Apologies for the bump, I'm writing some words about this deck, and for those who are NOT on Breach, can you give me some reasons why and what your Win Con's are instead?
Kikimite for example would be because of the Tempo plan A/B.
Thing, may be..well I dont know.
Jace, because you want to play UR Control.
I'm just having a hard time figuring out why I would not be on Breach with this deck.
No its certainly not Twin, and I side out the combo quite a bit, especially against Black, but as your 'I'm going in blind game 1, in an unknown meta' is Breach not the optimal play, and if not why?
I'm just looking for some counter opinions. I keep winning with breach (Burn, Mill, Grixis Control this morning) and am wondering if/why others do something different, thats all. :]
OK, Madcap vs Affinity/Storm/Burn, I can get behind that, thats the kind of info I'm looking for thats all, as the 'primer' for this thread is outdated to say the least.
What arguments are there for the pure (Jace) control version, or Thing in the Ice as the main?
I've been good with it, its a change I made just for these last 4 games. Even with Twin I used to shave parts of the combo Main deck, and with Opt now? I'm ok with this. Breach or Emy alone are just plain dead, and if I dont have it in my hand turns 1/2 then they are not discard/extraction targets so...ok. Maybe its greedy, but it hasnt burned me.
Leak has been good. It still wins counter wars when it needs to, and since the action for us is early (Serum, Remand/Leak, Moon, Cryptic) if we are even remotely trying to curve, its fine. When its late game, meh, its late game, and we see who has drawn to their outs better.
I still like the 2nd Electrolyze main, velocity is very important, and while Abrade will almost never be dead the difference is minimal I would imagine if we looked at our common opponents for 2 vs 3 damage, and the ability to blow out a few 2/1 or 0/1 dorks is golden. 2 Abrade in the side for Hollow One/Affinity is key of course. I was trying a Lavamancer (2 actually) in the side, but since we see (or at least I do) GY hate the moment people see Islands, I've dropped them.
Snare feels like cheating, honestly. Ramps up the salt levels a good 50% when you cast it, every time.
I'm actually heading to my shop, going to swap out some UWR staples I'm not using and see how far I can get in foiling this out.
People just dont bother to even try and play around 'twin like' decks anymore, I swear.
EDIT x 2: Punt vs Storm.
Game 1, Moon, Breach.
Game 2, I cannot find either, and my fist full's of burn is not enough to prevent the Goblin's from storming me.
Game 3, Long, lots of action on both sides, comes down to near top decks, when I get stupid, at 7, cast Sweltering to kill a mass of Goblins and Baral, leaving me at 4 Mana, with Cryptic, and him at 1 card. I cast...Thing, leaving up 2 useless Mana....He plays another land, and Past in Flames, GG.
Not to say I had it locked up of course, but I like my odds when I am top decking more so than Storm...
EDIT x 3: Another win against Burn, lost Game 1, win Game 2 at 1 Life (Thing bounced his team), with Game 3 at 5, with a late Breach. Love the deck.
Oh, man, you wanna talk punts?! I had a hilariously bad punt at FNM this past week.
This was the first week I've ran the madcap package in the board, and also the first time trying wurmcoil (never got to play it, although I honestly think that having it be a mana leak or something early game is better, so probably changing it).
Anyways, R1 I'm playing against R/G Eldrazi. Game 1 I T5 breach. Game 2 he TKS x2 between turn 2 and 3, dead 2 turns later. Game 3, I madcap T4 at 16 life. The look on his face has me knowing that I locked down this game (he later admitted to sideboarding all his removal/abrades) and as I start flipping cards, I see a wurmcoil. As the 16th card. I laughed my ass off while shaking his hands and signing the match slip. Felt bad man, but hey, I'll never make THAT mistake again!
I've been seeing the Thing version 5-0'ing a few times in the competitive leagues. I've tried it myself and didn't have much luck, although admittedly I only tried it for 1-2 FNM's; I didn't do any games on MTGO. Is it better in this meta? I'm going to the SCG open in a few weeks and while I'd rather play breach, I also want to present the strongest option available. Anyone have any thoughts?
I still feel that going in blind Breach is the better Game 1 plan, but I bring in my 3 TiTi very often, and it wins games.
