Do we want to consider Invasive Surgery if Scapeshift gains in popularity?
I have no idea how to play this deck but I'm guessing these are some Gifts piles:
vs. ThopterSword: Elesh Norn/Unburial Rites
vs. RG Tron: G1 Newlamog/Unburial Rites, G2 side in Terastodon(if they get Karn/Newlamog before you you're doomed)
vs. Grishoalbrand: Dispel/Negate/Surgical/Spell Snare (assuming you survive long enough)
when you need to stabilize: 3 boardwipes + Timely Reinforcements
when you need to grind: Foundry/Sword/Academy Ruins/Crucible
The deck is still in flux, We're currently unsure how the best way to integrate Thopter Sword is. The primer has some really solid examples of pre set gifts piles if you want to check it out. Gifts takes time to figure out how to play because it depends so much on your list, and the current game state.
In general you seem to have a strong idea of what you are doing, Gifts for Rites + Fatty of choice in good matchup is game ending when it's safe to pull the trigger, but almost every other situation depends on where you are. Sometimes you want to gifts for counterspells and board wipes. Sometimes you want to gifts for better ways to cycle through your deck. Sometimes you need to gifts for lands.
Just some things of notes when playing gifts. Gifts for another Gifts is often really strong in grindy matchups. People rarely want to give you another Gifts because it just helps you cycle through your deck so quickly. Gifts for Emrakul is also strong because recycling our deck is often something that can be backbreaking to the opponent.
@bigdeezyrider
Our decks are pretty different but I can understand most of the choices. The only one I don't really understand is the Ulamog. I'm curious why you are running him over Wurmcoil Engine or Karn / Ugin.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
What matchups did you feel that tks was very strong in, and where was it weak?: Strong: Literally all of them. You appear on your face to be a control deck to most opponents, but casting TKS and taking their best card, and having either pressure or a reasonable blocker is great. It beat down and blocked well against Infect, Pilfered GDD and K-Commands against Jund, Chords against Abzan Company. It Truly was the MVP of the tournament, and would love to figure out how to get the 4th in the 75 (not sure if main or sideboard).
When did you find yourself gifting for the thopter combo instead of the unburial plan? What matchups did you find the combo great, and where did you side it out?: When unburial rites was actively bad (against 3 color midrange decks) you GET TO THE THOPTAAAAAAAAAAAS, as that completely outgrinds the midrange decks, and if you happen to trip and fall over Elesh Norn, your opponent just dies. You rarely if ever board out the combo (except against infect and combos). Those decks are too fast or don't care about thopters (because against Infect gifts is best reserved for Elesh), so you bring in counterspells instead. We aren't necessarily trying to beat our opponent over the head with thopters. We are lulling them to sleep, and thopters are the back door to victory.
Terminus vs hallowed burial. Which do you like better overall?: I am unsure. Like I said, Burial is much easier to cast if you open on it, but in games where you draw either of them on a non-empty board, holy moly is Terminus insane. If you draw it on an empty board, you are winning!! and have time to get to it. Probably going to stick with my guns and go Terminus for now. Could be subject to change.
Any thoughts on it? (Your points about terminus and tks have piqued my interest): Thought 1: Literally one too many mana sources. Our decks are almost identical in mana base, but I don't want to go over 29 mana sources (personal preference), because any more than that in modern feels like you are in Noah's great flood. Thought 2: I hate Snapcaster in this deck, because I never felt like there was enough upside for him, which is how I reached TKS in the first place, digging for more interactive spells. I occasionally missed being able to path again against infect and aggressive stratagems, but I never shaped gifts piles where wrath of god was the main target, often times you are dead if that is the case even if you do wrath.
Deck looks fine to me otherwise, just based on personal preference, which is why you see me with big dumb idiot eldrazi's and you have ugin (I wanted to fit Ugin into my main as well, but that would have been all of the greed in the world, and too many bombs, throwing off the ratios).
Bonus Thought: I like Sundering Titan. Might steal that.
