1. I see further back a lot of people are beating ponza 2-0 multiple times. What is the secret or what cards should I be focusing on having in my opener?
2. How do you all feel about Karn, Scion of Urza? He definitly felt okay but i think it might be better to just have another piece of interation or something more proactive.
1) Having more counterspells and keeping lands with lot of lands OR early interaction (Dismember for Elf, to make an example). Ballista is good on the play for the same reason. Oblivion Stone is very good at dealing with a Moon. DON’T counter Blood Moon, focus on threats and land destruction. Wurmcoil Engine is how we win. It’s a tough mu anyway, because they will focus on our blue sources (if they are good players).
2) Extremely bad card in our archetype, I already talked about him some pages ago.
Yet a 5-0 x2 has been posted running Karn SOU in the list... so, you sure about that summary dismissal of the card?
Man you guys just love jumping on Bloody. I am and probably always will be a "Shok-type" player for most events, but if you've ever tried their list it really is more consistent at pooping on aggro and their card evaluation seems well thought out. Pie is probably my favorite card evaluator in U Tron and he wasn't high on Karn either, you gonna go after him too?
Keep in mind Shok/joker/Agnara and the like are just really good players, period. Shok/Joker just posted great records with 1x Aetherspouts (now missing in the list but has personally won me more games than any other singleton in the last couple weeks) and I remember Agnara 5-0ing with 1x Jace. Sometimes these 1-of card choices pan out over time or are great in specific metas but they're often not going to make-or-break your deck, especially when not fetchable (praise be to Ugin, the GOAT). The real "innovation" (not really new, because tons of lists used to run 3+) are the 3 Talismans to power things out. On paper it feels too slow, but lately I have been able to take some beats on T2/T3 and then make a huge game-swinging T4/T5. Stony Silence is nowhere to be seen in my shop so I'm on that plan until it comes back in real numbers.
I went ahead and grabbed 1x baby Karn just in case because I like that it can grind out games when people go after my tron pieces. I have seen him take over games FAST if left unchecked. Guy at my shop has whooped me on Affinity two weeks in a row solely because of Karn and the new angle of attack he gives them. Maybe he turns out to work for us too and gives us a reason to plop down some maps instead of pitching to Thirst.
Hi, hope it's okay to ask here. I've been playing Magic on and off for 14 years, but I'm relatively new to modern. Been looking for a "pet" deck to invest in, that won't bore me in a couple of months. I watched a bunch of videos and so far U-Tron looks very appealing. It invokes fond memories of the first times I played a counterspell in my childhood and knew I'm a blue mage.
Was thinking of starting with a $200-300 budget-ish version without the most expensive cards (Karn, Ugin, Chalice), and then slowly upgrading/proxying stuff from that point. I know it's a complicated fringe deck with some very passionate devotees. Wanted to ask how do you think it's positioned right now and will I be able to pilot the deck without years of experience with tron/modern? I'm only interested in FNM and local play, no big tournaments.
Finding an offbeat deck that's "mine" is super important to me, but maybe I should delve into modern with some simpler stuff? I'm not sure...
(looking into DnT and skred, but that's offtop)
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Standard: UR Like grixis midrange but worse
Modern: UR Bloo
The deck definitely requires some reps and knowledge of the format but I started with a budget version and had some success. The chalices and Karn are not needed. Ugin is a card I would definitely try to squeeze into the budget. I play one of him and it's just fine. There are a ton of great players and influencers in this forum, shoktroopa, pie, and bloody. I feel like the deck is pretty decently positioned. The only tier 1 matchup I truly fear is humans. But like most control lists you are rewarded for playing well and punished hard for playing poorly. Having the Tron part of the deck helps a lot too.
Man you guys just love jumping on Bloody. I am and probably always will be a "Shok-type" player for most events, but if you've ever tried their list it really is more consistent at pooping on aggro and their card evaluation seems well thought out. Pie is probably my favorite card evaluator in U Tron and he wasn't high on Karn either, you gonna go after him too?
If they summarily dismiss a card without testing or acknowledging results, yes. My issue was that there is a continuous use of "This will not work." "This is a bad card." "This is ..." Without rationale for it, primarily play testing.
If you watch Shock or, especially, Pie, something you note in your own post, they may indicate a card is something they wouldn't try or don't think will be good and provide their experience in trying it or analysis of the card based on their experience/playstyle as to why they aren't going to include it, rather than just saying "No, this will not work./end" (I don't know that I've seen an instance of them not doing this, but I haven't watched every second of footage).
Over and over, I see people provide suggestions to improve the deck, with a very vocal minority consistently shooting nearly every idea down without explanation of why or proof that it doesn't work through play testing. Then, as we have here, 2 people post 5-0 results with a new card or cards included in the deck and we still get "Nope, doesn't work. It's a bad addition"
That may be correct. It may be something that doesn't add value to the deck. As you point out, Karn, specifically for this conversation, is a one of in the decklist.
However, UTron runs a lot of 1 ofs in the main board for game 1, especially, and has a lot of 1 ofs in general:
1. Platinum Angel
2. Snapcaster Mage
3. Sundering Titan
4. Solemn Simulacrum
5. Trinket Mage
6. Treasure Mage
7. Walking Ballista
8. Tolaria
9. Chalice
10. River of Tears
11. Oboro
12, Oblivion Stone
13. Engineered Explosives
14. Mindslaver (usually a 1 of in the MB)
15. Wurmcoil (a 1 of in the "traditional" MB)
16. Academy Ruins
17. Ugin
18. Crucible
19. Cyclonic Rift
20. Gifts Ungiven
Depending on decklist, there are more or less, but those are the main ones that we most frequently see. The point being, to say it's a one of and therefore doesn't contribute anything to the deck is ridiculous. For the larger point, if you're going to dismiss new ideas / new cards, at least provide some rationale and playtesting results before making an absolute statement that the card is not worth consideration or inclusion. (The obvious carve out exception are the ridiculous suggestions, like: "Derp, play blood moon in teh side, har har har")
Well another 5-0 Comp league today and my 4th trophy of this season. I really believe in this list. Changes from yesterday -1 titan -1 remand +1 Gearhulk +1 Aetherspouts. I like gearhulk in the list, plays well with the dismembers and aetherspouts.
2-0 Titanshift
Tight games, Karn was able to draw me into more counter magic to close out the game.
2-0 Mono Red Prison
Easy matchup. Pretty much everything they do is bad against us.
2-1 Storm
This shell has been feeling even better than normal against storm.
2-1 Jeskai Control
Really fun games. Game three had teferi, damping sphere and search for azcanta grinding against karn and chalice on 1. All three modes on karn were relevant.
2-0 Bogels
Aetherspouts, gearhulk target aetherspouts.
Karn has been extremely good and was the difference maker in both wins against jeskai control. Aetherspouts was great to have in the list again. Singletons matter in our deck with the number of cards we see.
If they summarily dismiss a card without testing or acknowledging results, yes. My issue was that there is a continuous use of "This will not work." "This is a bad card." "This is ..." Without rationale for it, primarily play testing.
If you watch Shock or, especially, Pie, something you note in your own post, they may indicate a card is something they wouldn't try or don't think will be good and provide their experience in trying it or analysis of the card based on their experience/playstyle as to why they aren't going to include it, rather than just saying "No, this will not work./end" (I don't know that I've seen an instance of them not doing this, but I haven't watched every second of footage).
I wrote it not just one, but twice. It’s fine if you missed it, you don’t have to read my words all the time, but I provided enough reasons why I think the card is no good.
@I don’t play (nor I intend to play) Talismans in the deck - we already discussed a lot about this - and Karn without Talismans isn’t that appealing for obvious reasons.
@I’m already low on artifacts (the main reason to play 3 a Thirst instead of the full set) and if we consider Karn as a CA Spell, then, I do think it’s the worse of all them, because of him being a 4cc sorcery that dies to everything.
@I jam more O-Stone effects than most of you guys, so running several planeswalkers sometimes is a nuisance.
@It improves very few matchups.
I definitely provided enough rationale, given that I always referred to my list and not to the one of someone else.
Problem is, I did read your words. As you note, your rationale was specific to the decklist you run, yet the opinion of whether to run the card in the deck was given as a universal negative for all UTron decklists. So, you need to expand your rationale for all decklists then or confine your negative response to the card to your specific decklist.
@ Jokersrwild - thanks for the continued information about your matchups in leagues. Definitely been high on Aetherspouts and glad it's back in, especially with Gearhulk. It's backbreaking to every single deck I have had trouble with since I started on the deck. I am still skeptical on Karn, but seeing you post specific matchups where he has won you games definitely makes me want to try him out. I am assuming you will continue to keep him at 1x so you don't get clogged up with him (same reasoning for Ugin) but at 4cmc maybe that's not a problem?
@ BloodyRabbit_01 - Dismember is still great removal and I wonder if the B splash for Damnation is still better than R or W. What sweepers did you have in min d for those colors? Something earlier like Pyroclasm? Probably too off-topic for straight U Tron but it's something I always want to just dabble with and I chicken out before starting a league because the manabase looks so bad with 2 colors.
I don‘t want to keep anyone from trying splashes for cheap sweepers. Just bear in mind that sometimes getting to even UU is tough enough. Finding BB for Damnation or WW for Wrath of God probably requires a manabase on a entirely different level, where I wonder if that can be achieved along 12 Tron lands and still be consistent through the land hate. If anyone finds time to give it a try, please prove me wrong but I can‘t see this work.
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Modern: Death&Taxes / U Tron / G Tron / Goblins
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
@ Jokersrwild - thanks for the continued information about your matchups in leagues. Definitely been high on Aetherspouts and glad it's back in, especially with Gearhulk. It's backbreaking to every single deck I have had trouble with since I started on the deck. I am still skeptical on Karn, but seeing you post specific matchups where he has won you games definitely makes me want to try him out. I am assuming you will continue to keep him at 1x so you don't get clogged up with him (same reasoning for Ugin) but at 4cmc maybe that's not a problem?
No problem, I'll keep posting how things are going. I've been trying to play one comp league every day lately so I've been able to do a decent amount of testing. Titan just doesn't do enough about against the most common decks right now and with the talismans gearhulk is pretty easy to cast. Karn is staying as a one of for now, I can see the value in a second copy, but slots are real tight.
You can always play more Oblivion Stones for sweepers. No need to splash to another color. Of course, you have to ditch talismans to commit to it. (I personally don't run any.) Especially combined with 3-4 removal, 3 repeals, 3-4 remands, it's not hard resolve and activate an oblivion stone even if you don't have tron.
I don't really find several OStones to be too clunky. If I do have tron, Ostone is an easy play, and likely one of my best options. But if I don't have tron, it's not like I'd have a lot of better options anyway if I really need to influence the board.
I do understand the decklist being discussed. Sweepers were being discussed, and I'm merely pointing out that more Oblivion Stones is a way to add more sweepers without splashing. Of course it requires retooling the deck in another way (no/less talismans), but I think it's worth considering for anybody wanting more sweeper effects.
Also, as for dismembers and wanting more black... I kind of want to try running 4x River of Tears alongside 1x Oboro (to retrigger them) while running a full set of dismembers. At this point, you start to actually become relatively weak to blood moon though.
Newish to this deck, at what times do you guys take out your mindslavers and platinum angels? I find myself siding out angel in most matchups which I think is a mistake, and Im a bit lost on when keeping mindslaver (2 in my main) in is a good idea or not
So, I had an interesting idea the other day which might be worth pursuing. With the printing of Cabal Stronghold, one could completely rework this deck's manabase into just a playset of those and a bunch of basic islands. In conjunction with cards like Mind Bend, you can easily make just as much mana in the long game. While this would be less explosive than the Urzatron, such a change would introduce two massive upsides along with all the islands: Cryptic Command and Vedalken Shackles, both of which are insane cards for a control deck. Thoughts?
Cabal Stronghold is awful You need 5 basic swamps + cabal stronghold before you even make 1 extra mana relative to basic lands. And you need to waste a card "color" shifting it to islands instead of swamps to play this deck. Seems like if you want to play those "insane" control cards you should just play some other flavor of blue control.
Platinum Angel is good against Burn and decks without a lot of artifact or creature removal, like Lantern Control or Bogles. Post-board, it always gets worse, as decks bring in artifact hate. It's a pretty common board-out for me against non-prison decks.
Cut a Mindslaver in aggro matchups. Getting to 10 mana is hard when you're dead by turn 4 or 5, and a Wurmcoil or O-stone is almost always better. You almost always want minimum 1 for lock potential though.
Oh okay, yeah I wasn't sure if I was missing anything with angel but I think we're on the same page. Post board there is usually artifact removal, or at least a removal spell that can take out angel, so I rarely found it worth it to keep it in post board.
I knew to cut out slave, but I usually cut both, I'll try keeping one in
There are some post-board matches where you might cut both so look at it on a case by case basis. Sometimes you have to go down wincons to board in all your removal just to stay alive and Platinum won't cut it in games 2-3 when they board in artifact removal (Destructive Revelry, Kolaghan's). I wouldn't go insane and drop every Wurmcoil/Mindslaver/Angel, but going down 1x Slaver 1x Angel isn't a bad idea. You should still have enough Gearhulks, Sundering Titan, boarded in Wurmcoils, Ugin etc. to finish the job.
List looks pretty good Bloody Rabbit, more along the lines of what I like to run too. I notice you don't have mindslaver at all either, which I'm a fan of. Although you mention control is problematic, so perhaps running it in the sideboard is still worthwhile. I've been thinking of doing the same, or some other anti-control card that there are many options for. Most control is running a lot of field of ruin which is honestly the thing which has made control matchups the most difficult. We're forced to play fairly too much.
This is probably too deep, but I was wondering if it would be possible to support Commandeer in the sideboard. The cost is enormous, but I can't help of think of the upside in several matchups. Stealing walkers would be backbreaking.
Negate looks like a good addition to the maindeck. It's a card I bring in quite frequently actually, so finding maindeck space for it is pretty reasonable. Swapping out a remand for it is an easy switch, although I really do love my remands...
I think 4 dismembers is a bit extreme, though I understand why you run it.
Do you like Snapcaster Mage all that much? I haven't run him in my versions yet. He just feels a bit slow (both in total mana and getting double U).
I don't like only 3 expedition maps. Getting tron online early can just give us free wins, and I think it's important to maximize that. Multiples aren't really an issue because you always want more lands with this deck. I also run a single Tolaria West so that I can turn maps into a threat as well (Walking Balista).
I think 4 supreme will/3 thirst for knowledge is a little high. I know these are good cards, but drawing several of them early can be problematic, especially on the draw.
Ugin is a great card. Hard to interact with, gives outs against a wide spectrum of decks, and also closes out the game. I've been very happy with 2 of them as well.
How necessary do you find the surgical extractions in the sideboard?
Spell Snare is a great sideboard card. In fact, I've actually been considering 1-2 in the maindeck. Almost everything has 2 cmc we care about. Perhaps it's too unreliable though.
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Yet a 5-0 x2 has been posted running Karn SOU in the list... so, you sure about that summary dismissal of the card?
Keep in mind Shok/joker/Agnara and the like are just really good players, period. Shok/Joker just posted great records with 1x Aetherspouts (now missing in the list but has personally won me more games than any other singleton in the last couple weeks) and I remember Agnara 5-0ing with 1x Jace. Sometimes these 1-of card choices pan out over time or are great in specific metas but they're often not going to make-or-break your deck, especially when not fetchable (praise be to Ugin, the GOAT). The real "innovation" (not really new, because tons of lists used to run 3+) are the 3 Talismans to power things out. On paper it feels too slow, but lately I have been able to take some beats on T2/T3 and then make a huge game-swinging T4/T5. Stony Silence is nowhere to be seen in my shop so I'm on that plan until it comes back in real numbers.
I went ahead and grabbed 1x baby Karn just in case because I like that it can grind out games when people go after my tron pieces. I have seen him take over games FAST if left unchecked. Guy at my shop has whooped me on Affinity two weeks in a row solely because of Karn and the new angle of attack he gives them. Maybe he turns out to work for us too and gives us a reason to plop down some maps instead of pitching to Thirst.
Was thinking of starting with a $200-300 budget-ish version without the most expensive cards (Karn, Ugin, Chalice), and then slowly upgrading/proxying stuff from that point. I know it's a complicated fringe deck with some very passionate devotees. Wanted to ask how do you think it's positioned right now and will I be able to pilot the deck without years of experience with tron/modern? I'm only interested in FNM and local play, no big tournaments.
Finding an offbeat deck that's "mine" is super important to me, but maybe I should delve into modern with some simpler stuff? I'm not sure...
(looking into DnT and skred, but that's offtop)
Modern: UR Bloo
If they summarily dismiss a card without testing or acknowledging results, yes. My issue was that there is a continuous use of "This will not work." "This is a bad card." "This is ..." Without rationale for it, primarily play testing.
If you watch Shock or, especially, Pie, something you note in your own post, they may indicate a card is something they wouldn't try or don't think will be good and provide their experience in trying it or analysis of the card based on their experience/playstyle as to why they aren't going to include it, rather than just saying "No, this will not work./end" (I don't know that I've seen an instance of them not doing this, but I haven't watched every second of footage).
Over and over, I see people provide suggestions to improve the deck, with a very vocal minority consistently shooting nearly every idea down without explanation of why or proof that it doesn't work through play testing. Then, as we have here, 2 people post 5-0 results with a new card or cards included in the deck and we still get "Nope, doesn't work. It's a bad addition"
That may be correct. It may be something that doesn't add value to the deck. As you point out, Karn, specifically for this conversation, is a one of in the decklist.
However, UTron runs a lot of 1 ofs in the main board for game 1, especially, and has a lot of 1 ofs in general:
1. Platinum Angel
2. Snapcaster Mage
3. Sundering Titan
4. Solemn Simulacrum
5. Trinket Mage
6. Treasure Mage
7. Walking Ballista
8. Tolaria
9. Chalice
10. River of Tears
11. Oboro
12, Oblivion Stone
13. Engineered Explosives
14. Mindslaver (usually a 1 of in the MB)
15. Wurmcoil (a 1 of in the "traditional" MB)
16. Academy Ruins
17. Ugin
18. Crucible
19. Cyclonic Rift
20. Gifts Ungiven
Depending on decklist, there are more or less, but those are the main ones that we most frequently see. The point being, to say it's a one of and therefore doesn't contribute anything to the deck is ridiculous. For the larger point, if you're going to dismiss new ideas / new cards, at least provide some rationale and playtesting results before making an absolute statement that the card is not worth consideration or inclusion. (The obvious carve out exception are the ridiculous suggestions, like: "Derp, play blood moon in teh side, har har har")
1 Walking Ballista
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Treasure Mage
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
1 Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalkers (2)
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Spells (17)
4 Condescend
3 Repeal
1 Cyclonic Rift
2 Remand
2 Dismember
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Aetherspouts
1 Chalice of the Void
4 Expedition Map
2 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Oblivion Stone
2 Mindslaver
Lands (23)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Gemstone Caverns
5 Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 River of Tears
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Tolaria West
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Field of Ruin
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Spatial Contortion
2 Spreading Seas
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Dismember
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2-0 Titanshift
Tight games, Karn was able to draw me into more counter magic to close out the game.
2-0 Mono Red Prison
Easy matchup. Pretty much everything they do is bad against us.
2-1 Storm
This shell has been feeling even better than normal against storm.
2-1 Jeskai Control
Really fun games. Game three had teferi, damping sphere and search for azcanta grinding against karn and chalice on 1. All three modes on karn were relevant.
2-0 Bogels
Aetherspouts, gearhulk target aetherspouts.
Karn has been extremely good and was the difference maker in both wins against jeskai control. Aetherspouts was great to have in the list again. Singletons matter in our deck with the number of cards we see.
Problem is, I did read your words. As you note, your rationale was specific to the decklist you run, yet the opinion of whether to run the card in the deck was given as a universal negative for all UTron decklists. So, you need to expand your rationale for all decklists then or confine your negative response to the card to your specific decklist.
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
No problem, I'll keep posting how things are going. I've been trying to play one comp league every day lately so I've been able to do a decent amount of testing. Titan just doesn't do enough about against the most common decks right now and with the talismans gearhulk is pretty easy to cast. Karn is staying as a one of for now, I can see the value in a second copy, but slots are real tight.
I don't really find several OStones to be too clunky. If I do have tron, Ostone is an easy play, and likely one of my best options. But if I don't have tron, it's not like I'd have a lot of better options anyway if I really need to influence the board.
Also, as for dismembers and wanting more black... I kind of want to try running 4x River of Tears alongside 1x Oboro (to retrigger them) while running a full set of dismembers. At this point, you start to actually become relatively weak to blood moon though.
Platinum Angel is good against Burn and decks without a lot of artifact or creature removal, like Lantern Control or Bogles. Post-board, it always gets worse, as decks bring in artifact hate. It's a pretty common board-out for me against non-prison decks.
Cut a Mindslaver in aggro matchups. Getting to 10 mana is hard when you're dead by turn 4 or 5, and a Wurmcoil or O-stone is almost always better. You almost always want minimum 1 for lock potential though.
I knew to cut out slave, but I usually cut both, I'll try keeping one in
This is probably too deep, but I was wondering if it would be possible to support Commandeer in the sideboard. The cost is enormous, but I can't help of think of the upside in several matchups. Stealing walkers would be backbreaking.
Negate looks like a good addition to the maindeck. It's a card I bring in quite frequently actually, so finding maindeck space for it is pretty reasonable. Swapping out a remand for it is an easy switch, although I really do love my remands...
I think 4 dismembers is a bit extreme, though I understand why you run it.
Do you like Snapcaster Mage all that much? I haven't run him in my versions yet. He just feels a bit slow (both in total mana and getting double U).
I don't like only 3 expedition maps. Getting tron online early can just give us free wins, and I think it's important to maximize that. Multiples aren't really an issue because you always want more lands with this deck. I also run a single Tolaria West so that I can turn maps into a threat as well (Walking Balista).
I think 4 supreme will/3 thirst for knowledge is a little high. I know these are good cards, but drawing several of them early can be problematic, especially on the draw.
Ugin is a great card. Hard to interact with, gives outs against a wide spectrum of decks, and also closes out the game. I've been very happy with 2 of them as well.
How necessary do you find the surgical extractions in the sideboard?
Spell Snare is a great sideboard card. In fact, I've actually been considering 1-2 in the maindeck. Almost everything has 2 cmc we care about. Perhaps it's too unreliable though.