So do you think the TiTi sb plan is more effective? I've actually found the madcap package to be pretty effective versus burn and hollow one, but I haven't given the thing package much mileage in comparison. I gotta admit that the allure of running Thing MB does give us more flex spots. Idk. I tried running Ross Merriam's straight blue moon control deck and absolutely despised it. It's also quite possible that I'm basing too much off of my LGS meta versus the open field meta, especially since I never tried the straight control/titi version on mtgo. I always get the deck jitters coming up to a tournament, it's probably smarter to just fine tune my breach list and go with that (and not blame the deck and tell myself "Told you so" if I don't perform the best).
I dont know that its more effective, only that it is effective for me to bring it out of the side. Main Deck Thing lists I've played have always run into things like Galvanic Blast Affinity...or threats that run over Thing, and then your options in that game are...die?
I like it a lot out of the side though, but again I have not tried the Madcap sideboard.
Galvanic Blast kills you if it isn’t killing Thing. Thing is an out to Boogles, CoCo, Elves, Dredge, Hollow One and such. It’s certainly a very good spell for this shell.
Right, its very good, but I dont like counting on it. It requires too much investment, and can simply be bounced, removed, or evaded. Yes its good, I run 3!, but as the Main deck plan A? Not a fan personally. It works better as plan b, forcing a ticking clock on our opponents plans.
I've personally never liked the singleton Spirebluff. Whenever I absolutely MUST have the 4th or 5th land come in untapped...or my other land is a Sulfur Falls...just feels terrible.
This is actually really close to a UR Control list I tried before coming back to breach, and the 0/4 Thing getting folded by Galvanic's was exactly why I stopped playing it. :]
Fun, but not enough 'unfair' for me, and 2 Moon..seems low for that 'if I dont slam this right now on turn 3' type games.
Speaking of.
2-0 Slivers (Moon both games on Turn 3...sorry man)
1-2 UWR (I had nothing game 1, Thing in the sides bailed me game 2, loss to burn out game 3)
2-0 Prismatic Omen Valakut (burn to 15, Breach and then Thing Game 2 with a Moon)
2-0 Eldrazi and Taxes. (He punted Game 1 by not choking me out of lands when he had a leonin arbiter and 2 GQ on the field, instead he tapped out for...something useless, and I mooned him. Took a few rounds of beats, then Ambush Viper saved me. A whole lot of passing turns while I draw into Breach, Game 2 he Crucibles, and tries to choke me out of basics..not going to happen, Thing gets Path, I work him down with some burn. Land another Thing, Visions, setting up Opt and Bolt...feels good. He goes to cast Thalia, I Abrade his Crucible of Worlds in response, and he knows he's dead. I Electrolyze the Thalia EOT, leaving up 1 Counter on Thing. Flip Thing, attack, he's at 8, I've got snaps and bolts and a GY, its gg.)
Thing is great, I like it a ton obviously as that was what won me 2 of those matches, but the UWR game showed the risk of thinking Creatures will save you every time. :]
Update from last night: I took my stock list and went -1 Breach, +1 Electrolyze.
2-0 Affinity: I had amazing draws. Main deck Sweltering Suns was an absolute beating of an all-star. MVP play was to counter a Ravager, bounce Inkmoth (only creature) at that point. I was hit early by a sizable Plating-equipped Vault Skirge, putting them to 25. I was able to Emrakul them to 10 and had to finish the rest on Snapcaster beats. Game 2 was 100% combo out, all my removal and Jaces in. Won by killing everything on site and Jace TMS ultimate.
2-1 UW Control: Long, great, grindy games. Won game 1 after they tapped out for a Teferi and I slammed Breach. Game 2 stuck on lands, and got out-valued. Game 3 landed a turn 3 Moon on the play, they were stuck on lands, and got there with Clique and Keranos. Combo 100% removed for games 2 and 3.
0-2 UR Swans: I have no meaningful way to interact with a resolved Swans of Bryn Argoll. Especially when the rest of the entire deck is nothing but cantrips and counterspells. Game 2, he rode a Kefnet to victory. This matchup feels literally impossible without an amazing draw and them whiffing and mulliganning.
0-2 Burn: Kept a somewhat slow hand on the play, made a misplay on land drops that cost me a turn 5 combo. Game 2 looked like it would be amazing, but I died holding two dispels as my opponent drew and cast 2 Rift Bolts and 3 Lava Spikes.
I don't feel I am missing anything with only 3 Breach. T5 combo is pretty unreliable anyway, so I would rather have the extra interaction and draw. I like it so far.
I dont like the non-bo between Thing bouncing your Tokens. At that point it shouldnt matter most likely as a flipped thing is almost always a win, but still.
I'm actually going to go back over all my MTGO games and track just how often Moon has either forced a concede, or locked them out so hard I could win with Snaps beats.
If I was running YP/Thing as my creatures, you would still keep in Snaps yes?
Yeah I know in theory its sound, its just never worked out for me in other shells, like Delver or UR Prowess for example.
EDIT: Games for today.
Loss to Jund, 1-2. Not much to say, hand got shredded, any threat neutralized.
Win over Merfolk, 2-1. Breach game 1 after a Moon locked out his Mutavaults, got RUN OVER curved game 2, and then Breach game 3.
Win over Elves, 2-0. Breach game 1, Thing bounced his board (wouldnt have been close but he had Spirit so I couldnt sweep) and that was that.
Win over Kiki-Chord 2-1. Loss game 1, I couldnt figure out what he was doing as he had a TON of counters, and a Wall of Roots. He combo's me out after I'm stumbling. Game 2, I board out the combo after all the control he presented, in comes Keranos, he pulls me super far ahead, Dispel on a counter against my Electrolyze that wipes out two Pestermites seals it as I then drop a Thing. Game 3, he scoops after I start to curve out, he didnt have what it took to beat any kind of permission I guess.
Win over UW Miracles 2-1. Game 1, Snaps and Burn. Game 2, I side out the combo, bring in Jace, Keranos, all the counters and Thing, we grind it out, he lands a few Timely Reinforcements, gets me but we bleed the clock. Game 3, I bring in the combo, out the things (since its miracles and he had a lot of removal) and the Jaces. Turn 8 Breach with counter backup gets me there.
Yeah I know in theory its sound, its just never worked out for me in other shells, like Delver or UR Prowess for example.
EDIT: Games for today.
Loss to Jund, 1-2. Not much to say, hand got shredded, any threat neutralized.
Win over Merfolk, 2-1. Breach game 1 after a Moon locked out his Mutavaults, got RUN OVER curved game 2, and then Breach game 3.
Win over Elves, 2-0. Breach game 1, Thing bounced his board (wouldnt have been close but he had Spirit so I couldnt sweep) and that was that.
Win over Kiki-Chord 2-1. Loss game 1, I couldnt figure out what he was doing as he had a TON of counters, and a Wall of Roots. He combo's me out after I'm stumbling. Game 2, I board out the combo after all the control he presented, in comes Keranos, he pulls me super far ahead, Dispel on a counter against my Electrolyze that wipes out two Pestermites seals it as I then drop a Thing. Game 3, he scoops after I start to curve out, he didnt have what it took to beat any kind of permission I guess.
Win over UW Miracles 2-1. Game 1, Snaps and Burn. Game 2, I side out the combo, bring in Jace, Keranos, all the counters and Thing, we grind it out, he lands a few Timely Reinforcements, gets me but we bleed the clock. Game 3, I bring in the combo, out the things (since its miracles and he had a lot of removal) and the Jaces. Turn 8 Breach with counter backup gets me there.
Are you still running the 3/3 of the combo? Have you seen any issues with it yet? I'm tempted to try it, but since I just bought my 4th breach last week I have a part of me saying "you just bought it, play it!" But I also had the same problem when I bought my JtMS and was jamming 2x of them in my kiki moon list just because I spent the money on them. I need to worry more about the optimal list instead of getting my "value" from my cards.
I'm going to FNM tonight and I'm going to try the Thing in the board versus the madcap package. I feel that the early aggression decks need more help than 1-2 noninteractive decks that get dunked by emperion. Gaining +5-10% edge against the field instead of plus 15% in 1-2 MU is probably the better SB strategy.
Have you made any other significant changes to your list? https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1154089#paper This is the newest list that I"m giving a try, except -1 emrakul +1 snapcaster and -1 sweltering and +1 cryptic. I personally love running 3-4 cryptic, but is that a good idea atm?
Yeah the 3/3 has been fine. Both cards being mostly dead on their own, I just hope to draw in with all the cantrips. Hour of Devastation is actually useful, even if it is expensive at 5 mana, I had a Colourless Eldrazi win I didnt post up from 2 days ago on my other PC so I couldnt look it over yesterday, but wiping out Smashers is exactly why its there.
I'm still on 3 Cryptics main, its a critical card. My list hasnt changed since last week, I havent done the numbers but I'm feeling like I'm close to 70% win rate.
Cool list for sure. I agree in this scenario that AV is too critical to cut down on, not huge on the counter suite at all. I like the min-max fetches though, not many people bother with that edge case.
I agree with the -1 Roast for +1 Abrade, 3 Snare seems like a lot, but a 21 land mana base would be more than fine, especially if you up remands at the expense of a Leak or Knot?
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Kikimite for example would be because of the Tempo plan A/B.
Thing, may be..well I dont know.
Jace, because you want to play UR Control.
I'm just having a hard time figuring out why I would not be on Breach with this deck.
Spirits
I'm just looking for some counter opinions. I keep winning with breach (Burn, Mill, Grixis Control this morning) and am wondering if/why others do something different, thats all. :]
Spirits
What arguments are there for the pure (Jace) control version, or Thing in the Ice as the main?
Spirits
Spirits
Oh, man, you wanna talk punts?! I had a hilariously bad punt at FNM this past week.
This was the first week I've ran the madcap package in the board, and also the first time trying wurmcoil (never got to play it, although I honestly think that having it be a mana leak or something early game is better, so probably changing it).
Anyways, R1 I'm playing against R/G Eldrazi. Game 1 I T5 breach. Game 2 he TKS x2 between turn 2 and 3, dead 2 turns later. Game 3, I madcap T4 at 16 life. The look on his face has me knowing that I locked down this game (he later admitted to sideboarding all his removal/abrades) and as I start flipping cards, I see a wurmcoil. As the 16th card. I laughed my ass off while shaking his hands and signing the match slip. Felt bad man, but hey, I'll never make THAT mistake again!
Spirits
Spirits
So do you think the TiTi sb plan is more effective? I've actually found the madcap package to be pretty effective versus burn and hollow one, but I haven't given the thing package much mileage in comparison. I gotta admit that the allure of running Thing MB does give us more flex spots. Idk. I tried running Ross Merriam's straight blue moon control deck and absolutely despised it. It's also quite possible that I'm basing too much off of my LGS meta versus the open field meta, especially since I never tried the straight control/titi version on mtgo. I always get the deck jitters coming up to a tournament, it's probably smarter to just fine tune my breach list and go with that (and not blame the deck and tell myself "Told you so" if I don't perform the best).
I like it a lot out of the side though, but again I have not tried the Madcap sideboard.
Spirits
Right, its very good, but I dont like counting on it. It requires too much investment, and can simply be bounced, removed, or evaded. Yes its good, I run 3!, but as the Main deck plan A? Not a fan personally. It works better as plan b, forcing a ticking clock on our opponents plans.
Spirits
This is actually really close to a UR Control list I tried before coming back to breach, and the 0/4 Thing getting folded by Galvanic's was exactly why I stopped playing it. :]
Fun, but not enough 'unfair' for me, and 2 Moon..seems low for that 'if I dont slam this right now on turn 3' type games.
Speaking of.
2-0 Slivers (Moon both games on Turn 3...sorry man)
1-2 UWR (I had nothing game 1, Thing in the sides bailed me game 2, loss to burn out game 3)
2-0 Prismatic Omen Valakut (burn to 15, Breach and then Thing Game 2 with a Moon)
2-0 Eldrazi and Taxes. (He punted Game 1 by not choking me out of lands when he had a leonin arbiter and 2 GQ on the field, instead he tapped out for...something useless, and I mooned him. Took a few rounds of beats, then Ambush Viper saved me. A whole lot of passing turns while I draw into Breach, Game 2 he Crucibles, and tries to choke me out of basics..not going to happen, Thing gets Path, I work him down with some burn. Land another Thing, Visions, setting up Opt and Bolt...feels good. He goes to cast Thalia, I Abrade his Crucible of Worlds in response, and he knows he's dead. I Electrolyze the Thalia EOT, leaving up 1 Counter on Thing. Flip Thing, attack, he's at 8, I've got snaps and bolts and a GY, its gg.)
Thing is great, I like it a ton obviously as that was what won me 2 of those matches, but the UWR game showed the risk of thinking Creatures will save you every time. :]
Spirits
2-0 Affinity: I had amazing draws. Main deck Sweltering Suns was an absolute beating of an all-star. MVP play was to counter a Ravager, bounce Inkmoth (only creature) at that point. I was hit early by a sizable Plating-equipped Vault Skirge, putting them to 25. I was able to Emrakul them to 10 and had to finish the rest on Snapcaster beats. Game 2 was 100% combo out, all my removal and Jaces in. Won by killing everything on site and Jace TMS ultimate.
2-1 UW Control: Long, great, grindy games. Won game 1 after they tapped out for a Teferi and I slammed Breach. Game 2 stuck on lands, and got out-valued. Game 3 landed a turn 3 Moon on the play, they were stuck on lands, and got there with Clique and Keranos. Combo 100% removed for games 2 and 3.
0-2 UR Swans: I have no meaningful way to interact with a resolved Swans of Bryn Argoll. Especially when the rest of the entire deck is nothing but cantrips and counterspells. Game 2, he rode a Kefnet to victory. This matchup feels literally impossible without an amazing draw and them whiffing and mulliganning.
0-2 Burn: Kept a somewhat slow hand on the play, made a misplay on land drops that cost me a turn 5 combo. Game 2 looked like it would be amazing, but I died holding two dispels as my opponent drew and cast 2 Rift Bolts and 3 Lava Spikes.
Still like the deck a lot.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I'm actually going to go back over all my MTGO games and track just how often Moon has either forced a concede, or locked them out so hard I could win with Snaps beats.
If I was running YP/Thing as my creatures, you would still keep in Snaps yes?
Spirits
EDIT: Games for today.
Loss to Jund, 1-2. Not much to say, hand got shredded, any threat neutralized.
Win over Merfolk, 2-1. Breach game 1 after a Moon locked out his Mutavaults, got RUN OVER curved game 2, and then Breach game 3.
Win over Elves, 2-0. Breach game 1, Thing bounced his board (wouldnt have been close but he had Spirit so I couldnt sweep) and that was that.
Win over Kiki-Chord 2-1. Loss game 1, I couldnt figure out what he was doing as he had a TON of counters, and a Wall of Roots. He combo's me out after I'm stumbling. Game 2, I board out the combo after all the control he presented, in comes Keranos, he pulls me super far ahead, Dispel on a counter against my Electrolyze that wipes out two Pestermites seals it as I then drop a Thing. Game 3, he scoops after I start to curve out, he didnt have what it took to beat any kind of permission I guess.
Win over UW Miracles 2-1. Game 1, Snaps and Burn. Game 2, I side out the combo, bring in Jace, Keranos, all the counters and Thing, we grind it out, he lands a few Timely Reinforcements, gets me but we bleed the clock. Game 3, I bring in the combo, out the things (since its miracles and he had a lot of removal) and the Jaces. Turn 8 Breach with counter backup gets me there.
Spirits
Are you still running the 3/3 of the combo? Have you seen any issues with it yet? I'm tempted to try it, but since I just bought my 4th breach last week I have a part of me saying "you just bought it, play it!" But I also had the same problem when I bought my JtMS and was jamming 2x of them in my kiki moon list just because I spent the money on them. I need to worry more about the optimal list instead of getting my "value" from my cards.
I'm going to FNM tonight and I'm going to try the Thing in the board versus the madcap package. I feel that the early aggression decks need more help than 1-2 noninteractive decks that get dunked by emperion. Gaining +5-10% edge against the field instead of plus 15% in 1-2 MU is probably the better SB strategy.
Have you made any other significant changes to your list? https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1154089#paper This is the newest list that I"m giving a try, except -1 emrakul +1 snapcaster and -1 sweltering and +1 cryptic. I personally love running 3-4 cryptic, but is that a good idea atm?
I'm still on 3 Cryptics main, its a critical card. My list hasnt changed since last week, I havent done the numbers but I'm feeling like I'm close to 70% win rate.
@BloodyRabbit: Do you have a list?
Spirits
I agree with the -1 Roast for +1 Abrade, 3 Snare seems like a lot, but a 21 land mana base would be more than fine, especially if you up remands at the expense of a Leak or Knot?
Spirits