Well I suppose it depends on what you want. AKA would you rather play x3 whirs and x2 jaces, or x4 whirs and x1 jace. We could probably go up to 2 jaces with modification to the rest of the deck. The question becomes is that worth it.
I think I'd be safe in saying it would not be worth it
I'm not so sure. JTMS is a very powerful fate-steal effect. Plus it's an insanely effective way to win the game with it's ultimate.
I might just really like that card <3
If Jace were to only be sideboard material, he is 100% worse than Tezzeret, I completely agree.
I honestly comes down to whether or not Jace is good as a general-purpose mainboard planeswalker. As he isn't good enough for a sideboard sot (which feels weird to say honestly).
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Jace may be sideboard material, but it seems very unlikely he is better than Tezzeret in the slot. He doesn't fit in what Lantern is trying to do.
Worse then Tez? I'm not sure I agree.
1) the +2 is another fate seal effect. In someways it's actually better (allows us to target ourself without milling silver bullets we may need to fetch later). The +2 effect is actually what fits into lantern control.
2) The brainstorm effect is arguably it's less powerful feature; however, it would allow us to stack the top of the deck with usless cards we can then self-mill away. Not the most effective use... but its not completely dead.
3) bounce a creature: this is actually more relevant than you would think. It gives us game against trouble creatures like tireless tracker if you draw a discard spell late.
4) It's ultimate might as well be "you win the game". Especially when you are playing mill-rocks.
I do think this could be far more powerful than Tez... but time will tell.
1) A 4 drop mill rock at sorcery speed is not what you want. Ever. Play another mill rock. If you don't have their library locked already, Jace won't really help you.
2) Your hand is empty by this point. You don't want to leave ANY cards in hand once you have bridge out. Lantern is on such a tight race to close the window for the opponent, that every turn has to get you significantly closer. A 4 drop brainstorm is not where we want to be.
3) If you have lantern and mill rocks, what are you doing drawing discard late instead of milling it? If you don't have lantern and mill rocks by the time you play jace, you probably already lost.
You are misunderstanding the role of Tezzeret. He is played almost always when you have given up being able to lantern lock an opponent. Tron and Grixis shadow being the 2 most important examples. He creates a 5/5 that attacks that very turn, and presents a new angle in the match. Jace does not provide any new angles in those matches.
1) A 4 drop mill rock at sorcery speed is not what you want. Ever. Play another mill rock. If you don't have their library locked already, Jace won't really help you.
2) Your hand is empty by this point. You don't want to leave ANY cards in hand once you have bridge out. Lantern is on such a tight race to close the window for the opponent, that every turn has to get you significantly closer. A 4 drop brainstorm is not where we want to be.
3) If you have lantern and mill rocks, what are you doing drawing discard late instead of milling it? If you don't have lantern and mill rocks by the time you play jace, you probably already lost.
You are misunderstanding the role of Tezzeret. He is played almost always when you have given up being able to lantern lock an opponent. Tron and Grixis shadow being the 2 most important examples. He creates a 5/5 that attacks that very turn, and presents a new angle in the match. Jace does not provide any new angles in those matches.
In matchups where you bring in Tez, you also leave in bridge. In fact I don't think there is any deck you bring out bridges against entirely. You may cut some... but you still leave it in.
Unless I am missing something tez is often used for its search capabilities and ultimate to quickly close the game. Especially against decks where lock is less effective or when they play stony silence (non-artifact way to close the game).
Tez - ability, for example, won't help vs Grixis Shadow when they have DS.... unless I am completely missing something.
I've never seen Tez as a pseudo-attacker. He almost always impulses for an artifact to add to your lock or drains your opponent for a ton.
And JTMS is testable. You either filter away excess stuff to mill away via Pyxis or Bell or you Fateseal down their stuff you might not want in the graveyard, and so on. If JTMS stays alive for 5 turns you've won (not impossible with Bridge out) and a comparable situation would require 3-4 mill rocks and a self-aware opponent.
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
I've never seen Tez as a pseudo-attacker. He almost always impulses for an artifact to add to your lock or drains your opponent for a ton.
And JTMS is testable. You either filter away excess stuff to mill away via Pyxis or Bell or you Fateseal down their stuff you might not want in the graveyard, and so on. If JTMS stays alive for 5 turns you've won (not impossible with Bridge out) and a comparable situation would require 3-4 mill rocks and a self-aware opponent.
Thank you. I didn't think I was crazy feeling that way 0_o.
Most decks you bring in Tez vs you still want to develop the bridge lock. It's just Tez is another way to get around stony silence or provide card advantage to deal with discard effects.
Against grixis, yes tezzeret is used to find artifacts and end because his next turn ultimate actually ends the game against them with their life total being self-drained so quickly. You are still relying on a bridge, but you are not locking them out. In this matchup, if you don't have a bridge, you've 90% lost. But with a bridge in play, you are NOT going to seal them out of the game. Way too many fetches and cycles and cantrips and flashback. You haven't tested this match enough if you think you can reliably get the lock in games 2 and 3. Normal games go (1)get info through discard or early lantern and rock, (2) get bridge, (3) seal the lock. In the grixis match, you actually side out lanterns because you are not going to do that. It becomes (1) get bridge, (2) get tezz and kill. Obviously with back and forth discard and such. But that is your goal. Tezz ends the game the very next turn. Jace does not. Trying to interact with them and bounce and card advantage is a losing battle.
Against tron, tezz absolutely will make a 5/5 and try to start swinging. It is another match where it is incredibly hard to establish a true lock, and it gets even harder postboard.
I could see at least testing Jace, for sure. It's not just the abilities that matter here, but that he soaks up damage. Even if we get stuck with an extra card in hand, that means they can attack him for a small amount of damage. That's a small amount of damage that isn't coming at us, in addition to whatever ability we use.
I could see at least testing Jace, for sure. It's not just the abilities that matter here, but that he soaks up damage. Even if we get stuck with an extra card in hand, that means they can attack him for a small amount of damage. That's a small amount of damage that isn't coming at us, in addition to whatever ability we use.
Thinking of testing something like this on MTGO when changes go live...
Jace is inferior to Tezz. Jace lets you draw a card or so, but you dont want card advantage in this deck. Jace is a 4-mana sorcery speed Shredder (how awful). Tezz on the other hand digs 5 cards deep and offers a stupid fast clock.
Jace is definately not good here. He belongs in U/Wx control almost exclusively. Also I might be the wierd one here, but I've been testing the whir version since it won the PT. I can honestly say I prefer the G/B build. Ive been using Salvatto's exact list though, I'm gonna switch up a few cards for my flavor before I call it quits on whir. Also in a side board game against U/B control at fnm I had an opener of spire, RoT, 2 opal, tezz, bauble, and cage. Played river, bauble, opal, and cage, drew a glimmervoid. Turn 2 tapped opal for black, river for blue, dropped spire and the other opal and slammed tezz down making the bauble a 5/5 and swung. Next turn cage became a 5/5 too. Opponent scooped before attacks lmao! He was livid! Whole night he was complaining about how lantern shouldn't win by lethal on turn 4! I'm honestly thinking about moving tezz to main now.
EDIT: This is my G/B version
Lantern Control
Maindeck (60)
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
1 Welding Jar
4 Codex Shredder
3 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Lantern of Insight
3 Pithing Needle
1 Pyxis of Pandemonium
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Academy Ruins
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Glimmervoid
2 Inventors' Fair
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Spire of Industry
Sideboard (15)
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Welding Jar
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Seal of Primordium
3 Leyline of Sanctity
Also I just wanna give a big thanks to all the people who slaved over making this deck awesome. Ive only been playing latern for a couple of months and it's been a blast the whole time, for me anyways.
Jace is inferior to Tezz. Jace lets you draw a card or so, but you dont want card advantage in this deck. Jace is a 4-mana sorcery speed Shredder (how awful). Tezz on the other hand digs 5 cards deep and offers a stupid fast clock.
I think a point, that definitely speaks against jace is the fact, that in matchups where our opponent plays jace we have to needle it for sure, which turns off our own jace. Since I expect a lot of people playing jace, this actually makes jace in the mb real bad and for sideboard considerations, we would mostly bring him in against slower matchups, of which several decks will play him themself. Tezz dodges this.
This... is the best argument against Jace.
I would agree with that. It depends on how the meta shapes up.
I disagree with the pros saying the Tezz is better than Jace; however, if the meta is full of jace decks... then I could def. see it.
Tezz is better than Jace...in Lantern Control. In every other context imaginable (except other weird artifact control decks) Jace is much better.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: -UBG Lantern Control-GW or RG or R Tron - G Stompy - C KCI Combo-
EDH: -UG Ezuri-UGZegana-BRMogis-WUBRGRamos-WBREdgar-URLocust God-WUBRBreya-BMacar-WUBrago-WEvra-
This is the deck I plan on testing when JTMS goes live on MTGO tomorrow.
Going to play a higher concentrated number of TS in order to get around the above mentioned problem of playing Jace against Jace decks.
I'm not so sure. JTMS is a very powerful fate-steal effect. Plus it's an insanely effective way to win the game with it's ultimate.
I might just really like that card <3
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I honestly comes down to whether or not Jace is good as a general-purpose mainboard planeswalker. As he isn't good enough for a sideboard sot (which feels weird to say honestly).
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Worse then Tez? I'm not sure I agree.
1) the +2 is another fate seal effect. In someways it's actually better (allows us to target ourself without milling silver bullets we may need to fetch later). The +2 effect is actually what fits into lantern control.
2) The brainstorm effect is arguably it's less powerful feature; however, it would allow us to stack the top of the deck with usless cards we can then self-mill away. Not the most effective use... but its not completely dead.
3) bounce a creature: this is actually more relevant than you would think. It gives us game against trouble creatures like tireless tracker if you draw a discard spell late.
4) It's ultimate might as well be "you win the game". Especially when you are playing mill-rocks.
I do think this could be far more powerful than Tez... but time will tell.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
2) Your hand is empty by this point. You don't want to leave ANY cards in hand once you have bridge out. Lantern is on such a tight race to close the window for the opponent, that every turn has to get you significantly closer. A 4 drop brainstorm is not where we want to be.
3) If you have lantern and mill rocks, what are you doing drawing discard late instead of milling it? If you don't have lantern and mill rocks by the time you play jace, you probably already lost.
You are misunderstanding the role of Tezzeret. He is played almost always when you have given up being able to lantern lock an opponent. Tron and Grixis shadow being the 2 most important examples. He creates a 5/5 that attacks that very turn, and presents a new angle in the match. Jace does not provide any new angles in those matches.
In matchups where you bring in Tez, you also leave in bridge. In fact I don't think there is any deck you bring out bridges against entirely. You may cut some... but you still leave it in.
Unless I am missing something tez is often used for its search capabilities and ultimate to quickly close the game. Especially against decks where lock is less effective or when they play stony silence (non-artifact way to close the game).
Tez - ability, for example, won't help vs Grixis Shadow when they have DS.... unless I am completely missing something.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
And JTMS is testable. You either filter away excess stuff to mill away via Pyxis or Bell or you Fateseal down their stuff you might not want in the graveyard, and so on. If JTMS stays alive for 5 turns you've won (not impossible with Bridge out) and a comparable situation would require 3-4 mill rocks and a self-aware opponent.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
Thank you. I didn't think I was crazy feeling that way 0_o.
Most decks you bring in Tez vs you still want to develop the bridge lock. It's just Tez is another way to get around stony silence or provide card advantage to deal with discard effects.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Against tron, tezz absolutely will make a 5/5 and try to start swinging. It is another match where it is incredibly hard to establish a true lock, and it gets even harder postboard.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
Thinking of testing something like this on MTGO when changes go live...
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Darkslick Shores
4 Glimmervoid
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 River of Tears
4 Spire of Industry
3 Botanical Sanctum
Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells
2 Collective Brutality
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Whir of Invention
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Codex Shredder
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Mox Opal
2 Pyxis of Pandemonium
2 Welding Jar
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Pyroclasm
1 Nature's Claim
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
EDIT: I'd like to see an argument for the 1st maindeck jace before the 4th bridge.
https://twitter.com/utdzac/status/963086442548355072
https://twitter.com/SamuelHBlack/status/963094653775032320
EDIT: This is my G/B version
Lantern Control
Maindeck (60)
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
1 Welding Jar
4 Codex Shredder
3 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Lantern of Insight
3 Pithing Needle
1 Pyxis of Pandemonium
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Academy Ruins
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Glimmervoid
2 Inventors' Fair
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Spire of Industry
Sideboard (15)
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Welding Jar
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Seal of Primordium
3 Leyline of Sanctity
Shared via TopDecked MTG https://www.topdecked.me/decks/14ab1d39-71c6-40b1-be36-1dfd7a9c84f1
I'm not so sure. I think people are undervaluing Jace.
Jace is actually an absurdly fast clock as well. Albit in a different manner.
I think it deserves testing.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
This... is the best argument against Jace.
I would agree with that. It depends on how the meta shapes up.
I disagree with the pros saying the Tezz is better than Jace; however, if the meta is full of jace decks... then I could def. see it.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
EDH: -UG Ezuri-UGZegana-BRMogis-WUBRGRamos-WBREdgar-URLocust God-WUBRBreya-BMacar-WUBrago-WEvra-
I am not sure I 100% agree with that.
PS: There was a VS series where it was Death's Shadow (with jace) vs lantern (with jace)
Very interesting.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Going to play a higher concentrated number of TS in order to get around the above mentioned problem of playing Jace against Jace decks.
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells (16)
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Collective Brutality
4 Thoughtseize
4 Whir of Invention
Artifacts (24)
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Codex Shredder
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Mox Opal
1 Pyxis of Pandemonium
1 Witchbane Orb
3 Botanical Sanctum
3 Darkslick Shores
4 Glimmervoid
1 Inventors' Fair
1 island
1 Academy Ruins
1 River of Tears
4 Spire of Industry
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nature's Claim
2 Welding Jar
1 Collective Brutality
1 Pyxis of Pandemonium
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Pyroclasm
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA