I actually run 2 darksteel citadels for extra targets for Boom//Busts. I had the same concern that after locking a player out of lands, the deck can really lag on finishing them off, giving them more draws. I've started testing
Sin Prodder as another kill condition and card advantage and so far I've been impressed.
I haven't seen this list posted, https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-red-white-nahiri#online. I like the additions of the Colossus and intervention pacts. I would still prefer playing chalices than paths. Don't know about the madcaps as Colossus is the only target. I think a list of the PWs version with intervention pacts and Colossus would be interesting.
Has anyone tried Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, if so what's the consensus. His + ability can put lots of pressure and removal is always good for his -. I wouldn't bother with his ult though.
Lastly, can anyone explain the benefit of playing snow-covered lands without any cards that use snow mana?
This deck is quite popular in my current meta. Definitely shuts down Jund for the most part, especially from shutting down mana in the right colors for them.
This Monday we had Modern Monday again and I was playing Dredge at that time and was paired against this deck. Funny enough, Blood Moon did hurt the deck but not that much in game 1, getting four Prized Amalgam down really helped me. Rest in Peace came down in the second game and it did hurt my dredging but hard casting my beaters helped to seal the match.
I'm trying to understand how the landfill deck wins the game... a handful of Magus and GDD doesn't seem like enough but clearly you've been successful. Will you talk a bit about how the game should play out?
Also, if you're destroying lands enough, do you not need Blood Moon?
Last, without fetchlands, how often do you end up Booming your own land? Is it ok to do that?
You really don't want blood moon because it makes Flagstones bad. It is redundant, largely. Some lists run a combination, they are Nahrii planeswalker hybrids with a few LD spells thrown in. But on the whole- avoid BM in landkill.
You can't run fetchlands with Boom Bust if you run S Field, which is for me the best card in the deck. It hits so much- check out a few pages back for discussion.
You aim to hit the boom on Flagstones- that is no 1 target. After that, you can happily boom your own land if it is a Ghost Quarter, of course. Once you are ahead on mana and have taxes you can hit your own land no problem, but you don't do it t2 very often on your own land- that is why you have 2cc stuff like Chalice and S field. If you run Crucible then hitting your own Temples allows an additional Scry later on, leading to value plays of kill 2 lands, replay the scry land and scry. That can help find a win con when you have won but the game is not over as they have not scooped and time is closing in. GHost Quartering your Scryland has the same effect.
Games against unfair decks involve me dropping a Chalice, S field or Casting Boom t2. I am concerned if I do not do this. I want to maximise my chances of t2 pseudo Sinkhole- so t1 Temple is ideal- you want cards that are useful there and then, always try to increase the chance of t2 landkil. From there I want to hit lands if I can, and then drop taxes. Magus is best if they have a dude down, although sometimes/rarely vs. Infect you want the Ghostly over Magus. Against decks packing critter kill it is often a question of simply playing to their outs- can they cast a big fatal push to hit your Magus, or not? What will that do to you if they kill it? That will depend on your S field being down or not, but the point is that it dictates your ordering of the taxes. It is pretty easy to pick up.
Games against fair decks require you to hit their land and aim at one colour. Using the Armageddon effect is often the best route mid game. Boarding in more critters is often the plan game 2, if you have them.
Vs all decks:
Ideally I want my Aven Mindcensor to come down in response to a fetch- often this taps them out and can be backbreaking. Just flashing it in and letting them see it is normally worse, although vs Infect it can take out an Inkmoth.
I want to cast dark dwellers but don't need to abuse the rules and 'Geddon- the Dweller does not have to be nuts, just get decent or less value.
Eventually you will reduce them to zero men because of Magus. Rarely you will double Magus, often limiting your ability to cast anything. Landkill can build up in hand at this point.
Many decks simply scoop once they can't win. You can destroy every land in their deck, they want to win and losing 1-0 won't help them. Once a Ghostly or Magus hits, many players realise they can't win and scoop to get game 2/3 in.
The Mindcensors often peck away, they don't often finish, but they often do a lot of damage while Magus swings less often. Coupled with shocklands, the odd fetch, and Molten damage it is always enough vs every unfair deck to just sit there and you eventually get the damage through without fancy plays or too much thought.
As ever, the rule of ten things on t2, excluding reactive spells, should ensure that hitting t2 boom Bust is not as important. I have tried Citadels, but they caused me a few issues regarding Stony Silence game 2 and colour issues.
Yeah, I pretty much win with the Dark-Dwellers, with nothing on the board they often take the game themselves.
