I used to play this deck kind of like mono blue eldrazi with the kind of traditional counter package in here (4tks and Ulamog in the main). Ulamog is good but I think is a win more/less. you cast him and win the game normally but getting to 10 mana isn't always the easiest for a deck, especially now with tons of LD lands in the meta now or blazing fast aggro decks. TKS is still in my sideboard as a blocker and combo/control hate card. It comes in against a ton of decks, especially ones were the lifegain from wurmcoil isn't needed.
I'm up to 4 ballista, 4 Dismember, and 3 wurmcoil in the main now it feels beautiful. My local meta is mostly creature aggro and midrange now so doing this makes a lot of sense. the dismembers allowed me to steal game one vs hollow one last night. He didn't hollow 4 me on turn 2, like last time him and I played.
Providing a report on the PPTQ event I've played in yesterday. I went 4-2 and finished 10th in a 48 player tournament. I may be could have sneaked into the top 8 had the 8 players on top in the final round not decide to draw each of their matches.
Round 1: Abzan Mid-Range - L - 1-2
This is a match-up that I feel we are favored but somehow I ended up losing.
G1 - Opponent won dice roll and was on the play. Match grinded out a bit but the resilience of his threats and me not drawing into a finisher like Ugin or Mindslaver late into the game hurt me. It's also worth noting that I drew a wurmcoil engine way too late in the game as well.
G2 - Won this match in grindy fashion. I played a copy of Torrential Gearhulk in place of a 2nd copy of Ugin that was borrowed and wasn't returned in time for the deck list submission. Ugin would have ended the match on the spot but Gearhulk was enough in this one since I used it to thirst for knowledge for a wurmcoil engine, flash blocked a 6/7 tarmogoyf and used spatial contortion to finish it off. The wurmcoil closed out the game especially because I had academy ruins in play.
G3 - Lost this game in another grindy match, Gearhulk wasn't enough to win this one but definitely if it were an Ugin, I would have been able to win the game almost on the spot.
Round 2: Blue White Spirits - L - 1-2
G1 - Got beaten down, double drogskol captain came in and I was out of it in 5 turns.
G2 - Assembled tron on turn 3 and dropped a wurmcoil engine. No PTE from opponent and had no answer. Followed up by a Walking Ballista for 4 the next turn and it was game over.
G3 - Wasn't able to play magic much in this match. I got beaten down by a wanderer, a supreme phantom, and a phantasmal image copying phantom.
Round 3: RG Ponza - W - 2-0
G1 - did not get to tron because of land destruction but was able to apply the right amount of control to hit 6 lands and drop a wurmcoil engine. He did not have much of an answer to it and it was followed up by another wurmcoil engine and it was pretty much game over.
G2 - tron was assembled but 2 bloodmoons were in play. Turn 8 my opponent has an inferno titan and my life total was down to 9, I flash blocked with a gearhulk and targeted supreme will to dig which got me an o-stone. Casted it next turn and popped everything up freeing tron and wrecking his titan as well as mana dorks and utopia sprawl. Mindlsaver lock followed the following turn.
Round 4: Green Devotion - W - 2-0
G1 - dismembered opponents first arbor elf. turn 2 he casted a sprawl and then an arbor elf, but dismembered the 2nd elf again. he got stuck with 2 lands and a sprawl, countered a couple of harmonize attempts to draw cards and could not do anything else during the next 3 turns which pretty much sealed his fate.
G2 - Killed dork again first chance I got. spreading seas on his forest with a sprawl dropping the sprawl. then repealing my seas for draw value, then recasting it on his Nykthos - this was so much value and held back opponent hard from going off. a few controlling turns later and an Ugin drop, the game ended.
Round 5: Storm - W - 2-1
G1 - Did not have a fairly good hand against storm. Got popped and comboed on turn 6.
G2 - Turn 3 tron was assembled, where I cast a chalice on 2 which basically beat off the opponent.
