Nice result! Can you justify some slot like only 3 TFK, elder deep-fiend + 1 SB? or the 3th chalice MD? 5 grave-hate was not enough for beat dredge? or that was some bad draw? Platinum angel and titan was good for you during this tournament? Do you side in thought-knot seer often? My batterskull is all the time in MD what do think about this slot in SB? mindbreak trap was good during storm mu? Do you change anything after this result? thank you!
-thirst for knowledge is a good card on paper, but it's negative tempo and can be a detriment to draw multiples against a deck like humans, dredge or spirits where you don't have the time to cast it.
-elder deep-fiend was initially my gameplan for beating blue control decks in a timely fashion, but it ended up being an all star in every single match-up. it allows you to stick sundering titan or ugin which is usually GG. it's also one of the best cards against eldrazi midrange strats, and if you can assemble 8 mana, it's probably one of the most (if not THE most) powerful card against other creature strats. [moving forward, i am going to test heavier counts of the card in the main deck]
-with regards to chalice, in my research i noticed there are notably 2 successful types of blue tron decks. 3 mainboard chalice or 1 mainboard chalice. multiple chalice works extremely well with unfair cards like gemstone caverns & platinum angel. we opted for the 3 chalice list to get as many free wins as possible, and it did not disappoint. i highly recommend playing 3 chalice and cutting fluff like trinket mage/talisman/solemn/etc if you have a strong desire to win, but not so much a strong desire for fun.
-dredge is an unfavourable matchup. we strongly considered using relics in the main deck, but it is extremely awkward when your starting hand game 1 has a relic and you don't know whether or not to keep because you don't know if your opponent is playing dredge yet or not. i personally believe 6-7 pieces of graveyard hate is optimal, surgical being the best option since it cannot be nature's claimed or grudged and has equity with snapcaster mage. i would recommend 3 surgical, 2 cage, 2 relic if you expect heavy amounts of dredge. [my actual loss in the tournament was unfortunate. had i drawn a third land in game 1 i would have won since my opponent had a nonfunctional draw, and game 2 i mulliganed to 4 looking for a hate piece and lost shortly after.]
-titan was good for me. angel did its job but was not my favourite. platinum angel + chalice in game 1 can really steal a lot of games, and it gave me a strong hedge against spirits & aggressive strategies, however you literally always have to side it out which is awkward. i was happy enough with the angel for this tournament. moving forward i will still play titan, but angel will be a hard metagame call as it is only good specifically in game 1 against aether vial decks and occasionally dredge. if you can dodge conflag from dredge for 1 turn and hold up counter magic for the rest of the game in game 1, you will win.
-this was my first tournament playing thought-knot seer in the sideboard. i loved it. we had primarily put it in for the gtron and adnauseam matchup. if an opposing deck plays a lot of x/3 creatures it can be a nice wall, and the card advantage and information is lovely. it's only really poor against jund, uw, and other decks that are forced to leave in removal OR decks that can fly over it such as spirits. i brought it in in 6 of my 8 matches (not UW control or izzet phoenix) and won every game i drew/cast it.
-batterskull is very low power level. even in the matchups where it's good, it's just ok, and in the matchups it's bad, it's horrendous. the decision was between batterskull or platinum angel in the main deck for the role of stabilizer. the thought process we had was to play the most powerful options, thus generating the most free wins so batterskull fell to the sideboard. i would honestly cut it for a third surgical extraction personally.
-mindbreak trap is a rather cheeky pet card of mine. i didn't draw it the entire tournament, but it's a fantastic one against storm, eldrazi midrange, UW control, and phoenix strategies. The standard is to play 2 summary dismissal, but summary dismissal is actually quite bad against storm and izzet phoenix. izzet phoenix was a deck we particularly expected a lot of in this tournament given the deck's recent popularity. [Alternatively, this is a fun slot for something like commit//memory or spell burst if you have a liking for those ones]
-moving forward these are some ideas i have in my notes
1.) a similar list to this one with 3 mainboard elder deep-fiend and 1 additional sideboard
2.) a similar list with a third surgical instead of batterskull in the sideboard and a fourth thirst instead of platinum angel
3.) a more creature-based list that plays 4 thought-knot seer, 3 ballista, batterskull, and the full 4 copies of elder deep-fiend in place of counter magic which i found to be extremely weak against the current modern metagame.
