How do you guys feel about Exhaustion being a 4-of? Since I was playing online when it was bugged I never really felt the need to constantly play the card. My current list uses only 2.
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How do you guys feel about Exhaustion being a 4-of? Since I was playing online when it was bugged I never really felt the need to constantly play the card. My current list uses only 2.
It's great as a time warp against decks that aim to leverage the first few turns hard. Aggro and midrange spring to mind. Eldrazi, bogles, big mana decks like tron or scapeshift. It's terrible against reactive decks that sit back holding up counterspells.
It comes down to your meta and what you're weak against. For the most part I'd err on the side of needing more tools against aggro. At the moment I'm valuing exhaustion over gigadrowse in terms of which spell gets to be a full playset.
There's no right answer for everyone. If your meta is all bogles and stuff, run exhaustion as a full set. If it's all UW control cut back on them.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
@necrosed I can see that this discussion will get very wordy & detailed pretty quickly. I'd like to assure you that the post I made was a precursor to a more full argument.
How to resolve this won't be clearcut. The best way would be to take a stacked deck from an opponent or two (same list, same card order in library, same opening hands e.g. a jund deck) then see how the play-patterns differ between a list running dictate vs a list running as foretold.
It would also do us both credit to compare whole 75-card lists rather than card for card discussions.
I think we could probably make that happen. I have all the cards for both lists and have been testing an as foretold version myself. So far, I've found the lack of any inherent cars draw or utility from as foretold to be tricky, and the need to topdeck a vision also tricky, whereas just having a single 'mine' in the stock version of the deck is usually enough to go off.
That's an observation from playing both versions. As you may have guessed this deck is my jam. No matter what other strategies I try, i always return to this deck to refresh my palette and build my mastery of the strategy.
I don't want to engage in a theorycrafted bias vs bias argument. Observations are fine but we need to balance those out with ones of equal merit. Your written response above includes a lot of hyperbolic narrative-generating qualifiers such as "out of nowhere" and "burying an opponent in card advantage" which while fun to use and priming people to agree with your viewpoint aren't good methods for proper statistical debate. I guess my point is that you don't need to convince me of anything with manipulative language. I already have the cards and love the deck. Preaching to the choir
We're on the same team and loving the same deck so let's work together. I genuinely think we could do some like-for-like testing and come to some constructive conclusions which improve everyone's understanding of the deck. I'm always eager to learn more and I'm sure you are too.
Pm me if you fancy setting up some kind of pseudo testing gauntlet or something. I'd love to get something more rigorous going and everyone will benefit.
Sure, I agree that we can move this discussion elsewhere. I like leaving the strong sides of both decks registered in the thread tough (instead of arguing "this one is strictly better", which is what it sounded like to me, specially the 'friends don't let' part).
The point that I want to make is that they're both good Time Warp decks. However, their playstyle is different and that may confuse some people.
On the subject of a gauntlet, I'm pretty sure the biggest winner of the unbannings is Burn. They have good matchups against both JTMS and BBE. If the meta turns out filled with aggro deck, perhaps the U/G Turbolands is a better approach, but I'm sure it deserves another thread entirely for the archetype.
What is your timezone, btw? I'm at GMT-3 and I have a somewhat busy schedule (defending my Master's in two weeks), so I'd rather start by uploading some videos and putting it here so everyone can join the discussion, but if you want to discuss on an instant-message basis/test in real time, I'd be delighted (just not sure if I would be that much available).
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I love Gigadrowse, and I was playing a 3/2 split Gigadrowse/Exhaustion before. To me, it's a meta call. Aggro decks? Exhastion. Grindy matchups? Gigadrowse.
EDIT: About the gameplay, would you guys rather have short videos on one matchup/another or a big, hour(s) long going through League/several matchups?
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I like both, but prefer short, 1 match videos. You can always put all 5 matches of a league in a playlist but much easier to digest in shorter 20-45 min videos.
Edit: I appreciate both sides of the Dictate/As Foretold debate. They are two different types/styles of deck though. Is there a hybrid lurking somewhere in there? I believe so, but not sure exactly what/where it is.
I do want to try both versions and try to land on a single "hybrid" that has JtMS, Search, As Foretold, Dictate, "the usual suspects" and probably AV.
I'm also thinking that with Jace, we probably want to prioritize Gigadrowse and Remand because the line could be (worst case on the draw):
T1: island, go
T2: island, go, on your upkeep giga your two lands
T3: island, either exhaustion or go
T4: land, Jace, maybe set up miracle
T5: miracle, land, dictate or as foretold or go..
