MTG Salvation

So I could be way off target, but I was looking to put together a reasonably budget friendly version of this deck to just test out on the local scene. The format looks kind of slanted to aggro, so I was thinking I would main 3xSpatial Contortion and 3x O-Stone and put the chalice in the board. Maybe it will be kind of coo coo but I'd like to give it a whirl. Also, on the note of coo coo, I was contemplating putting in 1x Memnarch as an alternative win con. Seems like it would be ok in this deck. Has anyone tested that and found it to be factually trash?

I'm curious why people run treasure mage. I cut a gearhulk for it to try it out and have been soundly unimpressed. If I'm swimming in mana I rarely care which finisher I draw, and if I'm choked on mana then I don't really want any 6+ drops added to my hand. The big card I'd most often want to tutor is actually ugin which treasure mage obviously cant do.

By comparison I like the trinket mage as it is good early (get map, chalice, explosives, or a small balista) or late (map for ruins or big ballista)

I'm wondering if maindeck crucible makes any sense - saw it in a shoktroopa list. Feels a bit ho-hum without guaranteed fetchlands in the yard to hit with it, but it insulates you vs FoR and has some synergy with our own FoR/Edge/Ruins, tolaria west transmute, and any lands pitched to thirst for knowledge. When we're up against a deck it doesn't work against we can pitch to thirst too?

I also read Trading Post as an option in the primer - does that ever work or is it too clunky? I never liked solemn simulacrum in the deck nor karn scion - they just don't seem to do what the deck needs. Not sure if trading post could help enough vs burn/aggro before switching to a bad CA engine late game in a pinch?

Quote from bonnbonn83 »

I finished Top 8 at PPTQ (42 players) last Saturday

You're pretty fortunate to draw into top8. Titan is a pretty abyssal matchup for us, we need pretty damn amazing hands to compete against them.

How was Teferi? I personally don't think he would be good for us, but I really like the card so I want to try it out. Was it worth playing?

So i tested this all night online last night. Played G-Tron, Eldrazi, Land D, BR Hallowed, ad nauseam,UG Tempo, Burn, and a rogue battle of wits.

Most of the time it felt like they were getting under me by a turn. Every game I lost I felt I was on the verge of stabilizing and taking control. I'm curious if this is mostly my lack of knowledge of the meta or is fairly typical of this deck.

My biggest problem felt like I have nothing to do turn 1 besides expedition map. No way to slow them down turn 1. So if they're on the play, it felt like I was too far behind the ball once I got some mana online and am trying to play catch up. What I wouldn't give for force spike in this deck

I run 2x spell snare in the board to give another turn 1 play against decks where its valuable. Does a lot of work vs storm/burn and to some extent jund (goyf/bob). Dismember is also a turn 1 play that is occasionally helpful - mainly when you're nuking a dork to slow them down or on the draw hitting their two drop.

After that the idea is to condescend/remand/repeal to slow them down until we turn the corner. If you don't have those cards the decks will certainly pull ahead of you before you can stabilize as you stare down at noninteractive maps/thirsts - but even there you're usually looking to take some damage and dig for tron and ugin/rift/balista/wurmcoil to instantly stabilize.

My experience:

G tron: very hard due to worldbreaker, ulamog, and karn. They get tron faster than we do which turns our condescends into sadness, to say nothing of on cast triggers. I'm not sure this match is winnable without them getting a bad draw and us getting a great one.

Eldrazi: bad match as well, you hope they draw chalices and dismembers and don't draw their cavern too early. You really need your wurmcoil/gearhulk on curve here to have a chance.

Hollow One: haven't played it but seems bad if they open well. As long as we have 2 mana our remand/condescend will stop their enablers and buy us time. Really depends on play v draw and that first turn burning inquiry. A t1 hollow one is very, very bad for us (dismember or cyclonic rift)

Ponza / Land D: If they are on the play and go dork-land D that's rough. As long as we get to 1U so we can remand/condescend/repeal things get a lot better. I have condescend for 1 so many inferno titans! Bloodbraid elf is a bit of a problem since we can't stop both spells generally, but sometimes one of them is a dud like a utopia sprawl or bolt and we just counter the elf.

Ad nauseum: haven't played it, likely depends on their pacts because otherwise our counterspells will keep 3BB spells from resolving pretty handily.

UG tempo: don't even know what this is. I've played vs temur decks with BBE/Jace and they are mostly in our favour as they're just a fair midrange deck that usually has no countermagic and no caverns.

Burn: pre-board almost unwinnable. Post board with contortion, TKS, spell snare and an extra wurmcoil can be reasonable. You need to weather the storm and then chalice on 2 generally speaking.

Quote from BadMcFadden »

I run 2x spell snare in the board to give another turn 1 play against decks where its valuable. Does a lot of work vs storm/burn and to some extent jund (goyf/bob). Dismember is also a turn 1 play that is occasionally helpful - mainly when you're nuking a dork to slow them down or on the draw hitting their two drop.

After that the idea is to condescend/remand/repeal to slow them down until we turn the corner. If you don't have those cards the decks will certainly pull ahead of you before you can stabilize as you stare down at noninteractive maps/thirsts - but even there you're usually looking to take some damage and dig for tron and ugin/rift/balista/wurmcoil to instantly stabilize.

My experience:

G tron: very hard due to worldbreaker, ulamog, and karn. They get tron faster than we do which turns our condescends into sadness, to say nothing of on cast triggers. I'm not sure this match is winnable without them getting a bad draw and us getting a great one.

Eldrazi: bad match as well, you hope they draw chalices and dismembers and don't draw their cavern too early. You really need your wurmcoil/gearhulk on curve here to have a chance.

Hollow One: haven't played it but seems bad if they open well. As long as we have 2 mana our remand/condescend will stop their enablers and buy us time. Really depends on play v draw and that first turn burning inquiry. A t1 hollow one is very, very bad for us (dismember or cyclonic rift)

Ponza / Land D: If they are on the play and go dork-land D that's rough. As long as we get to 1U so we can remand/condescend/repeal things get a lot better. I have condescend for 1 so many inferno titans! Bloodbraid elf is a bit of a problem since we can't stop both spells generally, but sometimes one of them is a dud like a utopia sprawl or bolt and we just counter the elf.

Ad nauseum: haven't played it, likely depends on their pacts because otherwise our counterspells will keep 3BB spells from resolving pretty handily.

UG tempo: don't even know what this is. I've played vs temur decks with BBE/Jace and they are mostly in our favour as they're just a fair midrange deck that usually has no countermagic and no caverns.

Burn: pre-board almost unwinnable. Post board with contortion, TKS, spell snare and an extra wurmcoil can be reasonable. You need to weather the storm and then chalice on 2 generally speaking.

That's all very good on-site, thx. I'm lookong to actually try this deck next week so we'll see what til can getvout of tweaks.

Another thing I'm thinking of is running a second cyclonic rift in the main and maybe 1 in the board. That or aether burst. I ran into a few games last night where I would Have killed for some bounce that wasn't mana dependant, like the eldrazi match or Gtron match

What's a pretty standard deck list for my meta we have storm affinity ur Kiki gds mardu jund

3-1 at LGS - usual list I run - no karn no talismans, 2 chalice main, gearhulk+commit main, TKS in board.

Round 1: 2-0 vs UW spirits
G1: Chalice on 1, wurmcoil engine, gg.
G2: Chalice on 1, wurmcoil engine + platinum angel, gg.

Round 2: 1-2 vs UR Pyro/Thing/Delver
G1: Had t4 tron with ugin in hand but he plays 2 ghost quarters to bust it up. 2x dismember stops titi and I resolve wurmcoil into ugin to win.
G2: Key play I tap out for gearhulk to dismember titi w 2 counters. He has negate, untaps abrades the gearhulk flipping titi. I chump flipped titi once with snap as I dig for an out but can't find a bounce spell to slow it down.
G3: I t3 tron chalice on 2 which cripples him hard but I have no blue source and he gets a loothouse. I play GQ and academy ruins and in desperation with a hand full of all blue spells I GQ my own academy ruins for an island. This is double horrific as he soon ceremonius rejections my wurmcoil as I draw dead, and then kills me with a wandeirng fumarole when I can't draw map or crucible or FoR, and GQ is in the yard from my bull***** lack of blue.

Round 3: 2-1 vs UB Eldrazi Processor
G1: T3 Ashiok hits both wurmcoils after 2 tick ups, he plays one, I try to bounce it he casts delay (da fuq), try again with another bounce spell he delays again, then he ulamog's nullifiers the 2 delayed spells and counters my o stone :S
G2: I peel urzas tower off the top for a late game tron, cast sundering titan knowing he has ulamog's nullifier in hand and a cavern, he goes for it - I nimble obstructionist the cast trigger Titan resolves kaboom.
G3: I have a solid draw and play tight. He breaks tron with GQ, i get it back and wurmcoil with counter backup, then mindslaver with condescend on his ceremonius rejection take his turn and wreck him,

Round 4: 2-1 vs burn
G1: I lose roll but have gemstone cavern, two tron pieces, trinket mage, wurmcoil and repeal. But don't have enough time due to a t1 guide t2 eidolon start. T2 I bounce guide, T3 I condescend something, T4 I trinket mage map (Taking 4 from eidolon) and he has searing blaze and land for the mage gg (was too slow anyways here to get the wurmcoil in time).
G2: He goes t1 bolt t2 eidolon as I go t3 natural tron thought knot seer, t4 balista for 4. Spell burst in hand to boot. Stomped.
G3: He keeps a hand of 3x revelry mountain guide helix and peels lands off the top like a boss. I have a good hand tho with interaction, gearhulk, and wurmcoil. i almost punt when I remand an EoT revelry on the wumrcoil instead of condescending it. He untaps revelries and then helixes the lifelink token while im tapped out. I'm at 8 when I get tron and slam chalice on 2. He exquisite firecrafts me to 4, then rift bolts me to 1 but dies to token+hulk+wurmcoil

The thing I'm finding hardest is when to bring in TKS vs red decks. I've had bad times where they get stranded under a blood moon and times where I wish I had more threats for when they drop removal.

I caught a few of your matches on stream there. Was not really impressed with the karns as the tokens are pretty weak and the card draw is pretty slow. I don't think the deck really needs a grindy sorcery speed draw engine and would be using that slot to increase win % vs fast decks - whether combo or aggro. Karn only seems good vs already good matchups (other midrange/grindy decks) and hes not even great there since hes so bad at protecting himself from so much as a single goyf.

Talismans also non-bo with o stone which came up once when you had both out and then had to sweep them away due to pressure.

The neatest trick I saw you pull off was the turn 1 chalice on 0 with 2 repeals in hand, thus hiding the chalice from t1 discard until you could bounce and replay, or to just flat out cantrip regardless. That was pretty cute.

so im jumping right into modern with a 1K tournament tomorrow. Here is the list i am bringing, id love some input before the event. Ive made some changes based on some things ive experienced while testing online.



I put the spell pierce in main cause i felt like fast decks were getting a turn ahead of me too consistently. The supreme will i just like in the deck and felt like it was a pretty easy trade for the talismans and the solemn, which i felt was clunky. tested this last night locally and it seemed to do ok.

Biggest issue see is three pierce main is a tonne when it's going to become dead pretty fast even when it's not just dead in the first place. Zero dismember seems odd too. These could be meta calls I suppose.

No ugin seems glaring. He is often the best card in the deck.

2 crucible is also very odd since they are useless in multiples and never really necessary.

The reason for the extra crucible in the board is Crucible/TecEdge has proven to be really an amazing way to keep Gtron down. If you keep them off Tron, they have a very hard time bouncing back. So the 1 in the board is just about increasing % chance of getting it online, and the meta is rich with tron.

The spell pierce is going to be my experiment. The biggest issue I have with this deck is it feels like its a turn behind too often, the spell pierce I'm hoping changes that dynamic. Well see if it works.

As far as Ugin, I just don't have 1 and didn't want to invest any more cash in a deck I'm not sure about lol.

I have some bad news if you think tec edge will keep anyone off Tron. ghost quarter might but not very well either. I don't know how to make gx Tron winnable but I don't think two crucibles and a tec edge is it. You're likely just wasting an SB slot

Not my experience. They Tron way faster and better than us, quickly outmana condescend, and Karn deals with everything besides a ballista loop w ruins.

I can see how map field of ruins surgical could get there but without the surgical it's a waste of time, and it won't even work at all if they have a relic out and are sharp. I do believe they'd bring relics in too.

So it's a plan but a favourable match? You have 2 or 3 ld effects and 2 or 3 surgical and you need one of each pretty early before they just ulamog or world breaker cast trigger you

You attempt your surgical, they tap relic and exile the target so it fizzles. It's a one mana spell that you're what - remanding or condescending somehow? While also tutoring a ld land and keeping them off t3/4 Tron while digging for a surgical?

Sure, you'll repeal it. Now you need an ld land, a surgical, and a repeal and early enough that they can't just Tron up and Karn you.

They can Karn or ulamog our wurmcoil. We can... condescend or Repeal theirs.

I just don't see any way that you could see blue Tron as advantaged in this matchup. I find it extremely hard as they Tron better and faster than us, have Karn to stop anything we resolve, have cast triggers to blow through counterspells, have wurmcoil we struggle to stop once resolved, and we have... A thirteen mana mindslaver lock and a two card combo of two copies each to disable their big mana engine; that they can beat with a relic.

The single relic matters because it trumps our best plan (ld plus surgical) at zero opportunity cost. Crucible plus ld is also good, but let's not kid ourselves they are bringing in nature's claims.

They have four Karns some number of o stones, and a couple ulamogs and probably four claims to beat 2 wurmcoil, an angel, maybe a battlesphere, and 1 or 2 mindslaver. Our four condescend go completely anemic if they have Tron and we don't, which they are very likely to get to first between map stirring scrying and eggs to cycle.

The counterargument "it's a good match because I win it a lot" doesn't jive with how the cards line up. I'm not saying it's unwinnable, but it's probably 60/40 in their favour or more. I cannot see any way a condescend deck with a few threats is advantages vs a big mana deck with a dozen threats several of which have cast triggers. Locking them out of Tron seems best but this is not slaughter games on ad nauseum. It's a two card combo they can break up for one mana.

I'll leave it at that since I doubt we're going to agree unless I start winning these games a lot more often

Hi all! just looking to get your input on the following cards and their viability / reasons for not making the cut for this deck.

1. serum visions - since the deck is fairly lacking in turn 1 plays, wouldn't this card make for a strong play in order to set up our next turns?

2. fetch land/s - based from my brief experience with the deck (playing 24 and 23 lands) it seems that at times we are looking to play more lands to get the 8 or 9 blue sources from the deck, and then at times we just tend to flood out too much. wouldn't playing fetch lands allow us to put in a higher land count (24 or 25) and then be able to thin out lands in the deck to smooth out the next draws a bit?

3. meloku, the clouded mirror - seems like a very decent stabilizer, and once in play, he can essentially protect your important lands by returning them to hand.

1 - we often only have one blue source early and need to hold it up for counters, repeal, or thirst. Tapping your blue to serum outside turn one will conflict with the draw-go strategy generally used early on. It also weakens chalice on one.

2 it is not worth life loss to thin the deck. Also makes you worse vs blood moon, path, and field of ruin. In uw gifts Tron fetches are good and help maindeckable crucible. Mono deck with fetches is a no without some very specific synergy likedelve or delirium.

3 no chance. We do not want to bounce lands to our hand, we want big mana to cast and defend bombs. And a 2/4 flyer for five... We can do a lot better. You see oboro because it's no opportunity cost and has minor tricks to give an extra blue or change river of tears to black, we would not play a five drop for this sort of trick.

thank you. and lastly, just a quick scenario question: if you try to repeal bounce let's say, a sakura tribe elder, and they sac in response, does that mean repeal fizzles, and you don't draw a card?

I think I played against the vengevine bridge from below deck four times today online. If there was a time to consider leyline over surgical this might be it.