Should we create a new topic specifically for Lantern Foundry? So we can let everyone who doesn't want to add the combo keep the original Lantern Prison thread here?
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I'm playtesting a 3-2 split of TF/SotM, keeping red for Grid main and Spellbomb sideboard. I don't own Darkslick Shores so I'm running 2 Watery Grave, 2 Shivan Reef and 3 Llanowar Wastes. Even with 2 ThoughtSeize I haven't had troubles with mana or life in playtesting. I've also only got 3 Glimmervoid but with the 4 Mox Opal my mana base seems fine.
Ghirapur Aether Grid is the card in the deck that already does what you want. By the time you find it, it's not uncommon for you to be able to win the game in the next 4 or 5 turns, which is also probably about the same amount of turns you would spend charging the Grindclock before it would become useful. Grid also allows us to have some control elements as we can hit creatures with it.
This absolutely is not a mill deck, milling just happens to be one of the ways you can win.
Hence the reason why I call it a mill deck. It has that option to win aside from Grid damage and making your opponent quit. It's not a dedicated mill deck but still a mill deck and would probably the second win con followed by Grid damage. I'm not advocating to use Grindclock except to test if for myself. I'd like to know if I can win faster. I'd probably only need 2-3 charges for it to speed things up. I know Grid's advantage because it's in my deck but Grindclock can be "tutored" via AS.
Should we create a new topic specifically for Lantern Foundry? So we can let everyone who doesn't want to add the combo keep the original Lantern Prison thread here?
This is good news. Too bad I don't have the pieces. RG Tron is one of bad match ups this deck has and having creature threats/defense is for the better. How's your Grixis match up if you've played them?
I would think Doom Blade might be a bit better, due to the fact that it's an Instant (can also hit Inkmoth, if need be) and it's more of a kill spell, rather than just 2 damage to all.
The only way Infect could save their targeted creature if you Doom Blade it, is if they Vines, or Apostle's Blessing ..but if you Pyro it, they could also pump it up (via Groundswell, Krosa, etc).
Should we create a new topic specifically for Lantern Foundry? So we can let everyone who doesn't want to add the combo keep the original Lantern Prison thread here?
This is good news. Too bad I don't have the pieces. RG Tron is one of bad match ups this deck has and having creature threats/defense is for the better. How's your Grixis match up if you've played them?
Grixis is manageable. It's difficult in its own right, but i've found that the Foundry combo gives us enough life to where they have a hard time bolt-snap-bolting us, which is how i lost most of my games before.
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Ghirapur Aether Grid is the card in the deck that already does what you want. By the time you find it, it's not uncommon for you to be able to win the game in the next 4 or 5 turns, which is also probably about the same amount of turns you would spend charging the Grindclock before it would become useful. Grid also allows us to have some control elements as we can hit creatures with it.
This absolutely is not a mill deck, milling just happens to be one of the ways you can win.
Hence the reason why I call it a mill deck. It has that option to win aside from Grid damage and making your opponent quit. It's not a dedicated mill deck but still a mill deck and would probably the second win con followed by Grid damage. I'm not advocating to use Grindclock except to test if for myself. I'd like to know if I can win faster. I'd probably only need 2-3 charges for it to speed things up. I know Grid's advantage because it's in my deck but Grindclock can be "tutored" via AS.
Its not a mill-, its a prison-deck.
You dont want to play Grindclock, because you want and need control about the top card of the decks to get the cards you need and dont let your oppenent draw what he needs. Thats why you dont want to mill more then one card a time, to keep control, about whats going on.
Anyway, there is no need to speed things up if you play the deck correctly.
Grindclock is a slow win-con in itself. It's a mill rock that not only costs extra, but needs "charging up" before use. That is also a good point, that you need to keep control, not plow through cards. What happens if your Grindclock is at two and you activate it, only to hit Emrakul, the Aeons Torn as the second card? It'd be far better to just let the opponent draw it (if you have Bridge out).
In my experience, it's quite rare to win games by milling, especially with the new Foundry combo out. A lot of the time, either Ghirapur AEther Grid or the Foundry combo are more than enough to win games; the Lantern lock is there just to seal the deal by keeping them off their cards and finding you your own cards.
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Ghirapur Aether Grid is the card in the deck that already does what you want. By the time you find it, it's not uncommon for you to be able to win the game in the next 4 or 5 turns, which is also probably about the same amount of turns you would spend charging the Grindclock before it would become useful. Grid also allows us to have some control elements as we can hit creatures with it.
This absolutely is not a mill deck, milling just happens to be one of the ways you can win.
Hence the reason why I call it a mill deck. It has that option to win aside from Grid damage and making your opponent quit. It's not a dedicated mill deck but still a mill deck and would probably the second win con followed by Grid damage. I'm not advocating to use Grindclock except to test if for myself. I'd like to know if I can win faster. I'd probably only need 2-3 charges for it to speed things up. I know Grid's advantage because it's in my deck but Grindclock can be "tutored" via AS.
Its not a mill-, its a prison-deck.
You dont want to play Grindclock, because you want and need control about the top card of the decks to get the cards you need and dont let your oppenent draw what he needs. Thats why you dont want to mill more then one card a time, to keep control, about whats going on.
Anyway, there is no need to speed things up if you play the deck correctly.
Grindclock is a slow win-con in itself. It's a mill rock that not only costs extra, but needs "charging up" before use. That is also a good point, that you need to keep control, not plow through cards. What happens if your Grindclock is at two and you activate it, only to hit Emrakul, the Aeons Torn as the second card? It'd be far better to just let the opponent draw it (if you have Bridge out).
In my experience, it's quite rare to win games by milling, especially with the new Foundry combo out. A lot of the time, either Ghirapur AEther Grid or the Foundry combo are more than enough to win games; the Lantern lock is there just to seal the deal by keeping them off their cards and finding you your own cards.
I'm well aware of blind milling and Tron is probably(?) the only deck that uses Emrakul so I'd know when to fire it. I'll have Grid in my deck most likely but I'd still try if Grindclock can speed things up.
Having played 100's of games with Grindclock I can safely say I like it as the 9th or 10th mill rock after you have maxed out Bell and Codex. It wins games faster that you have already won. It is not completely a win more card because it can act as a regular mill rock by coming into play tapped, but even still it does have a tendency to slow the deck down. I ultimately cut it as I didn't have enough room. If you search the thread you can see one of my decklists that did praise the card, though you can also look at that decklist and see some pitfalls that the deck was still running into (namely efficiency). It's on my list of maybe cards that I keep around, but I doubt it will be coming off anytime soon.
Having played 100's of games with Grindclock I can safely say I like it as the 9th or 10th mill rock after you have maxed out Bell and Codex. It wins games faster that you have already won. It is not completely a win more card because it can act as a regular mill rock by coming into play tapped, but even still it does have a tendency to slow the deck down. I ultimately cut it as I didn't have enough room. If you search the thread you can see one of my decklists that did praise the card, though you can also look at that decklist and see some pitfalls that the deck was still running into (namely efficiency). It's on my list of maybe cards that I keep around, but I doubt it will be coming off anytime soon.
Knowing pros and cons from a long time Lantern pilot is much appreciated. And knowing it's on your maybe list sounds better. If I do use it, it will be in the SB probably.
Having played 100's of games with Grindclock I can safely say I like it as the 9th or 10th mill rock after you have maxed out Bell and Codex. It wins games faster that you have already won. It is not completely a win more card because it can act as a regular mill rock by coming into play tapped, but even still it does have a tendency to slow the deck down. I ultimately cut it as I didn't have enough room. If you search the thread you can see one of my decklists that did praise the card, though you can also look at that decklist and see some pitfalls that the deck was still running into (namely efficiency). It's on my list of maybe cards that I keep around, but I doubt it will be coming off anytime soon.