You can probably see where I'm getting at, and it may have been mentioned in one of the 50+ comments since THE GREAT UNBANNING announcement, but we want 4x Gigadrowse in one style of the new deck.
Edit2: Just browsing MTGGoldfish and came upon a 5-0 deck list piloted by Klump (not sure if we've been graced with their presence in here yet). Here's the list:
They were clearly hedging against a burn meta and not affinity. Also probably expected something like choke or boil with the 2 different non-basic U sources. I feel like we will be seeing more of those hate cards along with Guttural Response
My time zone is GMT.
-3 is weird lol. Like.... Eastern Brazil?
My sense of how wide time zones are is a bit warped. I guess Mauritania could be a thing as well haha.
Anyway drop me a message. What's your masters in? Mine was in Art & Design (and then I went on to teach physics lol).
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Most of Brazil is GMT-3 (we're currently in daylight savings, but that ends this weekend), so GMT-2 right now, GMT-3 afterwards. My masters is in Vibration and Acoustics (major was Mechanical Engineering).
I'll send you a PM shortly.
TL;DW from the video: the lesson was that Exhaustion is great and I want four in the maindeck.
About the 5-0 league list:
Regardless of the "style", I'm a bit sad that it is a 4-of Jace list. I don't want Wizards to ban him
Guys, while PMing fluff I had the idea to setup a Discord server so we can discuss the deck and magic. I'm currently working on it, but the invite link is https://discord.gg/K6WnFzZ
Joined the discord. Nice list. I'm not sure about the lack of interaction but Tolaria West is great. Hadn't figured it into my assumptions earlier (not sure why?) and obviously that makes any version running as foretold generally better.
Grats on the 4-1 finish.
Looks like the discord is gonna be a great way to share ideas and tech so thanks for setting that up.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Having an As Foretold guarantees you win the resource war lategame. It gives you inevitability.
this is why as foretold is bad actually. there is no resource war late game. there is no opponent lategame at all. they stop playing turn 5 and if they get a chance to play a couple of other turns you out value them already and they will do nothing. early game dictates nets you more advantage in the correct timing than foretold, thus being bad in turns
So how do we feel about running Field of Ruin in turns?
Pretty good actually. I'd say one or two would be fine. Just make sure not to run too many colorless lands they have a real cost not enabling gigadrowse
Saw a list someone brewed up a while back and wondering what people's take on it is. Haven't tried it out, but just looking at it I'm not a fan of only 22 lands and the lack of main deck Gigadrowse. Also not sure we can get away with only 4 Mine effects without As Foretold to enable a faster Ancestral Visions. I do like the idea of having access to more counter magic though with the 4 Remands, 4 Cryptics and 4 Snapcasters.
We were arguing that 4 AVs in a Dictate might be better than Howling Mines. I think, however, that you should run a number of Gigadrowses. They're one of the best cards that Dictate version can run.
Don't you think 4 Snapcaster Mage is a bit too much? We generally run 2, with 3 in As Foretold versions because they're the wincon.
Hey everybody. I don't post a lot, typically just lurk but figured I would post this decklist that appeared in the Modern Challenge taking a spot in the Top 8. Enjoy!
This is Truckis123's (Marcus Ewaldh) list. He streamed yesterday the whole challenge. I think he mentioned in the discord server that he would be running Terminus maindeck instead of Exhaustion to free up sideboard spaces.
What these spaces will be in the SB, we don't know it yet, but certainly a number of Monastery Mentor.
Quite a few of us were watching a stream of the games.
It was interesting & highlighted a few things.
1) The pilot was good ;P
2) as foretold has issues as the basis for a card draw engine. Many times over the course of the event the pilot (with an asfo in play) had to blind-cast time warp spells in the hope of hitting a decent topdeck. It's too reliant on hitting ancestral vision to work consistently. There was far too much passing the turn back to the opponent over the course of the matches, and reliance on an opponent stumbling in their first couple of turns (notice that the engine requires a crazy amount of cantrips and so there's no interaction before 3 mana in that list. On the draw that gives your opponent four clear turns to win, and even then your third turn is either exhaustion-go or as foretold-go. Lucking into a third turn living end can happen but isn't consistent, only one copy)
3) asfo & ancestral vision are actually (despite point 2) the real deal, although the caveat here is that they pull the deck away from a turn-heavy combo deck more into a turn-light control deck. I think the ideal build going forward for an AF/AV build will just play temporal mastery as the turns and fill the rest of the deck with powerful interaction and ways to gain advantage from as foretold (spells you can cast during an opponent's turn)
I fully expect a temporal mastery miracles-turns hybrid to appear over the next few weeks, dropping much of the combo for a more control focused build. As it stands the lists presented so far have little or no early interaction at all.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I'm new to discord, and wondering what the purpose is to have everyone post there, rather than here? If you miss a few days worth of posts on there, you could have to scroll for a while to get caught up, correct? On here it's pretty easy to find where you were last. Maybe I'm completely a noob and need some education of the discord interface 😎
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Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
It's great as a time warp against decks that aim to leverage the first few turns hard. Aggro and midrange spring to mind. Eldrazi, bogles, big mana decks like tron or scapeshift. It's terrible against reactive decks that sit back holding up counterspells.
