm gonna change the 2 Gideon for the new one, but still I'm unsure if we are missing something, or need something more for a regular win?
I run 4 Nahiri, 3 Chandra, 3 gideon of the trials. Chandra is our red JTMS and accomplishes similar goals, I think it's a mistake to run less than 3. It sucks to exile Emrakul, but thankfully he's not our only wincon. I feel like I win almost as often through her ult as I do Nahiri.
I think jura just doesn't cut it anymore. If we're using him to deal with decks that go wide I'd rather have another sweeper. If we're using him to handle 1 or 2 big attackers I'd prefer his 3 mana version, and ditto if we want the clock he provides. I'm torn on Vengeant but i think his days are done. His +1 is strictly worse than 3cmc gids, the -2 helix is decent but the starting loyalty means you really don't get to use it more than once. The ult is gamewinning but too slow. If i were you i' d cut jura and ajani for more copies of Chandra and Gideon of the trials
Edit: @illinest, why so salty? Feel free to think out loud, I was also thinking out loud. My thoughts just happened to be that I'm not sure dropping Nahiri and Chalice for Thraben Inspector and a strictly worse wrath is a good call. That said, I'm sure running your janky deck is a great way to make friends and lose money at your lgs with that Affinity player who 2-0s you while you sac clue tokens, so by all means go for it. It's got some super cool lines of play, like the turn 4 dusk turn 5 dawn turn 6 thraben inspectors, so I'm sure it's really fun. I'm just not sure you're getting the most bang for your buck with a $400+ deck that looks like it would lose to budget green stompy, but hey play the way you wanna play man.
You're like the guy who suggests a blue splash in the burn thread and then gets pissed when people say it's not a great idea.
How are your thoughts when running with so many Chandra, Torch of Defiance? I mean, with Emrakul being in the deck... not really great to find it at the top of the deck, only to get it exiled :/
Currently I'm playing out with only 1 Chandra, 4 Nahiri, 2 Gideon Jura and 2 Ajani Vengeant. I'm gonna change the 2 Gideon for the new one, but still I'm unsure if we are missing something, or need something more for a regular win?
I run 4 Nahiri, 3 Chandra, 3 gideon of the trials. Chandra is our red JTMS and accomplishes similar goals, I think it's a mistake to run less than 3. It sucks to exile Emrakul, but thankfully he's not our only wincon. I feel like I win almost as often through her ult as I do Nahiri.
I think jura just doesn't cut it anymore. If we're using him to deal with decks that go wide I'd rather have another sweeper. If we're using him to handle 1 or 2 big attackers I'd prefer his 3 mana version, and ditto if we want the clock he provides. I'm torn on Vengeant but i think his days are done. His +1 is strictly worse than 3cmc gids, the -2 helix is decent but the starting loyalty means you really don't get to use it more than once. The ult is gamewinning but too slow. If i were you i' d cut jura and ajani for more copies of Chandra and Gideon of the trials
I'm finding myself in the same train of thought myself. Ajani is nice; but rarely is the -2 Helix the difference between the win or loss; and it SUCKS to have to hold on to him until my opponent swings with something before I can effectively use his +1.
Jura is good; but I think bringing the mana curve down a step is better. I do like a 1-of because he can come down if they remove little gideon and immediate +2 and is then REALLY tough to remove.
I'm still 50/50 on dropping the Nahiri package in favor of Ensnaring Bridge, though. Being able to lock people from most 1 cmc spells or attacking Gideon + Emblem is a tough nut to crack. But she provides such a good clock I dont think I can bring myself to drop it.
How are your thoughts when running with so many Chandra, Torch of Defiance? I mean, with Emrakul being in the deck... not really great to find it at the top of the deck, only to get it exiled :/
Currently I'm playing out with only 1 Chandra, 4 Nahiri, 2 Gideon Jura and 2 Ajani Vengeant. I'm gonna change the 2 Gideon for the new one, but still I'm unsure if we are missing something, or need something more for a regular win?
I run 4 Nahiri, 3 Chandra, 3 gideon of the trials. Chandra is our red JTMS and accomplishes similar goals, I think it's a mistake to run less than 3. It sucks to exile Emrakul, but thankfully he's not our only wincon. I feel like I win almost as often through her ult as I do Nahiri.
I think jura just doesn't cut it anymore. If we're using him to deal with decks that go wide I'd rather have another sweeper. If we're using him to handle 1 or 2 big attackers I'd prefer his 3 mana version, and ditto if we want the clock he provides. I'm torn on Vengeant but i think his days are done. His +1 is strictly worse than 3cmc gids, the -2 helix is decent but the starting loyalty means you really don't get to use it more than once. The ult is gamewinning but too slow. If i were you i' d cut jura and ajani for more copies of Chandra and Gideon of the trials
I'm finding myself in the same train of thought myself. Ajani is nice; but rarely is the -2 Helix the difference between the win or loss; and it SUCKS to have to hold on to him until my opponent swings with something before I can effectively use his +1.
Jura is good; but I think bringing the mana curve down a step is better. I do like a 1-of because he can come down if they remove little gideon and immediate +2 and is then REALLY tough to remove.