You forget Duskmantle, House of Shadow which should be #3 or #4. It's built into the land base and immune to Stony Silence.
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This is good news. Too bad I don't have the pieces. RG Tron is one of bad match ups this deck has and having creature threats/defense is for the better. How's your Grixis match up if you've played them?
Lantern control is likely not unfavored against current iterations of RG Tron. In absence of Eye of Ugin, most Tron brew's are relying on Conduit of Ruin as a tutor, which happens to be pretty terrible against a deck that plays 8-9 Mill Rocks.
This is good news. Too bad I don't have the pieces. RG Tron is one of bad match ups this deck has and having creature threats/defense is for the better. How's your Grixis match up if you've played them?
Lantern control is likely not unfavored against current iterations of RG Tron. In absence of Eye of Ugin, most Tron brew's are relying on Conduit of Ruin as a tutor, which happens to be pretty terrible against a deck that plays 8-9 Mill Rocks.
I'm talking about pre Eye of Ugin banning. With the traditional build against Tron right now I'm still not sure but I'm still leaning towards the unfavorable side, having the Thopter/Sword combo gives us creatures with evasion and bonus gain life to end the game quickly which makes the match up better.
Should we create a new topic specifically for Lantern Foundry? So we can let everyone who doesn't want to add the combo keep the original Lantern Prison thread here?
This is good news. Too bad I don't have the pieces. RG Tron is one of bad match ups this deck has and having creature threats/defense is for the better. How's your Grixis match up if you've played them?
Grixis is manageable. It's difficult in its own right, but i've found that the Foundry combo gives us enough life to where they have a hard time bolt-snap-bolting us, which is how i lost most of my games before.
I lost a lot to burn I am dying to try the thopter sword combo! I just got all of the cards I need so im going to test in cockatrice tonight
@buriedevil I'm 12-4 in play testing against current Tron, so in my experience, it certainly doesn't feel unfavored for us. Cards that threaten Lantern have been reduced making the match-up feel favorable, or at the least, as even as the Tron matchup was pre ulmaolog. I think you might be pleasantly surprised at how that matchup typically plays out now that eye of ugin is banned. In regards to thopter further improving the Tron match-up, I'm not entirely sure as I have yet to really test out the thopter combo. I'll probably proxy a list sometime this week. Cheers to that aha
So I have been testing a partially budget lantern foundry for the last few days. The mainboard can be made cheaper by going down to 1 bridge and 1 of each thopter foundry and sotm. I plan on going to a full build once one is settled but I have found that this is working fairly well for the time being.
Dimir Machinations - Tutors bridge and Aether Grid. When it's not it is helping the game plan. Prefer this over reshape as I run less artifacts and it does something on it's own.
Bolt - Creature Removal and easy to get out of hand.
Tiagam's Scheming - More expensive ancient stirrings but allows ditching of unnecessary cards and SotM. Leaving cards in to fetch away is also useful sometimes.
Fathless Looting - Fast library searching, ditches for bridge and SotM.
*I want to slot an noxious revival or two in because this deck has a lot of ways to fill the yard.
Sideboard;
Muddle the Mixture - Tutors most sideboard cards, foundry combo pieces, and a solid counterspell in general. Note - You can transmute and fail to find if you need to empty your hand for bridge. I found it was really helpful in rushing out the thopter combo against burn.
Set Adrift - Blue Abrupt decay for U more often than not.
Manabase needs quite a bit of work but this has held up so far.
If Set Adrift get's stuck in hand there is faithless looting and duress if worst case as a way to fix that.
Taigam's scheming is fine for a deck trying to activate ensnaring bridge as soon a possible. It's not uncommon to need to wait a turn to cast Ancient Stirrings because you can't cast the bridge you might grab from it straight away making it vulnerable to discard/counters (as they know it's coming). Taigam's both hides the information and turns on the SotM combo quite often. Also allows you to sure up a draw or two where Stirrings does not.
Etherium Sculptor could have it's uses but it seems like at every point I might want to cast it, I would rather do something else (like just playing two mill rocks). If I ran more artifacts maybe but I'm not sold.
Muddle is primarily a tutor and with my manabase currently it is rarely an issue. It will search for nearly everything in my sideboard (including wear//tear for stony silence and the like) and the foundry combo pieces. The fact it does something on it's own is nice to have. My comment about AV was as you mentioned it was a concern and I stated the benefit of Muddle in that particular situation. If you can't cast UU on turn 5 then something has gone wrong.
As for Sculptor, I stated that it could be useful but in my deck, which runs very few artifacts that benefit from the discount, it would do nothing. Not only is your example of a best case scenario hand but it does a comparison of two cards I don't have which defeats the purpose of the response...
If you want to nit pick, sculptor turns on all of their removal game 1 putting you back a turn which is a worse outcome than doing something else. You also are in a position where you have no answers to a stony silence that has hit the board other than hoping to draw dusk mantle. Opal gives more flexibility with cards played, gets out of the hand quicker for bridge, and reduces the chance of getting lands stuck in hand.
Overall, I like it, but I definitely feel for the Pithing, the Leyline, and the fact that I only have one copy of Bauble, as I jettisoned the 2 Pyrites in favor of this one. I might try to go with 1 Welding Jar there, just so I can jam in a third Leyline in the board, but what do you think of this build? It's so easy to get one of the two combos going: either Lantern + Mill Rock, or Sword + Foundry. Bridge is also pretty academic.
My main concern is the manabase. I'm thinking maybe one of the Llanowar Wastes needs to be the UG painland instead. And no, I don't particularly miss the Ghost Quarters at the moment, but if I had to, I can put at least one back in.
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Vintage: Blue Belcher, Mentor Remora, Burning Long
Legacy: ANT, Sneak and Show, Omnitell, Oops All Spells
Modern: Grishoalbrand, Infect, UR Storm, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control
Can you sense the pattern here?
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3 Welding Jar
2 Spellskite
2 Quiet Disrepair
1 Hide // Seek
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Utter End
1 Pyroclasm
1 Time Sieve
I already have two Pyroclasm and two Surgical Extraction in my main board.
I just played a match against RG Tron, 2-0. Thopter Foundry was the MVP on game 2 after opponent used Surgical Extraction on my Ensnaring Bridges! I kept blocking his Oblivion Sower with my Spellskite, then would sac it to the Foundry and recur it with Academy Ruins. Utter End was extremely nice against Wurmcoil Engine, and could have hit other things like Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger or Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. I am loving the new angle that the Foundry combo gives the deck, and i am completely sold on keeping it in. I currently have a 2-2 split of Foundry and Sword.
Should we create a new topic specifically for Lantern Foundry? So we can let everyone who doesn't want to add the combo keep the original Lantern Prison thread here?
MODERN – LANTERN (aka Fateseal or Barbershop)
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I'm playtesting a 3-2 split of TF/SotM, keeping red for Grid main and Spellbomb sideboard. I don't own Darkslick Shores so I'm running 2 Watery Grave, 2 Shivan Reef and 3 Llanowar Wastes. Even with 2 ThoughtSeize I haven't had troubles with mana or life in playtesting. I've also only got 3 Glimmervoid but with the 4 Mox Opal my mana base seems fine.
EDIT:
4 mox opal
4 ancient stirrings
4 codex shredder
4 ghoulcaller's bell
1 inquisition of kozilek
4 lantern of insight
2 pithing needle
2 surgical extraction
2 thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 abrupt decay
1 infernal tutor
2 sword of the meek
3 thopter foundry
4 ensnaring bridge
1 kozilek's return
1 ghirapur aether grid
2 watery grave
1 forest
2 ghost quarter
3 glimmervoid
3 llanowar wastes
1 sea gate wreckage
1 tendo ice bridge
2 shivan reef
2 spellskite
2 welding jar
2 grafdigger's cage
1 nature's claim
1 pithing needle
1 surgical extraction
1 ancient grudge
2 pyrite spellbomb
3 leyline of sanctity
Hence the reason why I call it a mill deck. It has that option to win aside from Grid damage and making your opponent quit. It's not a dedicated mill deck but still a mill deck and would probably the second win con followed by Grid damage. I'm not advocating to use Grindclock except to test if for myself. I'd like to know if I can win faster. I'd probably only need 2-3 charges for it to speed things up. I know Grid's advantage because it's in my deck but Grindclock can be "tutored" via AS.
This is good news. Too bad I don't have the pieces. RG Tron is one of bad match ups this deck has and having creature threats/defense is for the better. How's your Grixis match up if you've played them?
What would your reasoning be behind that though?
I would think Doom Blade might be a bit better, due to the fact that it's an Instant (can also hit Inkmoth, if need be) and it's more of a kill spell, rather than just 2 damage to all.
The only way Infect could save their targeted creature if you Doom Blade it, is if they Vines, or Apostle's Blessing ..but if you Pyro it, they could also pump it up (via Groundswell, Krosa, etc).
That's just my opinion.
Grixis is manageable. It's difficult in its own right, but i've found that the Foundry combo gives us enough life to where they have a hard time bolt-snap-bolting us, which is how i lost most of my games before.
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Grindclock is a slow win-con in itself. It's a mill rock that not only costs extra, but needs "charging up" before use. That is also a good point, that you need to keep control, not plow through cards. What happens if your Grindclock is at two and you activate it, only to hit Emrakul, the Aeons Torn as the second card? It'd be far better to just let the opponent draw it (if you have Bridge out).
In my experience, it's quite rare to win games by milling, especially with the new Foundry combo out. A lot of the time, either Ghirapur AEther Grid or the Foundry combo are more than enough to win games; the Lantern lock is there just to seal the deal by keeping them off their cards and finding you your own cards.
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I'm well aware of blind milling and Tron is probably(?) the only deck that uses Emrakul so I'd know when to fire it. I'll have Grid in my deck most likely but I'd still try if Grindclock can speed things up.
Overall, I'm thinking of doing this.
In:
+3 Thopter Foundry
+2 Sword of the Meek
+2 Sea Gate Wreckage
+2 Darkslick Shores
+1 Underground River
+1 Tezzeret, Agent
+1 Yavimaya Coast
+1 Infernal Tutor
+1 Swamp
Out:
-1 Pyxis
-2 Pyrite Spellbomb
-1 Nature's Claim
-3 Spellskite
-1 Tendo
-1 Forest
-2 Ghost Q
-1 Copperline Gorge
-2 Blackleave Cliffs
My Ranking of Millrocks
u/Anon_Amarth - Fun as a zero sum game: If my opponent is having none of it, then by extension I must be having all of it.
Current Top Control Decklist
Cockatrice: Spage
Knowing pros and cons from a long time Lantern pilot is much appreciated. And knowing it's on your maybe list sounds better. If I do use it, it will be in the SB probably.
You forget Duskmantle, House of Shadow which should be #3 or #4. It's built into the land base and immune to Stony Silence.
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Lantern control is likely not unfavored against current iterations of RG Tron. In absence of Eye of Ugin, most Tron brew's are relying on Conduit of Ruin as a tutor, which happens to be pretty terrible against a deck that plays 8-9 Mill Rocks.
I'm talking about pre Eye of Ugin banning. With the traditional build against Tron right now I'm still not sure but I'm still leaning towards the unfavorable side, having the Thopter/Sword combo gives us creatures with evasion and bonus gain life to end the game quickly which makes the match up better.