One of my most common ways of winning is:
1: Resolve a Chalice on 1.
2: Destroy Lands to gain the upper hand in tempo/land count.
3: Play a Magus
3: Play a Dark-Dweller, flashbacking Bust either with a flagstones in play or drop a land from your hand AFTER it has resolved (so you end up with a single land).
4: Pass turn, watch as your opponent sighs or scoops.
5: In upkeep, pay 1 for your Dark-Dweller, sacrifice the Magus and swing for the win.
Most of the removal-spells in the format are 1-drops. So a single DD can own the game with a Chalice on 1. Even if they manage to find a land and a blocker, they need 2 blockers to even start to handle the DD as it has Menace.
Sometimes i can even get the kill with a magus or two. With upkeep-costs of 2 for each creature, and a chalice on 1, most opponents can't do much about the threat at all.
Blood Moon is a no-go for me. My list started out as a 4 Blood Moon package, but I realised It's just bad to play land destruction if you're turning their lands into mountains. Also it's a nonbo with Suppression Fields, which should shut fetchlands out of the game, not turn them to usable mountains for free.
Booming your own lands are pretty common yeah, It doesn't do that much, as we never need more than 5 mana, and personally I play 4 Flagstones and 2 GQ, so you can do some tricks with your 4 Boom/Bust there anyway.
Alright.... GPT Copenhagen this Saturday, and I'm looking for another Top 8 with the following decklist (any thoughts/suggestions?):
BEATDOWN
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4 Simian Spirit Guide
PRISON/TAXATION
4 Suppression Field
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void
LAND DESTRUCTION
4 Molten Rain
4 Stone Rain
4 Boom // Bust
EHM... REMOVAL?
3 Anger of the Gods
LANDS
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Mountain
2 Inspiring Vantage
3 Plains
2 Rugged Prairie
--------------------
SIDEBOARD
2 Stony Silence
2 Blessed Alliance
4 Nahiri, the harbinger
2 Runed Halo
1 Crumble to Dust
2 Wheel of sun and moon
1 Linvala, keeper of silence
1 Emrakul, The aeons torn
Not much to say here... It's my standard list, except i went (as drmarkb will definately notice) up to 4 SF main, and took out the 4th Magus. This because I've seen an uprising of the Eldrazi Tron, and lots of Jund/Abzan/Death's Shadow decks going around, and they hate that card
The only thing I'm "missing" per say it 2 good damn Gemstone Caverns that I want to include in the manabase, but they're impossible to find around here, so I'll have to make due without them.
My board-thoughts are:
1. Nahiri-Package: When facing blue, or slow matchups where I want to have an explosive wincon, or just don't find the need for SF I take this route. It's amazingly good against many decks, especially when they just boarded in stuff to handle your Chalices and Lockdown-pieces... Surprise, here's Emrakul!
2. Stony Silence: Well, affinity is still out there, and it makes a big impact against Tron-decks.
3. Blessed Alliance & Runed Halo: Against aggro decks, and/or burn. But Runed Halo also works against things like Griselbrand reanimator and stuff, and it's pretty awesome.
4. Crumble to Dust: I got one foil lying around, and it wrecks decks with greedy manabases, and Tron.
5. Wheel of Sun & Moon: My choice of gravehate (doesn't disrupt my DD and Flagstones). And I won a recent FNM against Mill because I put it on myself
6. Linvala: A leverage against those pesky Elves I hate facing. Sometimes Anger is not enough, so this comes in. It also wrecks alot of Coco-decks and creature-toolboxes.
This went 5-0 in a league (not my build). Very close to the build I'm running; but it seems surprising to me to be so light on the wraths (only 2 of each Anger of the Gods and Wrath of God). What does everyone think?
I'm debating making the few minor changes to that build for tonight's FNM.
I do like that it shaved one planeswalker in favor of answers; as that somewhat reflects my experiences / thoughts already.
Can't really see how it needs more removal when it plays both Lightning Helix, Oblivion Ring and Blessed Alliance in addition to those Wraths and Angers
And how do you justify the switch from Leylines to 2 halos and a crumble?
Also after trying your old list for a bit, i found myself never actually needing the nahiri package (which seems insane), and im actually considering ditching it for some more dedicated SBcards.
And how do you justify the switch from Leylines to 2 halos and a crumble?
Also after trying your old list for a bit, i found myself never actually needing the nahiri package (which seems insane), and im actually considering ditching it for some more dedicated SBcards.
