I've been thinking about our deck and the DS Jund and Grixis Delver matchups.
If you think about it, we basically have a one card combo. We also get to play eight copies of that card. If you have a copy of Sram or Puresteel then given the rest of the deck you will sometimes have a turn 2 goldfish, usually have a turn 3 goldfish, and almost always have a turn 4 goldfish. It's like Ad Nauseam and Angel's Grace were merged into one card and that card only cost two mana.
But... we can only combo off at sorcery speed. Our combo card is also very vulnerable to removal. This means that we can lose to somebody interacting with the combo part of our deck (i.e. Chalice of the Void) but we can also lose to somebody who is geared up to interact with creatures. Delver decks will usually run eight or more ways to kill our guy (path/bolt/push/terminate/helix) along with some number of counterspells and snapcasters. DS Jund runs ~6 removal spells and 8 discard spells.
In addition, in order to make our combo work a large portion of our deck consists of cards that are blanks when we aren't comboing off (the 0s and retracts). Splinter Twin decks used to dedicate around 12 cards to the combo. We dedicate around 32. This makes it difficult to put a package in place that would let us fight through interaction or that would allow us to win without the combo.
So we have a deck that is very explosive but also easier to disrupt than other combo decks. I don't think we can turn around the Delver matchup or the Jund matchup with a few sideboard cards. We can win sometimes by mising countermagic and blitzing them out but to really be favored I think we need to find a way to make the deck more consistent and resilient if less explosive.
Is there some way we can play at instant speed? Goryo's Vengeance can bring back Sram during the opponent's end step, but that doesn't feel like a very consistent move.
How low can we go on the equipment count? If we're willing to accept a few turns of chaining equipment draws for value instead of immediate kills, could we free up space to build in redundancy? Alternatively, is there some way to squeeze value from the 0s without Sram/Puresteel in play?
Related to the previous point, could we actually replace some number of retracts with paradoxical outcomes? It would let us get more mileage out of fewer equipment at the cost of sacrificing speed.
A little out of left field, but what about a totem armor effect? Specifically thinking about Hyena Umbra, Crab Umbra, Eel Umbra. The former two are 1 drops and although they don't draw off Paladin, they play nice with Sram.
A little out of left field, but what about a totem armor effect? Specifically thinking about Hyena Umbra, Crab Umbra, Eel Umbra. The former two are 1 drops and although they don't draw off Paladin, they play nice with Sram.
The only problem that I have with them is the problem that I have with Postmortem Lunge, which is Path to Exile. As bad as it is to lose to bad matchups like DS and Delver, it's almost more frustrating to lose games to good matchups like GW tokens or xW Tron because they happen to draw as many Paths as I do Sram/Paladins. With Grishoalbrand the rest of the combo is creakier but you can at least win in response to Path. Maybe something like Defense Grid in the side? I can't decide if it is more or less clunky than Sigarda's Aid.
I personally have 4 Swan Songs in my maindeck, and I still struggle at fighting interactive decks. The archetype is overall super inconsistent and barely capable of coming back whether any of the key card is interacted with. It's based on luck in a huge portion of the games, as Grishoalbrand is.
In the way it's built right now (because we all built the same lists overall), I think the deck isn't competitive enough for the larger tournaments. I believe you need to concede some explosiveness and Turn-2 kills percentages for more protection and/or inevitability, in the way of Infect for example. If the testing doesn't dig into the wild, it's gonna take a long time for the archetype to rise.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
@ktkenshinx I agree completely. I should've been more clear, my bad keeps were 6s with no engines or Serum Visions.
I feel you. Last Friday night was the only time I've gotten to play Modern in the last month, and the game shop has been having this series for players that want to be sponsored, and Friday was the wanna-be-sponsored-Modern, so there were two Modern events. (The sponsored series had Standard Constructed, Draft, Sealed, Modern, etc. in consecutive weeks...I didn't pay attention since I didn't participate but I think it tracked points over 6 events at this LGS.)
As such the Modern event I played in only had enough players for 3 rounds so I didn't report on it. I went 1-2, beating Dredge and losing to Tron & Jund, and found my self keeping hands with engine + too many lands when I knew better! I seem to loose my aggression and become more timid regarding mulligans after a layoff.
People are talking about wanting to have more protection, has Apostle's Blessing been tested? I think it would work pretty well, you normally don't care about the 2 life, and although I haven't tested, I think it'd work nicely in a SSG build!
I personally have 4 Swan Songs in my maindeck, and I still struggle at fighting interactive decks. The archetype is overall super inconsistent and barely capable of coming back whether any of the key card is interacted with. It's based on luck in a huge portion of the games, as Grishoalbrand is.
In the way it's built right now (because we all built the same lists overall), I think the deck isn't competitive enough for the larger tournaments. I believe you need to concede some explosiveness and Turn-2 kills percentages for more protection and/or inevitability, in the way of Infect for example. If the testing doesn't dig into the wild, it's gonna take a long time for the archetype to rise.
If you're finding the deck "super inconsistent" and "barely capable of coming back" then you're either doing something wrong, having awful luck personally, or just not playing a statistically significant number of games. We have thousands of hours in this thread and the consensus is nearly the exact opposite of what you're saying.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I personally have 4 Swan Songs in my maindeck, and I still struggle at fighting interactive decks. The archetype is overall super inconsistent and barely capable of coming back whether any of the key card is interacted with. It's based on luck in a huge portion of the games, as Grishoalbrand is.
In the way it's built right now (because we all built the same lists overall), I think the deck isn't competitive enough for the larger tournaments. I believe you need to concede some explosiveness and Turn-2 kills percentages for more protection and/or inevitability, in the way of Infect for example. If the testing doesn't dig into the wild, it's gonna take a long time for the archetype to rise.
I'm the first to admit we have issues, but those issues aren't consistency issues. It's possible you are confusing "consistency" with "resiliency," and if so, then I agree with you; we definitely have resiliency issues against decks like DS Jund. But even there, the deck is surprisingly resilient against the decks with 1-5 or so interactive spells (Bant Eldrazi, Affinity, etc.). The decks with 6+ spells like DS Jund, Esper Control, Grixis Control/Delver, etc. are more troublesome. If that is the issue you are having, then you are in the right place and we can work to fix it together. If you are having an issue with consistency, you are also in the right place, but for different reasons. We'd be happy to help you get more consistent wins with this deck against the opponents who have less or minimal interaction. But beating the super interactive matchups is going to require more testing on all our parts.
neither of these are worth it in a deck with 20+ 0 mana artifacts.
But I just did a quick search and didn't see much talk about monastery mentor. I feel like some combination of that and bastion inventor must have been tried out? Realistically though this deck is only allowed so much resiliency before it becomes an issue.
I personally have 4 Swan Songs in my maindeck, and I still struggle at fighting interactive decks. The archetype is overall super inconsistent and barely capable of coming back whether any of the key card is interacted with. It's based on luck in a huge portion of the games, as Grishoalbrand is.
In the way it's built right now (because we all built the same lists overall), I think the deck isn't competitive enough for the larger tournaments. I believe you need to concede some explosiveness and Turn-2 kills percentages for more protection and/or inevitability, in the way of Infect for example. If the testing doesn't dig into the wild, it's gonna take a long time for the archetype to rise.
I'm the first to admit we have issues, but those issues aren't consistency issues. It's possible you are confusing "consistency" with "resiliency," and if so, then I agree with you; we definitely have resiliency issues against decks like DS Jund. But even there, the deck is surprisingly resilient against the decks with 1-5 or so interactive spells (Bant Eldrazi, Affinity, etc.). The decks with 6+ spells like DS Jund, Esper Control, Grixis Control/Delver, etc. are more troublesome. If that is the issue you are having, then you are in the right place and we can work to fix it together. If you are having an issue with consistency, you are also in the right place, but for different reasons. We'd be happy to help you get more consistent wins with this deck against the opponents who have less or minimal interaction. But beating the super interactive matchups is going to require more testing on all our parts.
I am going to run through simulations on how much consistency each of the different pieces brings to the deck. For example how much dropping each Cheeri0 affects fizzle rates, how much dropping each Serum Vision affects; mana, fizzle, and engine consistency, how much extra bounce like Hurkyl's Recall helps with fizzle rate, ect... This will give us a good idea on how to squeeze more protection into the main-board. Right now some folks are running 4 protection spells, but that still only gives an opening hand a 40% chance of having one. It jumps to 47% at 5, then 54% at 6, and 60% at 7. Cramming that much in might not work, but having a better than 50/50 shot of having main-board protection will definitely help the deck against our bad match-ups that pop up consistently on day 2's of the big tourneys.
It has been mentioned that it seems we have either 80/20 match-ups in our favor, or 20/80 against. I think if we can sacrifice a bit on the all-in philosophy in order to smooth it out to 70/30 for the good, and pull up to 35/65 against for main-board match-ups, that extra 5% net will get us closer to the top8's we desire. Well enough jabber, I will be back with statistics on Cheeri0s first.
neither of these are worth it in a deck with 20+ 0 mana artifacts.
But I just did a quick search and didn't see much talk about monastery mentor. I feel like some combination of that and bastion inventor must have been tried out? Realistically though this deck is only allowed so much resiliency before it becomes an issue.
Mentor has been heavily discused and utilized. The first real success the deck saw was Datka's list with maindeck Mentors.
Commune is a very solid option over Serum Visions if you go green. Looking 5 deep for Paladin is strong.
CoCo is too expensive.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
1-2 - On the draw - Junk
Game 1 was a keep of Sram, 2 lands, 3 cheeri0s and Serum Visions. T1 he discarded my Sram, I drew a Paladin, played Visions and passed while he played Goyf on his T2. I start chaining cheeri0s but couldn't go off though I did draw another Paladin. He [card=Abrupt Decay]decayed my Paladin on T3 but it wasn't enough. Played the one I drew and combo'd for the win. Game 2 I had to mulligan down to 5, early discard and Path took care of my engine. Game 3 I was even more unlucky as I had to mulligan to 4 where I kept two cheeri0s, Mox Opal and a Path. Discard took my Path and Ghost Quarters dealt with my lands to stall long enough until he drew a Scooze and a Rhino.
Perhaps Leylines would be a better SB choice to negate their discard spells. But as with Mardu matchup I played against last Friday, it's a tough matchup when facing both removal and discard.
2-1 - On the draw - Kiki Chord Nahiri
Game 1 he has no interaction and I win on T3. Game 2 I kept fizzling with cheeri0s, drawing nothing but lands. Raging Ravine along with Qasali Pridemage took care of me. Game 3 he started with a tapped Overgrown Tomb which meant no Path or bluffed Bolt. Had to use Grapeshot early to kill his Kataki but eventually combo'd off on T4 with the help of Noxious Revival to retrieve Grapeshot.
2-1 - On the draw - Merfolk
Game 1 T3 combo with zero interaction. Game 2 was similar to Kiki Chord game 2 as I kept fizzling on cheeri0s draws. Having Hallowed Fountain in play also enabled her islandwalk so my 2/7 Paladin and Sram were of no use. Game 3 she was off to a slow start and I combo'd on T4.
2-1 - On the draw - Eldrazi Tron
This one I dreaded the most as I knew that resolved Chalice of the Void is extremely hard to beat. Game 1 went exactly this way. T1 pass into T2 Matter Reshaper and Chalice on 0. I had a Sram which meant that I could still draw off cheeri0s even though they all got countered. Was trying to dig for that lone copy of Hurkyl's but unsuccessfully.
Game 2 I kept a hand with Sram, Echoing Truth, Mox Opal, 2 cheeri0s and Serum Visions. I start off with Serum Visions which draws me a Noxious Revival and I pass the turn. He plays a land and passes. I could've played Sram on T2 but I decided to pass and leave mana up for Truth in case he played a Chalice. His T2 he plays a land and Chalice on 0. I bounce it with Truth EoT and follow it up with Sram, Mox and two cheeri0s on my T3. Unfortunately I blanked on the draws and he followed up with a Chalice on 2. This prevented me from using Noxious Revival on the Echoing Truth. What followed was a Chalice on 0. Unable to cast any cheeri0s or Echoing Truth I started beating down with 2/8 Sram. I got really lucky as he proceeded to draw nothing but lands for the next 6-7 turns whereas I eventually drew a Fragmentize to destroy the Chalice on 2, used Noxious to bring back Truth and bounce his other Chalice and combo off for the win.
Game 3 I saw all 3 copies of Path to Exile to deal with his Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher and Walking Ballista. Luckily there were no Chalices this game and I beat him down with 2 Paladins and a Sram (buffed by trusty Bone Axes!).
I'd say this matchup is favoured for us as long as there is no Chalice involved. Sram is much better than Paladin due to the "on cast" trigger rather than ETB for cheeri0s.
Overall I love the deck. Janky, linear and very unfair
I have a question regarding 2nd copy of our engine. Let's say we play a Paladin on T2 with 2 lands in play and have another copy in our hand along with 2-3 cheeri0s. Do we play a cheeri0 or two straight away or do we wait another turn, play the second copy of Paladin and then start playing cheeri0s? Whats the correct sequence of plays?
I think I was too hasty today and wanted to combo off too fast especially when faced against decks with less removal. This led to situations where I had 1-2 engines on the board but no gas to trigger them.
It has been mentioned that it seems we have either 80/20 match-ups in our favor, or 20/80 against. I think if we can sacrifice a bit on the all-in philosophy in order to smooth it out to 70/30 for the good, and pull up to 35/65 against for main-board match-ups, that extra 5% net will get us closer to the top8's we desire. Well enough jabber, I will be back with statistics on Cheeri0s first.
I'd be curious to see somebody run the numbers of our winning percentage as a function of the number of interactive cards our opponent plays. My sense is that it is something like this:
0: 80-90%. I very rarely get outraced without interaction, but sometimes the combo just fizzles.
1: 60%-ish. Sometimes the second engine never shows up, especially when the opponent applies pressure.
2: 40% or less. Generally the wins from here on out involve a mini combo, then guys dying, then casting the guys you drew during the mini combo.
3: 20% or less. This is starting to get into hope and a prayer territory.
We can up our winning percentage by increasing the numbers directly (counterspells, other resiliency) or by reducing the amount of interaction we see (proactive discard, playing while opponent is tapped out). Ideally both but I'm not sure if it is possible.
*Ok, important note here right off the bat. I remembered incorrectly when I said I faced 4 DS. I actually faced 3 DS and 1 Abzan.
We sit down, shuffle. "Low roll?" "Uh...sure?" I love starting with the offer of low roll. Sometimes closest to 7. This game is supposed to be fun, and the fun can start before Turn 1. I roll double 6s.
Game 1 (on the draw): I keep my solid 7, take a Turn 1 IoK. Land, pass. He taps out for Goyf. Cue Cary Elwes holding a goblet of poisoned wine. "You guessed wrong." Paladin comes down and draws a bajillionty cards and he dies.
Game 2 (on the draw): Turn 1 discard doesn't stop me cold. But the Paths do. 2 of them. And an Abrupt Decay. Never saw Outcome.
Game 3 (on the play): No Turn 1 Discard; Sram draws his one cast trigger and eats a Path. Second Sram draws 5 cards. 4 of them are Outcomes. Needless to say, hard brick. Abrupt Decay tidies him up. However; eot Outcome draws so much gas that I just overwhelm him instantly. Guys, Outcome is really really good against nonshadow BGx
1-0
Round 2 vs Death's Shadow
Game 1 (on the draw): I keep a 7 with 4 lands and a Sram. I do nothing for 5 turns and then double Goyf wrecks me.
I saw he was DS even though I never actually saw a Shadow; so I don't bring in Outcomes. I can't remember exactly what I did, but I'm pretty sure I either brought in Silences, or made no changes.
Game 2 (on the play): I keep a 6 with no engine. Scry away Opal. Die to double Goyf.
Lesson of the day: Don't keep *****y hands.
1-1
Round 3 vs Death's Shadow
I get paired with my buddy from a couple hours away. I know he's on DS. I know he's even more prepared than most DS decks for me. But we're both excited for a fun match.
Game 1 (on the draw): Ok I'll be totally honest. I don't remember the opening turns. I know that I Swan Song'd a discard spell and ended up facing down a bird and a biiiig Goyf on turn 2 or 3. It shouldn't have been a problem, since I dropped Sram and started going off while he was tapped out; but the exact nature of my brick led to yet another terrible decision. I stopped with a hand containing a second Opal, Grapeshot, and Paladin. I had EXACTLY enough Storm to kill birdy and the beast. I would then have untapped with Sram, on a pressureless board, and played Paladin. Instead I played Paladin. Guess what? Pressure kills. We dance for several turns, but none of my equipments is a Net and the math goes south for me real fast.
Game 2 (on the play): This 7 guys. This opening 7 was sent to me by the deities of fate and fortune and blessed by the Almighty Lolcat. Sram, Noxious, Swan Song, Opal, Retract, 2 lands. Any equipment chain will get me there through whatever wall of hatred he's holding. Plus, I draw another Sram almost immediately. All told, we have an epic contest of 2 discard spells, 2 Fatal Pushes, and an Abrupt Decay that ends with me sticking a Sram. Now he's hellbent and I'm holding Retract and Opal. I don't see any equipments. Ever. It takes him a while to kill me. No equipments the entire time.
On the bright side, this friend that came with a stack of removal spells was literally shaking the entire time. "Yeah, I can see this matchup being 50/50 for you. My hands were stacked, and your first one at least was just 'normal'. I was terrified of you every single turn."
Lesson of the day: What. Seriously, universe? Can I get statistics that are just a tiny bit more reasonable?
Round 4 vs Bogles
This guys is fun. He's really interested in the deck, and we chat and joke a lot while we play. But the match ends up exactly like you'd expect with one surprise twist.
Game 1 (on the play): Turn 1 fetch, pass. He plays a Gladecover Scout. I well up with sympathy. This poor, poor guy. EOT crack fetch. Play second land. Play Paladin. "I play Storm sometimes, so I totally love being on the other end and just watching someone else play Magic." I'm glad, friend, because you're not untapping with that Scout this game.
-1 Serum Visions
+1 Echoing Truth
Game 2 (on the draw): He mulls to 5 looking for his sideboard. Doesn't find it. Turn 1 Bogle, turn 2 Spirit Dancer. Now, here I have a choice to make, and it's a pretty easy one. My hand is loaded for the turn 2 kill: 4 equipments and Opal. But I have a second engine, he has 2 cards in hand, and I feel so unthreatened. "Pass." "Oh, uh, alright. Didn't think I'd get a third turn." He drops two Ethereal Armors on his Spirit Dancer, followed by a third one I don't remember, and smacks me for 14. Seeing he's tapped out, and that I have enough life to play my third land, My Sram graciously lets it through. My opponent then takes upwards of 40 damage.
2-2
Round 5 vs Grixis Control
I've still fallen far, however, and am seated in the back room. All of us in there are having a good time, though, and there's basically a 8-person Magic party at the table.
Game 1 (on the play): I see Island suspending Ancestral Visions. Maybe if I was more familiar with the format, I would've pegged him as Grixis. As it was, though, I killed him before he played a second land and assumed some blue thing that didn't worry me at all.
Game 2 (on the draw): Ooooooh, Watery Grave. Ok then. Well this just got about a thousand times worse. Yeah, I'm totally unprepared this game and end up casting Echoing Truth on 4 Snapcasters for lulz in response to his lethal Bolt.
-3 Stuffs
+3 Silence
Game 3 (on the play): We roughhouse for a while, I lose a dude to discard, fight back with Noxious, get a clean combo turn that bricks. My Sram on board sticks, but he casts one more discard spell while I'm holding Paladin and Silence. "Take Paladin." Now, I'll be fair. This is definitely the right choice. And I even feel a bit of despair knowing that Silence is just going to be cute and counter his suspended Visions before I die anyway. But this is Magic, and we play through to the bitter end.
This guy is a little down about where he's at, but still having a good enough time that I can make him smile and talk. I offer low roll. "High roll!" "Closest to 7?" "High roll!!" He's not tilting because I'm offering weird rolls; turns out he's been trying low roll all day and losing every time. Aaaand I accept high roll and he rolls 4. Feelsbad.
Game 1 (on the play): I mull to 5 and see no engine. I'm wary of going to 4 against an unknown deck; the room seems to be full of Tron and Infect and I've only been seeing the nightmares. I play my two Hallowed Fountains and nothing else all game.
Game 2 (on the play): Hooray, a keepable 7! Turn 1 fetch, eot crack for Fountain. "Hey, this looks familiar!" Next turn play Fountain. "Yep, I've definitely seen these before. But last time they didn't do anything!" "Don't worry, this time they will." "Good, I'd like to see what it is."
Paladin.
Guy next to me, to my opponent: "Bill, have you seen this deck before? Because you're about to have your mind blown."
Equipment. Equipment. Equipment. Equipment. Equipment. Opal. Retract. More equipments. Revival Retract. Still more equipments. (Spoiler alert: he dies on turn 2.)
Game 3 (on the draw): Opponent mulls to 5. I partially combo turn 2 and stick some stuff on Paladin. None, importantly, is Paradise Mantle. "Stony Silence." Turn 3, Sram, start going off again. Because I have only one land open, I have to stop early and discard down to the perfect 7 for next turn. Turn 4, Retract off a land, go full hog, Echoing Truth Stony Silence. Opponent shakes on that, there's no doubt at all that I have the kill from there.
Lesson of the day: ktkenshinx is right. Always bring in one Truth. I didn't even expect it to be useful here, but I would've lost.
4-2
Round 7 vs Death's Shadow
Last round of the day. This guy looks super srsbsns, but he's quick to laugh and we have a great time. A few of the games around us are all chatting with each other, and when I start bringing up Vintage decks we, being tired, get silly. "Yeah, I totally brought Vintage Belcher and nobody's called me on it yet, so I guess it's fine. My opponents were all just confused that they'd never seen Mox Ruby before because it's so good!"
Game 1 (on the play): My opponent mulligans to oblivion, and I turn 2 him. But he's clearly Jund from his lands.
Game 2 (on the draw): We have a real, exciting game of Magic. I try to outmaneuver him and land a Paladin safely, and it really does come down to the wire. Finally, he's empty on answers but has double Goyf shortening my time on this earth. His life total dips exceptionally low, and Grapeshot off the top would've been lethal even though I wasn't holding a Retract.
Game 3 (on the play): My turn to mulligan to my doom. I keep a 4 with 2 lands and Path. I keep myself alive an extra turn by Pathing his huge Shadow on the lethal swing, but I never see business.
4-3
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
One route to add resilience would be to include some number of main deck Summoner's Pact and maybe even Tolaria West and Pact of Negation. Running a virtual 12+ draw engines could overwhelm a lot of decks' removal packages, although the pacts would make the combo pretty do or die. The pact does offer the side benefit of pulling a bad draw out of the deck before you combo off.
Summoner's Pact only searches for Green creatures.
Paradoxical Outcome is really, really good. CoCo digs 6 deep for an engine, and if it misses it does nothing. Outcome draws 4+ cards with no upper limit. An end of turn Outcome allows you to overwhelm removal-heavy hands with sheer value and even Storm out without an engine.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I think CoCo is a bad choice for this deck. We can only get G from Mox Opal and I'd rather not rely on that. It also puts all noncreature cards on the bottom which means any Grapeshots, Noxious Revivals or SB card we might need, are gone for the rest of the game. Besides CoCo greatly increases our variance as it has a chance of completely fizzling whereas Outcome will always draw us cards if we have some permanents on the battlefield.
A little out of left field, but what about a totem armor effect? Specifically thinking about Hyena Umbra, Crab Umbra, Eel Umbra. The former two are 1 drops and although they don't draw off Paladin, they play nice with Sram.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
The only problem that I have with them is the problem that I have with Postmortem Lunge, which is Path to Exile. As bad as it is to lose to bad matchups like DS and Delver, it's almost more frustrating to lose games to good matchups like GW tokens or xW Tron because they happen to draw as many Paths as I do Sram/Paladins. With Grishoalbrand the rest of the combo is creakier but you can at least win in response to Path. Maybe something like Defense Grid in the side? I can't decide if it is more or less clunky than Sigarda's Aid.
In the way it's built right now (because we all built the same lists overall), I think the deck isn't competitive enough for the larger tournaments. I believe you need to concede some explosiveness and Turn-2 kills percentages for more protection and/or inevitability, in the way of Infect for example. If the testing doesn't dig into the wild, it's gonna take a long time for the archetype to rise.
As such the Modern event I played in only had enough players for 3 rounds so I didn't report on it. I went 1-2, beating Dredge and losing to Tron & Jund, and found my self keeping hands with engine + too many lands when I knew better! I seem to loose my aggression and become more timid regarding mulligans after a layoff.
If you're finding the deck "super inconsistent" and "barely capable of coming back" then you're either doing something wrong, having awful luck personally, or just not playing a statistically significant number of games. We have thousands of hours in this thread and the consensus is nearly the exact opposite of what you're saying.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I'm the first to admit we have issues, but those issues aren't consistency issues. It's possible you are confusing "consistency" with "resiliency," and if so, then I agree with you; we definitely have resiliency issues against decks like DS Jund. But even there, the deck is surprisingly resilient against the decks with 1-5 or so interactive spells (Bant Eldrazi, Affinity, etc.). The decks with 6+ spells like DS Jund, Esper Control, Grixis Control/Delver, etc. are more troublesome. If that is the issue you are having, then you are in the right place and we can work to fix it together. If you are having an issue with consistency, you are also in the right place, but for different reasons. We'd be happy to help you get more consistent wins with this deck against the opponents who have less or minimal interaction. But beating the super interactive matchups is going to require more testing on all our parts.
neither of these are worth it in a deck with 20+ 0 mana artifacts.
But I just did a quick search and didn't see much talk about monastery mentor. I feel like some combination of that and bastion inventor must have been tried out? Realistically though this deck is only allowed so much resiliency before it becomes an issue.
I am going to run through simulations on how much consistency each of the different pieces brings to the deck. For example how much dropping each Cheeri0 affects fizzle rates, how much dropping each Serum Vision affects; mana, fizzle, and engine consistency, how much extra bounce like Hurkyl's Recall helps with fizzle rate, ect... This will give us a good idea on how to squeeze more protection into the main-board. Right now some folks are running 4 protection spells, but that still only gives an opening hand a 40% chance of having one. It jumps to 47% at 5, then 54% at 6, and 60% at 7. Cramming that much in might not work, but having a better than 50/50 shot of having main-board protection will definitely help the deck against our bad match-ups that pop up consistently on day 2's of the big tourneys.
It has been mentioned that it seems we have either 80/20 match-ups in our favor, or 20/80 against. I think if we can sacrifice a bit on the all-in philosophy in order to smooth it out to 70/30 for the good, and pull up to 35/65 against for main-board match-ups, that extra 5% net will get us closer to the top8's we desire. Well enough jabber, I will be back with statistics on Cheeri0s first.
Mentor has been heavily discused and utilized. The first real success the deck saw was Datka's list with maindeck Mentors.
Commune is a very solid option over Serum Visions if you go green. Looking 5 deep for Paladin is strong.
CoCo is too expensive.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
Artifacts (24):
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Bone Saw
4 Cathar's Shield
4 Mox Opal
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Spidersilk Net
Spells (13):
2 Grapeshot
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Noxious Revival
4 Retract
3 Serum Visions
2 Swan Song
4 Flooded Strand
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Seachrome Coast
2 Windswept Heath
3 Echoing Truth
2 Fragmentize
3 Paradoxical Outcome
3 Path to Exile
4 Silence
Considering the meta game, I was pretty lucky with my matchups. Elves, Merfolk and Kiki Chord were very light on removal allowing me to do my thing.
2-0 - On the draw - Abzan Elves
T3 win both games. Game 2 went Essence Warden T1 into T2 Elvish Mystic, Heritage Druid and Elvish Archdruid. I Pathed one Elvish Archdruid EoT T2 and he played two more on T3 but it wasn't enough as I combo'd off on T3.
In: 2x Silence, 2x Echoing Truth, 3x Path to Exile
Out: 1x Grapeshot, 1x Serum Visions, 1x Spidersilk Net, 1x Cathar's Shield, 2x Accorder's Shield, 1x Hurkyl's Recall
1-2 - On the draw - Junk
Game 1 was a keep of Sram, 2 lands, 3 cheeri0s and Serum Visions. T1 he discarded my Sram, I drew a Paladin, played Visions and passed while he played Goyf on his T2. I start chaining cheeri0s but couldn't go off though I did draw another Paladin. He [card=Abrupt Decay]decayed my Paladin on T3 but it wasn't enough. Played the one I drew and combo'd for the win. Game 2 I had to mulligan down to 5, early discard and Path took care of my engine. Game 3 I was even more unlucky as I had to mulligan to 4 where I kept two cheeri0s, Mox Opal and a Path. Discard took my Path and Ghost Quarters dealt with my lands to stall long enough until he drew a Scooze and a Rhino.
Perhaps Leylines would be a better SB choice to negate their discard spells. But as with Mardu matchup I played against last Friday, it's a tough matchup when facing both removal and discard.
In: 3x Silence, 3x Path to Exile, 1x Fragmentize
Out: 3x Cathar's Shield, 1x Spidersilk Net, 1x Swan Song, 1x Serum Visions, 1x Hurkyl's Recall
2-1 - On the draw - Kiki Chord Nahiri
Game 1 he has no interaction and I win on T3. Game 2 I kept fizzling with cheeri0s, drawing nothing but lands. Raging Ravine along with Qasali Pridemage took care of me. Game 3 he started with a tapped Overgrown Tomb which meant no Path or bluffed Bolt. Had to use Grapeshot early to kill his Kataki but eventually combo'd off on T4 with the help of Noxious Revival to retrieve Grapeshot.
In: 3x Path to Exile, 2x Silence, 1x Echoing Truth, 1x Fragmentize
Out: 3x Accorder's Shield, 1x Spidersilk Net, 1x Hurkyl's Recall, 1x Serum Visions, 1x Grapeshot
2-1 - On the draw - Merfolk
Game 1 T3 combo with zero interaction. Game 2 was similar to Kiki Chord game 2 as I kept fizzling on cheeri0s draws. Having Hallowed Fountain in play also enabled her islandwalk so my 2/7 Paladin and Sram were of no use. Game 3 she was off to a slow start and I combo'd on T4.
In: 2x Path to Exile, 2x Fragmentize, 2x Silence, 1x Echoing Truth
Out: 2x Swan Song, 2x Cathar's Shield, 1x Spidersilk Net, 1x Hurkyl's Recall, 1x Serum Visions.
2-1 - On the draw - Eldrazi Tron
This one I dreaded the most as I knew that resolved Chalice of the Void is extremely hard to beat. Game 1 went exactly this way. T1 pass into T2 Matter Reshaper and Chalice on 0. I had a Sram which meant that I could still draw off cheeri0s even though they all got countered. Was trying to dig for that lone copy of Hurkyl's but unsuccessfully.
Game 2 I kept a hand with Sram, Echoing Truth, Mox Opal, 2 cheeri0s and Serum Visions. I start off with Serum Visions which draws me a Noxious Revival and I pass the turn. He plays a land and passes. I could've played Sram on T2 but I decided to pass and leave mana up for Truth in case he played a Chalice. His T2 he plays a land and Chalice on 0. I bounce it with Truth EoT and follow it up with Sram, Mox and two cheeri0s on my T3. Unfortunately I blanked on the draws and he followed up with a Chalice on 2. This prevented me from using Noxious Revival on the Echoing Truth. What followed was a Chalice on 0. Unable to cast any cheeri0s or Echoing Truth I started beating down with 2/8 Sram. I got really lucky as he proceeded to draw nothing but lands for the next 6-7 turns whereas I eventually drew a Fragmentize to destroy the Chalice on 2, used Noxious to bring back Truth and bounce his other Chalice and combo off for the win.
Game 3 I saw all 3 copies of Path to Exile to deal with his Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher and Walking Ballista. Luckily there were no Chalices this game and I beat him down with 2 Paladins and a Sram (buffed by trusty Bone Axes!).
I'd say this matchup is favoured for us as long as there is no Chalice involved. Sram is much better than Paladin due to the "on cast" trigger rather than ETB for cheeri0s.
In: 3x Echoing Truth, 3x Path to Exile, 2x Fragmentize
Out: 3x Cathar's Shield, 2x Swan Song, 1x Spidersilk Net, 1x Serum Visions, 1x Hurkyl's Recall
Overall I love the deck. Janky, linear and very unfair
I have a question regarding 2nd copy of our engine. Let's say we play a Paladin on T2 with 2 lands in play and have another copy in our hand along with 2-3 cheeri0s. Do we play a cheeri0 or two straight away or do we wait another turn, play the second copy of Paladin and then start playing cheeri0s? Whats the correct sequence of plays?
I think I was too hasty today and wanted to combo off too fast especially when faced against decks with less removal. This led to situations where I had 1-2 engines on the board but no gas to trigger them.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
I'd be curious to see somebody run the numbers of our winning percentage as a function of the number of interactive cards our opponent plays. My sense is that it is something like this:
0: 80-90%. I very rarely get outraced without interaction, but sometimes the combo just fizzles.
1: 60%-ish. Sometimes the second engine never shows up, especially when the opponent applies pressure.
2: 40% or less. Generally the wins from here on out involve a mini combo, then guys dying, then casting the guys you drew during the mini combo.
3: 20% or less. This is starting to get into hope and a prayer territory.
We can up our winning percentage by increasing the numbers directly (counterspells, other resiliency) or by reducing the amount of interaction we see (proactive discard, playing while opponent is tapped out). Ideally both but I'm not sure if it is possible.
Round 1 vs Abzan
*Ok, important note here right off the bat. I remembered incorrectly when I said I faced 4 DS. I actually faced 3 DS and 1 Abzan.
We sit down, shuffle. "Low roll?" "Uh...sure?" I love starting with the offer of low roll. Sometimes closest to 7. This game is supposed to be fun, and the fun can start before Turn 1. I roll double 6s.
Game 1 (on the draw): I keep my solid 7, take a Turn 1 IoK. Land, pass. He taps out for Goyf. Cue Cary Elwes holding a goblet of poisoned wine. "You guessed wrong." Paladin comes down and draws a bajillionty cards and he dies.
I saw he was Abzan from his lands, so
-2 Serum Visions
-1 Equipment
-1 Hurkyl's
+4 Paradoxical Outcome
Game 2 (on the draw): Turn 1 discard doesn't stop me cold. But the Paths do. 2 of them. And an Abrupt Decay. Never saw Outcome.
Game 3 (on the play): No Turn 1 Discard; Sram draws his one cast trigger and eats a Path. Second Sram draws 5 cards. 4 of them are Outcomes. Needless to say, hard brick. Abrupt Decay tidies him up. However; eot Outcome draws so much gas that I just overwhelm him instantly. Guys, Outcome is really really good against nonshadow BGx
1-0
Round 2 vs Death's Shadow
Game 1 (on the draw): I keep a 7 with 4 lands and a Sram. I do nothing for 5 turns and then double Goyf wrecks me.
I saw he was DS even though I never actually saw a Shadow; so I don't bring in Outcomes. I can't remember exactly what I did, but I'm pretty sure I either brought in Silences, or made no changes.
Game 2 (on the play): I keep a 6 with no engine. Scry away Opal. Die to double Goyf.
Lesson of the day: Don't keep *****y hands.
1-1
Round 3 vs Death's Shadow
I get paired with my buddy from a couple hours away. I know he's on DS. I know he's even more prepared than most DS decks for me. But we're both excited for a fun match.
Game 1 (on the draw): Ok I'll be totally honest. I don't remember the opening turns. I know that I Swan Song'd a discard spell and ended up facing down a bird and a biiiig Goyf on turn 2 or 3. It shouldn't have been a problem, since I dropped Sram and started going off while he was tapped out; but the exact nature of my brick led to yet another terrible decision. I stopped with a hand containing a second Opal, Grapeshot, and Paladin. I had EXACTLY enough Storm to kill birdy and the beast. I would then have untapped with Sram, on a pressureless board, and played Paladin. Instead I played Paladin. Guess what? Pressure kills. We dance for several turns, but none of my equipments is a Net and the math goes south for me real fast.
Game 2 (on the play): This 7 guys. This opening 7 was sent to me by the deities of fate and fortune and blessed by the Almighty Lolcat. Sram, Noxious, Swan Song, Opal, Retract, 2 lands. Any equipment chain will get me there through whatever wall of hatred he's holding. Plus, I draw another Sram almost immediately. All told, we have an epic contest of 2 discard spells, 2 Fatal Pushes, and an Abrupt Decay that ends with me sticking a Sram. Now he's hellbent and I'm holding Retract and Opal. I don't see any equipments. Ever. It takes him a while to kill me. No equipments the entire time.
On the bright side, this friend that came with a stack of removal spells was literally shaking the entire time. "Yeah, I can see this matchup being 50/50 for you. My hands were stacked, and your first one at least was just 'normal'. I was terrified of you every single turn."
Lesson of the day: What. Seriously, universe? