I have watched Pierakor play Commit // Memory extensively and I never liked the Memory side. Sometimes it works, but not very often. Commit gets around uncounterable so it has game against just about everything. but the price is rather steep for the multiples we see in this list.
It's totally fine with a wall of text. I appreciate all input people put in the conversation here.
There is a reason I said take my advice with some amount of discretion. I play a lot of xmage but I know the player quality is lower than it is on mtgo and even scg/gp events. I know I should be using some method to keep track of my results and what cards were good.
Commit // Memory is a nice new toy in my experience. You can make your opponent shuffle away any nonland whenever they shuffle their library, you can pseudo-counter uncounterable spells, and the Memory-side is hilarious in any BGx MU (among others, probably).
I've played a lot of different versions during the past 14 months and so far I've played roughly 400 competitive leagues plus some paper tournaments. After all this time I'm back basically where I started, but with a lot more understanding of the deck. I always track back to this version because it is the most "toolboxy" version I can think of, and as such is very good at adapting to most metas without being super strong in most. It's a good list to start with when you're trying to change your deck to a current meta without knowing exactly what that meta is.
For a long time I recorded my results but then I stopped as the meta just kept on changing. Now I've started again and so far I've completed 23 leagues, but there will be many more to come. This is my current list, and it's pretty close to the "standard shoktroopa lists", with the exception of my pet card in Myr Battlesphere.
So far the only matchup with enough matches played to even begin to analyze is Izzet Phoenix, where I am 12-4. That matchup looks like it's favorable. The other matchups just have too few games, but dredge and green tron are looking like favorable matchups while UW control is pretty even and Humans slightly unfavorable. Overall my win rate is 65%, so it looks like the deck is at least playable in the current meta. There might be a more in-depth analysis of each matchup when I have played more games.
In general though, one needs to take great care when using empirical methods to analyze the deck. Magic is such a complex game with huge variety and as such there are a lot of different factors to take into considerations. The most obvious ones are metagame shifts, change in deck lists in most matchups over time, the skill of you and your opponent (not to mention physical and mental aspects which might vary a lot between different individuals and days) and the overall randomness which comes with the game. To put it bluntly: There is almost no point in analyzing your deck based purely on the results of an FNM at your local store and then try and make changes because, for example "I didn't draw my chalice this game and I really needed to so I think I might go up one more in main deck". Testing your deck is very important, of course, but I think it's very easy to be result oriented. In fact, as a human I think it's almost impossible not to be at least a little bit result oriented at times. Things like how many lands you want to play might be an exception because it affects all matchups and the overall performance of your deck in "goldfish mode". Testing one-ofs, however, is an entirely different story and requires vast amounts of data. With all of this said, I really don't mean that empirical data is useless. Not at all. More information is always helpful, but we need to take care when using it.
My advice would be to just look at win rates of different matchups and say something along the lines of "this matchups looks like it's good because I'm 46-28". But to compare win rates of different U tron lists in this way and then try and make proper adjustments purely based on empirical "evidence" can be very treacherous. My firm belief is that solid theoretical deck building and analysis is both much safer and a lot more accurate. This is especially true for a deck like U tron, which frequently runs a lot of one-ofs.
Last but not lest, I'm currently working on a primer but it will take some time before it's finished.
Sorry for the wall of text, I can't seem to keep myself from ranting once I get started.
You're Trellon on MTGO?
I like this list, and will give it a spin. I think one maindeck Dismember and some more instant speed interaction is a good call. I also like Gifts because it is so rewarding to play. Whether it's fast enough is the question. I don't know enough to evaluate that though.
I don't like the Battlesphere but I will play a second win-con or a maindeck Tormod's crypt instead. The Crypt is due to the preponderance of graveyard decks in my local meta and would not play it maindeck otherwise.
I think one of the best things that have been added to this deck over time were the Trinket package and Tolaria West. Even with the draw power of the deck that last bit of oomph that tutors, to find the right thing at the right time is really good. How did you find Gifts Ungiven?
A small FNM report from me. Well technically not FNM, just friendlies because the event didn't fire.
1-0 vs Dredge
3-0 vs U/W Control
- Dredge was a combination of opps bad draws and my good draws. I Assembled tron and put down a Wurmcoil, knowing that he will flood the board next turn with the entire deck (but without the haste thing they sometimes play), so I let him do that and just played Ugin on my turn.
-U/W control... I duuno. I played 5 times against the same player and it was never even close. The deck just does not seem to be able to stabilize easily against us because it packs so many situational cards and lacks the raw drawing power to have the right thing at just the right time. I won through Jace, through having 3 of my mines destroyed, through almost all of my win cons used up, through the loss of Academy ruins, through a flipped Azcanta - at some point they just run out of hard answers to whatever you play and you beat them some other way. Chalice on 1 was a beating, sticking any threat, even a Trinket Mage was a beating, Mindslaver was a massacre every time it fired off...
I have seen both Pierakor and Shoktroopa lose to it and I know the matchup is more even than it seems, but I'd say we're still very much favored.
How good is baby Karn? In which matchups is he really good, and in which is he really bad? What did you end up using him for during games and how did it work out for you?
I really like the card but I struggle to see how he:
a) Does not die next turn if drawing
b) Does not end up being a chump block producer for 2 turns only to die for 4 mana
Barrin, what do you think about spell burst? Whenever I put the deck together it's always a 1-of for me. It's way too fun when you lock someone with it.
Mission Briefing costs UU, and you'll often add another U to that for the spell you're trying to flashback. This means you'll need to have three Islands in play, which often you won't.
3-1
Match 1: Izzet Phoenix 2-0
Mainboard 1x Tormod's Crypt saves me from 2 Phoenixes discarded T1 and slows the opponent down for the eventual win.
Second game, Dismember takes care of the Thing in the Ice. Opponent draws into 14/4 Drake, I draw into Tron lock + Mindslaver, crack - it gets Sugrical-ed, but on his turn I decimate his hand, draw into Bolt off of Looting, discard Phoenix, Drake - keep two lands in hand. He had Gut shot so with that plus Bolt I kill the Drake, exile the graveyard with a Crypt I had in play in response to the Phoenix trigger and he concedes.
Match 2: Whir Prison 2-0
Opponent is new to the deck. I just counter things that seem relevant, eventually slam down Ugin, Ballista etc. It was a steamroll, but I really need to learn this matchup, I had no idea how to play it.
Match 3: Suicide Zoo DS 0-2
Two non games. First game I draw one landers down to a mull to six, proceed to draw no lands. Second game I draw only lands, even with Thirst. It seems like a bad matchup though, because unlike regular DS they have much more creature redundancy (Nacatl, Swiftspear etc.)/
Match 4: TitanShift 2-0
First game I ramp into T3 Trinket mage, T4 Sundering Titan and it just goes downhill from there.
Second game I Mindslaver him, play Scapeshift, sac all his lands.
Prize: 4 boosters. I proceed to get 2x Kaya (PW), 1x Dovin (PW), 1 Foil Tithe Taker, 1 Breeding Pool.
So, guys, the new 4 mana Karn can tutor twice for any artifact from the SB. I dare say this has some potential for us.
The other abilities seem somewhat fringe from our perspective, although they do function as an okay hate piece against Tron and Whir and chump creators.
Karn, the Great Creator 4
Legendary Planeswalker - Karn Rare
Activated abilities of artifacts your opponent's control cannot be activated.
+1 >> Until your next turn, up to one target noncreature artifact becomes an artifact creature with power and toughness
equal to its converted mana cost.
-2 >> You may reveal an artifact card you own from outside the game or in exile, reveal that card, and put it into your hand.
<<5>>
I see the possibility of trimming down our finisher/toolkit density in favor of more interaction and keeping the T4 ramp plan, so that we can take our finishers off of the SB or super narrow hate cards out of the deck. Things like Oblivion Stone, Sundering Titan, Platinum Angel, Tormods Crypt, Chalice, Pithing Needle... etc. may free up some slots for us for more maindeck removal and card draw.
On the other hand, this can be had with the Gifts plan and even then its often too slow in Modern.
It is. Suffice to say I don't look forward to seeing this thing on the other side of the table vs Whir Prison. Of course it hits them like a brick as well.
It does hate on G Tron pretty bad, shuts off no less than 22 cards in that deck, and if it lands they have no removal other than a resolved exile effect!
Shuts down Hardened Affinity if it can land.
Can make Talismans into bears vs Control and force them to use removal.
What I like is offsetting the weaknesses of the Toolbox where you just draw narrow cards that do nothing at times (Crypt, EE, Oblivion Stone, too many chalice) ...and die.
...This Karn also instakills all 0 cost noncreature artifacts. It also combos with our removal to kill practically any artifact played in modern. So it can deal even with things like Ensnaring Bridge via spatial/dismember.
I do like this karn, the one sided stony silence is definitely nice. The Tutoring allows us to have some silver bullets/finishers in the sideboard that are effective in any situation. E.g. cards like sundering titan, wurmcoil engine, platinum angel, silent arbiter, you get the picture. The plus actually makes our removal vs artifact control decks actually live, I would love to dismember or spatial contortion an ensnaring bridge in game 1. Additionally this can get back our Path to Exiled cards since it says from outside the game or exile.
It is definitely slow and probably better in matches we are already winning but I can envision a couple scenarios where this could steal games. Being able to tutor chalice of the void or Engineered Explosives for zero or even just Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus seems great for us. This also takes the option away from our opponents choosing what we get, like they have with gifts ungiven.
I could also see this card being a decent finisher in the Whir Prison/Lantern control archetype in addition to the Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas they are already playing.
Hypothetically we can offset the slowness of the card by replacing the finishers with our most efficient interaction, so that we can more effectively buy that one more turn we so often need.
We shouldn't stray too hard into buffing the matchups that are already good. Whir is already a very one sided matchup.
But Dismember and Spatial, mainboard without crippling ourselves. That does sound good. It also indirectly makes Condescend better because it stays valid for longer if you can kill whatever slipped past it in the first few turns, enough to have tron online.
It goes without saying, but this is another (slow) way to get Tron online.
I agree with whir being a good matchup. I think most artifact decks are pretty good matchups for us, unless they have a completely busted draw (which wouldn't matter what are playing anyway). I play the more midrange version of this deck with tons of removal already but being able to put other cards in the main and move some silver bullets to the side would make me very happy. I've been wanting to try Thought-Knot Seer in the main for a while now, and this gives me some room if the 2nd Mindslaver and my 3rd wurmcoil engine are in the side for this Karn.
Would this version be a 1 of in our archetype though? I'm leaning yes, as its a little narrow as a 4 many stony silence or but the tutoring seems good in most matchups, especially against control (which I normally find to be good for us).
Hello!
I've only recently picked up Mono U Tron, but I've been a fan of the deck a long time.
I was looking through the recent wave of spoilers and came across this:
Emergence Zone
Land
T: Add (c).
1, T, Sacrifice Emergence Zone: You may cast spells this turn as thought they had flash.
This seems like a pretty flexible tool in the tool box. Being able to flash in Chalice in response to something, or dropping Mindslaver eot sounds like good clean fun. I'm certainly going to be testing one when it arrives
Flashing Chalice in won't counter the spell if it's already on the stack. But having another colorless land would be difficult to support unless you want to just play more lands.
The blurry unconfirmed Karn seems good to me. Turns off opposing activated abilities and can grab mindslaver out of my sideboard and turns any random artifact you have into a chump blocker or attacker, it's a better Null rod/Coax from the Blind Eternities
I'd let whomever is testing the card plan out their own mana base, for sure. I imagine we could line up a dozen U Tron decks and not get exactly the same lands in any of them, but I understand your point!
That's a good observation about the Chalice, that it counters as it's being cast, not while it's on the stack. I was more excited about the idea of generating the same type of value from our non-instant spells as our instant ones. I find myself holding up mana a lot for reactive answers, but being able to threaten something unstoppable at the same time sounds like an idea worth exploring!
There is a reason I said take my advice with some amount of discretion. I play a lot of xmage but I know the player quality is lower than it is on mtgo and even scg/gp events. I know I should be using some method to keep track of my results and what cards were good.
You're Trellon on MTGO?
I like this list, and will give it a spin. I think one maindeck Dismember and some more instant speed interaction is a good call. I also like Gifts because it is so rewarding to play. Whether it's fast enough is the question. I don't know enough to evaluate that though.
I don't like the Battlesphere but I will play a second win-con or a maindeck Tormod's crypt instead. The Crypt is due to the preponderance of graveyard decks in my local meta and would not play it maindeck otherwise.
I think one of the best things that have been added to this deck over time were the Trinket package and Tolaria West. Even with the draw power of the deck that last bit of oomph that tutors, to find the right thing at the right time is really good. How did you find Gifts Ungiven?
A small FNM report from me. Well technically not FNM, just friendlies because the event didn't fire.
1-0 vs Dredge
3-0 vs U/W Control
- Dredge was a combination of opps bad draws and my good draws. I Assembled tron and put down a Wurmcoil, knowing that he will flood the board next turn with the entire deck (but without the haste thing they sometimes play), so I let him do that and just played Ugin on my turn.
-U/W control... I duuno. I played 5 times against the same player and it was never even close. The deck just does not seem to be able to stabilize easily against us because it packs so many situational cards and lacks the raw drawing power to have the right thing at just the right time. I won through Jace, through having 3 of my mines destroyed, through almost all of my win cons used up, through the loss of Academy ruins, through a flipped Azcanta - at some point they just run out of hard answers to whatever you play and you beat them some other way. Chalice on 1 was a beating, sticking any threat, even a Trinket Mage was a beating, Mindslaver was a massacre every time it fired off...
I have seen both Pierakor and Shoktroopa lose to it and I know the matchup is more even than it seems, but I'd say we're still very much favored.
How good is baby Karn? In which matchups is he really good, and in which is he really bad? What did you end up using him for during games and how did it work out for you?
I really like the card but I struggle to see how he:
a) Does not die next turn if drawing
b) Does not end up being a chump block producer for 2 turns only to die for 4 mana
It just seems... too expensive for what you get?
I might try a 1 Briefing, 1 Spell Burst split.
Mission Briefing costs UU, and you'll often add another U to that for the spell you're trying to flashback. This means you'll need to have three Islands in play, which often you won't.
WB BW Control
WRB Mardu Nahiri
Modern
UC UTron
RG Karn Metal Ponza
WRB Mardu Nahiri
3-1
Match 1: Izzet Phoenix 2-0
Mainboard 1x Tormod's Crypt saves me from 2 Phoenixes discarded T1 and slows the opponent down for the eventual win.
Second game, Dismember takes care of the Thing in the Ice. Opponent draws into 14/4 Drake, I draw into Tron lock + Mindslaver, crack - it gets Sugrical-ed, but on his turn I decimate his hand, draw into Bolt off of Looting, discard Phoenix, Drake - keep two lands in hand. He had Gut shot so with that plus Bolt I kill the Drake, exile the graveyard with a Crypt I had in play in response to the Phoenix trigger and he concedes.
Match 2: Whir Prison 2-0
Opponent is new to the deck. I just counter things that seem relevant, eventually slam down Ugin, Ballista etc. It was a steamroll, but I really need to learn this matchup, I had no idea how to play it.
Match 3: Suicide Zoo DS 0-2
Two non games. First game I draw one landers down to a mull to six, proceed to draw no lands. Second game I draw only lands, even with Thirst. It seems like a bad matchup though, because unlike regular DS they have much more creature redundancy (Nacatl, Swiftspear etc.)/
Match 4: TitanShift 2-0
First game I ramp into T3 Trinket mage, T4 Sundering Titan and it just goes downhill from there.
Second game I Mindslaver him, play Scapeshift, sac all his lands.
Prize: 4 boosters. I proceed to get 2x Kaya (PW), 1x Dovin (PW), 1 Foil Tithe Taker, 1 Breeding Pool.
A fine evening if I say so myself.
The other abilities seem somewhat fringe from our perspective, although they do function as an okay hate piece against Tron and Whir and chump creators.
Karn, the Great Creator 4
Legendary Planeswalker - Karn Rare
Activated abilities of artifacts your opponent's control cannot be activated.
+1 >> Until your next turn, up to one target noncreature artifact becomes an artifact creature with power and toughness
equal to its converted mana cost.
-2 >> You may reveal an artifact card you own from outside the game or in exile, reveal that card, and put it into your hand.
<<5>>
I see the possibility of trimming down our finisher/toolkit density in favor of more interaction and keeping the T4 ramp plan, so that we can take our finishers off of the SB or super narrow hate cards out of the deck. Things like Oblivion Stone, Sundering Titan, Platinum Angel, Tormods Crypt, Chalice, Pithing Needle... etc. may free up some slots for us for more maindeck removal and card draw.
On the other hand, this can be had with the Gifts plan and even then its often too slow in Modern.
This is a one-sided Stony Silence, which is quite powerful against several decks.
And yes, the tutor aspect is very interesting. A lot of people like more toolbox builds of Mono-U, this lets you expand these toolboxes into the SB.
It does hate on G Tron pretty bad, shuts off no less than 22 cards in that deck, and if it lands they have no removal other than a resolved exile effect!
Shuts down Hardened Affinity if it can land.
Can make Talismans into bears vs Control and force them to use removal.
What I like is offsetting the weaknesses of the Toolbox where you just draw narrow cards that do nothing at times (Crypt, EE, Oblivion Stone, too many chalice) ...and die.
...This Karn also instakills all 0 cost noncreature artifacts. It also combos with our removal to kill practically any artifact played in modern. So it can deal even with things like Ensnaring Bridge via spatial/dismember.
It is definitely slow and probably better in matches we are already winning but I can envision a couple scenarios where this could steal games. Being able to tutor chalice of the void or Engineered Explosives for zero or even just Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus seems great for us. This also takes the option away from our opponents choosing what we get, like they have with gifts ungiven.
I could also see this card being a decent finisher in the Whir Prison/Lantern control archetype in addition to the Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas they are already playing.
We shouldn't stray too hard into buffing the matchups that are already good. Whir is already a very one sided matchup.
But Dismember and Spatial, mainboard without crippling ourselves. That does sound good. It also indirectly makes Condescend better because it stays valid for longer if you can kill whatever slipped past it in the first few turns, enough to have tron online.
It goes without saying, but this is another (slow) way to get Tron online.
Would this version be a 1 of in our archetype though? I'm leaning yes, as its a little narrow as a 4 many stony silence or but the tutoring seems good in most matchups, especially against control (which I normally find to be good for us).
I've only recently picked up Mono U Tron, but I've been a fan of the deck a long time.
I was looking through the recent wave of spoilers and came across this:
Emergence Zone
Land
T: Add (c).
1, T, Sacrifice Emergence Zone: You may cast spells this turn as thought they had flash.
This seems like a pretty flexible tool in the tool box. Being able to flash in Chalice in response to something, or dropping Mindslaver eot sounds like good clean fun. I'm certainly going to be testing one when it arrives
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
That's a good observation about the Chalice, that it counters as it's being cast, not while it's on the stack. I was more excited about the idea of generating the same type of value from our non-instant spells as our instant ones. I find myself holding up mana a lot for reactive answers, but being able to threaten something unstoppable at the same time sounds like an idea worth exploring!