G3 - Turn 5 we continously played lands, left mana opened and passed turn. I did not have any counterspell but the opponent did not know about it. I had a Chalice of the void and I decided to just risk it and cast it for 2. If he had a remand then it would have been game the next turn, but he didn't. I cast an anticipate on turn 3 and he tapped for mana but said no it's good (implying that he had a counter spell) but I strongly felt like it was a bluff which made me confident in dropping the chalice and it paid off. Opponent couldn't do much, trying hard to get a repeal or wipe away that he boarded in but I was fairly confident because I had a negate and a summary dismissal on hand, and I flashed in a nimble obstructionist to clock him.
Round 6: Hardened Scales affinity - W - 2-1
G1 - dismember, walking ballista on 1 - kept him from having an active steel overseer in play. turn 6 hard cast wurmcoil engine, and turn 7 assembled tron for a massive ballista. game was over.
G2 - mulligan to 5 and was forced to keep a one lander. did not draw a land the next 2 turns and scooped it up. he had an imposing board that would kill me the following turn anyway.
G3 - Turn 3 Tron. Grinded it out with him and kept myself alive with a walking ballista and a wurmcoil engine. Got a mindslaver in and immediately activated.
Sacrificed opponents hangarback walker to his ravager (he also has a scales in play) then sacrificed all thopters to ravager, sacrificed his welding jar and opal for it as well. then transferred all his counters to his ballista and had it shoot himself. Game over.
To summarize - I really feel like a blue white spirits match up is among the worst possible match ups for us, just as merfolk is although not a lot of players run them anymore, i think they're the new version of that deck. Hope anyone could provide some suggestions on how I can better combat this deck.
The 2nd Ugin was crucial in the Abzan round 1, on game 2 it really would have been game winning to have an Ugin instead of a replacement gearhulk I put in. It also would've meant I wouldn't have been paired down to the blue white spirits deck and could have gotten a much much better start.
I started 0-2 but never lost the desire to win matches. Was able to grind out to 12 points which was pretty sad because the 8th placer had 13 points (got their last point from drawing the 6th round).
Is summary dismissal effective? I feel like storm can at least sometimes if not often just remand it? I stopped looking at counterflux as a storm trump after the first time I had them just remand their grapeshot, let counterflux resolve, then grapeshot me again :S
Summary dismissal isn't even uncounterable so they can just remand it straight up too Does it have some other useful application?
4 anticipate 2 thirst seems just wrong. For one more mana thirst lets you draw all 3 and pitch your worst 1-2, letting you turn dead cards into real cards. I am not a fan of anticipate in general (remand, condescend, crack map, and repeal should be your turn 2 plays) but running anticipate #1 before thirst #4 is just extra greasy
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Completely agree on Anticipate, Thirst is plain better - especially with 15 artifacts.
I used to board 2 Summary Dismissal primarily against Eldrazi Tron‘s on-cast triggers. With that deck close to nowhere in my area now, I‘m not running Dismissal anymore. It works against Cavern of Souls too, btw.
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Modern: Death&Taxes / U Tron / G Tron / Goblins
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
I can certainly understand - thirst is indeed a stronger card. probably as strong as serum visions is versus opt.
my take, however, why I use more anticipate is for the following reasons:
1. Lots of decks in the current meta here play Thalia got and having experienced a lot of instances where I don't have a removal spell, it just flat out wrecks thirst for knowledge bumping it up to 4 mana.
2. Also, our turn 2 plays are very, very weak on the draw. there's often less than 50% chance that you're able to get a good remand target and often condescend gets shut off.
3. Getting to dig 3 cards deep, and tucking 2 away on turn 2 to possibly hit on the 4th card next turn feels so underrated to me. Especially with our deck where we are usually a card away from being able to play a haymaker, or from getting a very good answer to what opponent is doing.
4. In the early parts of the game, there are a lot of times where we hold a 6 or even 7 hand card size. These are instances where I prefer going anticipate instead of thirst because playing thirst on a 7 hand size card simply forces you to pitch away 2 cards instead of the value artifact throw. This isn't always the case I know, but it has happened to me more than enough to be mentioned.
5. Lastly, it's a good turn 4 EOT play against control decks (and especially storm) to keep a condescend for 1 open or a remand when they try to shoot off their gifts ungiven in response. it also allows for a turn 3 dismember and still shoot off anticipate eot. It also allows for a double anticipate EOT turn 4, or Thirst and anticipate EOT turn 5. In short, what I'm really saying is, the difference between 2 cmc and 3 cmc, especially in modern format is not as small as it seems.
So those are my stated reasons but I'm really not debating and I fully understand and would agree that thirst for knowledge is a stronger card. For me, it's more of a preference based from the matchups and experiences that I've racked up. I'm also looking to test out 3 thirsts and 2 anticipate variance which would seem more reasonable. Like all of you, I'm always tinkering about trying out new techs and pieces.
Regarding Summary Dismissal - it's not mostly for storm than it is for Tron Matchups like Ulamog, where it also counters the 2 permanent exile trigger. Same goes for BBE decks.
But in storm matchups, it is actually sneaky good, especially that I've seen many storm players go grapeshot on 10 to 12 storm count, remand their grapeshot and shoot again for the finish - summary dismissal absolutely wrecks this.
What I have found is that I like to play this deck as draw-go as possible, only tapping out for haymakers. This is why I really don't like Karn and talismans, or solemn or treasure mage. I'm iffy on trinket mage and have cut it lately. It gets ballista 90 percent or more anyways.
But yeah I prefer to be presenting counterspells as often as possible.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
You must know when to pump the brakes and play draw go. When to grab a beer and put her in cruise control. And when to have them "smell the glove" and drop that bomb like its hot. That is the jist of how to play this deck in my humble opinion
Of course, some matchups tapping out turn six for wurmcoil is lights out. Others its a death sentence.
The problem is cards like talismans and solemns are only good if you tap out for them on curve. Sure you can see a matchup and decide to not talisman, with plan to pitch for thirst later, the problem I see is there are so few matchups where tapping out turn two in this deck is better than showing remand/condescend. This is compounded by the best turn two talisman lines requiring a turn three tapout (karn, solemn).
More often than not im just trying to weather the storm early on until I can ostone, rift, wurmcoil or ugin. Talisman doesnt do enough to help me not-die by turn four and actually nonbos with ostone.
Other times we're playing a chess match vs control or combo where one flop of a turn is a loss. You cant go talisman solemn vs storm because theyll baral and kil you. You cant vs uw because theyll resolve a jace (and will probably logic knot the solemn to boot).
Anyways I think folks know talisman is a personal choice, it just took me a while to figure out that for me its that I want the deck to be draw-go until I have a window to play a gamebreaker. The only time I want to tapout on my turn early on is if ive got tron and a match where ugin, wurmcoil, ostone etc are going to slam the door shut.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Of course, some matchups tapping out turn six for wurmcoil is lights out. Others its a death sentence.
The problem is cards like talismans and solemns are only good if you tap out for them on curve. Sure you can see a matchup and decide to not talisman, with plan to pitch for thirst later, the problem I see is there are so few matchups where tapping out turn two in this deck is better than showing remand/condescend. This is compounded by the best turn two talisman lines requiring a turn three tapout (karn, solemn).
More often than not im just trying to weather the storm early on until I can ostone, rift, wurmcoil or ugin. Talisman doesnt do enough to help me not-die by turn four and actually nonbos with ostone.
Other times we're playing a chess match vs control or combo where one flop of a turn is a loss. You cant go talisman solemn vs storm because theyll baral and kil you. You cant vs uw because theyll resolve a jace (and will probably logic knot the solemn to boot).
Anyways I think folks know talisman is a personal choice, it just took me a while to figure out that for me its that I want the deck to be draw-go until I have a window to play a gamebreaker. The only time I want to tapout on my turn early on is if ive got tron and a match where ugin, wurmcoil, ostone etc are going to slam the door shut.
I'm in agreement with BadMcFadden, I'd much rather be able to hold up or at least represent a counterspell or two for the first couple turns. Additionally holding up removal also feels a lot better than having talismans and solemn. I've ended up going down to 8 main board counters and 4 main board removal spells with the ability to go higher in the board.
I've found that walking ballista is easily one of if not the best card in our deck. It represents early removal or a soul crushing finisher. I went up to the fourth one two weeks ago and have not looked back.
Ill try to post my current list later but its nothing special; the usual mix of core spells with 2 wurmcoil 1 slaver 1 balista. Only spice is a gearhulk and a commit.
Final comment on talisman ramp - we play 12 specific lands in order to jump ahead by four or more mana for free and cast spells of six or more cmc. Paying two mana and a card to jump ahead by one mana just seems grossly inefficient in comparison.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I rather have a single Engineered Explosives than a single Talisman of Dominance every day of the week, and just play a land a turn and getting tron eventually. EE > Talisman for the same reason Ballista is better than Solemn, we need to be as interactive as possible.
This is a moot comparison, EE and Talisman don't remotely fill the same category, one gets us ahead in mana, the other is sometimes a boardwipe and a blowout. Besides, Talisman helps you cast EE for more than 1. And talisman helps us be interactive giving us enough mana to condescend or cast 2 counters in a turn. IMO EE has a much narrower use.
Another schism of sorts that I see is in the package of finishers. On one hand you have nothing but balistas and wurmcoils, on the other you play fewer copies of those and instead an angel, titan, battlesphere, gearhulk, etc.
For those who have done both is it really preference or is it clear that you should really be doing one approach vs the other? Theres definitely something smooth about an end game of slaver, wurmcoil, balista and no one-ofs that sometimes suck (titan angel). There dont seem to be that many decks an angel beats anymore and few decks really crumble to a titan as three-colour midrange isnt what it used to be (trophy may revive)
I do like one gearhulk for the flash, its a way to pressure eot and if they interact you untap and slam a sorcery speed threat. Its a shame it doesnt work with repeal or condescend but ive always had something to hit with it.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I am on the 3 wurmcoil, 4.ballista, 2 mindslaver. I don't see it as preference anymore, wurmcoil is so good against the current modern meta of fast aggro decks and so is ballista. Like you said, angel and sundering Titan aren't what they used to be. Furthermore we tend to have good matchups against decks that Titan cripples, and wurmcoil is normally good against the same decks that Titan was good against. I've never played gearhulk but I think that is a preference thing. I very much enjoy snap and wish I had money for a second one to try out. Ballista is an outrageous card, Since introducing it to this deck my winrate has gone up noticably. At first I was just playing one like everyone here but kept going up. Playing walking ballista, machine gun your dudes control is satisfying and extremely effective against creature decks. Hell, 6 Mana lightning bolt every turn gets the job done against some decks.
Sisin, I dunno how you can compare EE and talisman like that. EE for zero or one is normally all you need in modern. I've introduced 3 river of tears into my list for the off chance I need EE for two or paying less life for dismember. Paying 3 Mana for dismember happens more than you'd think but is still a rarity. Removal/wipes are important in a control deck and this can be a 3 Mana wrath for us when the rest cost 8. Being able to stave off early aggression is what we need most to get to our late game.
Yeah, four dismember feels amazing and since i'm playing 3 wurmcoils I don't have to really worry about that life. Being able to meaningfully interact with creature on turn 1 on the draw I've found to be extremely effective.
I don't think we have to worry about assassin's trophy. Yeah obviously its good against us but We still normally have decent to good matchups against BGx. If you really want to respect it that much, you can add a spell snare or two to your main deck.
I'm up to 4 ballista, 4 Dismember, and 3 wurmcoil in the main now it feels beautiful. My local meta is mostly creature aggro and midrange now so doing this makes a lot of sense. the dismembers allowed me to steal game one vs hollow one last night. He didn't hollow 4 me on turn 2, like last time him and I played.
Providing a report on the PPTQ event I've played in yesterday. I went 4-2 and finished 10th in a 48 player tournament. I may be could have sneaked into the top 8 had the 8 players on top in the final round not decide to draw each of their matches.
Round 1: Abzan Mid-Range - L - 1-2
This is a match-up that I feel we are favored but somehow I ended up losing.
G1 - Opponent won dice roll and was on the play. Match grinded out a bit but the resilience of his threats and me not drawing into a finisher like Ugin or Mindslaver late into the game hurt me. It's also worth noting that I drew a wurmcoil engine way too late in the game as well.
G2 - Won this match in grindy fashion. I played a copy of Torrential Gearhulk in place of a 2nd copy of Ugin that was borrowed and wasn't returned in time for the deck list submission. Ugin would have ended the match on the spot but Gearhulk was enough in this one since I used it to thirst for knowledge for a wurmcoil engine, flash blocked a 6/7 tarmogoyf and used spatial contortion to finish it off. The wurmcoil closed out the game especially because I had academy ruins in play.
G3 - Lost this game in another grindy match, Gearhulk wasn't enough to win this one but definitely if it were an Ugin, I would have been able to win the game almost on the spot.
Round 2: Blue White Spirits - L - 1-2
G1 - Got beaten down, double drogskol captain came in and I was out of it in 5 turns.
G2 - Assembled tron on turn 3 and dropped a wurmcoil engine. No PTE from opponent and had no answer. Followed up by a Walking Ballista for 4 the next turn and it was game over.
G3 - Wasn't able to play magic much in this match. I got beaten down by a wanderer, a supreme phantom, and a phantasmal image copying phantom.
Round 3: RG Ponza - W - 2-0
G1 - did not get to tron because of land destruction but was able to apply the right amount of control to hit 6 lands and drop a wurmcoil engine. He did not have much of an answer to it and it was followed up by another wurmcoil engine and it was pretty much game over.
G2 - tron was assembled but 2 bloodmoons were in play. Turn 8 my opponent has an inferno titan and my life total was down to 9, I flash blocked with a gearhulk and targeted supreme will to dig which got me an o-stone. Casted it next turn and popped everything up freeing tron and wrecking his titan as well as mana dorks and utopia sprawl. Mindlsaver lock followed the following turn.
Round 4: Green Devotion - W - 2-0
G1 - dismembered opponents first arbor elf. turn 2 he casted a sprawl and then an arbor elf, but dismembered the 2nd elf again. he got stuck with 2 lands and a sprawl, countered a couple of harmonize attempts to draw cards and could not do anything else during the next 3 turns which pretty much sealed his fate.
G2 - Killed dork again first chance I got. spreading seas on his forest with a sprawl dropping the sprawl. then repealing my seas for draw value, then recasting it on his Nykthos - this was so much value and held back opponent hard from going off. a few controlling turns later and an Ugin drop, the game ended.
Round 5: Storm - W - 2-1
G1 - Did not have a fairly good hand against storm. Got popped and comboed on turn 6.
G2 - Turn 3 tron was assembled, where I cast a chalice on 2 which basically beat off the opponent.
G3 - Turn 5 we continously played lands, left mana opened and passed turn. I did not have any counterspell but the opponent did not know about it. I had a Chalice of the void and I decided to just risk it and cast it for 2. If he had a remand then it would have been game the next turn, but he didn't. I cast an anticipate on turn 3 and he tapped for mana but said no it's good (implying that he had a counter spell) but I strongly felt like it was a bluff which made me confident in dropping the chalice and it paid off. Opponent couldn't do much, trying hard to get a repeal or wipe away that he boarded in but I was fairly confident because I had a negate and a summary dismissal on hand, and I flashed in a nimble obstructionist to clock him.
Round 6: Hardened Scales affinity - W - 2-1
G1 - dismember, walking ballista on 1 - kept him from having an active steel overseer in play. turn 6 hard cast wurmcoil engine, and turn 7 assembled tron for a massive ballista. game was over.
G2 - mulligan to 5 and was forced to keep a one lander. did not draw a land the next 2 turns and scooped it up. he had an imposing board that would kill me the following turn anyway.
G3 - Turn 3 Tron. Grinded it out with him and kept myself alive with a walking ballista and a wurmcoil engine. Got a mindslaver in and immediately activated.
Sacrificed opponents hangarback walker to his ravager (he also has a scales in play) then sacrificed all thopters to ravager, sacrificed his welding jar and opal for it as well. then transferred all his counters to his ballista and had it shoot himself. Game over.
To summarize - I really feel like a blue white spirits match up is among the worst possible match ups for us, just as merfolk is although not a lot of players run them anymore, i think they're the new version of that deck. Hope anyone could provide some suggestions on how I can better combat this deck.
The 2nd Ugin was crucial in the Abzan round 1, on game 2 it really would have been game winning to have an Ugin instead of a replacement gearhulk I put in. It also would've meant I wouldn't have been paired down to the blue white spirits deck and could have gotten a much much better start.
I started 0-2 but never lost the desire to win matches. Was able to grind out to 12 points which was pretty sad because the 8th placer had 13 points (got their last point from drawing the 6th round).
This is the decklist I ran yesterday:
4 Walking Ballista
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Torrential Gearhulk
4 Condescend
4 Anticipate
2 Thirst for knowledge
2 Supreme Will
2 Remand
2 Dismember
2 Repeal
1 Spatial Contortion
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Expedition Map
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Mindslaver
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Powerplant
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Academy Ruins
1 Field of Ruin
1 Flooded Strand
2 River of Tears
6 Island
Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Negate
2 Spreading Seas
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Spatial Contortion
1 Aetherize
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nimble Obstructionist
1 Summary Dismissal
1 Field of Ruin
Summary dismissal isn't even uncounterable so they can just remand it straight up too
4 anticipate 2 thirst seems just wrong. For one more mana thirst lets you draw all 3 and pitch your worst 1-2, letting you turn dead cards into real cards. I am not a fan of anticipate in general (remand, condescend, crack map, and repeal should be your turn 2 plays) but running anticipate #1 before thirst #4 is just extra greasy
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I used to board 2 Summary Dismissal primarily against Eldrazi Tron‘s on-cast triggers. With that deck close to nowhere in my area now, I‘m not running Dismissal anymore. It works against Cavern of Souls too, btw.
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
my take, however, why I use more anticipate is for the following reasons:
1. Lots of decks in the current meta here play Thalia got and having experienced a lot of instances where I don't have a removal spell, it just flat out wrecks thirst for knowledge bumping it up to 4 mana.
2. Also, our turn 2 plays are very, very weak on the draw. there's often less than 50% chance that you're able to get a good remand target and often condescend gets shut off.
3. Getting to dig 3 cards deep, and tucking 2 away on turn 2 to possibly hit on the 4th card next turn feels so underrated to me. Especially with our deck where we are usually a card away from being able to play a haymaker, or from getting a very good answer to what opponent is doing.
4. In the early parts of the game, there are a lot of times where we hold a 6 or even 7 hand card size. These are instances where I prefer going anticipate instead of thirst because playing thirst on a 7 hand size card simply forces you to pitch away 2 cards instead of the value artifact throw. This isn't always the case I know, but it has happened to me more than enough to be mentioned.
5. Lastly, it's a good turn 4 EOT play against control decks (and especially storm) to keep a condescend for 1 open or a remand when they try to shoot off their gifts ungiven in response. it also allows for a turn 3 dismember and still shoot off anticipate eot. It also allows for a double anticipate EOT turn 4, or Thirst and anticipate EOT turn 5. In short, what I'm really saying is, the difference between 2 cmc and 3 cmc, especially in modern format is not as small as it seems.
So those are my stated reasons but I'm really not debating and I fully understand and would agree that thirst for knowledge is a stronger card. For me, it's more of a preference based from the matchups and experiences that I've racked up. I'm also looking to test out 3 thirsts and 2 anticipate variance which would seem more reasonable. Like all of you, I'm always tinkering about trying out new techs and pieces.
Regarding Summary Dismissal - it's not mostly for storm than it is for Tron Matchups like Ulamog, where it also counters the 2 permanent exile trigger. Same goes for BBE decks.
But in storm matchups, it is actually sneaky good, especially that I've seen many storm players go grapeshot on 10 to 12 storm count, remand their grapeshot and shoot again for the finish - summary dismissal absolutely wrecks this.
But yeah I prefer to be presenting counterspells as often as possible.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
The problem is cards like talismans and solemns are only good if you tap out for them on curve. Sure you can see a matchup and decide to not talisman, with plan to pitch for thirst later, the problem I see is there are so few matchups where tapping out turn two in this deck is better than showing remand/condescend. This is compounded by the best turn two talisman lines requiring a turn three tapout (karn, solemn).
More often than not im just trying to weather the storm early on until I can ostone, rift, wurmcoil or ugin. Talisman doesnt do enough to help me not-die by turn four and actually nonbos with ostone.
Other times we're playing a chess match vs control or combo where one flop of a turn is a loss. You cant go talisman solemn vs storm because theyll baral and kil you. You cant vs uw because theyll resolve a jace (and will probably logic knot the solemn to boot).
Anyways I think folks know talisman is a personal choice, it just took me a while to figure out that for me its that I want the deck to be draw-go until I have a window to play a gamebreaker. The only time I want to tapout on my turn early on is if ive got tron and a match where ugin, wurmcoil, ostone etc are going to slam the door shut.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I've found that walking ballista is easily one of if not the best card in our deck. It represents early removal or a soul crushing finisher. I went up to the fourth one two weeks ago and have not looked back.
Final comment on talisman ramp - we play 12 specific lands in order to jump ahead by four or more mana for free and cast spells of six or more cmc. Paying two mana and a card to jump ahead by one mana just seems grossly inefficient in comparison.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
360 Pauper Cube The Trinket Box
PDH Decks
Classic Pauper Decks
For those who have done both is it really preference or is it clear that you should really be doing one approach vs the other? Theres definitely something smooth about an end game of slaver, wurmcoil, balista and no one-ofs that sometimes suck (titan angel). There dont seem to be that many decks an angel beats anymore and few decks really crumble to a titan as three-colour midrange isnt what it used to be (trophy may revive)
I do like one gearhulk for the flash, its a way to pressure eot and if they interact you untap and slam a sorcery speed threat. Its a shame it doesnt work with repeal or condescend but ive always had something to hit with it.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Sisin, I dunno how you can compare EE and talisman like that. EE for zero or one is normally all you need in modern. I've introduced 3 river of tears into my list for the off chance I need EE for two or paying less life for dismember. Paying 3 Mana for dismember happens more than you'd think but is still a rarity. Removal/wipes are important in a control deck and this can be a 3 Mana wrath for us when the rest cost 8. Being able to stave off early aggression is what we need most to get to our late game.
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
6 Island
1 Tolaria West
2 Field of Ruin
1 Academy Ruins
3 River Of Tears
Creatures (8)
4 Walking Ballista
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Spells (20)
4 Condescend
3 Repeal
3 Remand
4 Dismember
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Supreme Will
4 Thirst For Knowledge
Artifacts(6)
3 Expedition Map
1 Oblivion Stone
2 Mindslaver
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tectonic Edge
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Negate
4 Spatial Contortion
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Thought-Knot Seer
what do you guys think of bgx deck with assasins trop?
I don't think we have to worry about assassin's trophy. Yeah obviously its good against us but We still normally have decent to good matchups against BGx. If you really want to respect it that much, you can add a spell snare or two to your main deck.