So according to your experience, which splash do you think is the best one? and how do you think the deck works better, just monoU or with one of these splashes? I agree with you with the Engineered Explosives and i think it would be interesting to play with them.
I think Mono-U is still the best in an unknown meta, but I think UR can have a good game vs. aggro, so if there's a lot of affinity, merfolk, and pod, I could see that splash. In general, our late game is strong, it's just a matter of getting there. I think UR did that the best.
I'm so curious about your decklist, could you post it or tell us with do you play MB and SB to look for with Trinket Mage?
I only play Pithing Needle and Relic, along with Maps, MB. My list is still close to the stock list, but no Signets/Talismans, no Solemn Simulacrum, only 1 Mindslaver, -1 Platinum Angel/Sundering Titan (meta call), and +3 Trinket Mage, +1 Relic, +1 Pithing Needle. Oh, and it has 4 Repeal MB and 3 Wurmcoils instead of 2 and a Platinum Angel.
SB, I switch it up, but I usually have another Relic. I have tried Engineered Explosives, Chalice of the Void (for RG Tron), or Elixir of Immortality.
I prefer the ramp and value on crum. With trinket mage, I pay 3 and get something I have to pay 1-3 mana to use. With crum, I pay 4, ramp a land then draw a card. He just seems to advance the gameplan better.
Solemn is a solid card, don't get me wrong.
I've posted about Trinket Mage in this thread before, but here's how I play it:
Trinket Mage into Pithing Needle shuts down Birthing Pod, combo pieces, Lilliana, DRS, Tectonic Edge and man lands.
Relic stops the pod combo, gets rid of persist creatures, and neuters goyfs.
If I'm not being threatened, Mage can always get Expedition Map to help me reach Tron or Mindslaver lock mana. Crucially, it can also be a way to get Academy Ruins. By turn 4, I usually want a Tron land or Ruins more than an Island, but I have definitely lost some games due to not enough blue mana.
75% of the time, Trinket Mage gets Pithing Needle and shuts something down. It gets less card advantage than Solemn, but you blank one of their cards. In other words, Solemn would net you 1 card, 1 island, and maybe some life. Trinket Mage gets you Needle, which usually blanks 1 of the opponents cards and gains some life. So you trade a random card and an island for one or more of their cards. Since I care more about disrupting the opponents early game, I like Trinket Mage more.
In the end, I think Solemn might be slightly better vs. Jund and Trinket Mage slightly better vs. Pod. The card advantage matters more in the Jund match-up, and getting to 6 for Wurmcoil is important.
Had another good 3-1 at a local tournament, hit two interesting rogue decks in the form of u/b mill and vial goblins, one thing that is nice about this deck is that it can pray on homebrews pretty well because nobody builds their decks with a mindslaver lock in mind.
The fact is that I do believe that if you do not make so different the MB (just changing 2 or 3 cards at the most 4), you shouldn't actually lose anything against combo or control. It is true that pre-board we wouldn't either gain so much against aggro (because we've just changed like 2 or 3 cards), but we will actually make a great improving post-board (it doesn't matter which splash, red, white or black, we would have better cards on the SB against aggro than in the monoU version). We could even improve against control and combo with some card from the SB.
EDIT: I've been testing the deck with the white splash and I've just realise how awesome is engineered explosives + academy ruins. You can win games only using it and start removing everything from battlefield in the third turn. Just awesome. I'm thinking on replacing the O. Stone from the MD with another EE.
Yeah, I wasn't too clear. What I meant was, red helped survive to the late game versus aggro better than mono-u because of Pyroclasm.
Something else I didn't mention was that white offers a lot in terms of Celestial Colonnade, Path, Timely Reinforcements, but a lot of that stuff just didn't really make a lot of different for me.
Ideally, with EE, you can get to X=2 reliably, and X=3 if needed. With 12 colorless lands, that's hard to do. One issue is that fetches and shocks mean life loss. Another, EE on 2 will blow up your own signets. Finally, more land types means Sundering Titan is worse. I never really figured this out. I don't run the signets and have ST in the side, but still, fetching shocks hurts, and opens you up to tec edge and other bad stuff.
You can't tutor karn, you don't have the tools of R/G to assemble tron reliably on t3 for karn. The thing that makes this deck run is treasure mage, the thing that makes R/G tron run is ancient stirrings. One can grab karn one can't. Karn is great when you can land him but I think he's a trap, you can't count on drawing him and being able to play him before your opponent can find an answer. We also don't hold many sweepers like pyroclasm so it is harder to protect karn, without the ability to minus him safety he under-performs relative to a wurmcoil or titan. He also doesn't really help us stabilize against aggro, wurmcoil, titans, and angels do bigtime.