@TheDasuri: Ulamog was the most recent addition that I saw people on this board playing and I fell in love with it. I wasn't a fan of Wurmcoil Engine in this deck ever, as it felt like it didn't do enough, but could be insane if you are looping it with Ruins. I also mentally sculpted situations where I was figuring out how I could bail myself out of all sorts of different awkward spots, like what happens if my Emrakul gets O-Ringed, then I cast ulamog and exile permanents (forgetting that ugin could also cover that situation). Being able to attack however is not irrelevant. I Unburial Rites the Ulamog in multiple different situations that day that led to victories against the combo decks because of the clock. I am still up in the air on which one I want more. If Jeskai is on the rise then it is Ugin. Otherwise, Ulamog.
@John Doe:
Seeiong your deck, you cut Wurmcoil Engine because the Thopter / Sword combo works wonders for the Jund and Burn Matchups (where Wurmcoil usually works best), so how's your matchup for those two? I understant that once assembled, the combo can actually do wonders in other matchups (Junk, UWR, Infect), but have you found the heavier GY dependance to be worth the removal of WE?: Jund matchup is a literal coin flip, but it is the most polar coin flip you have ever heard of. If your opponent draws Liliana, it is 0/100. If not, 95/5. Like a turn 3 Liliana is almost unbeatable, and if they don't draw it, they are drawing stuff that you interact with with random cards, and it is pretty easy from there. Burn is a race. They try to kill you before turn 5 or flood the board with creatures. You try to put Iona into play. Whoever does that first wins. Then post sideboard you still have that plan, but also, you have more countermagic, discard and lifegain, making you what feels like a slight favorite (55/45 overall I think)
I can easily relate to the Terminus case, but there's something in the extra two mana (comparing to DOJ) that makes me wonder. Against "die" effects, i understand its great, and will try it (finally, a reason to use my playset).: Again a player preference piece. The Wrath I felt stupid and missed out on was actually O-Stone. Won't forget that though.
I thought about TKS precisely because of the goodness it bring against combo / control decks, but never found out the right number (was trying with either 1 or 4), so 2 is the sweetspot you found?
I used to use two Condescent because of both the scry and because my meta had more RG tron in it (more hard counters helped a little), but i can understand the case for SS.: I would play 4 total in the 75. For curve considerations in the main, 2 was the perfect number, but I am aching to get the third main. Wouldn't play 4 in the main, but would love it out of the board as the third one is currently. SS was just out of respect for the expectation of TF decks. It wasn't really great over the course of the day, but it was acceptable.
Regarding Terastodon, since you intend to "fold" to the RG tron matchup, have you considered Blazing Archon? He should be better against certain decks that pack creatures that Elesh Norn can't deal with (new Eldrazi lists, living End, etç)?: Also worth noting. It doesn't necessarily have to be a big dumb uncastable. It just has to be something that is useful. the Don was not even that.
Invasive Surgery: Nope. Not even close. It is difficult for this deck to get to delirium. If you get there however card is great! I just don't see myself using that because there are far more instants that could cause me grief than sorceries, so my narrow counter of choice remains dispel.
What decks are the most evenly matched against us? Which matchups are the most fun to play against?
I love to play vs affinity :3
What is the plan for Fish? Played a good friend yesterday 1-5 as allways this matchup feels very one sided to my supprise Ghostly even with path feels really good because they want to activated mutavault which is the best creature in their deck.
Ghostly Prison and Wrath are both quite solid against the deck. They go wide, and fast if they get a Vial, so you can definitely beat them like that. Ugin and Iona have high potential in this matchup
Yes, i am on a 1/1 split. All 4 of my games yesterday were either t3 gifts or t3 wrath or t3 TKS.
As deezy said, a small nombo when i wrath the board with TKS on the field, but its a small price to pay and id do it 9 times outta 10. I feel like 2 to 3 is the right amount for the 75, but im waiting on the guy testing 4.
Edit: its a small sample size though and needs a ton more testing.
Saw that article, pretty similar list except i run 4 gifts and condescend instead of spell snare.
Can anyone go in depth comparing the 2? Personally i like me my scry 2, but cant argue with a one mana hard counter to most early power plays. Also worth noting that snare is good both on the draw and on the play.
Condsecend is better in a vacuum, but Spell Snare leads to more blowouts. The deck has good late game, and Condescend only increases that, not makes it what it is. Spell Snare is also much easier to board out, which can be nice, sine the deck has a lot of things it still wants to keep in.
As for Ali Aintrazi's deck, it seems fine. I've contemplated cutting a Gifts before, always with the answer that it's too important. It might still be too important, but you have to cut something. I cut a Thirst instead of Gifts in my list, I felt like that was the better option. I'm still unconvinced about TKS, I don't think it's an awful decision, I'm just unsure if it's good enough to merit a second copy.
I actually think Spell Snare is going to be very important, personally. It's Modern, the 2-drop is the most important CMC for about half the field. I feel like hitting a Blighted Agent or something with it is going to be our only hope versus Infect and other fast decks that will swarm you.
I think the question is whether we want Oblivion Stone, Terminus, or Day of Judgment for the third sweeper. Our resident UW Tron expert seems to want the O-stone, while Ali Aintrazi wants the Day of Judgment.
These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Im interested in trying spell snare myself, though i really do love condsecend so not sure..
Personally, I tried ostone in the past (along with academy ruins) and in super long grindy games, it was decent. But our deck prevails late game anyways, so it felt a little overkill. Also, it was a little awkward blowing up our own signets.
And i dont think ali wants the day of judgement, I'm pretty sure he looked at some recent lists and copied what was there. I'm heavily inclined to replace day with either terminus or hallowed burial. The upside is super important (i run into boggles and voice/finks etc a lot). Also, being able to do an instant speed terminus (if its the first card drawn from thirst) seems super spicy.
Im interested in trying spell snare myself, though i really do love condsecend so not sure..
Personally, I tried ostone in the past (along with academy ruins) and in super long grindy games, it was decent. But our deck prevails late game anyways, so it felt a little overkill. Also, it was a little awkward blowing up our own signets.
And i dont think ali wants the day of judgement, I'm pretty sure he looked at some recent lists and copied what was there. I'm heavily inclined to replace day with either terminus or hallowed burial. The upside is super important (i run into boggles and voice/finks etc a lot). Also, being able to do an instant speed terminus (if its the first card drawn from thirst) seems super spicy.
I find in general, I want more ways to Wrath as soon as possible rather than the small upsides. I've tested Hallowed Burial a lot, especially in UWR. It was good only when Pod was at 15 or 20% of the meta, whatever it was at. If you're not playing enough matchups where bottoming cards is relevant, it's not good enough.
Did you wake up the day of the big tournament and feel fantastic? Find a $20 bill in the pocket of the jeans that you forgot about? Walk into Starbucks and the cute barista slip you his/her number? Pop into a convenience store, buy a scratch ticket and win the jackpot? Great! Sleeve up Terminus - You're going to be miracleing it at the perfect times everytime you need it!
Not the luckiest person in the world? Terminus is going to be sitting in your hand as a 6 mana wrath while you stare down a goblin guide and monastary swiftspear.
Come on people - are you really trying to justify playing Terminus in a deck with no manipulation of the top cards of your deck? Modern is a FAST format. There are going to be games where you gifts for your wraths and they give you terminus knowing they get an entire extra turn to keep attacking you.
Yeah, it's about being able to cast Wrath as early as possible. When I tested other options, they were just a bit slow in far too many scenarios. Believe me, I tested Hallowed Burial, Terminus, Martial Coup, and Devastation Tide. You'd rather be casting as soon as you can and not getting the clunkiness for some potential payoff. Part of the value of playing the triple Wrath is the fact that you can force one into your hand, and then cast it the following turn. You can't really do as much with a Terminus, it's just too clunky, and you all probably suspected that.
I have actively played Hallowed Burial in UWR Control, but again, the perfect meta for it when everyone's playing Pod and Boggles was at an all-time high after it came second at the Player's Championships. This is probably not the ideal meta for it.
I'm more interested in trying to predict the meta. I wonder if I can get data on it soon, or if it's too early.
Did you wake up the day of the big tournament and feel fantastic? Find a $20 bill in the pocket of the jeans that you forgot about? Walk into Starbucks and the cute barista slip you his/her number? Pop into a convenience store, buy a scratch ticket and win the jackpot? Great! Sleeve up Terminus - You're going to be miracleing it at the perfect times everytime you need it!
Not the luckiest person in the world? Terminus is going to be sitting in your hand as a 6 mana wrath while you stare down a goblin guide and monastary swiftspear.
Come on people - are you really trying to justify playing Terminus in a deck with no manipulation of the top cards of your deck? Modern is a FAST format. There are going to be games where you gifts for your wraths and they give you terminus knowing they get an entire extra turn to keep attacking you.
The only scenario where terminus is stuck in your hand against a swift spear and goblin guide is if its in your opening hand or in your first draw. Any other time, you would just play it for miracle no? (a turn or 2 faster than you could have wrathed). And if you draw it into an open board, we're ahead anyways. Obviously, there's a chance for a few clunky draws here and there, but I think it's worth considering. I mean bigdeezyrider has been loving it and results speak for themselves.
Scapeshift had a 33% conversion rate for Top 8 in the Dutch Open. Part of me thinks there's a good strategy we can use, maybe grind some life with ThopterSword and throw them off with Spellskite. The other part wants to Gifts for Dispel, Overwhelming Denial, Last Word, and Negate. Last Word is almost certainly too janky, but we also have Aven Mindcensor and Shadow of Doubt.
These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Did you wake up the day of the big tournament and feel fantastic? Find a $20 bill in the pocket of the jeans that you forgot about? Walk into Starbucks and the cute barista slip you his/her number? Pop into a convenience store, buy a scratch ticket and win the jackpot? Great! Sleeve up Terminus - You're going to be miracleing it at the perfect times everytime you need it!
Not the luckiest person in the world? Terminus is going to be sitting in your hand as a 6 mana wrath while you stare down a goblin guide and monastary swiftspear.
Come on people - are you really trying to justify playing Terminus in a deck with no manipulation of the top cards of your deck? Modern is a FAST format. There are going to be games where you gifts for your wraths and they give you terminus knowing they get an entire extra turn to keep attacking you.
Gotta agree with this. I've been thinking really hard about Terminus because I am anticipating a rise in Abzan CoCo decks, but I really don't think it's worth doing unless you can reliably set it up. So my thought is to run four Terminus and then a bunch of manipulation (Telling Time, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, etc.) I sure wouldn't want Terminus stuck in my hand when facing down a Boggle or a Goblin Horde. That said, Looting into it is pretty sweet. I just don't think UW Tron is going to be doing that.
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The deck is still in flux, We're currently unsure how the best way to integrate Thopter Sword is. The primer has some really solid examples of pre set gifts piles if you want to check it out. Gifts takes time to figure out how to play because it depends so much on your list, and the current game state.
In general you seem to have a strong idea of what you are doing, Gifts for Rites + Fatty of choice in good matchup is game ending when it's safe to pull the trigger, but almost every other situation depends on where you are. Sometimes you want to gifts for counterspells and board wipes. Sometimes you want to gifts for better ways to cycle through your deck. Sometimes you need to gifts for lands.
Just some things of notes when playing gifts. Gifts for another Gifts is often really strong in grindy matchups. People rarely want to give you another Gifts because it just helps you cycle through your deck so quickly. Gifts for Emrakul is also strong because recycling our deck is often something that can be backbreaking to the opponent.
@bigdeezyrider
Our decks are pretty different but I can understand most of the choices. The only one I don't really understand is the Ulamog. I'm curious why you are running him over Wurmcoil Engine or Karn / Ugin.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
@Da_Head
What matchups did you feel that tks was very strong in, and where was it weak?: Strong: Literally all of them. You appear on your face to be a control deck to most opponents, but casting TKS and taking their best card, and having either pressure or a reasonable blocker is great. It beat down and blocked well against Infect, Pilfered GDD and K-Commands against Jund, Chords against Abzan Company. It Truly was the MVP of the tournament, and would love to figure out how to get the 4th in the 75 (not sure if main or sideboard).