Leylines are a must IMO; at least SB.
That said, the Nahiri package is rarely a must, but it's a low cost (looting + removal is good without ulting her) option to close out the game sometimes. I often find I'll side out a single Nahiri when I dont feel as pressed for closing sleep.
And how do you justify the switch from Leylines to 2 halos and a crumble?
Also after trying your old list for a bit, i found myself never actually needing the nahiri package (which seems insane), and im actually considering ditching it for some more dedicated SBcards.
Leylines are a must IMO; at least SB.
That said, the Nahiri package is rarely a must, but it's a low cost (looting + removal is good without ulting her) option to close out the game sometimes. I often find I'll side out a single Nahiri when I dont feel as pressed for closing sleep.
no i meant i dont even feel like shes worth the 5 slots in sb in the tax build.
Ok... so i went top-8 again... for the 5th time in a row. And for the fifth time in a row i lost in the quarterfinals This time it was against "Titan Breach Valakut", which were the only deck and player i lost against in my ordinary matches.
Tough luck I guess!
I took out the Leylines because I rarely needed them at all. When do I really take out 4 cards (and what cards?) to become "perhaps" a bit safer against say, burn and discard? I still haven't had a single match that I regret not having Leylines in the SB.
Runed Halo does double duty. You can play fewer than 4 (as playing Leylines most often means you want to have it in your starting hand, otherwise it will slow this deck down significantly) and you can choose hard to handle creatures and whatnot.
In a Grixis Matchup yesterday I named Tasigur, which won me the match, cuz all the other beaters would die against Anger of the Gods. I named Lord of Atlantis in a game vs Merfolk, when they had 3 of them on the board...
Crumble to Dust is an awesome card, really. I played it yesterday against Cavern of Souls, so they couldn't cheat their dudes past my Chalices.
Well, to each of their own I guess. But my build is pretty light on wincons, and there were several matches yesterday that I took out my SF and took in my Nahiris and won with them, keeping the opponent low on lands and having chalice on 1 to fill their hand with nonsense. I actually raced Jund one match with Nahiri, as I had a Magus of the Tabernacle in play, blocking Goyfs all the match, until another Tabernacle landed, making my opponent loose half his board presence.
My local meta is heavy on fetchland use and aggro - especially RDW/Naya, affinity and the occasional Merfolk deck. I do see Tron and mill decks; but control players tend to be extremely varied in general, thus the universal "answer" of oblivion ring.
While I am running only 20 lands and 4 Simian Spirit Guides, My curve ends at 3. The main problem I have with the deck is that Game 1 I have to be careful to get Kor Firewalker out before I drop the Blood Moon. The "filter" land allows for T1 Kor Firewalker via a Filter land/Simian Spirt Guide
Sin Prodder as another kill condition and card advantage and so far I've been impressed.
Triland Enterprise
Has anyone tried Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, if so what's the consensus. His + ability can put lots of pressure and removal is always good for his -. I wouldn't bother with his ult though.
Lastly, can anyone explain the benefit of playing snow-covered lands without any cards that use snow mana?
This Monday we had Modern Monday again and I was playing Dredge at that time and was paired against this deck. Funny enough, Blood Moon did hurt the deck but not that much in game 1, getting four Prized Amalgam down really helped me. Rest in Peace came down in the second game and it did hurt my dredging but hard casting my beaters helped to seal the match.
Has anyone tried this in a R/W prison? Seems like it might have a place in the 3 drop spot in land destruction build.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?printed=true&multiverseid=124504[/url]
Æther Membrane is a 'really' cool. I've never heard of that card. I'd use it in the deck.
You really don't want blood moon because it makes Flagstones bad. It is redundant, largely. Some lists run a combination, they are Nahrii planeswalker hybrids with a few LD spells thrown in. But on the whole- avoid BM in landkill.
You can't run fetchlands with Boom Bust if you run S Field, which is for me the best card in the deck. It hits so much- check out a few pages back for discussion.
You aim to hit the boom on Flagstones- that is no 1 target. After that, you can happily boom your own land if it is a Ghost Quarter, of course. Once you are ahead on mana and have taxes you can hit your own land no problem, but you don't do it t2 very often on your own land- that is why you have 2cc stuff like Chalice and S field. If you run Crucible then hitting your own Temples allows an additional Scry later on, leading to value plays of kill 2 lands, replay the scry land and scry. That can help find a win con when you have won but the game is not over as they have not scooped and time is closing in. GHost Quartering your Scryland has the same effect.
