@timewalkinonsunshine Thank you for all your input to this forum! Definitely appreciated
So I have a quick question. I am running a UW build and I am finding difficulty in building a sideboard for this deck. I know it is something talked about frequently in this group.
It has felt awkward because generally this deck is strong as is against a lot of the creature decks. I also think dedicating 6 board wipe sideboard options is too much however I don't really like the Chalice of the Void either as they haven't really had any shine moments. The terminus and timely reinforcements however have been excellent and I think the numbers are accurate.
So to my question... does anyone else have other strong recommendations? (sidenote: burn is something I am trying to beat as well as maradu pyromancer)
I agree with Shweepsh those are all great options. If you have Snapcaster Mage and don't want to turn it off with RIP, Surgical Extraction is also a great choice that works well with both Snapcaster and Thing in the Ice. Another option I've heard of is Blessed Alliance, though I haven't tried it myself yet. It seems great against burn and bogles. On the other side of the spectrum, Geist of Saint Traft is a very aggressive option that can end the game quickly if you find you're having trouble closing out games. It works particularly well with Gigadrowse and Cryptic tapping opposing blockers to clear the way, then getting in multiple turns of attacks off of time walk effects. And of course, different kinds of counterspells are always options, but I'm not a huge fan of those for this deck. It's possible that your local meta is much more vulnerable to them though, so in the end you should do whatever you think will work best for you.
If you are going into white, would Fire Walker be a card you would want?
While Kor Firewalker is a great card in the abstract against burn, it's also quite difficult to cast a double white spell early in the game unless the mana base is very skewed white (which I assume it isn't given that white is a splash color). According to Frank Karsten's article on how many colored mana sources you need, it takes 20 white mana sources to consistently (90% of the time) have WW by turn 2, and 19 mana sources to consistently have it by turn 3. That just doesn't sound reasonable for a splash color. Having about 12 white sources to hit a single white by turn 3 for Timely Reinforcements is a much more reasonable deckbuilding constraint.
and I have seen a lot of improvements already.. this deck almost seems impossible to beat with the current meta. It's low on the radar to the point that a lot of people have no idea how to properly sideboard against it and the deck can kind of switch it up enough that it can get around graveyard hate and most disruption. I plan on taking it to the Starcity Worcester event in July!
Sidenote: Boomerang is incredible. I don't know if anyone has tried it here. I think it would work well in the UB build as well @timewalkinonsunshine.. it's the perfect disruption for early game to get you to the combo turn.
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UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
Despite running at 61 cards it feels incredibly smooth and combos easily. The only change I would like to make is making room somewhere in the manabase possibly for a single Inkmoth Nexus and Gemstone Caverns
It has definitely become my pet deck quickly and I am in the process of foiling it out. All I have left are the snap caster mages and Jace as they cost wayyyyy too much lol
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UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
and I have seen a lot of improvements already.. this deck almost seems impossible to beat with the current meta. It's low on the radar to the point that a lot of people have no idea how to properly sideboard against it and the deck can kind of switch it up enough that it can get around graveyard hate and most disruption. I plan on taking it to the Starcity Worcester event in July!
Sidenote: Boomerang is incredible. I don't know if anyone has tried it here. I think it would work well in the UB build as well @timewalkinonsunshine.. it's the perfect disruption for early game to get you to the combo turn.
Your deck and sideboard look great against midrange and control, but it doesn't look great against aggro decks. Humans, Affinity, Burn, Elves, etc tend to give our deck trouble, and your main deck in particular is light on early game interaction. I don't imagine that Boomerang can be a very good card against those kinds of decks that go very wide and operate on two or three lands. Bouncing just one creature doesn't seem to slow them down enough, and even bouncing a land doesn't seem like enough of a roadblock, especially on the draw.
I think that board is leaning hard on Timely getting us to the critical amount of lands, or Terminus saving the day on a miracle shot as far as a board clear goes?
I've still not felt better against aggro, as I do with the black splash, simply because Path, while great as an answer, is terrible to me in this deck, giving the opponents more lands AND more cards (mines) is just...not wise. :]
Your deck and sideboard look great against midrange and control, but it doesn't look great against aggro decks. Humans, Affinity, Burn, Elves, etc tend to give our deck trouble, and your main deck in particular is light on early game interaction. I don't imagine that Boomerang can be a very good card against those kinds of decks that go very wide and operate on two or three lands. Bouncing just one creature doesn't seem to slow them down enough, and even bouncing a land doesn't seem like enough of a roadblock, especially on the draw.
I haven't had any problem with those style matches.. I will admit that there is only like one person in my area playing humans but against elves/affinity/BR Hollow One/Merfolk I haven't had any problems... It may be the lower play level as opposed to big tournaments but exhaustion and gigadrowse usually are enough game one to buy time in the early game and then after side boarding the deck is able to dig pretty fast for terminus given the serum visions/opt/remand/etc.. as well as the howling mine effects.
* The boomerang is nice against humans from what I have played though - I know it is only a one of but it is able to bounce meddling mage and their other interaction before starting our combo but can also work to remove counters from their champion and thalia lieutenant to stall the game long enough..
I have also found that search for azcanta in the deck allows for quicker more precise games because you can effectively start the combo on turn three with exhaustion and the search trigger working as a pseudo dictate/howling mine.. I find that I don't even flip it into a land in most games unless absolutely necessary because it is good enough on it's own. It also helps set up miracle temporal mastery..
Of course these are just my current views on the deck - I haven't taken it to anything big yet but in the local scene I have been having a lot of success lol!
Cheers guys!
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UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
To expensive for the traditional build. 1-of at best, but I would still probably take Temporal Trespass in that 'one off' slot over this. Instant is cool, but it would have to be better than what it is for me to take a 7 mana warp that has no major upside, other than letting us try and go off EOT and force a counter in response, so we can then go off on our turn...but 7 mana..
the main point is that the deck's list is already very tight. if this goes in something needs to come out: Time warp: costs 2 less mana. nope Temporal mastery: same cost but with the option of casting it for 2 (much more likely to happen than before, now that we have jace). nope. Part the waterveil: normal cost is less, and at 9 is our finisher. nope.
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
the main point is that the deck's list is already very tight. if this goes in something needs to come out: Time warp: costs 2 less mana. nope Temporal mastery: same cost but with the option of casting it for 2 (much more likely to happen than before, now that we have jace). nope. Part the waterveil: normal cost is less, and at 9 is our finisher. nope.
Exactly. I had a one of Trespass before, as a 'forced' late game miracle, but with Jace now in, its silly to go low on Mastery, Part is our main Win Con, and Warp is 5 Mana.
Its just not good enough in the normal build, because other than a 'Through the Breach EOT' type move to force the opponents hand, its literally worse than every other warp.
Decking will happen if this card is 'needed' the only way you deck, is if you have multiple mines in play (so the reshuffle wont save you) or you opponent is on a Mill deck and you likely are in NEED of a Miracle to save yourself from getting milled.
Nexus of Fate does seem to open up new win cons. Having fewer Turns spells that exile and more that stay in your deck would let a pair of Elixir of Immortality take us us truly infinite. Once there we can win off of our choice of singleton win cons. Or they could just scoop to oppressive board state if we startbouncing their permanents while we patiently dig for win cons. Overall, not a bad route to go down, if a little more troll than some ofourusualwincons.
I should also point our we were given a very powerful tool against Burn and Aggro in Fountain of Renewal. It may prove to be a situatioinal upgrade from sun droplet. I certainly do like that it only costs 1.
I don't believe that Karn solves any problems that the deck may have. He simply leads to a different version of the deck, one in which I doubt would be an improvement. The UR-Chandra version has always appealed to me, but I don't consider it better or more consistent than my UW version; thus, I have never considered acquiring the cards a worthy use of time & resources. At least Jace makes an immediate impact by either digging three cards deep or delaying their largest threat. Any chance that an artifact-Karn version could accelerate in order to combo sooner, like the BANT version?