When did you find yourself gifting for the thopter combo instead of the unburial plan? What matchups did you find the combo great, and where did you side it out?: When unburial rites was actively bad (against 3 color midrange decks) you GET TO THE THOPTAAAAAAAAAAAS, as that completely outgrinds the midrange decks, and if you happen to trip and fall over Elesh Norn, your opponent just dies. You rarely if ever board out the combo (except against infect and combos). Those decks are too fast or don't care about thopters (because against Infect gifts is best reserved for Elesh), so you bring in counterspells instead. We aren't necessarily trying to beat our opponent over the head with thopters. We are lulling them to sleep, and thopters are the back door to victory.
Terminus vs hallowed burial. Which do you like better overall?: I am unsure. Like I said, Burial is much easier to cast if you open on it, but in games where you draw either of them on a non-empty board, holy moly is Terminus insane. If you draw it on an empty board, you are winning!! and have time to get to it. Probably going to stick with my guns and go Terminus for now. Could be subject to change.
This is my current iteration: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/555214-uw-tron?comment=2169
Any thoughts on it? (Your points about terminus and tks have piqued my interest): Thought 1: Literally one too many mana sources. Our decks are almost identical in mana base, but I don't want to go over 29 mana sources (personal preference), because any more than that in modern feels like you are in Noah's great flood. Thought 2: I hate Snapcaster in this deck, because I never felt like there was enough upside for him, which is how I reached TKS in the first place, digging for more interactive spells. I occasionally missed being able to path again against infect and aggressive stratagems, but I never shaped gifts piles where wrath of god was the main target, often times you are dead if that is the case even if you do wrath.
Deck looks fine to me otherwise, just based on personal preference, which is why you see me with big dumb idiot eldrazi's and you have ugin (I wanted to fit Ugin into my main as well, but that would have been all of the greed in the world, and too many bombs, throwing off the ratios).
Bonus Thought: I like Sundering Titan. Might steal that.
@TheDasuri: Ulamog was the most recent addition that I saw people on this board playing and I fell in love with it. I wasn't a fan of Wurmcoil Engine in this deck ever, as it felt like it didn't do enough, but could be insane if you are looping it with Ruins. I also mentally sculpted situations where I was figuring out how I could bail myself out of all sorts of different awkward spots, like what happens if my Emrakul gets O-Ringed, then I cast ulamog and exile permanents (forgetting that ugin could also cover that situation). Being able to attack however is not irrelevant. I Unburial Rites the Ulamog in multiple different situations that day that led to victories against the combo decks because of the clock. I am still up in the air on which one I want more. If Jeskai is on the rise then it is Ugin. Otherwise, Ulamog.
@John Doe:
Seeiong your deck, you cut Wurmcoil Engine because the Thopter / Sword combo works wonders for the Jund and Burn Matchups (where Wurmcoil usually works best), so how's your matchup for those two? I understant that once assembled, the combo can actually do wonders in other matchups (Junk, UWR, Infect), but have you found the heavier GY dependance to be worth the removal of WE?: Jund matchup is a literal coin flip, but it is the most polar coin flip you have ever heard of. If your opponent draws Liliana, it is 0/100. If not, 95/5. Like a turn 3 Liliana is almost unbeatable, and if they don't draw it, they are drawing stuff that you interact with with random cards, and it is pretty easy from there. Burn is a race. They try to kill you before turn 5 or flood the board with creatures. You try to put Iona into play. Whoever does that first wins. Then post sideboard you still have that plan, but also, you have more countermagic, discard and lifegain, making you what feels like a slight favorite (55/45 overall I think)
I can easily relate to the Terminus case, but there's something in the extra two mana (comparing to DOJ) that makes me wonder. Against "die" effects, i understand its great, and will try it (finally, a reason to use my playset).: Again a player preference piece. The Wrath I felt stupid and missed out on was actually O-Stone. Won't forget that though.
I thought about TKS precisely because of the goodness it bring against combo / control decks, but never found out the right number (was trying with either 1 or 4), so 2 is the sweetspot you found?
I used to use two Condescent because of both the scry and because my meta had more RG tron in it (more hard counters helped a little), but i can understand the case for SS.: I would play 4 total in the 75. For curve considerations in the main, 2 was the perfect number, but I am aching to get the third main. Wouldn't play 4 in the main, but would love it out of the board as the third one is currently. SS was just out of respect for the expectation of TF decks. It wasn't really great over the course of the day, but it was acceptable.
Regarding Terastodon, since you intend to "fold" to the RG tron matchup, have you considered Blazing Archon? He should be better against certain decks that pack creatures that Elesh Norn can't deal with (new Eldrazi lists, living End, etç)?: Also worth noting. It doesn't necessarily have to be a big dumb uncastable. It just has to be something that is useful. the Don was not even that.
Invasive Surgery: Nope. Not even close. It is difficult for this deck to get to delirium. If you get there however card is great! I just don't see myself using that because there are far more instants that could cause me grief than sorceries, so my narrow counter of choice remains dispel.
https://cardknocklifepodcast.wordpress.com/2016/04/12/modern-uw-gifts-tron/
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Thanks for the writeup! I look forward to see what changes you make in the future as we continue to iterate on this deck.
How did it perform for you? Are you trying it along with thopter/sword?
As deezy said, a small nombo when i wrath the board with TKS on the field, but its a small price to pay and id do it 9 times outta 10. I feel like 2 to 3 is the right amount for the 75, but im waiting on the guy testing 4.
Edit: its a small sample size though and needs a ton more testing.
Can anyone go in depth comparing the 2? Personally i like me my scry 2, but cant argue with a one mana hard counter to most early power plays. Also worth noting that snare is good both on the draw and on the play.
As for Ali Aintrazi's deck, it seems fine. I've contemplated cutting a Gifts before, always with the answer that it's too important. It might still be too important, but you have to cut something. I cut a Thirst instead of Gifts in my list, I felt like that was the better option. I'm still unconvinced about TKS, I don't think it's an awful decision, I'm just unsure if it's good enough to merit a second copy.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
I think the question is whether we want Oblivion Stone, Terminus, or Day of Judgment for the third sweeper. Our resident UW Tron expert seems to want the O-stone, while Ali Aintrazi wants the Day of Judgment.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Personally, I tried ostone in the past (along with academy ruins) and in super long grindy games, it was decent. But our deck prevails late game anyways, so it felt a little overkill. Also, it was a little awkward blowing up our own signets.
And i dont think ali wants the day of judgement, I'm pretty sure he looked at some recent lists and copied what was there. I'm heavily inclined to replace day with either terminus or hallowed burial. The upside is super important (i run into boggles and voice/finks etc a lot). Also, being able to do an instant speed terminus (if its the first card drawn from thirst) seems super spicy.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Not the luckiest person in the world? Terminus is going to be sitting in your hand as a 6 mana wrath while you stare down a goblin guide and monastary swiftspear.
Come on people - are you really trying to justify playing Terminus in a deck with no manipulation of the top cards of your deck? Modern is a FAST format. There are going to be games where you gifts for your wraths and they give you terminus knowing they get an entire extra turn to keep attacking you.
I have actively played Hallowed Burial in UWR Control, but again, the perfect meta for it when everyone's playing Pod and Boggles was at an all-time high after it came second at the Player's Championships. This is probably not the ideal meta for it.
I'm more interested in trying to predict the meta. I wonder if I can get data on it soon, or if it's too early.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
The only scenario where terminus is stuck in your hand against a swift spear and goblin guide is if its in your opening hand or in your first draw. Any other time, you would just play it for miracle no? (a turn or 2 faster than you could have wrathed). And if you draw it into an open board, we're ahead anyways. Obviously, there's a chance for a few clunky draws here and there, but I think it's worth considering. I mean bigdeezyrider has been loving it and results speak for themselves.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Gotta agree with this. I've been thinking really hard about Terminus because I am anticipating a rise in Abzan CoCo decks, but I really don't think it's worth doing unless you can reliably set it up. So my thought is to run four Terminus and then a bunch of manipulation (Telling Time, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, etc.) I sure wouldn't want Terminus stuck in my hand when facing down a Boggle or a Goblin Horde. That said, Looting into it is pretty sweet. I just don't think UW Tron is going to be doing that.