Games against unfair decks involve me dropping a Chalice, S field or Casting Boom t2. I am concerned if I do not do this. I want to maximise my chances of t2 pseudo Sinkhole- so t1 Temple is ideal- you want cards that are useful there and then, always try to increase the chance of t2 landkil. From there I want to hit lands if I can, and then drop taxes. Magus is best if they have a dude down, although sometimes/rarely vs. Infect you want the Ghostly over Magus. Against decks packing critter kill it is often a question of simply playing to their outs- can they cast a big fatal push to hit your Magus, or not? What will that do to you if they kill it? That will depend on your S field being down or not, but the point is that it dictates your ordering of the taxes. It is pretty easy to pick up.
Games against fair decks require you to hit their land and aim at one colour. Using the Armageddon effect is often the best route mid game. Boarding in more critters is often the plan game 2, if you have them.
Vs all decks:
Ideally I want my Aven Mindcensor to come down in response to a fetch- often this taps them out and can be backbreaking. Just flashing it in and letting them see it is normally worse, although vs Infect it can take out an Inkmoth.
I want to cast dark dwellers but don't need to abuse the rules and 'Geddon- the Dweller does not have to be nuts, just get decent or less value.
Eventually you will reduce them to zero men because of Magus. Rarely you will double Magus, often limiting your ability to cast anything. Landkill can build up in hand at this point.
Many decks simply scoop once they can't win. You can destroy every land in their deck, they want to win and losing 1-0 won't help them. Once a Ghostly or Magus hits, many players realise they can't win and scoop to get game 2/3 in.
The Mindcensors often peck away, they don't often finish, but they often do a lot of damage while Magus swings less often. Coupled with shocklands, the odd fetch, and Molten damage it is always enough vs every unfair deck to just sit there and you eventually get the damage through without fancy plays or too much thought.
As ever, the rule of ten things on t2, excluding reactive spells, should ensure that hitting t2 boom Bust is not as important. I have tried Citadels, but they caused me a few issues regarding Stony Silence game 2 and colour issues.
I have tried it. I did not like it in Landkill as it puts strain on Magus. It seemed ok.
Yeah, I pretty much win with the Dark-Dwellers, with nothing on the board they often take the game themselves.
One of my most common ways of winning is:
1: Resolve a Chalice on 1.
2: Destroy Lands to gain the upper hand in tempo/land count.
3: Play a Magus
3: Play a Dark-Dweller, flashbacking Bust either with a flagstones in play or drop a land from your hand AFTER it has resolved (so you end up with a single land).
4: Pass turn, watch as your opponent sighs or scoops.
5: In upkeep, pay 1 for your Dark-Dweller, sacrifice the Magus and swing for the win.
Most of the removal-spells in the format are 1-drops. So a single DD can own the game with a Chalice on 1. Even if they manage to find a land and a blocker, they need 2 blockers to even start to handle the DD as it has Menace.
Sometimes i can even get the kill with a magus or two. With upkeep-costs of 2 for each creature, and a chalice on 1, most opponents can't do much about the threat at all.
Blood Moon is a no-go for me. My list started out as a 4 Blood Moon package, but I realised It's just bad to play land destruction if you're turning their lands into mountains. Also it's a nonbo with Suppression Fields, which should shut fetchlands out of the game, not turn them to usable mountains for free.
Booming your own lands are pretty common yeah, It doesn't do that much, as we never need more than 5 mana, and personally I play 4 Flagstones and 2 GQ, so you can do some tricks with your 4 Boom/Bust there anyway.
BEATDOWN
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4 Simian Spirit Guide
PRISON/TAXATION
4 Suppression Field
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void
LAND DESTRUCTION
4 Molten Rain
4 Stone Rain
4 Boom // Bust
EHM... REMOVAL?
3 Anger of the Gods
LANDS
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Mountain
2 Inspiring Vantage
3 Plains
2 Rugged Prairie
--------------------
SIDEBOARD
2 Stony Silence
2 Blessed Alliance
4 Nahiri, the harbinger
2 Runed Halo
1 Crumble to Dust
2 Wheel of sun and moon
1 Linvala, keeper of silence
1 Emrakul, The aeons torn
Not much to say here... It's my standard list, except i went (as drmarkb will definately notice) up to 4 SF main, and took out the 4th Magus. This because I've seen an uprising of the Eldrazi Tron, and lots of Jund/Abzan/Death's Shadow decks going around, and they hate that card
The only thing I'm "missing" per say it 2 good damn Gemstone Caverns that I want to include in the manabase, but they're impossible to find around here, so I'll have to make due without them.
My board-thoughts are:
1. Nahiri-Package: When facing blue, or slow matchups where I want to have an explosive wincon, or just don't find the need for SF I take this route. It's amazingly good against many decks, especially when they just boarded in stuff to handle your Chalices and Lockdown-pieces... Surprise, here's Emrakul!
2. Stony Silence: Well, affinity is still out there, and it makes a big impact against Tron-decks.
3. Blessed Alliance & Runed Halo: Against aggro decks, and/or burn. But Runed Halo also works against things like Griselbrand reanimator and stuff, and it's pretty awesome.
4. Crumble to Dust: I got one foil lying around, and it wrecks decks with greedy manabases, and Tron.
5. Wheel of Sun & Moon: My choice of gravehate (doesn't disrupt my DD and Flagstones). And I won a recent FNM against Mill because I put it on myself
6. Linvala: A leverage against those pesky Elves I hate facing. Sometimes Anger is not enough, so this comes in. It also wrecks alot of Coco-decks and creature-toolboxes.
This went 5-0 in a league (not my build). Very close to the build I'm running; but it seems surprising to me to be so light on the wraths (only 2 of each Anger of the Gods and Wrath of God). What does everyone think?
I'm debating making the few minor changes to that build for tonight's FNM.
I do like that it shaved one planeswalker in favor of answers; as that somewhat reflects my experiences / thoughts already.
And how do you justify the switch from Leylines to 2 halos and a crumble?
Also after trying your old list for a bit, i found myself never actually needing the nahiri package (which seems insane), and im actually considering ditching it for some more dedicated SBcards.
Leylines are a must IMO; at least SB.
That said, the Nahiri package is rarely a must, but it's a low cost (looting + removal is good without ulting her) option to close out the game sometimes. I often find I'll side out a single Nahiri when I dont feel as pressed for closing sleep.
no i meant i dont even feel like shes worth the 5 slots in sb in the tax build.
Tough luck I guess!
I took out the Leylines because I rarely needed them at all. When do I really take out 4 cards (and what cards?) to become "perhaps" a bit safer against say, burn and discard? I still haven't had a single match that I regret not having Leylines in the SB.
Runed Halo does double duty. You can play fewer than 4 (as playing Leylines most often means you want to have it in your starting hand, otherwise it will slow this deck down significantly) and you can choose hard to handle creatures and whatnot.
In a Grixis Matchup yesterday I named Tasigur, which won me the match, cuz all the other beaters would die against Anger of the Gods. I named Lord of Atlantis in a game vs Merfolk, when they had 3 of them on the board...
Crumble to Dust is an awesome card, really. I played it yesterday against Cavern of Souls, so they couldn't cheat their dudes past my Chalices.
Well, to each of their own I guess. But my build is pretty light on wincons, and there were several matches yesterday that I took out my SF and took in my Nahiris and won with them, keeping the opponent low on lands and having chalice on 1 to fill their hand with nonsense. I actually raced Jund one match with Nahiri, as I had a Magus of the Tabernacle in play, blocking Goyfs all the match, until another Tabernacle landed, making my opponent loose half his board presence.
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Rugged Prarie
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Prison
4 Blood Moon
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Supression Field
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Helix
Beatdown
4 Kor Firewalker
3 Monastery Mentor
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
3 Boros Reckoner
1 Batterskull
4 Avalanche Riders
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Nahiri, The Harbringer
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
Batterskull + Boros Reckoner + Boros Charm is a backup wincon against "go long" decks or in the mirror.
Alesha, Who Smiles at Death is tech in the sideboard that brings back every creature in the deck except for Boros Reckoner, and is a wincon if Avalanche Riders is in the graveyard due to recursion tech.
My local meta is heavy on fetchland use and aggro - especially RDW/Naya, affinity and the occasional Merfolk deck. I do see Tron and mill decks; but control players tend to be extremely varied in general, thus the universal "answer" of oblivion ring.
While I am running only 20 lands and 4 Simian Spirit Guides, My curve ends at 3. The main problem I have with the deck is that Game 1 I have to be careful to get Kor Firewalker out before I drop the Blood Moon. The "filter" land allows for T1 Kor Firewalker via a Filter land/Simian Spirt Guide
So the landkill deck is pretty much dead by now... we can't really function without an armageddon effect.
Well then, guess people should keep playing only tier-1 decks, as wizards want it. Tron for life or whatever...