Thank you Xenob8! Welcome back Purklefluff! I've been waiting to hear your conclusions from testing your UR(splash) with 2x Pyroclasm in the side board. Because of the rising popularity of Humans, I imagine it has a lot of promise. If you would rather save your thoughts for the Primer, then by all means, I will wait. I look forward to some updates.
Since tuning, my UW version has performed well at FNM. I only lose to fast red decks (burn and goblins). Although, I have yet to be paired against Jund. Has anyone tested with Sphere of Safety?
Could you do me a favor and post your UW build??
I have also been having good fortune with the UW version for about 2 years now. This is what I took to FNM last friday. I took 1st and went undefeated after not playing the deck at all for the last 4 months(very busy semester). The sideboard is four months out of date and after seeing lots of hollow one and instant reanimator around my local meta, I will likely go up to 3 Rest in Peace or look at adding Grafdigger's Cage. I have tested many versions of this deck and have settled on the lowest curve possible which still maximizes interaction, and can still take over the game come turn 5. I have been strongly advocating having a white sideboard because of the high quality of hate it brings to the table.
Ahh thank you! It seems like your list is a lot more of a UW control style with the win condition being Taking Turns haha.. I have thought about doing the same as you can kind of see my deck heading. I like remand a lot but it also is starting to feel like a dead card again though... I have been playing a lot of matches against mardu pyromancer in my area lately and remand does nothing to stop them because all of their spells are one mana so you really can't set them back in the way countering a collected company or planes walker does.
For that reason... I am currently experimenting with: 1x Spell Snare, increasing the number of gigadrowse and exhaustion and relying more on straight up mana denial, and including 2x as foretold [these are not all being done at once lol] But I think as foretold has a lot of promise. I used to run it as a 1x of in place of a dictate and I loved it! On turns where you miracle a temporal mastery, being able to cast as foretold makes your following turns infinitely better since it allows you to cast things like serum vision for free.. and as the combo goes on it only becomes more and more of a utility..
Ever since I increased my land count the added effect of drawing cards of remand hasn't seemed as important.
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UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
I like remand a lot but it also is starting to feel like a dead card again though... I have been playing a lot of matches against mardu pyromancer in my area lately and remand does nothing to stop them because all of their spells are one mana so you really can't set them back in the way countering a collected company or planes walker does.
I definitely side remand out against ultra low curve decks. (Robots, Burn, Jund Shadow, ect). But its the closest we have to a straight up Two-mana Time Warp so I keep it in my main. And I do have a piece of advice that I hope will help you a little bit with Mardu Pyroamncer. Gigadrowse is your best one-mana Time Warp, and against two mana decks (Scapeshift, Storm, and Mardu Pyro), it is absolutely correct to use it right away to keep their two mana spell stuck in their hand on the second turn. It sets them back a turn which effectively buys you a free turn. I have compared it to: When they shoot the pistol to start a race, and you reach out to the guy next to you and push him backwards as you launch yourself off the starting line.
Similar results can be found when your on the play and you bounce their only land.
I am not suggesting it's an automatic include or even decent, but the new instant speed time warp for 7 mana should probably form part of the general discussion. I can think of a few instances where having an instant option like this (that shuffles back in no less!) could be really useful.
It may mean a bit of a tweak here and there, or it may never actually work out as an option, but i like the possibilities enabled by this new card being printed. =)
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Well the fact it's instant is just the stuff of edge cases. I won't bother worrying about that.
The reshuffling allows for true infinite turns, but I think at that point we warp away from actually killing, to a win con of decking or mind sculpted ultimate?
Could work out, but I feel it's less flexible than our current setup.
Nexus of fate is only valid if you get all of your mines off the table before the loop really. Decking yourself is still an issue. Furthermore, it won't loop with a RIP in play.
At first I thought some kind of dig like thought scour and flashing it back with snapcaster or torrential gearhulk would be worth while, but the reshuffle is if it hits the GY from anywhere, not just from cast.
7 is a lot of mana...a lot a lot. Temporal mastery only works because it lets me stick a Jace/mine/interact with opponent mid combo to further reduce fizzles if I miracle.
Yes when I mentioned going infinite I also mentioned going bounce heavy. This would keep problem permanents like Rest in Peace and Stony Silence off the table. Plus those hands where your busy digging for a win con can often be won due to oppressive board state. Back when I was testing non-infinite bounce heavy turns, most people scooped on turn 7 when I cast a time warp and then bounced their last (or second to last) land. Truly infinite turns might look a bit more like this.
The curve I ended up with (a glut of 2 mana spells), pushed me toward choosing Delver as a win con. Back when I tested delver (in non infinite turns) I found that the first one often ate a Bolt/Path/Push and the second one handed them lethal. When you come up across a removal heavy deck you can be glad that (unless all of their answers are Path to Exile or he gets Surgicalled) then you can confidently still kill them with your 12th delver if that is how many its going to take. Plus in a deck that might take 10+ minutes to win some hands, its important to have at least one of your win cons able to take the game over quickly (time-wise). But honestly one could choose just about any 3-4 win cons they want, most ideally several different singletonsthatwinfromdifferentangles. Also since we are going infinite and planning on reshuffling several times, we may want to include the big daddy game ender since his automatic reshuffle acts as mill protection.
I agree with Shweepsh those are all great options. If you have Snapcaster Mage and don't want to turn it off with RIP, Surgical Extraction is also a great choice that works well with both Snapcaster and Thing in the Ice. Another option I've heard of is Blessed Alliance, though I haven't tried it myself yet. It seems great against burn and bogles. On the other side of the spectrum, Geist of Saint Traft is a very aggressive option that can end the game quickly if you find you're having trouble closing out games. It works particularly well with Gigadrowse and Cryptic tapping opposing blockers to clear the way, then getting in multiple turns of attacks off of time walk effects. And of course, different kinds of counterspells are always options, but I'm not a huge fan of those for this deck. It's possible that your local meta is much more vulnerable to them though, so in the end you should do whatever you think will work best for you.
While Kor Firewalker is a great card in the abstract against burn, it's also quite difficult to cast a double white spell early in the game unless the mana base is very skewed white (which I assume it isn't given that white is a splash color). According to Frank Karsten's article on how many colored mana sources you need, it takes 20 white mana sources to consistently (90% of the time) have WW by turn 2, and 19 mana sources to consistently have it by turn 3. That just doesn't sound reasonable for a splash color. Having about 12 white sources to hit a single white by turn 3 for Timely Reinforcements is a much more reasonable deckbuilding constraint.
my sideboard now looks like:
4x Terminus
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Swan Song
1x Celestial Purge
1x Echoing Truth
1x Dispel
3x Timely Reinforcements
and I have seen a lot of improvements already.. this deck almost seems impossible to beat with the current meta. It's low on the radar to the point that a lot of people have no idea how to properly sideboard against it and the deck can kind of switch it up enough that it can get around graveyard hate and most disruption. I plan on taking it to the Starcity Worcester event in July!
Sidenote: Boomerang is incredible. I don't know if anyone has tried it here. I think it would work well in the UB build as well @timewalkinonsunshine.. it's the perfect disruption for early game to get you to the combo turn.
2 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (1):
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Enchantments (6):
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Dictate of Kruphix
Artifacts (2):
2 Howling Mine
Instants (10):
3 Opt
2 Remand
2 Gigadrowse
1 Boomerang
2 Cryptic Command
4 Serum Visions
1 Day's Undoing
4 Time Warp
3 Temporal Mastery
3 Part the Waterveil
3 Exhaustion
Lands (22):
7 Island
1 Plains
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
Despite running at 61 cards it feels incredibly smooth and combos easily. The only change I would like to make is making room somewhere in the manabase possibly for a single Inkmoth Nexus and Gemstone Caverns
It has definitely become my pet deck quickly and I am in the process of foiling it out. All I have left are the snap caster mages and Jace as they cost wayyyyy too much lol
Your deck and sideboard look great against midrange and control, but it doesn't look great against aggro decks. Humans, Affinity, Burn, Elves, etc tend to give our deck trouble, and your main deck in particular is light on early game interaction. I don't imagine that Boomerang can be a very good card against those kinds of decks that go very wide and operate on two or three lands. Bouncing just one creature doesn't seem to slow them down enough, and even bouncing a land doesn't seem like enough of a roadblock, especially on the draw.
I've still not felt better against aggro, as I do with the black splash, simply because Path, while great as an answer, is terrible to me in this deck, giving the opponents more lands AND more cards (mines) is just...not wise. :]
Spirits
I haven't had any problem with those style matches.. I will admit that there is only like one person in my area playing humans but against elves/affinity/BR Hollow One/Merfolk I haven't had any problems... It may be the lower play level as opposed to big tournaments but exhaustion and gigadrowse usually are enough game one to buy time in the early game and then after side boarding the deck is able to dig pretty fast for terminus given the serum visions/opt/remand/etc.. as well as the howling mine effects.
* The boomerang is nice against humans from what I have played though - I know it is only a one of but it is able to bounce meddling mage and their other interaction before starting our combo but can also work to remove counters from their champion and thalia lieutenant to stall the game long enough..
I have also found that search for azcanta in the deck allows for quicker more precise games because you can effectively start the combo on turn three with exhaustion and the search trigger working as a pseudo dictate/howling mine.. I find that I don't even flip it into a land in most games unless absolutely necessary because it is good enough on it's own. It also helps set up miracle temporal mastery..
Of course these are just my current views on the deck - I haven't taken it to anything big yet but in the local scene I have been having a lot of success lol!
Cheers guys!
Yeah I just dont see it.
Spirits
This new toy looks good. It will replace some PtW/Temp mastery or just fail horribly. I believe its the former.
Time warp: costs 2 less mana. nope
Temporal mastery: same cost but with the option of casting it for 2 (much more likely to happen than before, now that we have jace). nope.
Part the waterveil: normal cost is less, and at 9 is our finisher. nope.
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Exactly. I had a one of Trespass before, as a 'forced' late game miracle, but with Jace now in, its silly to go low on Mastery, Part is our main Win Con, and Warp is 5 Mana.
Its just not good enough in the normal build, because other than a 'Through the Breach EOT' type move to force the opponents hand, its literally worse than every other warp.
Decking will happen if this card is 'needed' the only way you deck, is if you have multiple mines in play (so the reshuffle wont save you) or you opponent is on a Mill deck and you likely are in NEED of a Miracle to save yourself from getting milled.
Spirits
I should also point our we were given a very powerful tool against Burn and Aggro in Fountain of Renewal. It may prove to be a situatioinal upgrade from sun droplet. I certainly do like that it only costs 1.
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
I have also been having good fortune with the UW version for about 2 years now. This is what I took to FNM last friday. I took 1st and went undefeated after not playing the deck at all for the last 4 months(very busy semester). The sideboard is four months out of date and after seeing lots of hollow one and instant reanimator around my local meta, I will likely go up to 3 Rest in Peace or look at adding Grafdigger's Cage. I have tested many versions of this deck and have settled on the lowest curve possible which still maximizes interaction, and can still take over the game come turn 5. I have been strongly advocating having a white sideboard because of the high quality of hate it brings to the table.
4 Remand
4 Exhaustion
4 Cryptic Command
4 Time Warp
3 Part the Waterveil
4 Dictate of Kruphix
1 Jace Beleren
1 Day's Undoing
4 Howling Mine
4 Thing in the Ice
4 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Prairie Stream
2 Mystic Gate
3 Glacial Fortress
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Cascading Cataracts
4 Angel's Grace
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
For that reason... I am currently experimenting with: 1x Spell Snare, increasing the number of gigadrowse and exhaustion and relying more on straight up mana denial, and including 2x as foretold [these are not all being done at once lol] But I think as foretold has a lot of promise. I used to run it as a 1x of in place of a dictate and I loved it! On turns where you miracle a temporal mastery, being able to cast as foretold makes your following turns infinitely better since it allows you to cast things like serum vision for free.. and as the combo goes on it only becomes more and more of a utility..
Ever since I increased my land count the added effect of drawing cards of remand hasn't seemed as important.
I definitely side remand out against ultra low curve decks. (Robots, Burn, Jund Shadow, ect). But its the closest we have to a straight up Two-mana Time Warp so I keep it in my main. And I do have a piece of advice that I hope will help you a little bit with Mardu Pyroamncer. Gigadrowse is your best one-mana Time Warp, and against two mana decks (Scapeshift, Storm, and Mardu Pyro), it is absolutely correct to use it right away to keep their two mana spell stuck in their hand on the second turn. It sets them back a turn which effectively buys you a free turn. I have compared it to: When they shoot the pistol to start a race, and you reach out to the guy next to you and push him backwards as you launch yourself off the starting line.
Similar results can be found when your on the play and you bounce their only land.
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange
It may mean a bit of a tweak here and there, or it may never actually work out as an option, but i like the possibilities enabled by this new card being printed. =)
The reshuffling allows for true infinite turns, but I think at that point we warp away from actually killing, to a win con of decking or mind sculpted ultimate?
Could work out, but I feel it's less flexible than our current setup.
Spirits
Nexus of fate is only valid if you get all of your mines off the table before the loop really. Decking yourself is still an issue. Furthermore, it won't loop with a RIP in play.
At first I thought some kind of dig like thought scour and flashing it back with snapcaster or torrential gearhulk would be worth while, but the reshuffle is if it hits the GY from anywhere, not just from cast.
7 is a lot of mana...a lot a lot. Temporal mastery only works because it lets me stick a Jace/mine/interact with opponent mid combo to further reduce fizzles if I miracle.
Not sure I like it's only available in foil lol
Yes when I mentioned going infinite I also mentioned going bounce heavy. This would keep problem permanents like Rest in Peace and Stony Silence off the table. Plus those hands where your busy digging for a win con can often be won due to oppressive board state. Back when I was testing non-infinite bounce heavy turns, most people scooped on turn 7 when I cast a time warp and then bounced their last (or second to last) land. Truly infinite turns might look a bit more like this.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Elixir of Immortality
4 Boomerang
4 Eye of Nowhere
2 Dictate of Kruphix
4 Cryptic Command
2 Walk the Aeons
2 Nexus of Fate
1 Part the Waterveil
This list probably needs 1-2 more engines.
The curve I ended up with (a glut of 2 mana spells), pushed me toward choosing Delver as a win con. Back when I tested delver (in non infinite turns) I found that the first one often ate a Bolt/Path/Push and the second one handed them lethal. When you come up across a removal heavy deck you can be glad that (unless all of their answers are Path to Exile or he gets Surgicalled) then you can confidently still kill them with your 12th delver if that is how many its going to take. Plus in a deck that might take 10+ minutes to win some hands, its important to have at least one of your win cons able to take the game over quickly (time-wise). But honestly one could choose just about any 3-4 win cons they want, most ideally several different singletons that win from different angles. Also since we are going infinite and planning on reshuffling several times, we may want to include the big daddy game ender since his automatic reshuffle acts as mill protection.
Uw Taking Turns
The Bad Moon
Small Mardu Midrange
Big Mardu Midrange
Grixis Waste Not Combo
Bw 8-Rack
Bw Midrange