I won't be testing a SFM build of Gifts with them at 90+ each. For now I'll keep testing my current build, though with the grave decks slowing down, I might move to Kaya's guile as a 2 or 3 of in the board and drop the nihil spellbombs as guile is far more versatile though it is a slower gravehate spell. I keep finding myself thinking about a 4c version that looks to lock with loam/crime with a T3feri on the field. The power of them never getting another card sounds amazing but I worry the setup for such a lock is not practical (empty or near parity board state, with a t3feri to gifts for loam/crime package).
So I haven't had much in the way of success (<50% win rate) with all the meta changes from MH1 and the un/bannings. I still put up a fight but unfamiliarity with the lines of new decks and new tech shaking up old decks is forcing me to revise my build even again. I'm taking inspiration from the esper list that 5-0 during hogaak winter and testing out chart a course, but with SFM being the new hot tech- I'm tossing in 2 sultai charms as it can break equipment, kill the germ or mystic and filter bad draws in place of the Jace VP in that list as I still want to blank removal from the opponent as much as possible. I won't get to test the list until next FNM and Saturday for a charity tournament though. So I'm open to feedback and possible revisions.
I haven't tested yet in the new meta landscape, so I can't tell whether we are in a good spot right now or not, but our deck encourages good knowledge of the meta and the main lines of our opponents' decks, so I suppose the win rate will go up again once we have an idea what to expect, given the first few land drops and spells from the other side of the table.
Regarding your list, I have a few comments as always: Now that Phoenix isn't prevalent anymore and Delver shouldn't be an issue either, I think it is time to replace the Stirring Wildwood and play either Colonnade or Tar Pit. Also, I wouldn't go below 9 fetchlands, but I guess I can't argue if it works fine for you. My experience so far was that CMC3 removal spells are immensely clunky, which is why I would advocate for Fatal Push, triggering it is rarely an issue. Have you thought a bout 1 1-of Engineered Explosives? How was the split between IoK and Brutality so far? Taking higher-CMC cards such as JtMS or planeswalkers against UWx always feels great, I wouldn't want to miss Thoughtseize. Not a fan of Chart a Course (and Radical Idea after I tested it) to be honest, it just doesn't do enough and consumes an entire turn in the early game. Especially not as more grindy, slow-pace games seem to approach, I can't value the full set of Liliana of the Veil high enough.
Given the opportunity, let me share my current build as well, although not much has changed in the Rock version.
I have adopted a single Thrun in the sideboard, we'll see if the GG is an issue, Ensnaring Bridge has been moved in favour of a Kaya's Guile although it has been quite good several times already. An active Liliana together with a Bridge is quite good against most non-GB creature-based decks in the format, occasionally even temporarily against UWx and their Colonnades, but that's not the main point. Otherwise pretty much standard, Kalitas has performed great so far, I would fit the 3rd Lingering Souls if I could though, closing out games fast enough when turning the corner is key in many games, we can't establish the same level of lategame board control as UWx.
You are right our list requires a strong knowledge of the meta and common decks so with so many change ups to the meta and decklists from the influx of new cards is a real challenge.
Looking at your list- the only thing that I might change without testing is a simple upgrade from Tendrils to Cry of the Carnarium. Its same effect and cmc but you give up devoid to get all creatures put in the grave that turn so they can't sac in response to keep it from getting exiled. I also think you can go down a surgical in the board with Kaya's guile to help control the grave and without looting they can't fill it before t3. If you did free up a sb slot I would recomend a copy of unmoored ego- being able to hit tron lands or lotus field(twiddle storm) on the play is nice.
In general I'm not looking to change up my manabase barring a major change to the 75 and color weights, its worked pretty well. Wildwood was picked as for its ability to block flyers. If I can pick up a colonade in trade I'll probably pick it up as a way to close out games.
In general looking at my deck from the the london version, I feel there are a few issues to "solve".
1. I aim to 1 for 1 outvalue my opponent's but I have no card draw and play 3 collective brutalities meaning I general go topdeck first.
2. I can reliably get to late game but can't reliably pressure or find Gifts to capitalize on the late game.
3. Like most Gift decks I suffer from the bad draws issue, further complicating the 1 for 1 plan.
4. My deck's sb is fairly heavy against combo decks but I don't see an disproportionate amount in my meta... not sure why I weighted the board that way.
I did some testing yesterday at the lgs to see if there is some missed/new tech that can help with these problems The testing was against gb elves (you take what you can get in pickup games/testing lol.) we Played for about 4 hours which with GB elves means there was quite a few games. So I was able to see the cards in various numbers and situations.
Chart a course - strong controlled filtering was really nice but sorcery speed meant I was constantly holding it back to hold up removal or going shields down to filter my hand. It might get better in slower[ matches or versions with T3feri where you can make it instant.
Chemister's insight - can be pitched and used as a discard outlet. The blind discard isn't great but would be at home in a more draw go shell. I'll be running it as a one of in place of my champion of wits as it generates card advantage and is instant.
Sultai charm - never dead and the instant speed is amazing, but the mana is HARD to cast on T3, its not impossible to do it naturally but its another case where Caryatid is key for casting it in my build.
Nissa, voice of zendikar - mana is really hard to cast with 1gg, and isn't great as a draw without already having a stable board as the plant tokens do very little on their own.
Drops-
D Sphere- sorcery speed and can't be recurred without noxious. Was better when my build had a suntitan. but with exile not being as key anymore it going to the maybeboard.
search #2- its not great in multiples and with more ways to filter my hand I'm less reliant on dodging bad draws.
Champion of Wits- I keep going back in forth with him. But he's being dropped as I don't run titan and his filtering is sorcery speed without generating real card advantage.
Extirpate #2- don't need 2 extirpates without an influx of combo or grave decks.
Loam/Crime- too slow for most matches and Thrunn is stronger against control decks.
Nihil Spellbomb- grave decks should die down some. And w/o looting they'll be slower/less consistent making kaya's guile stronger.
Baneslayer- Rarely used if I was up against aggro the troll worship lock was my stronger line outside of locking from gifts. Though if BTL performs it might make it back to the 75.
Moves-
Day/Verdict- testing the idea of moving the wraths to sb and relying on snap/noxious to have access to the singleton wrath. Time will tell if the lack of t3/4 wrath will be an issue.
Noxious- moving to main for its ability to HVT package to get thigs like Wrath, Bog or removal as needed.
Adds
Thragtusk - board/life stabilizer.
Chemister's Insight- replacing champion as it can be "flashbacked" or hard casted at instant speed generating card adavantage.
BTL- Second copy of just about any card in my main deck though I'm not a BTL deck but getting wraths/gifts/unburial/thragtusk(5th color with caryatid) etc is too strong to ignore for testing.
sultia charm- looting effect with straight upside in utility.
Gideon, ally - past testing has shown he's powerful. Making tokens is nice can also anthem our board which with a set of souls out can be lethal. A t3 gideon swings for 7 on t4 which is great for pressuring opponents.
Good catch, Cry of the Carnarium is probably better in most situations and I even have some lying around. I might swap the Crucible and something else for an Unmoored Ego or two, both because I need it in another deck and Loam somewhat does the job, although not skipping the draw step with Crucible is a nice upside. With Birds of Paradise in the deck Ego would be castable on the draw against Tron, too.
I recall your statement about Wildwood blocking Phoenix and dodging Bolt, yes. Now that this isn't an issue any longer or at least not with the speed the deck once had, I think Colonnade is the better catch in your deck. Under an Elesh Norn it also hits for 6 in the air, which helps closing out games before the opponent can find meaningful interaction, in the end she dies to Path, Terminate, Dreadbore and locking out one colour often doesn't do it either.
Reading through your bullet points above I was wondering about one statement: You say that you would like to 1-for-1 your opponent into oblivion and take the lead with better topdecks, which is generally true but in strong contrast to playing the full set of Caryatids. I have gone down to zero copies because of precisely this issue, they don't pressure the opponent even after an Elesh Norn hits the field and feel so bad when drawn after turn 2-3. And frankly, the mana base is fine in 4 colours without them and 25 lands, given you run 9-10 on-colour fetchlands and only 1-2 utility lands. That said, while testing I did not have too many issues with Sultai Charm on turn 3 even without dorks, BUG are my main colours, but I found it to be a little clunky and went back to Decay/Trophy, respectively.
I can see Chemister's Insight being good, but it clogs up your hand in the 4-drop slot which is a notorious problem for this kind of deck (alongside with UWx, but for another reason). The same thing is true for BtL, it looks good on paper but is pure clunk when you have it in your starting hand which again, is already an issue at times with our two big creatures. Without much selection/filtering I would go for the full 4x Gifts Ungiven, I always want to draw one. At this point I'd like to ask again, why don't you run any LotV? Caryatids could even protect her if you are not willing to go down on those, she steamrolls the UWx matchup when leaved unchecked and helps grind out most opponents while you get rid off either their creatures of net value of discarding Souls or fatties. As mentioned many times by many people, she's the glue that kept the deck together for all these years. I like the inclusion of Gideon, AoZ in your list though, I see that he's much better on T3 than T4 which justifies playing dorks, 2WW doesn't seem like a challenge for your list, too. What's up with the single sweeper in your list? I recall that you were a strong proponent of playing 3 of those (or 2 with Revival) to guarantee a sweeper on turn 4 with a previously cast Gifts.
A side note on Mardu/Jund and/or Shadow builds, I recently tested against some of those (Pyro) builds and if your meta is heavy on this kind of strategy, try running Sphinx of the Steel Wind in your board as a Gifts/Rites target, it is totally hilarious as it kills Angler, Tasigur and all their dudes and they basically concede if you're not super far behind. They are also light on threats, so focus the removal on the Shadows, they are hit by everything be have from Push, Path, Decay, Trophy, Pulse and Liliana. Apart from that, they can't do much about your plan preboard.
At this point the lack of lotv, second snapcaster and a one of Surgical are purely a $$ choice.
I'm testing snap /nox for access to wrath off gifts. While it's nice to wrath on t3/4 I haven't had a need to wrath on curve as often with iok and it's a poor draw in multiples. So if I can cut back on my 4 drops and reliably get my one ofs off gifts it would be an improvement.
I agree that on paper btl sounds great and it's cheap enough (less than a dollar) that I can easily test it as a one of - it's my 4th gifts, 2 wrath/thragtusk/unburial etc. If it doesn't perform strong enough I have the 4th gifts sitting in my binder.
Alright, you might want to proxy them in order to get an idea of how they play, it's a hell of a lot different with LotV. Snap/Revival with Gifts does however not get you a turn 4/5 sweeper if you don't have at least 6 mana available and are willing to burn your 1-of Snapcaster Mage, I'm not sure if this is what you want to be doing. Same thing with BtL as your 4th Gifts, if you use it as such most of the time it's just better to run the 4th Gifts anyway and skip the hurdle of a 5 mana and 2 colour sorcery, but go ahead with testing and report your finding, maybe in a slower meta this can be re-evaluated accordingly.
I made room for 2x Unmoored Ego, but I fear this still isn't enough for the Tron matchup due to their inevitability and our lack of a proper clock. They will eventually still cast their big stuff and we're done for, Karn and/or Ulamog are a huge beating, they go after our lands usually. This is the most recent version of the board, by the way:
I think with the prevalence of Tron and Burn in the current meta game, we're going to need a couple key components built into our main board. The first is a reasonable clock. Tarmogoyf, possibly even Siege Rhino and/or Tasigur are going to be needed to ensure we can close out games in a reasonable amount of turns. Decks like Tron, Burn, Scapeshift, Whirza - all have some serious inevitability.
Burn and Scapeshift can be kept at bay with a main deck Iona lock. Some main board life gain helps these match-ups as well..
Tron is very different. A reasonable clock is critical but we can lock them out in a single turn with a Gifts pile. My go-to is of course the Fulminator/Unearth/Sun Titan/Unburial Rites pile. But with 3-4 main deck Relic of Progenitus, they often laugh in our face.
Whirza is a whole new animal for me. Admittedly I haven't piloted any 4C Gifts configuration against this opponent yet. I would imagine that a pile such as Knight of Autumn / Unearth / Snapcaster Mage / Nature's Claim - would be pretty effective but I'm not about to keep a Nature's Claim in the main deck. Maybe a case could be made for a single Knight of Autumn since it has so many applications.
Admittedly I haven't played 4C gifts in a competitive REL environment is over 2 years. I've been a die-hard Death's Shadow grinder since then. But Shadow is heavily meta dependant and can get hosed out pretty badly if the stars don't align just right. In a wide open fresh meta game like we find ourselves in now, I think it's time I return to my Swiss Army Knife. Back to 4C gifts for a Modern Championship near me coming in a few weeks.
I am pretty excited what your findings will be at the MC, the list looks quite good, although Elesh Norn in the board seems wild to me at first glance, as does the (almost) lack of Lingering Souls and LotV. I wouldn't leave the house without 2 Snapcaster Mages, too. The rest is neat, Eternal Witness is a pain with 1GG sometimes, this would probably mean that I'd need to get rid off JtMS mainboard. 12 fetchlands seem excessive, how does the life loss work out so far (maybe include an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth somewhere, this land is so great)? How do you reliably discard your drawn combo pieces, Brutality, Chart a Course, JVP and a single LotV don't seem to be enough?
Matchup-wise I am not really worried about Titanshift to be honest, I think we can delay their clock with discard and pretty much lock them out via Iona on G, which is in principle also true for Burn, but their clock is half a turn or a turn faster than Titanshift's, which makes me a little worried. I haven't played much against Burn but the matchup was unfavourable, most definitely. A more midrange-ish build with Goyf might help here as well, Goyf is a good wall if need be. I can't comment on the sideboard much, but what do you plan to do against UWx Control, pressure early and Jund 'em out? I have always found that their lategame has more inevitability and Loam/Crime was our most promising path to victory, that's why I still have Tec Edge in the list over Field or Ghost Quarter. This lets me lose percentage points against Tron, obviously, which is why I try to hinder them with Damping Sphere and Unmoored Ego in the sideboard, the latter which incidentally helps against Titanshift and Whirza, respectively. What about Monastery Mentor btw., has anyone thought about this route? Unearth comes in handy here as well.
Whirza is interesting, we can reliably kill Urza as soon as he hits the board I suppose, between Path, Push, Trophy and LotV/Maelstrom Pulse he won't stick for long and our disruption pieces hit pretty much their entire deck. As far as the rest is concerned, this is a matchup where I rely on Explosives/Ruins to deal with whatever they are trying to do, the same strategy that basically applies to artifact prison strategies such as Lantern, throw in some Lingering Souls to have a slight clock and you are not in the worst of spots. Again, not much experience in these matchups, mostly theorycrafting. On the other hand, combining disruption with a clock with an Unearth package sounds pretty appealing, too, so I might go down this route as I have everything sleeved up already.
In my past experiences with the deck, Burn and Tron are always the most difficult matches. Hence Iona in the main and Norn in the SB. Also running Fulminator in the main for tron and Scapeshift. I've felt like LOTV is not particularly potent in the current metagame but maybe it's correct to at least swap Last Hope for another LOTV. Lingering Souls is another card that is so horrendously bad in certain matches that I don't want to draw it too often. It's great against BGx and UWx hence my extra copy in the board. I think the trap that I see a lot of Gifts lists fall into (in this thread and elsewhere) is running too many 3-drops. I've got 9 here including Snapcaster Mage. I've chosen to include things like Knight if Autumn and Kaya's Guile over additional copies of Souls and LOTV.
It's funny you mention the Witness and Snapcaster though. I thought about dropping the Witness for another Snap but I like that Witness comes back with Titan and gets back Planeswalkers or even another threat such as Tarmogoyf.
Whirza is ridiculously powerful. It's not even Urza himself. But also holding removal for him doesn't help much when they can combo off at instant speed. It's a very consistent engine and Thopter + Sword can grind for a long time. Elesh Norn helps lock them off but they have soft locks of their own. Admittedly I haven't played this match up yet but I speculate that it might be difficult
I feel that LotV is holding the deck together somewhat, in every build I have tried so far I have missed slamming turn 3 LotV into turn 4 interaction or Gifts at the end of their turn. She complements the discard suite and is an absolute house (and one of the better bets) against UWx currently, otherwise the matchup is a little lopsided I feel. Good that you mention the 3-drop issue, I fell into this exact trap with an UWx-like build of 4C Gifts quite recently, which felt super clunky at times due to precisely this. I had a look at my current list and I run 10 3-drops in the mainboard, including Snapcaster Mage (although he's a 4-drop at times as well). The sideboard contains another 5 3-drops in LtLH, Cry of the Carnarium, Ensnaring Bridge and 2x Unmoored Ego, so I'm quite top-heavy after all.
Witness vs. Snapcaster is a matter of priorities I guess, I can see the benefit of running Witness but you give up the instant speed interaction Snapcaster provides, getting back removal/discard also costs more than it does with Snapcaster. In your list however, there are several things he can't get back, so maybe Witness is the right call. That said, Tarmogoyf sounds appealing, although it depends on the graveyard just as the rest of the deck does, so there's not really a proper plan B I feel, which is probably true for most lists floating around currently.
Agreed, it has several angles of attack but so do we. I recall that Lantern and Whir Prison had troubles with GBx decks due to their removal suite that per default could hit artifacts. Sure, extrapolating this to Urza might not be 100% true but maybe shows a tendency that the matchup isn't totally awful like it is with Tron, for example. The popular lists don't have a pre-board answer for Elesh Norn either (apart from Whir for Nihil Spellbomb if you want to be precise), afterwards it is often just Trophy which might be an issue. Hard to tell but not hopeless I'd say.
Every other card in the deck I consider to be essential, and in most cases I would run more copies if I could. Even Chart a Course. It's very good in this type of shell
For the purposes of this exercise I consider Fulminator to be part of the core because of how good it is in the meta game. It's not great against Whirza, Humans, or any of the snow variation of decks for that matter. But it's decent against Burn, Jund and UW Control.. And it's fantastic against Tron and Scapeshift.
Looking at my flex slots and the cards I've chosen, notice they are all extremely flexible. I'd love to include probably +2 LOTV and +2 Chart a Course and maybe even another Snapcaster. But none of those offer the same unique flexibility that I have in these 5 cards. The only argument is that an extra Snap may be better than the first Eternal Witness. I think Witness getting back Fulminator, Ghost Quarter, Liliana, or a creature/threat is too valuable for such a low opportunity cost (i.e. 1 slot in my deck)
Only testing will tell if my presumptions are correct
The problem is that certain slots in the deck have dependencies (see the arrows) on other parts of the list, most prominently Academy Ruins which is pretty pointless without Engineered Explosives and/or Life from the Loam in the list, otherwise I have no way to tutor it up deterministically. The same is true for Tectonic Edge and Life from the Loam, a 1-of isn't even close to reliable enough without recursion. Raven's Crime is also pretty lacklustre without the latter, so cutting individual cards in the above list lets me throw over other choices as well. I feel that Maelstrom Pulse is important as a 1-of, just because I like to have enough unconditional removal available to assemble a proper Gifts pile to deal with virtually anything. That said, I'd probably like a 3rd copy of Lingering Souls somewhere in the list, maybe instead of Kaya's Guile given the shift in the metagame. Kalitas has been pretty solid in closing out the game rather quickly, stabilising against aggressive strategies and providing disruption against graveyard-centric decks, so he's not going anywhere for now.
Do you have any findings to report so far? I haven't had too much time for testing.
I really enjoy Gifts but I haven't played the deck in a very long time, what's the overall best shell nowadays? I suppose since the meta slow down a bit it's more viable now.
Feel free to share your list, we can see how well-aged it seems. What the best shell looks like currently is not really known I think, we are all experimenting, each of us with a (sometimes slightly) different ansatz. The most streamlined Gifts control list is probably the attrition-based Esper version without additional gimmicks involving green. If you want to dive into a midrange strategy, the more creature-heavy Junk Gifts approach of FuneralofGod (see above) is the way to go I think, this one contains silver bullets for many situations and (as always) is heavily customisable.
Feel free to share your list, we can see how well-aged it seems. What the best shell looks like currently is not really known I think, we are all experimenting, each of us with a (sometimes slightly) different ansatz. The most streamlined Gifts control list is probably the attrition-based Esper version without additional gimmicks involving green. If you want to dive into a midrange strategy, the more creature-heavy Junk Gifts approach of FuneralofGod (see above) is the way to go I think, this one contains silver bullets for many situations and (as always) is heavily customisable.
I don't have a list but I still have all the cards from the deck that I played a few years ago. Seeing 5C Niv-Mizzet being viable makes me want to comeback to the deck. My version was the 4C no red with Life from the Loam and Raven's Crime maindeck, also Sylvan Caryatid Lingering Souls, LoTV and so on. Normal stock I believe at the time.
As mentioned, there's not really a consensus on what's the optimal list, feel free to assemble a list and share. The deck does not play like 5C Niv, it's an entirely different story. That said, I always found Caryatid a little awkward with many 3-drops and it is a horrendous topdeck as well. Life from the Loam/Crime I would consider as a flex slot package, depending on the meta you are playing in.
I am currently working out a sideboarding plan for the more important matchups, if anyone has some wise words to contribute, please do so.
I'm the main proponent of Caryatid in Gift lists its great if you don't have Lili's and want to reliably ramp into a t3 Gifts. It's also a bit more resilient against burn than the average list as I can bring in worship from the board for the surprise gotcha lock with caryatid. I'm planning on testing BtL as a 1 or 2 of in my list but I haven't had the chance to play cards for the last few weeks even at a FNM level. I'm hopeful I can play FNM this week though.
The discussion around the flex slots in the deck let me consider Drown in the Loch, which can fill more than just one role and incidentally would also lower the mana curve a little. I would probably try it in place of Kaya's Guile and maybe it is even time to cut Damnation or Maelstrom Pulse to be able to run the card as a 3-of, eventually going up a copy of Lingering Souls as well. Mana-wise it should be pretty unproblematic, Sultai colours are almost always available turn 3 or earlier, I usually fetch for Overgrown Tomb/Watery Grave or the other way around, depending how my hand looks like. The next go-to is usually Hallowed Fountain for W, UU, BB, G where the 4th land does not matter anymore.
Paired with discard and the prevalence of fetch/shock mana bases, meeting the requirement of roughly CMC4 seems very doable, LotV further enables the card and is not as much of an antisynergy as she is with plain countermagic, we can still use it as a kill spell if need be or let her sit for a turn to hold up interaction. On top of that, counters give us the possibility to protect our Rites target, this has been an issue at times against decks with Path to Exile where we needed to hit an Elesh Norn, leading to her getting exiled immediately after she swept the board, eventually still losing us the game. It is however true that the card is probably horrible against Tron, but so is Damnation and Kaya's Guile as well, so there's that.
For you having trouble in the UWx matchup, have you considered Inkwell Leviathan as a quick way to close out the game post board, given you can force through a Gifts, when they probably boarded out their sweepers? The same holds true for Sphinx of the Steel Wind, it did great when Mardu Pyro was all over the place (most lists didn't run Path as far as I recall), same should hold true for Jund and Death's Shadow, however depending on the version. Maybe Terastodon is worth testing again as well, it puts up great pressure against non-interactive opponents.
I finally made it to an FNM after a long month of chaos that kept me from playing any mtg. It was well worth it as I was able to test a build with BtL in it and go completely undefeated(didn't lose a single game). The list below is what I tested and though I only saw BtL twice throughout the night it was nice as it served as extra copies of wraths (used against Humans and Boggles). It never felt like a dead card which I really liked, though I'll have to test it more as seeing it twice is a really small sample size.
Izzet Tempo 2-0
Lingering souls beats game 1 thrunn beats game 2
Humans 2-0
Game one btl for wrath and midrange beats game 2 gifts elsh norn. Player was a young kid that was new to the game
Burning Tree 2-0
Iona lock, elesh norn lock
Boggles 2-0
Pulse and wraths game 1 game 2 runed halo bought me time to get elesh norn on a clean board
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
1 Field of Ruin
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
1 Breeding Pool
1 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Island
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Chart a Course
2 Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
2 Sultai Charm
Spot Removal
3 Path to Exile
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Discard
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Collective Brutality
Unburial
1 Unburial Rites
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Wrath Package
1 Wrath of God
1 Settle the Wreckage
Ramp
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Value
4 Lingering Souls
1 Snapcaster Mage
Gifts
3 Gifts Ungiven
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Damping Sphere
2 Extirpate
1 Worship
2 Unmoored Ego
3 Kaya's Guile
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Day of Judgment
1 Noxious Revival
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
Regarding your list, I have a few comments as always: Now that Phoenix isn't prevalent anymore and Delver shouldn't be an issue either, I think it is time to replace the Stirring Wildwood and play either Colonnade or Tar Pit. Also, I wouldn't go below 9 fetchlands, but I guess I can't argue if it works fine for you. My experience so far was that CMC3 removal spells are immensely clunky, which is why I would advocate for Fatal Push, triggering it is rarely an issue. Have you thought a bout 1 1-of Engineered Explosives? How was the split between IoK and Brutality so far? Taking higher-CMC cards such as JtMS or planeswalkers against UWx always feels great, I wouldn't want to miss Thoughtseize. Not a fan of Chart a Course (and Radical Idea after I tested it) to be honest, it just doesn't do enough and consumes an entire turn in the early game. Especially not as more grindy, slow-pace games seem to approach, I can't value the full set of Liliana of the Veil high enough.
Given the opportunity, let me share my current build as well, although not much has changed in the Rock version.
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Land
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Engineered Explosives
Instant
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Path to Exile
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
3 Assassin's Trophy
1 Kaya's Guile
Sorcery
1 Life from the Loam
1 Damnation
1 Raven's Crime
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Unburial Rites
2 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Stony Silence
1 Kaya's Guile
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull
2 Torpor Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Spellskite
1 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
I have adopted a single Thrun in the sideboard, we'll see if the GG is an issue, Ensnaring Bridge has been moved in favour of a Kaya's Guile although it has been quite good several times already. An active Liliana together with a Bridge is quite good against most non-GB creature-based decks in the format, occasionally even temporarily against UWx and their Colonnades, but that's not the main point. Otherwise pretty much standard, Kalitas has performed great so far, I would fit the 3rd Lingering Souls if I could though, closing out games fast enough when turning the corner is key in many games, we can't establish the same level of lategame board control as UWx.
Looking at your list- the only thing that I might change without testing is a simple upgrade from Tendrils to Cry of the Carnarium. Its same effect and cmc but you give up devoid to get all creatures put in the grave that turn so they can't sac in response to keep it from getting exiled. I also think you can go down a surgical in the board with Kaya's guile to help control the grave and without looting they can't fill it before t3. If you did free up a sb slot I would recomend a copy of unmoored ego- being able to hit tron lands or lotus field(twiddle storm) on the play is nice.
In general I'm not looking to change up my manabase barring a major change to the 75 and color weights, its worked pretty well. Wildwood was picked as for its ability to block flyers. If I can pick up a colonade in trade I'll probably pick it up as a way to close out games.
In general looking at my deck from the the london version, I feel there are a few issues to "solve".
1. I aim to 1 for 1 outvalue my opponent's but I have no card draw and play 3 collective brutalities meaning I general go topdeck first.
2. I can reliably get to late game but can't reliably pressure or find Gifts to capitalize on the late game.
3. Like most Gift decks I suffer from the bad draws issue, further complicating the 1 for 1 plan.
4. My deck's sb is fairly heavy against combo decks but I don't see an disproportionate amount in my meta... not sure why I weighted the board that way.
I did some testing yesterday at the lgs to see if there is some missed/new tech that can help with these problems The testing was against gb elves (you take what you can get in pickup games/testing lol.) we Played for about 4 hours which with GB elves means there was quite a few games. So I was able to see the cards in various numbers and situations.
Chart a course - strong controlled filtering was really nice but sorcery speed meant I was constantly holding it back to hold up removal or going shields down to filter my hand. It might get better in slower[ matches or versions with T3feri where you can make it instant.
Chemister's insight - can be pitched and used as a discard outlet. The blind discard isn't great but would be at home in a more draw go shell. I'll be running it as a one of in place of my champion of wits as it generates card advantage and is instant.
Sultai charm - never dead and the instant speed is amazing, but the mana is HARD to cast on T3, its not impossible to do it naturally but its another case where Caryatid is key for casting it in my build.
Nissa, voice of zendikar - mana is really hard to cast with 1gg, and isn't great as a draw without already having a stable board as the plant tokens do very little on their own.
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
1 Breeding Pool
1 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Island
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
2 Sultai Charm
1 Chemister's Insight
Spot Removal
3 Path to Exile
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Discard
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Collective Brutality
Unburial
1 Unburial Rites
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Midrange
1 Wrath of God
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Lingering Souls
1 Thragtusk
Gifts
1 Bring to Light
3 Gifts Ungiven
Ramp
4 Sylvan Caryatid
HVT Package
1 Noxious Revival
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Damping Sphere
1 Extirpate
1 Worship
2 Unmoored Ego
2 Kaya's Guile
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Day of Judgment
1 Collective Brutality
2 Duress (Thoughtseize if I can trade for them)
Drops-
D Sphere- sorcery speed and can't be recurred without noxious. Was better when my build had a suntitan. but with exile not being as key anymore it going to the maybeboard.
search #2- its not great in multiples and with more ways to filter my hand I'm less reliant on dodging bad draws.
Champion of Wits- I keep going back in forth with him. But he's being dropped as I don't run titan and his filtering is sorcery speed without generating real card advantage.
Extirpate #2- don't need 2 extirpates without an influx of combo or grave decks.
Loam/Crime- too slow for most matches and Thrunn is stronger against control decks.
Nihil Spellbomb- grave decks should die down some. And w/o looting they'll be slower/less consistent making kaya's guile stronger.
Baneslayer- Rarely used if I was up against aggro the troll worship lock was my stronger line outside of locking from gifts. Though if BTL performs it might make it back to the 75.
Moves-
Day/Verdict- testing the idea of moving the wraths to sb and relying on snap/noxious to have access to the singleton wrath. Time will tell if the lack of t3/4 wrath will be an issue.
Noxious- moving to main for its ability to HVT package to get thigs like Wrath, Bog or removal as needed.
Adds
Thragtusk - board/life stabilizer.
Chemister's Insight- replacing champion as it can be "flashbacked" or hard casted at instant speed generating card adavantage.
BTL- Second copy of just about any card in my main deck though I'm not a BTL deck but getting wraths/gifts/unburial/thragtusk(5th color with caryatid) etc is too strong to ignore for testing.
sultia charm- looting effect with straight upside in utility.
Gideon, ally - past testing has shown he's powerful. Making tokens is nice can also anthem our board which with a set of souls out can be lethal. A t3 gideon swings for 7 on t4 which is great for pressuring opponents.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
I recall your statement about Wildwood blocking Phoenix and dodging Bolt, yes. Now that this isn't an issue any longer or at least not with the speed the deck once had, I think Colonnade is the better catch in your deck. Under an Elesh Norn it also hits for 6 in the air, which helps closing out games before the opponent can find meaningful interaction, in the end she dies to Path, Terminate, Dreadbore and locking out one colour often doesn't do it either.
Reading through your bullet points above I was wondering about one statement: You say that you would like to 1-for-1 your opponent into oblivion and take the lead with better topdecks, which is generally true but in strong contrast to playing the full set of Caryatids. I have gone down to zero copies because of precisely this issue, they don't pressure the opponent even after an Elesh Norn hits the field and feel so bad when drawn after turn 2-3. And frankly, the mana base is fine in 4 colours without them and 25 lands, given you run 9-10 on-colour fetchlands and only 1-2 utility lands. That said, while testing I did not have too many issues with Sultai Charm on turn 3 even without dorks, BUG are my main colours, but I found it to be a little clunky and went back to Decay/Trophy, respectively.
I can see Chemister's Insight being good, but it clogs up your hand in the 4-drop slot which is a notorious problem for this kind of deck (alongside with UWx, but for another reason). The same thing is true for BtL, it looks good on paper but is pure clunk when you have it in your starting hand which again, is already an issue at times with our two big creatures. Without much selection/filtering I would go for the full 4x Gifts Ungiven, I always want to draw one. At this point I'd like to ask again, why don't you run any LotV? Caryatids could even protect her if you are not willing to go down on those, she steamrolls the UWx matchup when leaved unchecked and helps grind out most opponents while you get rid off either their creatures of net value of discarding Souls or fatties. As mentioned many times by many people, she's the glue that kept the deck together for all these years. I like the inclusion of Gideon, AoZ in your list though, I see that he's much better on T3 than T4 which justifies playing dorks, 2WW doesn't seem like a challenge for your list, too. What's up with the single sweeper in your list? I recall that you were a strong proponent of playing 3 of those (or 2 with Revival) to guarantee a sweeper on turn 4 with a previously cast Gifts.
A side note on Mardu/Jund and/or Shadow builds, I recently tested against some of those (Pyro) builds and if your meta is heavy on this kind of strategy, try running Sphinx of the Steel Wind in your board as a Gifts/Rites target, it is totally hilarious as it kills Angler, Tasigur and all their dudes and they basically concede if you're not super far behind. They are also light on threats, so focus the removal on the Shadows, they are hit by everything be have from Push, Path, Decay, Trophy, Pulse and Liliana. Apart from that, they can't do much about your plan preboard.
I'm testing snap /nox for access to wrath off gifts. While it's nice to wrath on t3/4 I haven't had a need to wrath on curve as often with iok and it's a poor draw in multiples. So if I can cut back on my 4 drops and reliably get my one ofs off gifts it would be an improvement.
I agree that on paper btl sounds great and it's cheap enough (less than a dollar) that I can easily test it as a one of - it's my 4th gifts, 2 wrath/thragtusk/unburial etc. If it doesn't perform strong enough I have the 4th gifts sitting in my binder.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
I made room for 2x Unmoored Ego, but I fear this still isn't enough for the Tron matchup due to their inevitability and our lack of a proper clock. They will eventually still cast their big stuff and we're done for, Karn and/or Ulamog are a huge beating, they go after our lands usually. This is the most recent version of the board, by the way:
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Stony Silence
2 Torpor Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Damping Sphere
1 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Unmoored Ego
1 Cry of the Carnarium
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Burn and Scapeshift can be kept at bay with a main deck Iona lock. Some main board life gain helps these match-ups as well..
Tron is very different. A reasonable clock is critical but we can lock them out in a single turn with a Gifts pile. My go-to is of course the Fulminator/Unearth/Sun Titan/Unburial Rites pile. But with 3-4 main deck Relic of Progenitus, they often laugh in our face.
Whirza is a whole new animal for me. Admittedly I haven't piloted any 4C Gifts configuration against this opponent yet. I would imagine that a pile such as Knight of Autumn / Unearth / Snapcaster Mage / Nature's Claim - would be pretty effective but I'm not about to keep a Nature's Claim in the main deck. Maybe a case could be made for a single Knight of Autumn since it has so many applications.
Admittedly I haven't played 4C gifts in a competitive REL environment is over 2 years. I've been a die-hard Death's Shadow grinder since then. But Shadow is heavily meta dependant and can get hosed out pretty badly if the stars don't align just right. In a wide open fresh meta game like we find ourselves in now, I think it's time I return to my Swiss Army Knife. Back to 4C gifts for a Modern Championship near me coming in a few weeks.
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Jace, Vryn's prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Eternal witness
1 Sun Titan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Spells
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective brutality
1 Chart a Course
4 Gifts ungiven
2 Unearth
3 Assassin's Trophy
1 Fatal push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Path to exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Unburial Rites
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Lingering Souls
1 Liliana, the Last hope
1 Kaya's Guile
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Prismatic Vista
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding pool
1 Godless shrine
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Fetid Heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Weather the Storm
1 Damnation
1 Wrath of god
2 Collective Brutality
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Nature's Claim
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Lingering Souls
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
The Sideboard is a bit ambitious but I'm feeling confidant on the variation of answers
Draft My Cube!
Matchup-wise I am not really worried about Titanshift to be honest, I think we can delay their clock with discard and pretty much lock them out via Iona on G, which is in principle also true for Burn, but their clock is half a turn or a turn faster than Titanshift's, which makes me a little worried. I haven't played much against Burn but the matchup was unfavourable, most definitely. A more midrange-ish build with Goyf might help here as well, Goyf is a good wall if need be. I can't comment on the sideboard much, but what do you plan to do against UWx Control, pressure early and Jund 'em out? I have always found that their lategame has more inevitability and Loam/Crime was our most promising path to victory, that's why I still have Tec Edge in the list over Field or Ghost Quarter. This lets me lose percentage points against Tron, obviously, which is why I try to hinder them with Damping Sphere and Unmoored Ego in the sideboard, the latter which incidentally helps against Titanshift and Whirza, respectively. What about Monastery Mentor btw., has anyone thought about this route? Unearth comes in handy here as well.
Whirza is interesting, we can reliably kill Urza as soon as he hits the board I suppose, between Path, Push, Trophy and LotV/Maelstrom Pulse he won't stick for long and our disruption pieces hit pretty much their entire deck. As far as the rest is concerned, this is a matchup where I rely on Explosives/Ruins to deal with whatever they are trying to do, the same strategy that basically applies to artifact prison strategies such as Lantern, throw in some Lingering Souls to have a slight clock and you are not in the worst of spots. Again, not much experience in these matchups, mostly theorycrafting. On the other hand, combining disruption with a clock with an Unearth package sounds pretty appealing, too, so I might go down this route as I have everything sleeved up already.
It's funny you mention the Witness and Snapcaster though. I thought about dropping the Witness for another Snap but I like that Witness comes back with Titan and gets back Planeswalkers or even another threat such as Tarmogoyf.
Whirza is ridiculously powerful. It's not even Urza himself. But also holding removal for him doesn't help much when they can combo off at instant speed. It's a very consistent engine and Thopter + Sword can grind for a long time. Elesh Norn helps lock them off but they have soft locks of their own. Admittedly I haven't played this match up yet but I speculate that it might be difficult
Draft My Cube!
Witness vs. Snapcaster is a matter of priorities I guess, I can see the benefit of running Witness but you give up the instant speed interaction Snapcaster provides, getting back removal/discard also costs more than it does with Snapcaster. In your list however, there are several things he can't get back, so maybe Witness is the right call. That said, Tarmogoyf sounds appealing, although it depends on the graveyard just as the rest of the deck does, so there's not really a proper plan B I feel, which is probably true for most lists floating around currently.
Agreed, it has several angles of attack but so do we. I recall that Lantern and Whir Prison had troubles with GBx decks due to their removal suite that per default could hit artifacts. Sure, extrapolating this to Urza might not be 100% true but maybe shows a tendency that the matchup isn't totally awful like it is with Tron, for example. The popular lists don't have a pre-board answer for Elesh Norn either (apart from Whir for Nihil Spellbomb if you want to be precise), afterwards it is often just Trophy which might be an issue. Hard to tell but not hopeless I'd say.
- Knight of Autumn
- Kaya's Guile
- Maelstrom Pulse
- Eternal Witness
- Jace, Vryn's prodigy
Every other card in the deck I consider to be essential, and in most cases I would run more copies if I could. Even Chart a Course. It's very good in this type of shellFor the purposes of this exercise I consider Fulminator to be part of the core because of how good it is in the meta game. It's not great against Whirza, Humans, or any of the snow variation of decks for that matter. But it's decent against Burn, Jund and UW Control.. And it's fantastic against Tron and Scapeshift.
Looking at my flex slots and the cards I've chosen, notice they are all extremely flexible. I'd love to include probably +2 LOTV and +2 Chart a Course and maybe even another Snapcaster. But none of those offer the same unique flexibility that I have in these 5 cards. The only argument is that an extra Snap may be better than the first Eternal Witness. I think Witness getting back Fulminator, Ghost Quarter, Liliana, or a creature/threat is too valuable for such a low opportunity cost (i.e. 1 slot in my deck)
Only testing will tell if my presumptions are correct
Draft My Cube!
Do you have any findings to report so far? I haven't had too much time for testing.
I don't have a list but I still have all the cards from the deck that I played a few years ago. Seeing 5C Niv-Mizzet being viable makes me want to comeback to the deck. My version was the 4C no red with Life from the Loam and Raven's Crime maindeck, also Sylvan Caryatid Lingering Souls, LoTV and so on. Normal stock I believe at the time.
I am currently working out a sideboarding plan for the more important matchups, if anyone has some wise words to contribute, please do so.
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495
Paired with discard and the prevalence of fetch/shock mana bases, meeting the requirement of roughly CMC4 seems very doable, LotV further enables the card and is not as much of an antisynergy as she is with plain countermagic, we can still use it as a kill spell if need be or let her sit for a turn to hold up interaction. On top of that, counters give us the possibility to protect our Rites target, this has been an issue at times against decks with Path to Exile where we needed to hit an Elesh Norn, leading to her getting exiled immediately after she swept the board, eventually still losing us the game. It is however true that the card is probably horrible against Tron, but so is Damnation and Kaya's Guile as well, so there's that.
For you having trouble in the UWx matchup, have you considered Inkwell Leviathan as a quick way to close out the game post board, given you can force through a Gifts, when they probably boarded out their sweepers? The same holds true for Sphinx of the Steel Wind, it did great when Mardu Pyro was all over the place (most lists didn't run Path as far as I recall), same should hold true for Jund and Death's Shadow, however depending on the version. Maybe Terastodon is worth testing again as well, it puts up great pressure against non-interactive opponents.
Izzet Tempo 2-0
Lingering souls beats game 1 thrunn beats game 2
Humans 2-0
Game one btl for wrath and midrange beats game 2 gifts elsh norn. Player was a young kid that was new to the game
Burning Tree 2-0
Iona lock, elesh norn lock
Boggles 2-0
Pulse and wraths game 1 game 2 runed halo bought me time to get elesh norn on a clean board
1 Field of Ruin
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
1 Breeding Pool
1 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Island
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Plains
Wraths
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment
2 Path to Exile
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Discard
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Collective Brutality
Unburial
1 Unburial Rites
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Midrange
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Lingering Souls
1 Snapcaster Mage
BTL
2 Bring to Light
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
Ramp
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Gifts
3 Gifts Ungiven
Card Selection
1 Radical Idea
1 Sultai Charm
1 Noxious Revival
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Damping Sphere
1 Extirpate
1 Worship
2 Unmoored Ego
1 Kaya's Guile
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Collective Brutality
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1 Path to Exile
1 Baneslayer Angel
4c Gifts Deck Stats: https://bit.ly/2XMPrlY
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/120495