It kind of sucks to have to defend the stock list all the time and point out flaws in development but the current stock list is super tight and there isn't much room for changes. Sideboarding is also pretty figured out, its obviously meta dependent but our tools are very much a known quantity.
So has anyone been experimenting with any variations to this deck at all? Or is stock pretty much the only thing people are running still?
Wondering about things like Karn (yes I know he can't be tutored but a 4 of will be drawn into as you durdle with counters), splash of white for Path, red for Pyroclasm, or anything like that? I hear about people theorizing about these changes but I don't recall seeing people actually trying them and posting results.
I'd do it myself if I had MTGO or the cards in paper.
Here is the UG List I have been running very successfully at my LGS (Sometimes 1st or 2nd, always top 4) and online
How does this do against our normal bad match ups (Merfolk, Affinity, Infect)?
It seems like you may as well just run RG since this is almost the same, and then you could run Pyroclasm.
Isn't the main reason to run U in the deck at all for counter spells?
Just wondering
I tried monoU for about a month, and all it is, is just a really bad control deck. Not that I have anything against control decks, they can be really fun. But if its possible to produce 7 mana on turn 3 why not do everything I can to ensure that happens.
I did look to the GR version for some inspiration on my build since they can assemble Tron so consistently, but beyond that their game plan always pans out the same. I dont feel like there is a lot of creativity in the plays or possibility of creative play. So I tried combining what made GR consistent (Ancient Stirrings and Sylvan Scying)with what made monoU consistent (Expedition Map and Treasure Mage)
Affinity sucks G1, but I replace All is Dust with more O-stones and P-Needles on CP for G2 and hope like hell they don't get nut draws. After you assemble Tron, the priority for Ancient Stirrings switches to O-stone. Then when/if you get there, the first Treasure Mage you play should bring up Platinum Angel. Only one person at my LGS plays affinity, so I just accept it. Online, I really haven't seen too much Affinity. IDK.
Infect isnt too bad as long as they dont get nut draws. I can cast All is Dust on T3 pretty regularly, and after that I can just take over with Karn exiling stuff from their hand, Platinum Angel making their poison irrelevant, and Steel Hellkite blowing up whatever creatures they manage to play. I've only played against Infect a handful of times, and its usually a 2-1 match in my favor.
I am the only Fish pilot at my LGS, so I havent played against it much. Spreading Seas sucks, but with the signets taking the place of monoU's talismans, I still dont have too much trouble getting to 7/8 mana for AiD or even the 3 and 5 for O-stone. I usually swap the numbers for AiD and O-stone after G1 and bring in P-Needle for the Vial. Karn, Platinum Angel, and Wurmcoil do the work in this MU.
I used to only have 1 Karn and slotted him in when I was playing monoU. After using him a small handful of times, I was hooked. The fact that he restarts the game with you getting some of your opponents cards or Tron already assembled, or both is huge. I've had people try to race Karn and he will ultimate before I'm dead.
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Modern UMerfolkU UTronU GRTronRG UBRKruel KommandRBU
I suppose he runs U to have the mindslaver lock and have access to Treasure Mage
The list is pretty interesting, anyway, I wouldn't cut counterspells.
In my local metagame there's A LOT of Jund and UWR, so I've cut Solemn Simulacrum and added Trading Post which, I believe, it's really good against Jund and probably UWR because you can get your artifacts almost everytime from your graveyard and goats are good against the sacrificing ability of Liliana. In addition, 4 life can be important against some aggro decks like Burn.
What do you think about it?
If I'm playing against any sort of control, more Mindslavers and Sundering Titans come in, and I do enjoy the soft lock of Spell Burst in those MU's. I just dont like Condescend because by the time it becomes good, IMO, I really don't need it.
I also like UG because of the Gifts Ungiven packages I can offer up in the control MU.
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I tried monoU for about a month, and all it is, is just a really bad control deck.
This is a poor statement. Mono U tron is less a control deck and more a Tempo/Control deck. The game plan isn't to just keep mana open every turn and counter all your opponents guys, it's to use counters and bounce to slow your opponent down while you get your Tron online.