I'm still 50/50 on dropping the Nahiri package in favor of Ensnaring Bridge, though. Being able to lock people from most 1 cmc spells or attacking Gideon + Emblem is a tough nut to crack. But she provides such a good clock I dont think I can bring myself to drop it.
I think enough things get through bridge to make it not worth it. Nahiri is full-blanket removal too, not just a clock. The fact that she hits creatures, enchantments, artifacts, is suuuuper relevant too. Bridge deals with attackers, but it can't -2 the turn you play it to exile their Ulamog or whatever. Her +2 is also card advantage, so I think overall I'd almost always prefer her + emmy over bridges mainboard. If you're in a meta just absolutely infested with creature aggro then bridge may be the better choice though.
As I said, i'm changing the Jura for the new 3-drop. But still, seems light to have 7 wincons in a deck (with 4 of them being dependant on Emrakul, which could get exiled...)
Has anyone tried using more dudes? Perhaps a singleton of Inferno Titan or whatever? Just thinking out loud here, as we already hose Paths with our Chalices it could be nice to have a consistent winning plan
Right now I think that with or without Bridge the pw builds are viable, although Tron is a rough ride as ever. As an aside I have no issues running Nahiri and Bridge is not an issue as Nahiri is very decent without fetching the Emmy. I don't think arguing about the last couple of slots is really going to help- Gideon, Ajani et al. are all decent, and in the end tight play is probably the most important thing once the basics are in place.
The landkill deck has not been nerfed that much by the rule change, the Dweller into boom//bust trick is rarely used, and more often than not the game is won without such tricks.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
the GDD is basically just a fast finisher that makes draws less likely to happen. it sort of seals the deal. i feel like its not a hard slot to replace as its usually the first thing i sb out.
Alright guys & girls. This is what I'm playing around with currently
Seems pretty good in the current meta, and I've currently tried it against the following decks with good results:
Valakut Combo
Eldrazi Tron
Grixis Delver
Death's Shadow
Affinity
This is very close to the list I am working with right now. The only notable change is -1 Alliance, +1 Wrath, and + 1 Plains, - 1 Sacred Foundry, as being short a W source post-moon sucks.
I'm still up in the air about mainboard Leyline, but very much on the same page as you overall.
Alright guys & girls. This is what I'm playing around with currently
Seems pretty good in the current meta, and I've currently tried it against the following decks with good results:
Valakut Combo
Eldrazi Tron
Grixis Delver
Death's Shadow
Affinity
Looks really solid. I think the only changes I would make if it were my list is remove 2x Blessed Alliance for 2x Lightning Helix or even 2x Leyline of Sanctity mainboard. How did your match vs Eldrazi Tron go? That's always been a tough matchup for us unless we land an early blood moon.
I don't find Lightning Helix good in the meta :/ It kills way to few creatures, and I really love to exile stuff instead of just destroying it with damage.
Interestingly, my last change was from 2 Lightning Helix to 2 Journey to Nowhere
Indeed, against Eldrazi Tron we really need Blood Moon. They are very dependant on artifacts though, so after board it makes a huge difference to have 4 Stony Silence. Also, Blessed Alliance and Journey is awesome removal against them
Ive been having luck with a 3/1 split of simian spirit guide between the maindeck and sideboard.
I find i never want 2 if im on the play because i get way too far behind in cards, but if im on the draw i want the extra speed.
Anyone been testing with Glorious End? If so what results have you had? I tried a bit but found it pretty slow and often a dead card without Gideon + emblem.
Also, what about Heart of Kiran? Been having some luck with it in combination with new Gideon.
I tested both, both seem like flops. Heart is only good with a pw out and usually just eats a path or fatal push, and glorious end is almost always dead in hand. Part of the reason Glorious End sucks is because in testing i find myself almost never using gideon for the emblem, his +1 is much more relevant until we already have a lock, otherwise he's just dead the next turn.
4x Spellskite
4x Thraben Inspector
3x Wall of Omens
4x Blood Moon
3x Leyline of Sanctity
Instant (4)
4x Path to Exile
2x Gideon of the Trials
3x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4x Sweltering Suns
3x Dusk
Thraben Inspector and Wall of Omens are early game card advantage. You're usually not making impact plays on those turns anyways, so I like to throw a body down and draw a card. Spellskite protects Planeswalkers in two different ways.
Dusk // Dawn - Dusk is a one-sided Wrath of God (doesn't hit your creatures) on the first cast. Dawn returns the dead creatures to your hand and allows you to cast them a second time for more card draw. Sweltering Suns is a decent answer to the "go-wide" creature decks, and can be cycled when it's not necessary. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a strong answer to big baddies. Despite the limitations of each sweeper, the package pretty comprehensively answers most threats. Almost any creature threat that is small enough to dodge the sweepers will be easy to block with the 4 toughness creatures.