It comes down to your meta and what you're weak against. For the most part I'd err on the side of needing more tools against aggro. At the moment I'm valuing exhaustion over gigadrowse in terms of which spell gets to be a full playset.
There's no right answer for everyone. If your meta is all bogles and stuff, run exhaustion as a full set. If it's all UW control cut back on them.
How to resolve this won't be clearcut. The best way would be to take a stacked deck from an opponent or two (same list, same card order in library, same opening hands e.g. a jund deck) then see how the play-patterns differ between a list running dictate vs a list running as foretold.
It would also do us both credit to compare whole 75-card lists rather than card for card discussions.
I think we could probably make that happen. I have all the cards for both lists and have been testing an as foretold version myself. So far, I've found the lack of any inherent cars draw or utility from as foretold to be tricky, and the need to topdeck a vision also tricky, whereas just having a single 'mine' in the stock version of the deck is usually enough to go off.
That's an observation from playing both versions. As you may have guessed this deck is my jam. No matter what other strategies I try, i always return to this deck to refresh my palette and build my mastery of the strategy.
I don't want to engage in a theorycrafted bias vs bias argument. Observations are fine but we need to balance those out with ones of equal merit. Your written response above includes a lot of hyperbolic narrative-generating qualifiers such as "out of nowhere" and "burying an opponent in card advantage" which while fun to use and priming people to agree with your viewpoint aren't good methods for proper statistical debate. I guess my point is that you don't need to convince me of anything with manipulative language. I already have the cards and love the deck. Preaching to the choir
We're on the same team and loving the same deck so let's work together. I genuinely think we could do some like-for-like testing and come to some constructive conclusions which improve everyone's understanding of the deck. I'm always eager to learn more and I'm sure you are too.
Pm me if you fancy setting up some kind of pseudo testing gauntlet or something. I'd love to get something more rigorous going and everyone will benefit.
The point that I want to make is that they're both good Time Warp decks. However, their playstyle is different and that may confuse some people.
On the subject of a gauntlet, I'm pretty sure the biggest winner of the unbannings is Burn. They have good matchups against both JTMS and BBE. If the meta turns out filled with aggro deck, perhaps the U/G Turbolands is a better approach, but I'm sure it deserves another thread entirely for the archetype.
What is your timezone, btw? I'm at GMT-3 and I have a somewhat busy schedule (defending my Master's in two weeks), so I'd rather start by uploading some videos and putting it here so everyone can join the discussion, but if you want to discuss on an instant-message basis/test in real time, I'd be delighted (just not sure if I would be that much available).
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
EDIT: About the gameplay, would you guys rather have short videos on one matchup/another or a big, hour(s) long going through League/several matchups?
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
Edit: I appreciate both sides of the Dictate/As Foretold debate. They are two different types/styles of deck though. Is there a hybrid lurking somewhere in there? I believe so, but not sure exactly what/where it is.
I do want to try both versions and try to land on a single "hybrid" that has JtMS, Search, As Foretold, Dictate, "the usual suspects" and probably AV.
I'm also thinking that with Jace, we probably want to prioritize Gigadrowse and Remand because the line could be (worst case on the draw):
T1: island, go
T2: island, go, on your upkeep giga your two lands
T3: island, either exhaustion or go
T4: land, Jace, maybe set up miracle
T5: miracle, land, dictate or as foretold or go..
You can probably see where I'm getting at, and it may have been mentioned in one of the 50+ comments since THE GREAT UNBANNING announcement, but we want 4x Gigadrowse in one style of the new deck.
Edit2: Just browsing MTGGoldfish and came upon a 5-0 deck list piloted by Klump (not sure if we've been graced with their presence in here yet). Here's the list:
4x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Gigadrowse
4x Serum Visions
3x Remand
2x Exhaustion
2x Cryptic Command
4x Time Warp
2x Part the Waterveil
1x Walk the Aeons
4x Temporal Mastery
4x Dictate of Kruphix
19x Island
1x Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2x Radiant Fountain
3x Dispel
1x Gigadrowse
4x Dragon's Claw
1x Negate
1x Remand
1x Spreading Seas
3x Sun Droplet
1x Laboratory Maniac
They were clearly hedging against a burn meta and not affinity. Also probably expected something like choke or boil with the 2 different non-basic U sources. I feel like we will be seeing more of those hate cards along with Guttural Response
As Foretold Turns Experience.
And yes, I have an annoying voice. But hey, it's there. I'll play some more and thing I'll record a league of something.
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
-3 is weird lol. Like.... Eastern Brazil?
My sense of how wide time zones are is a bit warped. I guess Mauritania could be a thing as well haha.
Anyway drop me a message. What's your masters in? Mine was in Art & Design (and then I went on to teach physics lol).
I'll send you a PM shortly.
TL;DW from the video: the lesson was that Exhaustion is great and I want four in the maindeck.
About the 5-0 league list:
Regardless of the "style", I'm a bit sad that it is a 4-of Jace list. I don't want Wizards to ban him
Guys, while PMing fluff I had the idea to setup a Discord server so we can discuss the deck and magic. I'm currently working on it, but the invite link is https://discord.gg/K6WnFzZ
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
Grats on the 4-1 finish.
Looks like the discord is gonna be a great way to share ideas and tech so thanks for setting that up.
this is why as foretold is bad actually. there is no resource war late game. there is no opponent lategame at all. they stop playing turn 5 and if they get a chance to play a couple of other turns you out value them already and they will do nothing. early game dictates nets you more advantage in the correct timing than foretold, thus being bad in turns
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Yes, I am that guy.
Yes, I have had my nose broken before.
Pretty good actually. I'd say one or two would be fine. Just make sure not to run too many colorless lands they have a real cost not enabling gigadrowse
4 Snapcaster Mage
Countermagic
4 Remand
4 Cryptic Command
Set Up
4 Serum Visions
Card Draw
4 Dictate of Kruphix
4 Ancestral Visions
Turns and Sudo-Turns
4 Exhaustion
4 Time Warp
4 Temporal Mastery
2 Part the Waterveil
11 Islands
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2 Pyroclasm
2 Blood Moon
2 Sun Droplet
2 Spell Pierce
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Gigadrowse
2 Thing in the Ice
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Commander: Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim Clerics BW, Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest Voltron RWU
Don't you think 4 Snapcaster Mage is a bit too much? We generally run 2, with 3 in As Foretold versions because they're the wincon.
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature (3)
3 Snapcaster Mage
Sorcery (21)
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Day's Undoing
3 Exhaustion
1 Living End
4 Serum Visions
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Time Warp
Instant (6)
2 Cryptic Command
4 Opt
Enchantment (5)
4 As Foretold
1 Search for Azcanta
2 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
1 Gemstone Caverns
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tolaria West
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Disrupting Shoal
2 Spell Pierce
2 Stony Silence
4 Terminus
3 Timely Reinforcements
What these spaces will be in the SB, we don't know it yet, but certainly a number of Monastery Mentor.
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
It was interesting & highlighted a few things.
1) The pilot was good ;P
2) as foretold has issues as the basis for a card draw engine. Many times over the course of the event the pilot (with an asfo in play) had to blind-cast time warp spells in the hope of hitting a decent topdeck. It's too reliant on hitting ancestral vision to work consistently. There was far too much passing the turn back to the opponent over the course of the matches, and reliance on an opponent stumbling in their first couple of turns (notice that the engine requires a crazy amount of cantrips and so there's no interaction before 3 mana in that list. On the draw that gives your opponent four clear turns to win, and even then your third turn is either exhaustion-go or as foretold-go. Lucking into a third turn living end can happen but isn't consistent, only one copy)
3) asfo & ancestral vision are actually (despite point 2) the real deal, although the caveat here is that they pull the deck away from a turn-heavy combo deck more into a turn-light control deck. I think the ideal build going forward for an AF/AV build will just play temporal mastery as the turns and fill the rest of the deck with powerful interaction and ways to gain advantage from as foretold (spells you can cast during an opponent's turn)
I fully expect a temporal mastery miracles-turns hybrid to appear over the next few weeks, dropping much of the combo for a more control focused build. As it stands the lists presented so far have little or no early interaction at all.