I lost a lot to burn I am dying to try the thopter sword combo! I just got all of the cards I need so im going to test in cockatrice tonight
4 Lantern of Insight
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcallers Bell
2 Ensnaring Bridge
Spells
4 Taigam's Scheming
4 Dimir Machinations
4 Duress
4 Bolt
3 Faithless Looting
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Acadamy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Steam Vents
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Muddle the Mixture
1 Godless Shrine
2 Wear // Tear
1 Aether Grid
2 Pyroclasm
2 Darkblast
1 Terminate
1 Dreadbore
2 Set Adrift
I'll explain some of the odd choices.
Dimir Machinations - Tutors bridge and Aether Grid. When it's not it is helping the game plan. Prefer this over reshape as I run less artifacts and it does something on it's own.
Bolt - Creature Removal and easy to get out of hand.
Tiagam's Scheming - More expensive ancient stirrings but allows ditching of unnecessary cards and SotM. Leaving cards in to fetch away is also useful sometimes.
Fathless Looting - Fast library searching, ditches for bridge and SotM.
*I want to slot an noxious revival or two in because this deck has a lot of ways to fill the yard.
Sideboard;
Muddle the Mixture - Tutors most sideboard cards, foundry combo pieces, and a solid counterspell in general. Note - You can transmute and fail to find if you need to empty your hand for bridge. I found it was really helpful in rushing out the thopter combo against burn.
Set Adrift - Blue Abrupt decay for U more often than not.
Manabase needs quite a bit of work but this has held up so far.
If Set Adrift get's stuck in hand there is faithless looting and duress if worst case as a way to fix that.
Taigam's scheming is fine for a deck trying to activate ensnaring bridge as soon a possible. It's not uncommon to need to wait a turn to cast Ancient Stirrings because you can't cast the bridge you might grab from it straight away making it vulnerable to discard/counters (as they know it's coming). Taigam's both hides the information and turns on the SotM combo quite often. Also allows you to sure up a draw or two where Stirrings does not.
Etherium Sculptor could have it's uses but it seems like at every point I might want to cast it, I would rather do something else (like just playing two mill rocks). If I ran more artifacts maybe but I'm not sold.
Finally, Muddle the Mixture serves as a way to hit Ancestral Visions.
As for Sculptor, I stated that it could be useful but in my deck, which runs very few artifacts that benefit from the discount, it would do nothing. Not only is your example of a best case scenario hand but it does a comparison of two cards I don't have which defeats the purpose of the response...
If you want to nit pick, sculptor turns on all of their removal game 1 putting you back a turn which is a worse outcome than doing something else. You also are in a position where you have no answers to a stony silence that has hit the board other than hoping to draw dusk mantle. Opal gives more flexibility with cards played, gets out of the hand quicker for bridge, and reduces the chance of getting lands stuck in hand.
4 Mox Opal
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Glimmervoid
2 Academy Ruins
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Blackleave Cliffs
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Seagate Wreckage
1 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Forest
SORCERIES
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
LOCK PIECES
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Pithing Needle
OTHERS
1 Mishra's Bauble
3 Pyroclasm
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Spellskite
2 Welding Jar
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Hide/Seek
1 Nature's Claim
Overall, I like it, but I definitely feel for the Pithing, the Leyline, and the fact that I only have one copy of Bauble, as I jettisoned the 2 Pyrites in favor of this one. I might try to go with 1 Welding Jar there, just so I can jam in a third Leyline in the board, but what do you think of this build? It's so easy to get one of the two combos going: either Lantern + Mill Rock, or Sword + Foundry. Bridge is also pretty academic.
My main concern is the manabase. I'm thinking maybe one of the Llanowar Wastes needs to be the UG painland instead. And no, I don't particularly miss the Ghost Quarters at the moment, but if I had to, I can put at least one back in.
Legacy: ANT, Sneak and Show, Omnitell, Oops All Spells
Modern: Grishoalbrand, Infect, UR Storm, Ad Nauseam, Lantern Control
Can you sense the pattern here?