Dusk and Dawn is similarly bad. For 4 mana I want a wrath that hits everything and stops regen, whereas Dusk misses all token strategies, misses geist of saint traft, misses 100% of burn, infect and affinity creatures, and the flipside is a bad 5 mana sorcery to fill your hand with thraben inspectors and walls, assuming they were in gy at all. Just not anywhere resembling what we want to be doing.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
Currently I'm playing out with only 1 Chandra, 4 Nahiri, 2 Gideon Jura and 2 Ajani Vengeant. I'm gonna change the 2 Gideon for the new one, but still I'm unsure if we are missing something, or need something more for a regular win?
Now on the other hand if I ever wanted someone to aggressively push his own version of the deck them you'd be the first person I'd come to, but don't hold your breath.
I run 4 Nahiri, 3 Chandra, 3 gideon of the trials. Chandra is our red JTMS and accomplishes similar goals, I think it's a mistake to run less than 3. It sucks to exile Emrakul, but thankfully he's not our only wincon. I feel like I win almost as often through her ult as I do Nahiri.
I think jura just doesn't cut it anymore. If we're using him to deal with decks that go wide I'd rather have another sweeper. If we're using him to handle 1 or 2 big attackers I'd prefer his 3 mana version, and ditto if we want the clock he provides. I'm torn on Vengeant but i think his days are done. His +1 is strictly worse than 3cmc gids, the -2 helix is decent but the starting loyalty means you really don't get to use it more than once. The ult is gamewinning but too slow. If i were you i' d cut jura and ajani for more copies of Chandra and Gideon of the trials
Edit: @illinest, why so salty? Feel free to think out loud, I was also thinking out loud. My thoughts just happened to be that I'm not sure dropping Nahiri and Chalice for Thraben Inspector and a strictly worse wrath is a good call. That said, I'm sure running your janky deck is a great way to make friends and lose money at your lgs with that Affinity player who 2-0s you while you sac clue tokens, so by all means go for it. It's got some super cool lines of play, like the turn 4 dusk turn 5 dawn turn 6 thraben inspectors, so I'm sure it's really fun. I'm just not sure you're getting the most bang for your buck with a $400+ deck that looks like it would lose to budget green stompy, but hey play the way you wanna play man.
You're like the guy who suggests a blue splash in the burn thread and then gets pissed when people say it's not a great idea.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
I'm finding myself in the same train of thought myself. Ajani is nice; but rarely is the -2 Helix the difference between the win or loss; and it SUCKS to have to hold on to him until my opponent swings with something before I can effectively use his +1.
Jura is good; but I think bringing the mana curve down a step is better. I do like a 1-of because he can come down if they remove little gideon and immediate +2 and is then REALLY tough to remove.
I'm still 50/50 on dropping the Nahiri package in favor of Ensnaring Bridge, though. Being able to lock people from most 1 cmc spells or attacking Gideon + Emblem is a tough nut to crack. But she provides such a good clock I dont think I can bring myself to drop it.
I think enough things get through bridge to make it not worth it. Nahiri is full-blanket removal too, not just a clock. The fact that she hits creatures, enchantments, artifacts, is suuuuper relevant too. Bridge deals with attackers, but it can't -2 the turn you play it to exile their Ulamog or whatever. Her +2 is also card advantage, so I think overall I'd almost always prefer her + emmy over bridges mainboard. If you're in a meta just absolutely infested with creature aggro then bridge may be the better choice though.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
Has anyone tried using more dudes? Perhaps a singleton of Inferno Titan or whatever? Just thinking out loud here, as we already hose Paths with our Chalices it could be nice to have a consistent winning plan
Simian Spirit Guide Beats
Chandra shock to death; maybe even an emblem!
Nahiri / Emmy
Lightning Helix to face
Maybe there is some merit to a 1-of Needle Spires too; and I'll certainly be keeping a 1-of Gideon Jura.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
The landkill deck has not been nerfed that much by the rule change, the Dweller into boom//bust trick is rarely used, and more often than not the game is won without such tricks.
Seems pretty good in the current meta, and I've currently tried it against the following decks with good results:
Valakut Combo
Eldrazi Tron
Grixis Delver
Death's Shadow
Affinity
This is very close to the list I am working with right now. The only notable change is -1 Alliance, +1 Wrath, and + 1 Plains, - 1 Sacred Foundry, as being short a W source post-moon sucks.
I'm still up in the air about mainboard Leyline, but very much on the same page as you overall.
Looks really solid. I think the only changes I would make if it were my list is remove 2x Blessed Alliance for 2x Lightning Helix or even 2x Leyline of Sanctity mainboard. How did your match vs Eldrazi Tron go? That's always been a tough matchup for us unless we land an early blood moon.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
I don't find Lightning Helix good in the meta :/ It kills way to few creatures, and I really love to exile stuff instead of just destroying it with damage.
Interestingly, my last change was from 2 Lightning Helix to 2 Journey to Nowhere
Indeed, against Eldrazi Tron we really need Blood Moon. They are very dependant on artifacts though, so after board it makes a huge difference to have 4 Stony Silence. Also, Blessed Alliance and Journey is awesome removal against them
I find i never want 2 if im on the play because i get way too far behind in cards, but if im on the draw i want the extra speed.
Does anyone else do this?
Also, what about Heart of Kiran? Been having some luck with it in combination with new Gideon.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes