I think CoCo is a bad choice for this deck. We can only get G from Mox Opal and I'd rather not rely on that. It also puts all noncreature cards on the bottom which means any Grapeshots, Noxious Revivals or SB card we might need, are gone for the rest of the game. Besides CoCo greatly increases our variance as it has a chance of completely fizzling whereas Outcome will always draw us cards if we have some permanents on the battlefield.
I tried an iteration of this green splash, but included Noble Hierarch for the extra ramp consistency into Collected Company. When it worked it was bonkers, but over-all the rate of success was lower than the standard U/W by a fair margin. You are just adding too many pieces that need to draw into your hand correctly.
For people trying to find a home for CoCo in a green shell, try my Commune list with one CoCo. Time of Need is also an option; it's reliable and cheap at the cost of Sorcery Speed and no potential for double-engine blowouts.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I have a question regarding 2nd copy of our engine. Let's say we play a Paladin on T2 with 2 lands in play and have another copy in our hand along with 2-3 cheeri0s. Do we play a cheeri0 or two straight away or do we wait another turn, play the second copy of Paladin and then start playing cheeri0s? Whats the correct sequence of plays?
I think I was too hasty today and wanted to combo off too fast especially when faced against decks with less removal. This led to situations where I had 1-2 engines on the board but no gas to trigger them.
If you are up against a deck with 4 or less interaction cards, always wait until turn 3. Your rate of fizzle will improve dramatically with the 2 engines. I haven't finished all of my sims yet, but you will fizzle at least 5 times as often if you try turn 2. If they are heavy on interaction then going for it T2 can be the better play as you will draw into more gas, replacement engines, dig, or sideboard tech. That's why I prefer to splash black for the discard. Knowing their hand answers this question for you more often than not.
Round 1: Free Win Red
Guy has no clue what I’m on and goes turn one Chalice on one. He sees Sram and 2 equipment, then deploys Chalice on 0 and Blood Moon. Since I’m running Caverns, this hurts and I die.
Rise and repeat for the most part. He sees Mentor and casually casts Anger of the Gods.
Round 2: Blue Black Mill
Maindeck Emrakul gets milled and he can’t stop the shuffle. Combo kill on turn 4.
Game 2, turn 2 win.
Round 3: Blue White Control
On turn 2 he had Blue White up, so I casually played a Cavern naming Dwarf, stick Sram, and make my own confused face when I find out he doesn’t have the Path. Turns out he’s on the enchantment removal get there plan. He takes the Sram, and then dies to the following Paladin.
Game two, I go for the cheese. We play draw go for a while, and after I’ve had enough lands, I deploy the Sram and stuffs. He exiles it, or rather tries to, when I Outcome the Sram and rest of my toys for a brand new hand. At this moment, I want to Emrakul him, and he Disallows the extra turn trigger. So I go for Grapeshot, which he responds with Safe Passage. After putting all the equipment on Spaghetti, he proceeds to not find an answer and scoops.
Round 4: Dredge
He starts the dredge chain decently fast, with a Narcomeba, Bloodghast, and Amalgam at decent speeds. However, he ends up tapping out, which meant me drawing the deck and winning.
Game 2 he gets to 2 lands with no dredgers in his yard. I have the kill, but play patient since he won’t tap down. I decent to bait a spell with Riddlesmith, and it dies to Abrupt Decay. Due to discarding to hand size, he ended up with a Loam in his yard, which mills 3 fetch lands. He decided to cast the loam to get his lands and fetch for a basic forest, which game me the chance to cast Paladin, and then a second as I drew up to the Grapeshot.
Round 5: ID into top 8
Round 6: Quarterfinals: White Weenie
I rode with this guy, and gave him a ton of ***** for playing Student of Warfare and Figure of Destiny with only 2 Path to Exile in the 75. However, Canonist is annoying. Mainboard. 4 of. Doesn’t stop us cold, but does a decent enough job. I deploy Sram and 2 Paladins with no equipment across from his Student of Warfares and Canonist. I finally find a Shield, draw into a mentor, then another Mentor, and make a HUGE army. He dies to said army.
Game 2 the first Canonist eats a Fragmentize, and then he watches me play a lot of magic on turn 3.
Round 7: Semifinals: Free Win Red
I thought my tournament life was over since I was on the draw and he knew what I was on. Turn one Chalice on 0. Turn 2 he went for Blood Moon, which I Swan Songed. I then played Mentor and made a dude. His turn consisted of land, Koth, minus 2 Koth, Chandra, plus Chandra, attack with bird. Mine consisted of Sram, chaining equipment spells (don’t care if they get countered cause I still get prowess and cards), made a small army to kill Chandra and Koth, and looked at him with his one card in hand to see if he had it. He started making blockers in Simian Spirit Guides and Magus of the Moon, which was cool until Sigil for 5 meant it didn’t matter.
Game two he mulligans into a Chalice for 0 hand. I use a Cavern to cast Engineered Explosives for 0 (CMC 1 on the stack, 0 counters in play due to lack of color. Technology) Turns out I didn’t need it, as Fragmentize came to my aid and an army brewed forth from the the Mentor.
Round 8: Finals: Eldrazi Tron
This guy was not happy. He opened on 2 different tron lands and his third land was eldrazi temple into…. Expedition Map. He died on my 3rd turn.
Game 2 he mulligans into a Chalice for 0. Turn 2 Fragmentize into Sram. Cast one equipment before he died to Dismember. Mentor the following turn also died to Dismember, but I still had the dude. Prowess plus Grapeshot got him to 0.
To answer questions regarding card choices;
Mentor makes an army. Sometimes, well, a good bit of the time, you need an army.
Outcome is the bees knees. I doubted it at first, but the Statuary makes it super easy to cast. It also allows us to play a longer game, which helps.
Emrakul was originally cheese, but the more I played it, the more I liked it. I only like having one grapeshot main and will move one more to the board, but this lets us use the Grapeshot early if needed and still give us a way to win. Also, if you have a better answer to Angel’s Grace besides “take another turn after this one” let me know.
Cavern resulted if different choices than the norm. I am not a fan of the Serum Visions personally, because while it lets us scry, it doesn’t do much else. Hiding Paladins from discard is fine, but it won’t save them from counters or removal, and if you are geared to play the game and win fast, then I feel you need to be more prepared to mulligan than anything else. While this deck has the ability to win super fast, I didn’t go for the turn 2 kill very often unless it fell into my lap. The vast majority of my games went to turns 5, 6, and 7, which breaks the conventions of this forum of killing people as fast as possible. Also, Cavern allows me to play EE in the board for opposing Chalice and EE without fear, as I can get it past Chalice for 0.
Riddlesmith and Laboratory Maniac allow for wins against infinite life with both infinite storm (discard spaghetti) or just maniac them. I brought in the Riddlesmith a good bit, as a 9th paladin is a 9th paladin, regardless of how bad it may be.
Spellskite eats removal, lets be real. I personally did not like this card because you just pick it up with Retract, but then I changed the way I thought about the game while playing. If I am not trying to kill people on turns 2 and 3 as often, then having the 0/4 that protects me incremental advantage is fine.
At the end of the day, the deck is going to be able to kill people on turns 2 and 3. My personal take is to jam turn one Paladin if you can, because if you aren’t going to win turn 2, at least make them have the removal spell right there on turn one. Be prepared to play a long game. We can all agree that this deck is fast, and that’s mostly what we focus on is how fast the game ends. But what have we gotten out of that? A fragile combo that dies to removal. Take the extra turns to set up and get a feel for what your opponent is doing, and be ready to play a longer game of magic. If you need to race, do it games 2 and 3 where most players will over-sideboard and beat themselves. Go for the kills if you can on turns 2 and 3, but if it’s not there, don’t force it. At least, that’s how I’ve been playing the deck.
Summoner's Pact only searches for Green creatures.
Paradoxical Outcome is really, really good. CoCo digs 6 deep for an engine, and if it misses it does nothing. Outcome draws 4+ cards with no upper limit. An end of turn Outcome allows you to overwhelm removal-heavy hands with sheer value and even Storm out without an engine.
Whoops, I'm so used to green creature combos I totally forgot.
I do think that Time of Need could be a big help. First just with overall consistency. Here's the math assuming that you mulligan any hand that does not have one of Sram, Paladin, or Time of Need:
Mulligan from 7 to 6:
8 hits: 35% mulligans
10 hits: 26% mulligans
12 hits: 19% mulligans
Mulligan from 6 to 5:
8 hits: 41% mulligans
10 hits: 32% mulligans
12 hits: 25% mulligans
Mulligans to 5 as a percentage of total hands:
8 hits: 14%
10 hits: 8%
12 hits: 4%
I tried a quick test of Bant-0s and it feels smooth so far:
I did 10 goldfish runs on modo. Result: 7 keeps, 3 mulls to 6, no mulls to 5. One turn 2 kill, one turn 4 kill, eight turn 3 kills. The Time of Need lets you dodge those awkward "cast Serum Visions and then do nothing" situations. I'll try and run some leagues at some point and test resiliency. Adding more virtual copies of the key combo piece feels like it ought to help handle disruption.
Possible tweaks: removing one or two Hurkyl's Recall and one or two equipment for more resiliency. Depends on how you weight the likelihood of losing due to fizzling against losing due to disruption. It also might be right to pull the two SSGs for a fetchland. I like the monkeys because (1) they can help you slam a turn 1 sram or time of need and (2) they protect against some forms of fizzling (mostly dropping Sram mid-combo, casting Hurkyl's recall, and providing red mana through stony silence).
Maybe it's time for me to do a write up when I won the tournament during the yearly gameconvention CalCon. We were 29 players. This was the 25/2 but finally got to write it.
R1 1-0 Bant eldrazi 2-1
She didn't really know what cheerios did. T1 temple, eldrazi mimic, t2 TKS exiling one of my engines, t3 smasher, win. I didn't draw engine after she pathed sram on my t2. Won g2 easy with 2 engines and g3 she tks but had 2 engines so went of w one
R2 1-1 Mill 0-2
Felt like a bad matchup. T1 fetch, hallow. Serum. He has in response 2 archive traps, so no use with scry both on top... then he paths my t2 sram, continues to exile another one with ashiok. G2 he got one archive trap after I fetched, surgicals all sram, ashiok again my paladin and then mills my last creatures so cant win. Feelsbadman, a matchup I think we can be favored in but still the thought almost mulling ourselves and they just play millinstant would end us
R3 2-1 Naya small zoo 2-0
Knew he was playing zoo since mill opp told me. Opp tapped out g1 with creatures so easy for me to go off t3. G2 I figured he would play more defensive with lands up so waited till t4 play both puresteel in hand, sudden shock one, he had no more answers so could go off with one puresteel.
R4 3-1 Naya burn 2-0
This guys taps out and I play puresteel t2 and wins. G2 guys gets aggressive and quite careless hurling lava spike, rift bolt and 2 bolts end step to my face going down to 4. (Stupid trying to race me since we can out of nowhere win so better to keep bolts for engines) Anyway he had one land untapped and one card in hand when passing the turn to me, I played puresteel and did want to play my sram but I couldn't risk using fetch to be able to play sram, or nox to get back a retract if the combo would fizzle - out of fear for a third bolt. I played my cheerios and luck was with me, or maybe because I waited til t4 with a loaded hand. He showed my he had Boros charm in hand so I would lost if I passed the turn.
So a lot of players decided to tie into top8 but I needed to play to be able to secure my place.
R5 4-1 Jeskai control 2-0
G1 if I recall correctly I didn't show him any sram until he was tapped out. G2 no lands but engines and sram on 6, foundry on top. After some turns I'm 3 lands and decided to GS his clique when it had swung 2 times already, figuring I would lose to it otherwise, played a cheerio and GS for 2, since he would just counter a lone GS, which he told me was not worth countering 2 GS for just that. Then it was counter war over silence on my main since my hand was loaded for the win. I play silence, he helix me, spell queller silence, I play second silence, he snaps helix (didn't play swan song on flashed helix - but should in hindsight) I was down to 1 life but could win anyway, after opponent saw me drew into 2/3 of my deck he conceded, I explained I just needed to find grapeshot (or rather use mox for nox and then cast GS)
I did not only made it into top8 but placed me second top at 12 points.
Top 8
Quarterfinals Abzan counters 2-1
Won g1 since he had not much interaction just playing his dudes. I lost g2 to beatdown to hangarback, E1 and walking ballista not finding my engines, I needed to mull down to 4 with serum if I recall. G3 thoughtseized two times, but he took the cheerios instead of two engines in hand (third was already on bf) guess he thought he could remove my cheerios but I don't think he realized how often we will draw a cheerio. I played my two engines and waited to topdeck a cheerio since I would only need one due to three engines, and it didn't take many turns.
Semifinals Affinity 2-1
Won t3 on the play. He won t3 with me at 13 life topdecking a second cranial plating, jikes, really got me by surprise! I could instead of playing engine t2 held up mana for hurkyl in my hand, but thought chances he winning the next turn was pretty slim. G3 I win turn 4 I think since we both mull and he has a slower hand
Finals Valakut breach 2-1
Win g1 easy. G2 he topdecks chalice t2 at 0...I tried to go off with sram t2 but failed to find any artifact bounce. No answer in hand on I just equipp sram and hit for some damge, some turns later I lose to breach Emrakul, not even 2/13 sram with reach can stop Emrakul's annihilator so I just scoop. G3 he topdecks again chalice but with sram in play I figure I could play my cheerios to get the cast trigger even if countered to drawn an answer (or more cheerios to eventually find it) so I drew into echoing truth and had really good hand w 3 cheerios, sram, echoing truth and topdecked a retract, he was tapped out and I played echo which allowed me to start the storm. Tight on mana I couldn't play puresteel I drawn after retract and a hurkyl, but did succeed to go off. Kinda funny since I went down to 3 last cards and knew gs should be there, unless...yeah it was in one of my several hands, I usually lay down cards not needed atm. He told me he would won next turn with scapeshift otherwise.
Man I'm glad I really choose this "glas-cannon deck" (as other referenced it as) for this tournament! I entered with the mindset that I was playing to win! I didn't need to mulligan as low but was never afraid too do so aggressively to find the engines. I believe the sideboard is quite solid, unsure over Geist of Saint Traft and Ghirapur Aether Grid, just took them in for one or two matches (but never saw them). Choosing Hurkyl's Recall over Paradoxical Outcome in the main was really the right call! Rather have a 5th Retract and to use against affinity and chalice is truly great. Plus 4 mana for outcome was a bit of a stretch I felt when goldfishing. I thought long and hard if the Leyline's was right for this deck, but when another member confirmed my suspicions it was too hard both mull for engine and leyline the choice was clear for me.
Summoner's Pact only searches for Green creatures.
Paradoxical Outcome is really, really good. CoCo digs 6 deep for an engine, and if it misses it does nothing. Outcome draws 4+ cards with no upper limit. An end of turn Outcome allows you to overwhelm removal-heavy hands with sheer value and even Storm out without an engine.
Whoops, I'm so used to green creature combos I totally forgot.
I do think that Time of Need could be a big help. First just with overall consistency. Here's the math assuming that you mulligan any hand that does not have one of Sram, Paladin, or Time of Need:
Mulligan from 7 to 6:
8 hits: 35% mulligans
10 hits: 26% mulligans
12 hits: 19% mulligans
Mulligan from 6 to 5:
8 hits: 41% mulligans
10 hits: 32% mulligans
12 hits: 25% mulligans
Mulligans to 5 as a percentage of total hands:
8 hits: 14%
10 hits: 8%
12 hits: 4%
I tried a quick test of Bant-0s and it feels smooth so far:
I did 10 goldfish runs on modo. Result: 7 keeps, 3 mulls to 6, no mulls to 5. One turn 2 kill, one turn 4 kill, eight turn 3 kills. The Time of Need lets you dodge those awkward "cast Serum Visions and then do nothing" situations. I'll try and run some leagues at some point and test resiliency. Adding more virtual copies of the key combo piece feels like it ought to help handle disruption.
Possible tweaks: removing one or two Hurkyl's Recall and one or two equipment for more resiliency. Depends on how you weight the likelihood of losing due to fizzling against losing due to disruption. It also might be right to pull the two SSGs for a fetchland. I like the monkeys because (1) they can help you slam a turn 1 sram or time of need and (2) they protect against some forms of fizzling (mostly dropping Sram mid-combo, casting Hurkyl's recall, and providing red mana through stony silence).
Just curious, why aren't you running any copies of Rugged Prairie? Almost every list that I've seen play SSG also runs the prairies for a shot at the T1 win.
Rugged Prairie is a victim of going three colors. As is it's still a little sketchy to run only 10 lands that can get you green mana, although the mox opal and paradise mantle help in a pinch. Going with just 6 or 7 would be way too inconsistent. The SSG still works as combo smoothing and occasional quick mana.
First league experience was 3-2. Losses were to DS Jund and burn. The DS Jund match coincided with one of my weaker hands and was the usual miserable experience. I do think I will drop leylines from the sideboard against them since it's such an awful topdeck. I think some number of Postmortem Lunge will be much better against them. The other loss was to a burn deck that got me with a turn two Eidolon game one and two Eidolons + skullcrack backup (neutralizing forge tender) game three.
The deck felt much more consistent in general. A smidge slower than the all in version I had been running but I was happy to say goodbye to the ~15% chance of just losing to myself.
Is there anything we can play maindeck so that we aren't stone dead to a game one Eidolon that doesn't weaken the combo too badly? It's very frustrating when it happens.
Rugged Prairie is a victim of going three colors. As is it's still a little sketchy to run only 10 lands that can get you green mana, although the mox opal and paradise mantle help in a pinch. Going with just 6 or 7 would be way too inconsistent. The SSG still works as combo smoothing and occasional quick mana.
First league experience was 3-2. Losses were to DS Jund and burn. The DS Jund match coincided with one of my weaker hands and was the usual miserable experience. I do think I will drop leylines from the sideboard against them since it's such an awful topdeck. I think some number of Postmortem Lunge will be much better against them. The other loss was to a burn deck that got me with a turn two Eidolon game one and two Eidolons + skullcrack backup (neutralizing forge tender) game three.
The deck felt much more consistent in general. A smidge slower than the all in version I had been running but I was happy to say goodbye to the ~15% chance of just losing to myself.
Is there anything we can play maindeck so that we aren't stone dead to a game one Eidolon that doesn't weaken the combo too badly? It's very frustrating when it happens.
If you slide in Echoing Truth it can get rid of nearly anything annoying on the board and can also help bounce a couple of Cheeri0s if you have nothing troubling you.
Echoing Truth is great out of the side but I hate to put it in the maindeck where it will be fairly useless against decks that don't run permanent based hate. Maybe the existence of Eidolon is a good reason to run Swan Song over Pact.
Another thought on the tutor front: a Gifts Ungiven package of Sram, Paladin, Postmortem Lunge, and a Pact of Negation/Swan Song/Noxious Revival means that your opponent will need two interactive spells to stop you going off when you untap.
ETA: Initial testing suggests that Gifts Ungiven is legit. If you have a hand full of equipment you can go with Sram, Paladin, Lunge, and Noxious Revival at opponent's end of turn. If they're tapped out you can pretty much win on the spot. If you've had a mini-combo fizzle with a couple guys in play you can reload with a four equipment gifts and roll from there. It's relatively expensive but I find when I fail to combo it's usually due to a mana flood which makes the Gifts a welcome draw.
The manabase is set up to maximize the chances of getting a guy down on turn one with the 4 SSGs and the 4 Rugged Prairies. This does open you up to some awkward hands (2 rugged prairie as your only land is no fun). Swapping the prairies out for fetch lands and/or fast lands might be right. I just really like the ability to force the opponent to have something or die.
Note that the SSGs also let you fire off an early gifts. In sideboarding I usually pull one or two SSG and one or two pieces of equipment.
jacobk I like the Gifts idea a lot, but I would suggest a pile of Paladin, Sram, Noxious, and then either Retract or Swan Song depending on how much safety you need.
Edit: Someone test a list with 5 Outcome/Gifts starting with 4 Gifts 1 Outcome.
I started from the more aggressive list. I like the SSG for the chance to spike a t1 guy or to cast a gifts early. Multiple SSGs can allow for gifts during the combo turn. If you wanted to play for more consistency I would replace the prairies with fetch/fast lands and some number of SSG with your redundancy spell of choice (Pact/Swan Song/Serum Visions).
The manabase is set up to maximize the chances of getting a guy down on turn one with the 4 SSGs and the 4 Rugged Prairies. This does open you up to some awkward hands (2 rugged prairie as your only land is no fun). Swapping the prairies out for fetch lands and/or fast lands might be right. I just really like the ability to force the opponent to have something or die on turn two.
First league run was 3-2. Lost to a white weenie deck that had t2 Thalia both games (with Brave the Elements backup game two). Also lost to a Delver deck though it felt less helpless than usual. Beat Bant Eldrazi (gifts was great), Affinity (same old same old) and some kind of GB creature combo deck. In sideboarding I usually pull one or two SSG and one or two pieces of equipment.
Standard gifts pile is Sram, Paladin, Postmortem Lunge, Noxious Revival or equipment, equipment, equipment, equipment, depending on the situation.
Rugged Prairie is a victim of going three colors. As is it's still a little sketchy to run only 10 lands that can get you green mana, although the mox opal and paradise mantle help in a pinch. Going with just 6 or 7 would be way too inconsistent. The SSG still works as combo smoothing and occasional quick mana.
First league experience was 3-2. Losses were to DS Jund and burn. The DS Jund match coincided with one of my weaker hands and was the usual miserable experience. I do think I will drop leylines from the sideboard against them since it's such an awful topdeck. I think some number of Postmortem Lunge will be much better against them. The other loss was to a burn deck that got me with a turn two Eidolon game one and two Eidolons + skullcrack backup (neutralizing forge tender) game three.