4.) a more spell-based list with 4 chalice 4 thirst 2 supreme will 1 commit//memory and torrential gearhulk
additional play notes; mulligan very aggressively with this deck. i mulliganed ~70% of my games at this tournament to have a stronger starting hand. i have a strong belief that this is the most powerful deck in modern, but the skill curve is rather high. It definitely rewards practice, even moreso than other decks in the format. i would recommend playing the deck at about 5-10 lower level events, getting yourself approx 40-50 tournament level matches before entering a large event with it.
I was thinking about how to put in more cantrips, because you need to find your hate really fast, then I realised I could have both hate and a cantrip in relic so in that goes (in place of chalices I don't have). Ghost quarter is to replace caverns on the play (plus bonus extra hate against tron and control). Cutting a thirst was hard to do but it seemed to work for Candy and since I am replacing it with 1 supreme will I feel like I am not losing out on dig.
I haven't decided on those flex slots. Sadly I don't have more surgicals or chalices atm (or EDFs). But I do have a lot of the other cards people have in their sides what deck am I not hating enough that I need to put more into?
You can almost never go wrong with negates for the side board. I could see in your side going up a ballista, tks or spatial/dismember in the side to help you creature matchups even more
Just for the record, if you can assemble 8 mana, Ugin...
ugin does not have flash. ugin also does not do much against eldrazi, arcbound ravager decks, other tron decks, most blue decks, every combo deck, and can be VERY awkward to cast into an untapped vial or collected company mana. elder deep-fiend guarantees a lot more stabilizes than ugin because of flash. it's also a fast clock against combo decks like krark-clan, storm, titan shift, and ad nauseam that you can get into play essentially for free by tapping their mana sources on their upkeep. elder deep-fiend is basically a flash time walk tarmogoyf cryptic tap that can't be effectively hit by reflector mage, dismember, lightning bolt, fatal push, kitesail freebooter, & more.
don't get me wrong, ugin is great, but elder deep-fiend is absurd
Elder deep fiend does not seem very good for how much you have to pay for him. He generates no card advantage, once on the board he is essentially just a goyf, his ability is not that exciting, he costs two UU. Rather have any of our other finishers or even on a direct comparison torrential gearhulk.
you can pay 8 colourless for elder deep-fiend, so it doesn't require UU. i recommend sleeving the card up and playing some matches with it. if you don't end up liking it, then that's fine, but it's much better than you are giving it credit for.
Ok maybe it is decent. I just don’t think it will make it into my 75 over our other finishers.
Speaking of, I’ve noticed a lot of list cutting platinum angel? What’s up with that? Has the field become much more hostil towards her?
Few other thoughts. Why are most of the lists I see online running tormods crypt over Grafdigger cage? Seems better to have a long term lock and it’s only major downside is turning off snapcaster.
Also, if you had to run an extra tutor beyond the first treasure mage what would it be.
1. A second treasure mage
2. Trinket mage
3. Fabricate
I’m leaning toward fabricate because it’s so versatile for grabbing sb pieces or win cons. Obviously you lose the body. Looking forward to anybody’s opinion!
Here is just my two cents. I've played the deck for three years now, I'm still learning new stuff and angles. However the skills floor of this deck is actually pretty low, if you've played control before I'm sure you can figure the deck out. But just proxy it up or play it on a free online platform (I'd suggest this when thinking about playing any deck). Blue Tron is a definitely a fun and rewarding deck when you master it.
Tldr: proxy it up. Play it proxied with friends for like two weeks. Decide after that.
Here is just my two cents. I've played the deck for three years now, I'm still learning new stuff and angles. However the skills floor of this deck is actually pretty low, if you've played control before I'm sure you can figure the deck out. But just proxy it up or play it on a free online platform (I'd suggest this when thinking about playing any deck). Blue Tron is a definitely a fun and rewarding deck when you master it.
Tldr: proxy it up. Play it proxied with friends for like two weeks. Decide after that.
Thanks!
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Decks Modern UGWRB Humans G Mono-Green Tron UWBR Ad Nauseam
This thread is disappointing.. =( all im gonna say
Agree, but what is there to discuss? No individual seems to have put up any kind of results at larger tournaments recently. There doesn't appear to be anything new that has entered the card pool. Every idea relating to the existing card pool has been discussed, argued, and is now almost instantly quashed by the more seasoned players of the deck. Additionally, there's been a schism in the overall deck construction, with 1 side being "Toolbox" (e.g., 1 of silver bullets like Titan, Angel, etc.) and non-toolbox (e.g., multiple Ballistas and Wurmcoils).
What is there to discuss? It seems like the only thing to argue about is which build is "correct", but, again, nobody's putting up big tournament results, so then it's a matter of preference. The only thing to really discuss is, can the deck even compete in this meta?
Hey man I'm always trying new cards and I'm always getting ridiculed. I suppose I need to start making appearances in the real world. But you guys definitely get all worked on up on the "2" kinds of lists. I have always ran talisman and or 1x gemstone cavern. Well the caverns came on board when the format picked up pace by a turn. But anyways, I would love for someone like Pierakor to play "competitive leagues" and I would like him to play a modern challenge here or there. Lord knows i've only played 2 challenges in the last 3 months. Life has been a little hectic as of late. But here is a worthy discussion and ignore any previous thoughts on this card... Silent Arbiter.
Can / is it good right now?
I am not sure. I have not played it in a very very long time. However I have been told that it is very good in todays meta. I can be on board with running him however we must delve into the logic behind it deeper. If we run 1x Silent Arbiter, I have these questions for you.
1. Are we running any sort of "tutor" effect for him?
2. Silent Arbiter is dead vs control, combo (i realize its great v Empty the Warrens), scapeshift, and some others. Is he a turn late and a dollar short on the draw game 1 v the aggressive decks?
3. Leads me to another concern, are we running any sort of acceleration in our list to speed up the process of getting this dude into play?
4. Is Silent Arbiter worth a "flex" slot over other great 4 drops like gifts ungiven, solemn, karn scion hookeydo thingamajig whatchamacallit guy, or whatever random powerful cards you can think of. Maindeck relics, spellskites, platinum angels.
5. Does this one slot really make the deck that much better or that much worse? I'll help answer this one. There is no right or wrong answer its just like anything else. It all hinges on your interpretation of "powerful" or "gamebreaking" in whatever scenarios or situations you run through in your brain prior to playing a tournament of any kind.
And a closing sentiment regarding the "2" styles of this deck. I, being shoktroopa, have always played magic the gathering with the concept of wanting to keep my opponent guessing at all times. Predictability and straight forwardness( Like this UR phoenix deck and burn) take away a very important aspect of spell slinging. The lists that I tend to play always have the ability to win games on the play or on the draw. The talismans, gemstone cavern, spell snares or pierces, are there for me to be able sideboard in our out depending on being on the play or draw. I believe we have to be able to cast reactive spells (removal, bounce, counterspells) as early and as effectively as possible in 75% of the games you play in modern. When I don't have caverns or talismans i feel like there is no way for me to dig myself out of an early hole against these aggro decks. Island - Talismans slots can't be compared because the ability to be a turn faster and have a colored source is insane sometimes. Do you always need or want the talismans?? absolutely not. Hence why they get boarded out all the time. But when you do need that extra speed boost having them in your list can be "game changing". There is no right or wrong reason to run any card and its your interpretation of the format and what you feel people will be playing on that given day. There is logic and reason behind many of the random ass card choices or decisions I make but does that make them right or wrong? Who knows.
I need some real convincing on whether or not Silent Arbiter is playable. I'm trying to get people to buy into Trading Post as playable. =)
I agree that the differentiation of the "2 lists" is sometimes overblown. Ultimately, the goal and strategy of all UTron lists is very similar, if not entirely identical. The devil's in the details though...
With the "Traditional" list, you have your tutors to get to your silver bullet cards and rely more heavily on winning games by stalling out until you can get to a silver bullet. Alternatively, you can win a ground and pound match with your tutors and Wurmcoils.
With the "Newer" list, you're down the tutors and have eliminated most of those silver bullet cards. You can still play the game stall tactic and get to an Ugin or Slaver, but you're also looking at ground advantage or control through multiple Ballistas and Wurmcoils. This is in stark contrast to landing a big silver bullet and hoping the opponent either has no answer or can't answer quickly enough and you can build a defense via counterspells to protect it.
So, I agree that the lists are largely similar in card selection and strategy, but there are some fundamental differences between them. That plays into the flex spot selections, which you fill with Talismans, for acceleration. I personally don't like Talisman. While I appreciate the acceleration aspect of the card, I'd rather be doing other things with my mana on those turns because it suits my playstyle better.
As for Silent Arbiter, it was a card I always wanted to make work in the deck, but could never quite get there. Then I saw a list someone posted on here with multiple copies in the Sideboard and it clicked, for me.
I can't speak to your questions about tutoring Arbiter and how strong the card is in the "Traditional" list as a one of main board. I can, however, say that I think it resolves a lot of our issues as a multi-copy card (3ish) in the sideboard.
My primary reasons:
1. Aggro. A common concern among pilots throughout this thread is the inability to keep up with the threats resolved by aggro decks. Additional copies of Spatial Contortion and Dismember have been used. Spatial misses some cards. Dismember hurts. Another idea was adding in Walking Ballistas. The "New" lists I have seen have done this, playing 3-4 Ballistas and 2-3 Spatials. Arbiter plays into this strategy nicely by adding a decent blocker to the field, with a great static effect that resolves the issue we have with aggro decks going so wide so quickly. It then takes the place of Dismember, so we're not hurting ourselves to remove creatures from the board that Spatial can't deal with, while accomplishing the goal of ensuring the opponent can't attack us repeatedly with unanswerable battlefield threats.
2. Dredge. Yes, dredge is also a fast, creature intensive deck. However, it utilizes the graveyard for its path to fast, ongoing attacks. This means the manner of stopping it is different than traditional Aggro and involves multiple copies of GY hate, rather than kill spells. I've personally never been a fan of packing a ton of GY hate in the sideboard because the decks that utilize the GY, in my local meta at least, aren't ones that I'm overly worried about, so I've gone months without any GY hate in the side without issue. Then, dredge came back into the meta, requiring that I pack GY hate and occupy valuable side board slots with cards that I only found useful against that 1 specific deck. Arbiter resolves that issue because it slows Dredge's creature attack on the battlefield plane, as opposed to the GY area. Now I can go back to not having GY specific hate just for Dredge and can utilize a card, Arbiter, that also stops other deck archetypes that I have problems with.
I would love to see some Trading Post, maybe we could start running a bunch of Filigree Familiars to keep us alive and get value with the Posts. I played a budget version of U Tron (from MTGGoldfish) that used the posts, and it was fine, but even slower than normal U tron.
Forgive my ignorance, but could anyone enlighten me how Trading Post should be of benefit to us? Is this banking on having the time to go through the whole Post cycle? Shenanigans with Wurmcoil Engine? Shenanigans with Academy Ruins? I don‘t usually find myself in position to freely sacrifice artifacts or creatures, nor do I have the time to go through the first two steps.
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Modern: Death&Taxes / U Tron / G Tron / Goblins
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
Forgive my ignorance, but could anyone enlighten me how Trading Post should be of benefit to us? Is this banking on having the time to go through the whole Post cycle? Shenanigans with Wurmcoil Engine? Shenanigans with Academy Ruins? I don‘t usually find myself in position to freely sacrifice artifacts or creatures, nor do I have the time to go through the first two steps.
Multiple options, depending on board state and deck building preferences. Just another option to allow us to engage in, as you say, "shenanigans".
I believe the creature sacrifice option is looking more at the expendable tutors that are potentially useless on board, after their triggers have resolved (ie., Trinket Mage and Treasure Mage). Solemn Simulacrum would also be a viable target, especially for the draw trigger. Meanwhile, Talismans or a useless Engineered Explosives or Chalice of the Void, on 0, are easy artifacts and, in the latter case, "free" to pitch for the Draw option on Post.
-thirst for knowledge is a good card on paper, but it's negative tempo and can be a detriment to draw multiples against a deck like humans, dredge or spirits where you don't have the time to cast it.
-elder deep-fiend was initially my gameplan for beating blue control decks in a timely fashion, but it ended up being an all star in every single match-up. it allows you to stick sundering titan or ugin which is usually GG. it's also one of the best cards against eldrazi midrange strats, and if you can assemble 8 mana, it's probably one of the most (if not THE most) powerful card against other creature strats. [moving forward, i am going to test heavier counts of the card in the main deck]
-with regards to chalice, in my research i noticed there are notably 2 successful types of blue tron decks. 3 mainboard chalice or 1 mainboard chalice. multiple chalice works extremely well with unfair cards like gemstone caverns & platinum angel. we opted for the 3 chalice list to get as many free wins as possible, and it did not disappoint. i highly recommend playing 3 chalice and cutting fluff like trinket mage/talisman/solemn/etc if you have a strong desire to win, but not so much a strong desire for fun.
-dredge is an unfavourable matchup. we strongly considered using relics in the main deck, but it is extremely awkward when your starting hand game 1 has a relic and you don't know whether or not to keep because you don't know if your opponent is playing dredge yet or not. i personally believe 6-7 pieces of graveyard hate is optimal, surgical being the best option since it cannot be nature's claimed or grudged and has equity with snapcaster mage. i would recommend 3 surgical, 2 cage, 2 relic if you expect heavy amounts of dredge. [my actual loss in the tournament was unfortunate. had i drawn a third land in game 1 i would have won since my opponent had a nonfunctional draw, and game 2 i mulliganed to 4 looking for a hate piece and lost shortly after.]
-titan was good for me. angel did its job but was not my favourite. platinum angel + chalice in game 1 can really steal a lot of games, and it gave me a strong hedge against spirits & aggressive strategies, however you literally always have to side it out which is awkward. i was happy enough with the angel for this tournament. moving forward i will still play titan, but angel will be a hard metagame call as it is only good specifically in game 1 against aether vial decks and occasionally dredge. if you can dodge conflag from dredge for 1 turn and hold up counter magic for the rest of the game in game 1, you will win.
-this was my first tournament playing thought-knot seer in the sideboard. i loved it. we had primarily put it in for the gtron and adnauseam matchup. if an opposing deck plays a lot of x/3 creatures it can be a nice wall, and the card advantage and information is lovely. it's only really poor against jund, uw, and other decks that are forced to leave in removal OR decks that can fly over it such as spirits. i brought it in in 6 of my 8 matches (not UW control or izzet phoenix) and won every game i drew/cast it.
-batterskull is very low power level. even in the matchups where it's good, it's just ok, and in the matchups it's bad, it's horrendous. the decision was between batterskull or platinum angel in the main deck for the role of stabilizer. the thought process we had was to play the most powerful options, thus generating the most free wins so batterskull fell to the sideboard. i would honestly cut it for a third surgical extraction personally.
-mindbreak trap is a rather cheeky pet card of mine. i didn't draw it the entire tournament, but it's a fantastic one against storm, eldrazi midrange, UW control, and phoenix strategies. The standard is to play 2 summary dismissal, but summary dismissal is actually quite bad against storm and izzet phoenix. izzet phoenix was a deck we particularly expected a lot of in this tournament given the deck's recent popularity. [Alternatively, this is a fun slot for something like commit//memory or spell burst if you have a liking for those ones]
-moving forward these are some ideas i have in my notes
1.) a similar list to this one with 3 mainboard elder deep-fiend and 1 additional sideboard
2.) a similar list with a third surgical instead of batterskull in the sideboard and a fourth thirst instead of platinum angel
3.) a more creature-based list that plays 4 thought-knot seer, 3 ballista, batterskull, and the full 4 copies of elder deep-fiend in place of counter magic which i found to be extremely weak against the current modern metagame.
4.) a more spell-based list with 4 chalice 4 thirst 2 supreme will 1 commit//memory and torrential gearhulk
additional play notes; mulligan very aggressively with this deck. i mulliganed ~70% of my games at this tournament to have a stronger starting hand. i have a strong belief that this is the most powerful deck in modern, but the skill curve is rather high. It definitely rewards practice, even moreso than other decks in the format. i would recommend playing the deck at about 5-10 lower level events, getting yourself approx 40-50 tournament level matches before entering a large event with it.
Okay I think I"ll try this.
2 Walking ballista
1 Snapcaster mage
1 Treasure mage
2 Wurmcoil engine
1 Torrential gearhulk
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
Artifacts (8)
1 chalice of the void
4 expedition map
2 relic of progenitus
1 oblivion stone
Instants (16)
3 condescend
3 repeal
3 remand
1 cyclonic rift
1 spatial contortion
3 thirst for knowledge
1 supreme will
1 Dismember
2 Ugin, the spirit dragon
Land (24)
12 tron lands
7 Island
2 Field of ruin
1 Academy Ruins
1 River of Tears
1 Gemstone caverns
2 Grafdigger's cage
1 Surgical extraction
2 Spatial Contortion
2 Spreading seas
1 Dismember
2 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Mindslaver
1 Ghost quarter
3 flex slots
I was thinking about how to put in more cantrips, because you need to find your hate really fast, then I realised I could have both hate and a cantrip in relic so in that goes (in place of chalices I don't have). Ghost quarter is to replace caverns on the play (plus bonus extra hate against tron and control). Cutting a thirst was hard to do but it seemed to work for Candy and since I am replacing it with 1 supreme will I feel like I am not losing out on dig.
I haven't decided on those flex slots. Sadly I don't have more surgicals or chalices atm (or EDFs). But I do have a lot of the other cards people have in their sides what deck am I not hating enough that I need to put more into?
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
ugin does not have flash. ugin also does not do much against eldrazi, arcbound ravager decks, other tron decks, most blue decks, every combo deck, and can be VERY awkward to cast into an untapped vial or collected company mana. elder deep-fiend guarantees a lot more stabilizes than ugin because of flash. it's also a fast clock against combo decks like krark-clan, storm, titan shift, and ad nauseam that you can get into play essentially for free by tapping their mana sources on their upkeep. elder deep-fiend is basically a flash time walk tarmogoyf cryptic tap that can't be effectively hit by reflector mage, dismember, lightning bolt, fatal push, kitesail freebooter, & more.
don't get me wrong, ugin is great, but elder deep-fiend is absurd
Speaking of, I’ve noticed a lot of list cutting platinum angel? What’s up with that? Has the field become much more hostil towards her?
Few other thoughts. Why are most of the lists I see online running tormods crypt over Grafdigger cage? Seems better to have a long term lock and it’s only major downside is turning off snapcaster.
Also, if you had to run an extra tutor beyond the first treasure mage what would it be.
1. A second treasure mage
2. Trinket mage
3. Fabricate
I’m leaning toward fabricate because it’s so versatile for grabbing sb pieces or win cons. Obviously you lose the body. Looking forward to anybody’s opinion!
Modern
UGWRB Humans
G Mono-Green Tron
UWBR Ad Nauseam
Youtube Channel
My stream:
www.twitch.tv/pierakor
My Disco:
https://discord.gg/gTt6xHd
Tldr: proxy it up. Play it proxied with friends for like two weeks. Decide after that.
Thanks!
Modern
UGWRB Humans
G Mono-Green Tron
UWBR Ad Nauseam
Agree, but what is there to discuss? No individual seems to have put up any kind of results at larger tournaments recently. There doesn't appear to be anything new that has entered the card pool. Every idea relating to the existing card pool has been discussed, argued, and is now almost instantly quashed by the more seasoned players of the deck. Additionally, there's been a schism in the overall deck construction, with 1 side being "Toolbox" (e.g., 1 of silver bullets like Titan, Angel, etc.) and non-toolbox (e.g., multiple Ballistas and Wurmcoils).
What is there to discuss? It seems like the only thing to argue about is which build is "correct", but, again, nobody's putting up big tournament results, so then it's a matter of preference. The only thing to really discuss is, can the deck even compete in this meta?
Can / is it good right now?
I am not sure. I have not played it in a very very long time. However I have been told that it is very good in todays meta. I can be on board with running him however we must delve into the logic behind it deeper. If we run 1x Silent Arbiter, I have these questions for you.
1. Are we running any sort of "tutor" effect for him?
2. Silent Arbiter is dead vs control, combo (i realize its great v Empty the Warrens), scapeshift, and some others. Is he a turn late and a dollar short on the draw game 1 v the aggressive decks?
3. Leads me to another concern, are we running any sort of acceleration in our list to speed up the process of getting this dude into play?
4. Is Silent Arbiter worth a "flex" slot over other great 4 drops like gifts ungiven, solemn, karn scion hookeydo thingamajig whatchamacallit guy, or whatever random powerful cards you can think of. Maindeck relics, spellskites, platinum angels.
5. Does this one slot really make the deck that much better or that much worse? I'll help answer this one. There is no right or wrong answer its just like anything else. It all hinges on your interpretation of "powerful" or "gamebreaking" in whatever scenarios or situations you run through in your brain prior to playing a tournament of any kind.
And a closing sentiment regarding the "2" styles of this deck. I, being shoktroopa, have always played magic the gathering with the concept of wanting to keep my opponent guessing at all times. Predictability and straight forwardness( Like this UR phoenix deck and burn) take away a very important aspect of spell slinging. The lists that I tend to play always have the ability to win games on the play or on the draw. The talismans, gemstone cavern, spell snares or pierces, are there for me to be able sideboard in our out depending on being on the play or draw. I believe we have to be able to cast reactive spells (removal, bounce, counterspells) as early and as effectively as possible in 75% of the games you play in modern. When I don't have caverns or talismans i feel like there is no way for me to dig myself out of an early hole against these aggro decks. Island - Talismans slots can't be compared because the ability to be a turn faster and have a colored source is insane sometimes. Do you always need or want the talismans?? absolutely not. Hence why they get boarded out all the time. But when you do need that extra speed boost having them in your list can be "game changing". There is no right or wrong reason to run any card and its your interpretation of the format and what you feel people will be playing on that given day. There is logic and reason behind many of the random ass card choices or decisions I make but does that make them right or wrong? Who knows.
I need some real convincing on whether or not Silent Arbiter is playable. I'm trying to get people to buy into Trading Post as playable. =)
I agree that the differentiation of the "2 lists" is sometimes overblown. Ultimately, the goal and strategy of all UTron lists is very similar, if not entirely identical. The devil's in the details though...
With the "Traditional" list, you have your tutors to get to your silver bullet cards and rely more heavily on winning games by stalling out until you can get to a silver bullet. Alternatively, you can win a ground and pound match with your tutors and Wurmcoils.
With the "Newer" list, you're down the tutors and have eliminated most of those silver bullet cards. You can still play the game stall tactic and get to an Ugin or Slaver, but you're also looking at ground advantage or control through multiple Ballistas and Wurmcoils. This is in stark contrast to landing a big silver bullet and hoping the opponent either has no answer or can't answer quickly enough and you can build a defense via counterspells to protect it.
So, I agree that the lists are largely similar in card selection and strategy, but there are some fundamental differences between them. That plays into the flex spot selections, which you fill with Talismans, for acceleration. I personally don't like Talisman. While I appreciate the acceleration aspect of the card, I'd rather be doing other things with my mana on those turns because it suits my playstyle better.
As for Silent Arbiter, it was a card I always wanted to make work in the deck, but could never quite get there. Then I saw a list someone posted on here with multiple copies in the Sideboard and it clicked, for me.
I can't speak to your questions about tutoring Arbiter and how strong the card is in the "Traditional" list as a one of main board. I can, however, say that I think it resolves a lot of our issues as a multi-copy card (3ish) in the sideboard.
My primary reasons:
1. Aggro. A common concern among pilots throughout this thread is the inability to keep up with the threats resolved by aggro decks. Additional copies of Spatial Contortion and Dismember have been used. Spatial misses some cards. Dismember hurts. Another idea was adding in Walking Ballistas. The "New" lists I have seen have done this, playing 3-4 Ballistas and 2-3 Spatials. Arbiter plays into this strategy nicely by adding a decent blocker to the field, with a great static effect that resolves the issue we have with aggro decks going so wide so quickly. It then takes the place of Dismember, so we're not hurting ourselves to remove creatures from the board that Spatial can't deal with, while accomplishing the goal of ensuring the opponent can't attack us repeatedly with unanswerable battlefield threats.
2. Dredge. Yes, dredge is also a fast, creature intensive deck. However, it utilizes the graveyard for its path to fast, ongoing attacks. This means the manner of stopping it is different than traditional Aggro and involves multiple copies of GY hate, rather than kill spells. I've personally never been a fan of packing a ton of GY hate in the sideboard because the decks that utilize the GY, in my local meta at least, aren't ones that I'm overly worried about, so I've gone months without any GY hate in the side without issue. Then, dredge came back into the meta, requiring that I pack GY hate and occupy valuable side board slots with cards that I only found useful against that 1 specific deck. Arbiter resolves that issue because it slows Dredge's creature attack on the battlefield plane, as opposed to the GY area. Now I can go back to not having GY specific hate just for Dredge and can utilize a card, Arbiter, that also stops other deck archetypes that I have problems with.
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
Multiple options, depending on board state and deck building preferences. Just another option to allow us to engage in, as you say, "shenanigans".
I believe the creature sacrifice option is looking more at the expendable tutors that are potentially useless on board, after their triggers have resolved (ie., Trinket Mage and Treasure Mage). Solemn Simulacrum would also be a viable target, especially for the draw trigger. Meanwhile, Talismans or a useless Engineered Explosives or Chalice of the Void, on 0, are easy artifacts and, in the latter case, "free" to pitch for the Draw option on Post.