Well, aside from the tutoring problem, take this as an example: I played vs UWR Control yesterday and, after winning g1 with Mindslaver, my opponent just brought all teh hatezzz against me. He drew 3 Tec Edges, Crucible, 2 Stony Silence, 2 Shadow of Doubt plus Wear//Tear + Snapcaster. So, obviously I never got to have full tron for more than a couple seconds. I won after casting 2 Wurmcoils and 1 Sundering Titan the old fashioned way.
So, to summarize, as much as I love to cast Eldrazi (check my UR Tron thread :P), this deck really doesn't need that. If we suffered from a lack of good finishers or a weak late game plan, I would try other stuff. But Wurmcoil, Sundering Titan, Platinum Angel and Mindslaver are all awesome bombs. This deck struggles sometimes because it lacks good on-color removal and can't handle hordes of creatures, the late game definitely isn't a problem in need of fixing. By adding Eldrazi you're actually making the bad matchups even worse (Infect, Merfolk, Burn and company).
Also, I always try to change the mindset regarding Tron decks from "OMG I have a bazillion mana! Let's add a bunch of 15cc cards and destroy people!" to "Well, in most of the sideboarded games I'll never actually have more than 10 mana, so let's plan accordingly". It's not as exciting, but it's the cold hard truth.
When playing this deck, forget about the brokenness of the Tron lands, focus on building a mana advantage with Talismans and Solemns, digging deep with Thirst, Remand, Repeal, Condescend and eventually just dropping something your opponent can't handle profitably. Otherwise I would play RG Tron.
...yeah, why don't we ever experiment with Eldrazi in this build? I understand why we don't run Emrakul, as 15 mana is a chore even for us, but there are various other Eldrazi power-houses that are both affordable and can unrecoverably swing a game in our direction. Is it because we can't tutor for them, and have no ETB effects?
I ran Emrakul for a while because I freaking love that card. The truth is it is just too slow for me. Mindslaver is quicker to get to and one Mindslaver activation can swing the game, especially in our bad matchups.
For example I played Affinity last week and I got a single Slaver activation. My draw (as him) was Arcbound Ravager. I sacced his entire freaking board to the Ravager and then the Ravager to itself. Then since he had no artifacts in play, sacced his Glimmervoid.
I obviously won that game, where if I ran an Eldrazi package instead I would have absolutely lost. I thought about running both, but those spots in my deck are better for a second Oblivion Stone and a Batterskull (as opposed to Emrakul and Eye).
I was losing (or drawing) some matches because of the clock, so I started to run a Emrakul on the sideboard and using him on matches that takes too long, and probably you'll have 15 or more mana.
I think only one on the sideboard is nice, and Emrakul is a great win condition. The problem here is that you can't tutor him, but he will often come "naturally".
Wouldn't Emrakul seem like an ideal sideboard option against something like UWR control? 15 mana is a lot, but UWR gives us more than enough time to get there and draw it, and it's GG upon resolution.
Well, aside from the tutoring problem, take this as an example: I played vs UWR Control yesterday and, after winning g1 with Mindslaver, my opponent just brought all teh hatezzz against me. He drew 3 Tec Edges, Crucible, 2 Stony Silence, 2 Shadow of Doubt plus Wear//Tear + Snapcaster. So, obviously I never got to have full tron for more than a couple seconds. I won after casting 2 Wurmcoils and 1 Sundering Titan the old fashioned way.
I agree that you often spend games 2 and 3 casting stuff the old fashioned way, but as you pointed it out, it's rarely that big of a deal considering the control game we play as we amass more mana. I played a RUG Twin match and a UWR Control match where they both sided in Sowing Salt against me, but among mana draws, Talismans, Solemns, and Expedition Maps, it was little more than an inconvenience.
I would just like to point out that there are merits to both builds.
1) There are better finishers than Emrakul... (true but...)
- Mindslaver lock costs 13 mana to pull off (including academy ruins), Emrakul with Eye of Ugin in play also costs 13 mana.
- Other threats/fatties are good but they don't end the game quickly and can be answered (although not most of the time), granted Emrakul could be answered as well, but you at least would have annihilated for 6.
- But to be fair, these threats come down earlier and are more impactful (i.e. Sundering Titan, Platinum Angel)
2) Not that tutorable
- Emrakul fits well with the trinket mage package, as it can search for Expedition Map, which searches for Eye of Ugin or you could search for the Eye with Tolaria West.
3) You are making aggro matchups horrible
- Granted it would suck to draw him early against aggro and that would be its main drawback, you could pitch it to thirst for knowledge. But by having this one card that you know would be enough later, you could probably trim down on other fatties/threats and play more early game interactions (counterspells/targetted removals).
So in summary,
- Both builds are good.
- Treasure Mages go with Slaver Lock and 6 mana or above artifact threats.
- Trinket Mages go with toolbox builds (chalice, pithing, relic) for early game interactions and would be better with the Emrakul finish.
I would just like to point out that there are merits to both builds.
1) There are better finishers than Emrakul... (true but...)
- Mindslaver lock costs 13 mana to pull off (including academy ruins), Emrakul with Eye of Ugin in play also costs 13 mana.
Mindslaver can win the game with just one activation
The biggest advantage to Emrakul, from my perspective is to be able to win from one tutor. There are games where I have a lot of early interaction, stabilize, and then wait to draw a finisher. With Emrakul, every Expedition Map or Trinket Mage leads to a win.
I think the Mindslaver + Academy Ruins plan is better for a couple reasons. First, and most important to me, Ruins taps for mana, and so uses a land spot. Eye of Ugin only makes Eldrazi mana, and so I would have it take a spell slot. This means that not only is Eye worse early in the game, but the Emrakul + Eye package takes up 1 more spell slot than Slaver + Ruins (which takes 1 spell and 1 land spot). I want to devote the fewest spots to finishers to maximize early game interaction, and thus get to a point to cast the finishers. Second, Ruins can recur more than just slaver. This has mattered in a few games, mainly late game against UWR, just recurring and casting a finisher every turn can eventually get through a wall of counters. Recurring Wurmcoil against Jund or Pod is good, but often it's just win-more in my experience.
I would not cut Snapcaster either, but a second AEtherize would probably be better than Hibernation, though you're playing Gifts so 1-ofs make somewhat more sense
I would not cut Snapcaster either, but a second AEtherize would probably be better than Hibernation, though you're playing Gifts so 1-ofs make somewhat more sense
That's what I run, there are a number of matchups where we need to caste hate cards multiple times like Affinity and aggro matchups where having a blocker or second aetherize is very relevant.
I'm so glad Sadistic Sacrament isn't seeing play in Modern. I was playing against Death Cloud with a friend of mine today just for fun, and when any one of his four copies hit, it was 90% over for me.
I'm havin a lot of difficulty against Jund and Affinity principally, so I'll try 3 copies of Steel Sabotage on the SB, to get a more control of the match. Am I being too extreme, or this isn't necessary? How to play against those matches?
I had a Tezzerator opponent board in Sadistic Sacrament against me in a side event to GP Chicago, but it never resolved. It seems way better against decks like Scapeshift.
Does anyone else almost never side in Dismember? Dismember naturally comes in against creature heavy match-ups, but creature heavy decks- even those not necessarily classified as aggro (like Jund)- make the the 4 life casting cost a tremendous liability, especially in multiples. I also almost never board it in against Twin, as I find that I'm able to control the match just fine with my existing compliment of counter/control Magic. The only time I'm ever inclined to side it in is against RWU control, but Bolt, Electrolyze, and Snapcaster also puts Dismember at a steep cost, and much like Twin, I find that 90% of the mainboard is ideally suited to properly controlling that matchup anyway.
After several months of playing this deck, I've realized how much I love the mainboard, but really dislike the sideboard, as it just feels to me that most of our options aren't necessarily 'good' ones inasmuch as there are simply 'no better ones.' Really looking forward to experimenting with Aether Spouts, though.
So, to summarize, as much as I love to cast Eldrazi (check my UR Tron thread :P), this deck really doesn't need that. If we suffered from a lack of good finishers or a weak late game plan, I would try other stuff. But Wurmcoil, Sundering Titan, Platinum Angel and Mindslaver are all awesome bombs. This deck struggles sometimes because it lacks good on-color removal and can't handle hordes of creatures, the late game definitely isn't a problem in need of fixing. By adding Eldrazi you're actually making the bad matchups even worse (Infect, Merfolk, Burn and company).
Also, I always try to change the mindset regarding Tron decks from "OMG I have a bazillion mana! Let's add a bunch of 15cc cards and destroy people!" to "Well, in most of the sideboarded games I'll never actually have more than 10 mana, so let's plan accordingly". It's not as exciting, but it's the cold hard truth.
When playing this deck, forget about the brokenness of the Tron lands, focus on building a mana advantage with Talismans and Solemns, digging deep with Thirst, Remand, Repeal, Condescend and eventually just dropping something your opponent can't handle profitably. Otherwise I would play RG Tron.
I ran Emrakul for a while because I freaking love that card. The truth is it is just too slow for me. Mindslaver is quicker to get to and one Mindslaver activation can swing the game, especially in our bad matchups.
For example I played Affinity last week and I got a single Slaver activation. My draw (as him) was Arcbound Ravager. I sacced his entire freaking board to the Ravager and then the Ravager to itself. Then since he had no artifacts in play, sacced his Glimmervoid.
I obviously won that game, where if I ran an Eldrazi package instead I would have absolutely lost. I thought about running both, but those spots in my deck are better for a second Oblivion Stone and a Batterskull (as opposed to Emrakul and Eye).
I was losing (or drawing) some matches because of the clock, so I started to run a Emrakul on the sideboard and using him on matches that takes too long, and probably you'll have 15 or more mana.
I think only one on the sideboard is nice, and Emrakul is a great win condition. The problem here is that you can't tutor him, but he will often come "naturally".
I agree that you often spend games 2 and 3 casting stuff the old fashioned way, but as you pointed it out, it's rarely that big of a deal considering the control game we play as we amass more mana. I played a RUG Twin match and a UWR Control match where they both sided in Sowing Salt against me, but among mana draws, Talismans, Solemns, and Expedition Maps, it was little more than an inconvenience.
I would just like to point out that there are merits to both builds.
1) There are better finishers than Emrakul... (true but...)
- Mindslaver lock costs 13 mana to pull off (including academy ruins), Emrakul with Eye of Ugin in play also costs 13 mana.
- Other threats/fatties are good but they don't end the game quickly and can be answered (although not most of the time), granted Emrakul could be answered as well, but you at least would have annihilated for 6.
- But to be fair, these threats come down earlier and are more impactful (i.e. Sundering Titan, Platinum Angel)
2) Not that tutorable
- Emrakul fits well with the trinket mage package, as it can search for Expedition Map, which searches for Eye of Ugin or you could search for the Eye with Tolaria West.
3) You are making aggro matchups horrible
- Granted it would suck to draw him early against aggro and that would be its main drawback, you could pitch it to thirst for knowledge. But by having this one card that you know would be enough later, you could probably trim down on other fatties/threats and play more early game interactions (counterspells/targetted removals).
So in summary,
- Both builds are good.
- Treasure Mages go with Slaver Lock and 6 mana or above artifact threats.
- Trinket Mages go with toolbox builds (chalice, pithing, relic) for early game interactions and would be better with the Emrakul finish.
Sword of feast and famine FAIL responses
"How can we make a future if we don't try our hardest?"
-Monkey D. Luffy
Playing:
Modern:
BGR JUND RGB
Legacy:
URU/R Delver RU
Mindslaver can win the game with just one activation
I think the Mindslaver + Academy Ruins plan is better for a couple reasons. First, and most important to me, Ruins taps for mana, and so uses a land spot. Eye of Ugin only makes Eldrazi mana, and so I would have it take a spell slot. This means that not only is Eye worse early in the game, but the Emrakul + Eye package takes up 1 more spell slot than Slaver + Ruins (which takes 1 spell and 1 land spot). I want to devote the fewest spots to finishers to maximize early game interaction, and thus get to a point to cast the finishers. Second, Ruins can recur more than just slaver. This has mattered in a few games, mainly late game against UWR, just recurring and casting a finisher every turn can eventually get through a wall of counters. Recurring Wurmcoil against Jund or Pod is good, but often it's just win-more in my experience.
Played mostly silly jank decks. The finals was against the Event Deck (BW Tokens). Won 2-0.
Overall I went 8-0 for first place. Yay.
Also I am intrigued by Metamorph. Let me know how that works for you.
Snap in the main and the Sideboard though? Why?
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
Thanks.
Jund is a good matchup. You have a lot of good cards against them (Thirst, Solemn, Ruins, Wurmcoil etc).
Hmmm.
If Liliana plus 1's, and you Thirst for Knowledge in response, the card you discard for Thirst cannot 'count' as discarding a card to Lilly, correct?
Thirst is very good vs Jund because it's a way to find what you need against a deck that heavily attacks your hand.
Ok that's what I thought. Worth a shot.
Thanks.
After several months of playing this deck, I've realized how much I love the mainboard, but really dislike the sideboard, as it just feels to me that most of our options aren't necessarily 'good' ones inasmuch as there are simply 'no better ones.' Really looking forward to experimenting with Aether Spouts, though.