MTG Salvation

I still don't like 2 Jace in the main. I think you're definitely going to have scenarios where you have 2 Jace in hand, 3 mana, and your opponent will kill you with 2 power creatures while you have a Bridge on the board.

And 1 Jace in the deck is in my opinion, a better way to deal with the opposing Jace issue than running more Thoughtseize. Now I do agree running more Thoughtseize is correct, because a lot of people will want to be trying out Jace and BBE tomorrow, that being an answer to the opposing Jace problem is in my opinion, incorrect.

Quote from Skitzafreak »

I still don't like 2 Jace in the main. I think you're definitely going to have scenarios where you have 2 Jace in hand, 3 mana, and your opponent will kill you with 2 power creatures while you have a Bridge on the board.

And 1 Jace in the deck is in my opinion, a better way to deal with the opposing Jace issue than running more Thoughtseize. Now I do agree running more Thoughtseize is correct, because a lot of people will want to be trying out Jace and BBE tomorrow, that being an answer to the opposing Jace problem is in my opinion, incorrect.

That scenario is also why I moved a brutality to the main as well. To deal with a higher concentration of higher CMC spells.
I could even see cutting an inquisition/thoughtseize for a second brutality main.

Another idea is to remove pyxis entirely from the main and replace it with more discard.
JTMS fills a similiar role to pyxis in theory.

My gut tells me we want two Jaces... I could be wrong. But I can't shake that feeling.

Quote from axman »

That scenario is also why I moved a brutality to the main as well. To deal with a higher concentration of higher CMC spells.
I could even see cutting an inquisition/thoughtseize for a second brutality main.

Another idea is to remove pyxis entirely from the main and replace it with more discard.
JTMS fills a similiar role to pyxis in theory.

My gut tells me we want two Jaces... I could be wrong. But I can't shake that feeling.

So first off, the Brutality in the main is a good answer to that, but I feel like you want as many, or more Brutalities than you have card you don't want clumped in your hand. With that said, I don't agree with cutting Inquisitions or Thoughtseizes for another Brutality, as the 1 mana discard is leagues better than Brutality unless you are playing against specifically Burn.

And yes, Jace fills a similar role to Pyxis, however there are very important differences that need to be noted. First, is that Jace is sorcery speed. SO you can't use it on your opponent's turn, and you can do it in response to a draw. That is a pretty huge set back. Second, is that Jace is a temporary solution. For example let us say we're against Death's Shadow and we fatesteal a Kolaghan's Command to the bottom of our opponent's deck. All our opponent has to do is crack a fetch and suddenly that Command is once again anywhere in the deck. If you're looking at Jace as a mill rock, Pyxis is 100x better.

Quote from Skitzafreak »

Quote from axman »

That scenario is also why I moved a brutality to the main as well. To deal with a higher concentration of higher CMC spells.
I could even see cutting an inquisition/thoughtseize for a second brutality main.

Another idea is to remove pyxis entirely from the main and replace it with more discard.
JTMS fills a similiar role to pyxis in theory.

My gut tells me we want two Jaces... I could be wrong. But I can't shake that feeling.

So first off, the Brutality in the main is a good answer to that, but I feel like you want as many, or more Brutalities than you have card you don't want clumped in your hand. With that said, I don't agree with cutting Inquisitions or Thoughtseizes for another Brutality, as the 1 mana discard is leagues better than Brutality unless you are playing against specifically Burn.

And yes, Jace fills a similar role to Pyxis, however there are very important differences that need to be noted. First, is that Jace is sorcery speed. SO you can't use it on your opponent's turn, and you can do it in response to a draw. That is a pretty huge set back. Second, is that Jace is a temporary solution. For example let us say we're against Death's Shadow and we fatesteal a Kolaghan's Command to the bottom of our opponent's deck. All our opponent has to do is crack a fetch and suddenly that Command is once again anywhere in the deck. If you're looking at Jace as a mill rock, Pyxis is 100x better.