If you want to get 7 mana on turn 3 as fast as possible play RG Tron. Adding G to to Mono U tron for Sylvan Scrying and Ancient Stirrings is just trying to make the deck do something that it isn't trying to do. At that point the only difference between RG Tron and and your list is that you have U for the Mindslaver lock and Treasure mage.
This is a poor statement. Mono U tron is less a control deck and more a Tempo/Control deck. The game plan isn't to just keep mana open every turn and counter all your opponents guys, it's to use counters and bounce to slow your opponent down while you get your Tron online.
If you want to get 7 mana on turn 3 as fast as possible play RG Tron. Adding G to to Mono U tron for Sylvan Scrying and Ancient Stirrings is just trying to make the deck do something that it isn't trying to do. At that point the only difference between RG Tron and and your list is that you have U for the Mindslaver lock and Treasure mage.
Why would you have the tron lands in your deck and then not have the goal of the deck be assembling them as efficiently as possible?
If you want to play tempo/control, there are much better options out there. Tempo is about stopping or reversing your opponent's board while advancing your own. Sure, Condescend stops a play (if you have more mana available than your opponent) and might help you set up the next tron drop (if what you need is in the next 2 - 3 cards). Then repeal only temporarily solves a permenant problem and draws you a card, but I've never seen mono-u be able to use that to its advantage like other tempo decks can.
Where do we advance our own board?
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I can see UG working as you have the land tutors + a finisher package powered by Treasure Mage. The aggro matchup still worries me a bit, if you can't setup quickly enough to find Wurmcoil or Angel. The lack of Pyroclasm might be an issue.
I can see UG working as you have the land tutors + a finisher package powered by Treasure Mage. The aggro matchup still worries me a bit, if you can't setup quickly enough to find Wurmcoil or Angel. The lack of Pyroclasm might be an issue.
Are you using the Gifts + Loam package somewhere?
Its in the side board for the control MU. Gifts for Loam, Ruins, Titan, and whatever else is relevant to the situation at hand. It always seems to get them.
I can cut it really close with most aggro decks, but AiD followed up with Wurmcoil puts me back in control. Really, its the control type MU's I've had the most problems with (affinity aside).
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If you have trouble vs control decks, try Cavern of Souls to enforce your Titan? Control is the easiest possible matchup for U Tron, though your UG list is very different.
If you have trouble vs control decks, try Cavern of Souls to enforce your Titan? Control is the easiest possible matchup for U Tron, though your UG list is very different.
The problem with control is switching gears and playing around their counters and such. It was difficult to learn how to do that with this deck, but once I did the only trouble I have is keeping myself in that mind set all the way through that MU.
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I dont get how people are saying that mono u tron is a bad control deck...this might be true if you can not get tron online but i find that if you reach mid/lategame quite often you are in the drivers seat because there is just so much to do with the massive amount of mana tron produdes and more that n few ways to lock your opponent out of the game-
It's a decent control deck. The problem is the aggro matchup. You can try to fix it in three ways:
1. Play more anti-aggro cards like Repeal, Cyclonic Rift, Hurkyl's Recall, Aetherize, Ratchet Bomb etc
2. Splash a color for anti-aggro cards like Pyroclasm, Lightning Bolt, Electrolyze, Path to Exile, Timely Reinforcements, Engineered Explosives etc
3. Splash a color to accelerate the Tron setup, like jabez007 is doing, so you can overpower them before they kill you.
Exactly. Mono U Tron's main selling point over the other options is that it's more consistent and resilient to hate. But if you manage to go fast enough (what I assume jabez007 is doing) you can also beat hate.
In my vision his deck is more Gu Tron than "Ug" Tron. You get Gr Tron's core and replace everything else with the Treasure Mage package. It's a very different beast, attacking from a very different angle and definitely can work.
Not really a fan. It always seems too slow. I know some guys tried it earlier last year but went back to Solemn.
I like Solemn because it has immediate impact. It accelerates our mana, blocks/trades with an attacker and replaces itself. Trading Post takes a lot of time to do anything really useful (also sucks versus Stony Silence, the most popular hate card people will play against you).
I think Mono-U is still the best in an unknown meta, but I think UR can have a good game vs. aggro, so if there's a lot of affinity, merfolk, and pod, I could see that splash. In general, our late game is strong, it's just a matter of getting there. I think UR did that the best.
I only play Pithing Needle and Relic, along with Maps, MB. My list is still close to the stock list, but no Signets/Talismans, no Solemn Simulacrum, only 1 Mindslaver, -1 Platinum Angel/Sundering Titan (meta call), and +3 Trinket Mage, +1 Relic, +1 Pithing Needle. Oh, and it has 4 Repeal MB and 3 Wurmcoils instead of 2 and a Platinum Angel.
SB, I switch it up, but I usually have another Relic. I have tried Engineered Explosives, Chalice of the Void (for RG Tron), or Elixir of Immortality.
Solemn is a solid card, don't get me wrong.
I've posted about Trinket Mage in this thread before, but here's how I play it:
Trinket Mage into Pithing Needle shuts down Birthing Pod, combo pieces, Lilliana, DRS, Tectonic Edge and man lands.
Relic stops the pod combo, gets rid of persist creatures, and neuters goyfs.
If I'm not being threatened, Mage can always get Expedition Map to help me reach Tron or Mindslaver lock mana. Crucially, it can also be a way to get Academy Ruins. By turn 4, I usually want a Tron land or Ruins more than an Island, but I have definitely lost some games due to not enough blue mana.
75% of the time, Trinket Mage gets Pithing Needle and shuts something down. It gets less card advantage than Solemn, but you blank one of their cards. In other words, Solemn would net you 1 card, 1 island, and maybe some life. Trinket Mage gets you Needle, which usually blanks 1 of the opponents cards and gains some life. So you trade a random card and an island for one or more of their cards. Since I care more about disrupting the opponents early game, I like Trinket Mage more.
In the end, I think Solemn might be slightly better vs. Jund and Trinket Mage slightly better vs. Pod. The card advantage matters more in the Jund match-up, and getting to 6 for Wurmcoil is important.
Yeah, I wasn't too clear. What I meant was, red helped survive to the late game versus aggro better than mono-u because of Pyroclasm.
Something else I didn't mention was that white offers a lot in terms of Celestial Colonnade, Path, Timely Reinforcements, but a lot of that stuff just didn't really make a lot of different for me.
Ideally, with EE, you can get to X=2 reliably, and X=3 if needed. With 12 colorless lands, that's hard to do. One issue is that fetches and shocks mean life loss. Another, EE on 2 will blow up your own signets. Finally, more land types means Sundering Titan is worse. I never really figured this out. I don't run the signets and have ST in the side, but still, fetching shocks hurts, and opens you up to tec edge and other bad stuff.
It kind of sucks to have to defend the stock list all the time and point out flaws in development but the current stock list is super tight and there isn't much room for changes. Sideboarding is also pretty figured out, its obviously meta dependent but our tools are very much a known quantity.
Please read through the pages on this forum for many arguments as to why Karn is poor in this deck.
Currently playing:
- UG Infect in Legacy
.
- URx Twin in Modern
http://www.twitch.tv/trei_gamer
Here is the UG List I have been running very successfully at my LGS (Sometimes 1st or 2nd, always top 4) and online
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Mine
4 Forest
2 Breeding Pool
2 Island
1 Academy Ruins
4 Karn Liberated
Creatures - 9
4 Treasure Mage
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
Artifacts - 15
4 Expedition Map
4 Chromatic Star
4 Simic Signet
2 Oblivion Stone
1 Mindslaver
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 All is Dust
I love Tron because of all the obscenely absurd things we can do, the splash of G is just so that I can do those absurd more consistently like GR.
Modern
UMerfolkU
UTronU
GRTronRG
UBRKruel KommandRBU
How does this do against our normal bad match ups (Merfolk, Affinity, Infect)?
It seems like you may as well just run RG since this is almost the same, and then you could run Pyroclasm.
Isn't the main reason to run U in the deck at all for counter spells?
Just wondering
I tried monoU for about a month, and all it is, is just a really bad control deck. Not that I have anything against control decks, they can be really fun. But if its possible to produce 7 mana on turn 3 why not do everything I can to ensure that happens.
I did look to the GR version for some inspiration on my build since they can assemble Tron so consistently, but beyond that their game plan always pans out the same. I dont feel like there is a lot of creativity in the plays or possibility of creative play. So I tried combining what made GR consistent (Ancient Stirrings and Sylvan Scying)with what made monoU consistent (Expedition Map and Treasure Mage)
Affinity sucks G1, but I replace All is Dust with more O-stones and P-Needles on CP for G2 and hope like hell they don't get nut draws. After you assemble Tron, the priority for Ancient Stirrings switches to O-stone. Then when/if you get there, the first Treasure Mage you play should bring up Platinum Angel. Only one person at my LGS plays affinity, so I just accept it. Online, I really haven't seen too much Affinity. IDK.
Infect isnt too bad as long as they dont get nut draws. I can cast All is Dust on T3 pretty regularly, and after that I can just take over with Karn exiling stuff from their hand, Platinum Angel making their poison irrelevant, and Steel Hellkite blowing up whatever creatures they manage to play. I've only played against Infect a handful of times, and its usually a 2-1 match in my favor.
I am the only Fish pilot at my LGS, so I havent played against it much. Spreading Seas sucks, but with the signets taking the place of monoU's talismans, I still dont have too much trouble getting to 7/8 mana for AiD or even the 3 and 5 for O-stone. I usually swap the numbers for AiD and O-stone after G1 and bring in P-Needle for the Vial. Karn, Platinum Angel, and Wurmcoil do the work in this MU.
I used to only have 1 Karn and slotted him in when I was playing monoU. After using him a small handful of times, I was hooked. The fact that he restarts the game with you getting some of your opponents cards or Tron already assembled, or both is huge. I've had people try to race Karn and he will ultimate before I'm dead.
Modern
UMerfolkU
UTronU
GRTronRG
UBRKruel KommandRBU
If I'm playing against any sort of control, more Mindslavers and Sundering Titans come in, and I do enjoy the soft lock of Spell Burst in those MU's. I just dont like Condescend because by the time it becomes good, IMO, I really don't need it.
I also like UG because of the Gifts Ungiven packages I can offer up in the control MU.
Modern
UMerfolkU
UTronU
GRTronRG
UBRKruel KommandRBU
This is a poor statement. Mono U tron is less a control deck and more a Tempo/Control deck. The game plan isn't to just keep mana open every turn and counter all your opponents guys, it's to use counters and bounce to slow your opponent down while you get your Tron online.
If you want to get 7 mana on turn 3 as fast as possible play RG Tron. Adding G to to Mono U tron for Sylvan Scrying and Ancient Stirrings is just trying to make the deck do something that it isn't trying to do. At that point the only difference between RG Tron and and your list is that you have U for the Mindslaver lock and Treasure mage.
Currently playing:
- UG Infect in Legacy
.
- URx Twin in Modern
http://www.twitch.tv/trei_gamer
Why would you have the tron lands in your deck and then not have the goal of the deck be assembling them as efficiently as possible?
If you want to play tempo/control, there are much better options out there. Tempo is about stopping or reversing your opponent's board while advancing your own. Sure, Condescend stops a play (if you have more mana available than your opponent) and might help you set up the next tron drop (if what you need is in the next 2 - 3 cards). Then repeal only temporarily solves a permenant problem and draws you a card, but I've never seen mono-u be able to use that to its advantage like other tempo decks can.
Where do we advance our own board?
Modern
UMerfolkU
UTronU
GRTronRG
UBRKruel KommandRBU
Are you using the Gifts + Loam package somewhere?
Its in the side board for the control MU. Gifts for Loam, Ruins, Titan, and whatever else is relevant to the situation at hand. It always seems to get them.
I can cut it really close with most aggro decks, but AiD followed up with Wurmcoil puts me back in control. Really, its the control type MU's I've had the most problems with (affinity aside).
Modern
UMerfolkU
UTronU
GRTronRG
UBRKruel KommandRBU
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
The problem with control is switching gears and playing around their counters and such. It was difficult to learn how to do that with this deck, but once I did the only trouble I have is keeping myself in that mind set all the way through that MU.
Modern
UMerfolkU
UTronU
GRTronRG
UBRKruel KommandRBU
It's a decent control deck. The problem is the aggro matchup. You can try to fix it in three ways:
1. Play more anti-aggro cards like Repeal, Cyclonic Rift, Hurkyl's Recall, Aetherize, Ratchet Bomb etc
2. Splash a color for anti-aggro cards like Pyroclasm, Lightning Bolt, Electrolyze, Path to Exile, Timely Reinforcements, Engineered Explosives etc
3. Splash a color to accelerate the Tron setup, like jabez007 is doing, so you can overpower them before they kill you.
In my vision his deck is more Gu Tron than "Ug" Tron. You get Gr Tron's core and replace everything else with the Treasure Mage package. It's a very different beast, attacking from a very different angle and definitely can work.
I like Solemn because it has immediate impact. It accelerates our mana, blocks/trades with an attacker and replaces itself. Trading Post takes a lot of time to do anything really useful (also sucks versus Stony Silence, the most popular hate card people will play against you).