The deck felt much more consistent in general. A smidge slower than the all in version I had been running but I was happy to say goodbye to the ~15% chance of just losing to myself.
Is there anything we can play maindeck so that we aren't stone dead to a game one Eidolon that doesn't weaken the combo too badly? It's very frustrating when it happens.
Eidolon has always been a thorn in my ass regardless of what deck I'm piloting. My favorite way to deal with it is when I'm on Bogles and I slap it with a Spirit Link; if my opponent has any creature/enchant removal, they almost always use it on their own Eidolon. I'm not sure how well this would fare in Cheeri0s as it seems like an irrelevant card in any other matchup. However for what it's worth, it does trigger draw off Sram...
Played a small tourney yesterday and finished 3rd. Could've won it if I had more experience sideboarding and knowing the meta.
R1 vs Ad Nauseam, Win 2-0: I was faster than him and post sideboard I had the answers. He used discard but it wasn't enough since I had 2 engines in hand.
R2 vs Past in Flames Combo, Win 1-0: On G1 he started to combo first and cast Grapeshot at me for 13 (dont know why he did it that early), putting me down to 4. He then continues to combo, and uses flashback on the Grapeshot, to which I respond by casting Faith's Shield with fateful hour on. Yeah, it took him a couple minutes to figure it out and I just burst into laughter. Next turn it was my turn to combo.
Since G1 took quite some time, we went to time on G2. He had killed all my engines so I was just holding on to a Echoing Truth to disrupt his combo. He failed to combo so I won.
R3 vs Elves, Lose 1-2: On game one I combo him on turn 3. After that I messed up while sideboarding and making bad plays with Path to Exile. Should've left Paradoxical Outcome in the sideboard as it was just too slow against him.
R4 vs G/W Tron, Win 2-0: This is the match where Paradoxical Outcome really shined, as sometimes he would kill my engines but I'd still manage to combo off by drawing 4-8 cards off of Outcome. Tron doesn't kill you fast so you can kinda take your time.
Finished third as 2 players on 9 points decided to ID on the last round.
I tried an iteration of this green splash, but included Noble Hierarch for the extra ramp consistency into Collected Company. When it worked it was bonkers, but over-all the rate of success was lower than the standard U/W by a fair margin. You are just adding too many pieces that need to draw into your hand correctly.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
If you are up against a deck with 4 or less interaction cards, always wait until turn 3. Your rate of fizzle will improve dramatically with the 2 engines. I haven't finished all of my sims yet, but you will fizzle at least 5 times as often if you try turn 2. If they are heavy on interaction then going for it T2 can be the better play as you will draw into more gas, replacement engines, dig, or sideboard tech. That's why I prefer to splash black for the discard. Knowing their hand answers this question for you more often than not.
List:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Plains
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Retract
4 Mox Opal
2 Paradoxical Outcome
2 Swan Song
1 Noxious Revival
1 Inspiring Statuary
1 Grapeshot
19 Equipment
Sideboard:
2 Fragmentize
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Riddlesmith
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid
1 Laboratory Maniac
2 Paradoxical Outcome
2 Spellskite
2 Gut Shot
2 Silence
Round 1: Free Win Red
Guy has no clue what I’m on and goes turn one Chalice on one. He sees Sram and 2 equipment, then deploys Chalice on 0 and Blood Moon. Since I’m running Caverns, this hurts and I die.
Rise and repeat for the most part. He sees Mentor and casually casts Anger of the Gods.
Round 2: Blue Black Mill
Maindeck Emrakul gets milled and he can’t stop the shuffle. Combo kill on turn 4.
Game 2, turn 2 win.
Round 3: Blue White Control
On turn 2 he had Blue White up, so I casually played a Cavern naming Dwarf, stick Sram, and make my own confused face when I find out he doesn’t have the Path. Turns out he’s on the enchantment removal get there plan. He takes the Sram, and then dies to the following Paladin.
Game two, I go for the cheese. We play draw go for a while, and after I’ve had enough lands, I deploy the Sram and stuffs. He exiles it, or rather tries to, when I Outcome the Sram and rest of my toys for a brand new hand. At this moment, I want to Emrakul him, and he Disallows the extra turn trigger. So I go for Grapeshot, which he responds with Safe Passage. After putting all the equipment on Spaghetti, he proceeds to not find an answer and scoops.
Round 4: Dredge
He starts the dredge chain decently fast, with a Narcomeba, Bloodghast, and Amalgam at decent speeds. However, he ends up tapping out, which meant me drawing the deck and winning.
Game 2 he gets to 2 lands with no dredgers in his yard. I have the kill, but play patient since he won’t tap down. I decent to bait a spell with Riddlesmith, and it dies to Abrupt Decay. Due to discarding to hand size, he ended up with a Loam in his yard, which mills 3 fetch lands. He decided to cast the loam to get his lands and fetch for a basic forest, which game me the chance to cast Paladin, and then a second as I drew up to the Grapeshot.
Round 5: ID into top 8
Round 6: Quarterfinals: White Weenie
I rode with this guy, and gave him a ton of ***** for playing Student of Warfare and Figure of Destiny with only 2 Path to Exile in the 75. However, Canonist is annoying. Mainboard. 4 of. Doesn’t stop us cold, but does a decent enough job. I deploy Sram and 2 Paladins with no equipment across from his Student of Warfares and Canonist. I finally find a Shield, draw into a mentor, then another Mentor, and make a HUGE army. He dies to said army.
Game 2 the first Canonist eats a Fragmentize, and then he watches me play a lot of magic on turn 3.
Round 7: Semifinals: Free Win Red
I thought my tournament life was over since I was on the draw and he knew what I was on. Turn one Chalice on 0. Turn 2 he went for Blood Moon, which I Swan Songed. I then played Mentor and made a dude. His turn consisted of land, Koth, minus 2 Koth, Chandra, plus Chandra, attack with bird. Mine consisted of Sram, chaining equipment spells (don’t care if they get countered cause I still get prowess and cards), made a small army to kill Chandra and Koth, and looked at him with his one card in hand to see if he had it. He started making blockers in Simian Spirit Guides and Magus of the Moon, which was cool until Sigil for 5 meant it didn’t matter.
Game two he mulligans into a Chalice for 0 hand. I use a Cavern to cast Engineered Explosives for 0 (CMC 1 on the stack, 0 counters in play due to lack of color. Technology) Turns out I didn’t need it, as Fragmentize came to my aid and an army brewed forth from the the Mentor.
Round 8: Finals: Eldrazi Tron
This guy was not happy. He opened on 2 different tron lands and his third land was eldrazi temple into…. Expedition Map. He died on my 3rd turn.
Game 2 he mulligans into a Chalice for 0. Turn 2 Fragmentize into Sram. Cast one equipment before he died to Dismember. Mentor the following turn also died to Dismember, but I still had the dude. Prowess plus Grapeshot got him to 0.
To answer questions regarding card choices;
Mentor makes an army. Sometimes, well, a good bit of the time, you need an army.
Outcome is the bees knees. I doubted it at first, but the Statuary makes it super easy to cast. It also allows us to play a longer game, which helps.
Emrakul was originally cheese, but the more I played it, the more I liked it. I only like having one grapeshot main and will move one more to the board, but this lets us use the Grapeshot early if needed and still give us a way to win. Also, if you have a better answer to Angel’s Grace besides “take another turn after this one” let me know.
Cavern resulted if different choices than the norm. I am not a fan of the Serum Visions personally, because while it lets us scry, it doesn’t do much else. Hiding Paladins from discard is fine, but it won’t save them from counters or removal, and if you are geared to play the game and win fast, then I feel you need to be more prepared to mulligan than anything else. While this deck has the ability to win super fast, I didn’t go for the turn 2 kill very often unless it fell into my lap. The vast majority of my games went to turns 5, 6, and 7, which breaks the conventions of this forum of killing people as fast as possible. Also, Cavern allows me to play EE in the board for opposing Chalice and EE without fear, as I can get it past Chalice for 0.
Riddlesmith and Laboratory Maniac allow for wins against infinite life with both infinite storm (discard spaghetti) or just maniac them. I brought in the Riddlesmith a good bit, as a 9th paladin is a 9th paladin, regardless of how bad it may be.
Spellskite eats removal, lets be real. I personally did not like this card because you just pick it up with Retract, but then I changed the way I thought about the game while playing. If I am not trying to kill people on turns 2 and 3 as often, then having the 0/4 that protects me incremental advantage is fine.
At the end of the day, the deck is going to be able to kill people on turns 2 and 3. My personal take is to jam turn one Paladin if you can, because if you aren’t going to win turn 2, at least make them have the removal spell right there on turn one. Be prepared to play a long game. We can all agree that this deck is fast, and that’s mostly what we focus on is how fast the game ends. But what have we gotten out of that? A fragile combo that dies to removal. Take the extra turns to set up and get a feel for what your opponent is doing, and be ready to play a longer game of magic. If you need to race, do it games 2 and 3 where most players will over-sideboard and beat themselves. Go for the kills if you can on turns 2 and 3, but if it’s not there, don’t force it. At least, that’s how I’ve been playing the deck.
You have 55 cards main, did you miss 4 Mox Opal and 1 Grapeshot?
Whoops, I'm so used to green creature combos I totally forgot.
I do think that Time of Need could be a big help. First just with overall consistency. Here's the math assuming that you mulligan any hand that does not have one of Sram, Paladin, or Time of Need:
Mulligan from 7 to 6:
8 hits: 35% mulligans
10 hits: 26% mulligans
12 hits: 19% mulligans
Mulligan from 6 to 5:
8 hits: 41% mulligans
10 hits: 32% mulligans
12 hits: 25% mulligans
Mulligans to 5 as a percentage of total hands:
8 hits: 14%
10 hits: 8%
12 hits: 4%
I tried a quick test of Bant-0s and it feels smooth so far:
4 Marsh Flats
2 Temple Garden
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Mox Opal
4 Bone Saw
4 Cathar's Shield
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Retract
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Noxious Revival
1 Grapeshot
2 Pact of Negation
4 Puresteel Paladin
2 Time of Need
I did 10 goldfish runs on modo. Result: 7 keeps, 3 mulls to 6, no mulls to 5. One turn 2 kill, one turn 4 kill, eight turn 3 kills. The Time of Need lets you dodge those awkward "cast Serum Visions and then do nothing" situations. I'll try and run some leagues at some point and test resiliency. Adding more virtual copies of the key combo piece feels like it ought to help handle disruption.
Possible tweaks: removing one or two Hurkyl's Recall and one or two equipment for more resiliency. Depends on how you weight the likelihood of losing due to fizzling against losing due to disruption. It also might be right to pull the two SSGs for a fetchland. I like the monkeys because (1) they can help you slam a turn 1 sram or time of need and (2) they protect against some forms of fizzling (mostly dropping Sram mid-combo, casting Hurkyl's recall, and providing red mana through stony silence).
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Plains
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Cathar's Shield
2 Bone Saw
2 Sigil of Distinction
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Paradise Mantle
1 Grapeshot
4 Retract
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Swan Song
2 Noxious Revival
3 Serum Visions
3 Echoing Truth
1 Fragmentize
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid
3 Paradoxical Outcome
2 Path to Exile
4 Silence
R1 1-0
Bant eldrazi 2-1
She didn't really know what cheerios did. T1 temple, eldrazi mimic, t2 TKS exiling one of my engines, t3 smasher, win. I didn't draw engine after she pathed sram on my t2. Won g2 easy with 2 engines and g3 she tks but had 2 engines so went of w one
R2 1-1
Mill 0-2
Felt like a bad matchup. T1 fetch, hallow. Serum. He has in response 2 archive traps, so no use with scry both on top... then he paths my t2 sram, continues to exile another one with ashiok. G2 he got one archive trap after I fetched, surgicals all sram, ashiok again my paladin and then mills my last creatures so cant win. Feelsbadman, a matchup I think we can be favored in but still the thought almost mulling ourselves and they just play millinstant would end us
R3 2-1
Naya small zoo 2-0
Knew he was playing zoo since mill opp told me. Opp tapped out g1 with creatures so easy for me to go off t3. G2 I figured he would play more defensive with lands up so waited till t4 play both puresteel in hand, sudden shock one, he had no more answers so could go off with one puresteel.
R4 3-1
Naya burn 2-0
This guys taps out and I play puresteel t2 and wins. G2 guys gets aggressive and quite careless hurling lava spike, rift bolt and 2 bolts end step to my face going down to 4. (Stupid trying to race me since we can out of nowhere win so better to keep bolts for engines) Anyway he had one land untapped and one card in hand when passing the turn to me, I played puresteel and did want to play my sram but I couldn't risk using fetch to be able to play sram, or nox to get back a retract if the combo would fizzle - out of fear for a third bolt. I played my cheerios and luck was with me, or maybe because I waited til t4 with a loaded hand. He showed my he had Boros charm in hand so I would lost if I passed the turn.
So a lot of players decided to tie into top8 but I needed to play to be able to secure my place.
R5 4-1
Jeskai control 2-0
G1 if I recall correctly I didn't show him any sram until he was tapped out. G2 no lands but engines and sram on 6, foundry on top. After some turns I'm 3 lands and decided to GS his clique when it had swung 2 times already, figuring I would lose to it otherwise, played a cheerio and GS for 2, since he would just counter a lone GS, which he told me was not worth countering 2 GS for just that. Then it was counter war over silence on my main since my hand was loaded for the win. I play silence, he helix me, spell queller silence, I play second silence, he snaps helix (didn't play swan song on flashed helix - but should in hindsight) I was down to 1 life but could win anyway, after opponent saw me drew into 2/3 of my deck he conceded, I explained I just needed to find grapeshot (or rather use mox for nox and then cast GS)
I did not only made it into top8 but placed me second top at 12 points.
Top 8
Quarterfinals
Abzan counters 2-1
Won g1 since he had not much interaction just playing his dudes. I lost g2 to beatdown to hangarback, E1 and walking ballista not finding my engines, I needed to mull down to 4 with serum if I recall. G3 thoughtseized two times, but he took the cheerios instead of two engines in hand (third was already on bf) guess he thought he could remove my cheerios but I don't think he realized how often we will draw a cheerio. I played my two engines and waited to topdeck a cheerio since I would only need one due to three engines, and it didn't take many turns.
Semifinals
Affinity 2-1
Won t3 on the play. He won t3 with me at 13 life topdecking a second cranial plating, jikes, really got me by surprise! I could instead of playing engine t2 held up mana for hurkyl in my hand, but thought chances he winning the next turn was pretty slim. G3 I win turn 4 I think since we both mull and he has a slower hand
Finals
Valakut breach 2-1
Win g1 easy. G2 he topdecks chalice t2 at 0...I tried to go off with sram t2 but failed to find any artifact bounce. No answer in hand on I just equipp sram and hit for some damge, some turns later I lose to breach Emrakul, not even 2/13 sram with reach can stop Emrakul's annihilator so I just scoop. G3 he topdecks again chalice but with sram in play I figure I could play my cheerios to get the cast trigger even if countered to drawn an answer (or more cheerios to eventually find it) so I drew into echoing truth and had really good hand w 3 cheerios, sram, echoing truth and topdecked a retract, he was tapped out and I played echo which allowed me to start the storm. Tight on mana I couldn't play puresteel I drawn after retract and a hurkyl, but did succeed to go off. Kinda funny since I went down to 3 last cards and knew gs should be there, unless...yeah it was in one of my several hands, I usually lay down cards not needed atm. He told me he would won next turn with scapeshift otherwise.
Man I'm glad I really choose this "glas-cannon deck" (as other referenced it as) for this tournament! I entered with the mindset that I was playing to win! I didn't need to mulligan as low but was never afraid too do so aggressively to find the engines. I believe the sideboard is quite solid, unsure over Geist of Saint Traft and Ghirapur Aether Grid, just took them in for one or two matches (but never saw them). Choosing Hurkyl's Recall over Paradoxical Outcome in the main was really the right call! Rather have a 5th Retract and to use against affinity and chalice is truly great. Plus 4 mana for outcome was a bit of a stretch I felt when goldfishing. I thought long and hard if the Leyline's was right for this deck, but when another member confirmed my suspicions it was too hard both mull for engine and leyline the choice was clear for me.
So that's my report folks!
Just curious, why aren't you running any copies of Rugged Prairie? Almost every list that I've seen play SSG also runs the prairies for a shot at the T1 win.
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First league experience was 3-2. Losses were to DS Jund and burn. The DS Jund match coincided with one of my weaker hands and was the usual miserable experience. I do think I will drop leylines from the sideboard against them since it's such an awful topdeck. I think some number of Postmortem Lunge will be much better against them. The other loss was to a burn deck that got me with a turn two Eidolon game one and two Eidolons + skullcrack backup (neutralizing forge tender) game three.
The deck felt much more consistent in general. A smidge slower than the all in version I had been running but I was happy to say goodbye to the ~15% chance of just losing to myself.
Is there anything we can play maindeck so that we aren't stone dead to a game one Eidolon that doesn't weaken the combo too badly? It's very frustrating when it happens.
If you slide in Echoing Truth it can get rid of nearly anything annoying on the board and can also help bounce a couple of Cheeri0s if you have nothing troubling you.
Another thought on the tutor front: a Gifts Ungiven package of Sram, Paladin, Postmortem Lunge, and a Pact of Negation/Swan Song/Noxious Revival means that your opponent will need two interactive spells to stop you going off when you untap.
ETA: Initial testing suggests that Gifts Ungiven is legit. If you have a hand full of equipment you can go with Sram, Paladin, Lunge, and Noxious Revival at opponent's end of turn. If they're tapped out you can pretty much win on the spot. If you've had a mini-combo fizzle with a couple guys in play you can reload with a four equipment gifts and roll from there. It's relatively expensive but I find when I fail to combo it's usually due to a mana flood which makes the Gifts a welcome draw.
2 Marsh Flats
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
4 Rugged Prairie
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Mox Opal
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Bone Saw
4 Cathar's Shield
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Spidersilk Net
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Noxious Revival
1 Grapeshot
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
4 Puresteel Paladin
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Postmortem Lunge
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Fragmentize
2 Path to Exile
3 Pact of Negation
1 Echoing Truth
1 Postmortem Lunge
2 Paradoxical Outcome
The manabase is set up to maximize the chances of getting a guy down on turn one with the 4 SSGs and the 4 Rugged Prairies. This does open you up to some awkward hands (2 rugged prairie as your only land is no fun). Swapping the prairies out for fetch lands and/or fast lands might be right. I just really like the ability to force the opponent to have something or die.
Note that the SSGs also let you fire off an early gifts. In sideboarding I usually pull one or two SSG and one or two pieces of equipment.
Edit: Someone test a list with 5 Outcome/Gifts starting with 4 Gifts 1 Outcome.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Main pile would be EOT for Outcome, Paladin, Sram, Noxious. Can also Gifts for 4 equipments if you've bricked.
1 Inspiring Statuary would be good in this list. Allows Gifts to be useful on the combo turn.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
2 Marsh Flats
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
4 Rugged Prairie
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Mox Opal
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Bone Saw
4 Cathar's Shield
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Spidersilk Net
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Noxious Revival
1 Grapeshot
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
4 Puresteel Paladin
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Postmortem Lunge
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Fragmentize
2 Path to Exile
3 Pact of Negation
1 Echoing Truth
1 Postmortem Lunge
2 Paradoxical Outcome
The manabase is set up to maximize the chances of getting a guy down on turn one with the 4 SSGs and the 4 Rugged Prairies. This does open you up to some awkward hands (2 rugged prairie as your only land is no fun). Swapping the prairies out for fetch lands and/or fast lands might be right. I just really like the ability to force the opponent to have something or die on turn two.
First league run was 3-2. Lost to a white weenie deck that had t2 Thalia both games (with Brave the Elements backup game two). Also lost to a Delver deck though it felt less helpless than usual. Beat Bant Eldrazi (gifts was great), Affinity (same old same old) and some kind of GB creature combo deck. In sideboarding I usually pull one or two SSG and one or two pieces of equipment.
Standard gifts pile is Sram, Paladin, Postmortem Lunge, Noxious Revival or equipment, equipment, equipment, equipment, depending on the situation.
Eidolon has always been a thorn in my ass regardless of what deck I'm piloting. My favorite way to deal with it is when I'm on Bogles and I slap it with a Spirit Link; if my opponent has any creature/enchant removal, they almost always use it on their own Eidolon. I'm not sure how well this would fare in Cheeri0s as it seems like an irrelevant card in any other matchup. However for what it's worth, it does trigger draw off Sram...
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I'm not sure if any of them are really a good mainboard fit. If they land an Eidolon, we need an answer in our hand to deal with it before we go off.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
R1 vs Ad Nauseam, Win 2-0: I was faster than him and post sideboard I had the answers. He used discard but it wasn't enough since I had 2 engines in hand.
R2 vs Past in Flames Combo, Win 1-0: On G1 he started to combo first and cast Grapeshot at me for 13 (dont know why he did it that early), putting me down to 4. He then continues to combo, and uses flashback on the Grapeshot, to which I respond by casting Faith's Shield with fateful hour on. Yeah, it took him a couple minutes to figure it out and I just burst into laughter. Next turn it was my turn to combo.
Since G1 took quite some time, we went to time on G2. He had killed all my engines so I was just holding on to a Echoing Truth to disrupt his combo. He failed to combo so I won.
R3 vs Elves, Lose 1-2: On game one I combo him on turn 3. After that I messed up while sideboarding and making bad plays with Path to Exile. Should've left Paradoxical Outcome in the sideboard as it was just too slow against him.
R4 vs G/W Tron, Win 2-0: This is the match where Paradoxical Outcome really shined, as sometimes he would kill my engines but I'd still manage to combo off by drawing 4-8 cards off of Outcome. Tron doesn't kill you fast so you can kinda take your time.
Finished third as 2 players on 9 points decided to ID on the last round.
Pretty happy with the result anyway