I would agree with that. Hence why I am not 100% sure on the exact card distribution.
ATM I am leaving one pyrxis in the main and only playing one brutality. Going to have to test to figure out the actual numbers.

And it could turn out Jace is just bad in Lantern. It certainly wouldn't surprise me. But I do think it warrents testing.
My hunch... we'll want 2 or 0.

I do find it funny you are suggesting the numbers of Jace wanted in Lantern will either be 0 or 2. And here I am suggesting 1.

Why do you think you need 2? I'm not going to argue the 0, because yeah, Jace could just be incredibly horrible. But I want the justification for 2 of them.

Quote from Skitzafreak »

I do find it funny you are suggesting the numbers of Jace wanted in Lantern will either be 0 or 2. And here I am suggesting 1.

Why do you think you need 2? I'm not going to argue the 0, because yeah, Jace could just be incredibly horrible. But I want the justification for 2 of them.

Honestly.. I don't know. Just a hunch. It's probably legacy wearing off on my where Jace is a solid 2 of.
I think, part of it, is you nearly always want the jace in play as quickly as possible. But... you don't want to draw more then 1. Ever.

If you played only one jace (especially with no real draw power) you would draw it so inconsistently it would be largely irrelevant.
That's why I feel like its either zero or two. Also - I feel like you don't want to play more than 2 four-mana spells.

Effectively Jace takes the tez spot. And I wouldn't want to just play just one tez for the same reason.

EDIT: If I did cut a thoughtseize for a second brutality, I would SB the 4th seize.

I've been thinking about updating c0ckatrice to test the raw power of the deck with Whir of Invention for myself as I haven't played in months. I want to feel this Whir version first hand and not just watch games or read about it. But honestly, I am not interested in the least bit about Jace... a really nice pet indeed, but not really what Lantern seeks.

4cmc winmore, doesn't win on the spot or next turn, potential of needling yourself to disable all the people who will also play it. Im sure theres more cons to it that will show after tests.

Im more concerned with BBE rising up again, it was the card in Jund that I hated most during the early deck development... having a lock get destroyed by BBE cascading into Decay was about as sad as an upside down turtle...

Quote from zerodown »

Im more concerned with BBE rising up again, it was the card in Jund that I hated most during the early deck development... having a lock get destroyed by BBE cascading into Decay was about as sad as an upside down turtle...

I heavily agree. BBE and cascade will be this the current lantern’s demise. I have a feeling surgical extraction and welding jar will make bigger returns mb just to survive.

Any other suggestions about unboning ourselves?

I don't know; I'm not that scared of BBE. We still can control the top of their library so the chance of it lucking them into a KCommand isn't high unless they side out all of their <3 CMC spells. Also, thoughtseize that shiet. I am probably going to swap an Opal for or a Jar tho.

It seems like most of the posters here don't remember playing against Jund in ye olden days as Lantern. It's pretty miserable. The entire list changes, it isn't just the fact that BBE is jammed into the current death's shadow lists. They still run the 6-8 turn 1 discard, but they play a full 4 of Dark Confidant, 4 Liliana, Scavenging Ooze main (it isn't some back breaker, but it is another piece of relevant interaction). The presence of BBE does mean they come down on the number of Abrupt Decay mainboard, but it also means they go up on K Command because it is so versatile. Against DS Jund, you just need a bridge and to protect it from decay. Against BBE Jund, you need the needle for Lili, extra rocks to control against dark confidant, loss of ruins and codex shredders because of ooze, increased K Command count, as well as BBE casts that can be very hard to control, especially if the opponent is smart.

The bigger problem is the metagame as a whole. More Jund (which is hard, but not insane) means more Tron, which is insane. The UW control matches with Jace should be good for us though.

EDIT: If the Jund lists look more like this
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/welcome-back-bloodbraid-elf/
Then we might not be in a terrible place. 4 hard answers to Bridge, a little less turn 1 discard, and we know our needle target from the beginning. Still leaves us with some potentially scary cascades and confidants to fight through. Tron preying on Jund makes us collateral though still.

Ethersworn cannonist just became much more viable. I may test 1 mb.

I was really scared of BBE to begin with too, then I played a few games against bloody Jund and realized it is basically a sorcery speed cantrip. It's only threatening when they have a bunch of lands on top their deck. BBE does nothing when both players can see that Goyf sitting on top their deck.

And when the pilot is good, they know that too, and will play BBE at the right time. If they have 2 dark confidants in play, you are already strained.


EDIT: LSV agrees with me too https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/jace-and-bloodbraid-unbanned-the-biggest-winners-losers-in-modern/

Quote from Kleronomas »

And when the pilot is good, they know that too, and will play BBE at the right time. If they have 2 dark confidants in play, you are already strained.


EDIT: LSV agrees with me too https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/jace-and-bloodbraid-unbanned-the-biggest-winners-losers-in-modern/

Thank you for the video. Although I agree with LSV with regards to BBE being very good vs us... I don't think we actually loose.
Based on his next point... he also feels like UrzaTron looses too.

I would much rather face Jund (even with BBE) then Urzatron.

I do disagree with his assertion about Jace. I don't think it's "fantastic" vs us.
At least not in the current Jace brews (we're a pithing needle deck after all).

I've done one competitive league since the unban on MTGO and ended up 4-1.

Beat three Jace Decks. My only loss was to Jund.
Beat Jund game 1 but lost to a barrage of ancient grudges. In hindsight if this match becomes popular I probably should be siding in cage and/or find room for extraction.

Quote from Duodenum »

Quote from zerodown »

Im more concerned with BBE rising up again, it was the card in Jund that I hated most during the early deck development... having a lock get destroyed by BBE cascading into Decay was about as sad as an upside down turtle...

I heavily agree. BBE and cascade will be this the current lantern’s demise. I have a feeling surgical extraction and welding jar will make bigger returns mb just to survive.

Any other suggestions about unboning ourselves?

Ah never mind. Spell played from Exile. In this case Canonist is probably a lot better, or even something weird like Uba Mask that forces them into playing one spell a turn, essentially.

Quote from Crazy Pierre »

Quote from Duodenum »

Quote from zerodown »

Im more concerned with BBE rising up again, it was the card in Jund that I hated most during the early deck development... having a lock get destroyed by BBE cascading into Decay was about as sad as an upside down turtle...

I heavily agree. BBE and cascade will be this the current lantern’s demise. I have a feeling surgical extraction and welding jar will make bigger returns mb just to survive.

Any other suggestions about unboning ourselves?

Ah never mind. Spell played from Exile. In this case Canonist is probably a lot better, or even something weird like Uba Mask that forces them into playing one spell a turn, essentially.

Honestly... BBE is good but it's not the "end of the world". Though it does mean you need a pithing needle naming liliana as soon as possible.

So a lot of people are talking about BBE being a problem. Well I have a suggestion. With the return of BBE, if you really think the card is that much of an issue, I would suggest running a few Noxious Revival. This card works two ways.

1) We are able to return whatever card may unfortunately get blown up to a cascade trigger to the top of our library so we can immediately get it back.
2) We can put a useless card in our opponent's graveyard on top of their library for them to cascade into.

I can second this. Revival has been amazing vs Jund.

Quote from Skitzafreak »

So a lot of people are talking about BBE being a problem. Well I have a suggestion. With the return of BBE, if you really think the card is that much of an issue, I would suggest running a few Noxious Revival. This card works two ways.

1) We are able to return whatever card may unfortunately get blown up to a cascade trigger to the top of our library so we can immediately get it back.
2) We can put a useless card in our opponent's graveyard on top of their library for them to cascade into.

How would we modify the 75 to fit it in?

Except we don't care if we get 1-for-1'd, 2-for-1'd, or even 4-for-1'd. We care that Bridge lands on the battlefield and stays there. Noxious Revival helps to accomplish that goal by letting you redraw countered, destroyed, and discarded Bridges, among many other uses.

I will admit Scooze is a big problem if we fight on that front. I don't know if Jund is upping their Scooze count or not.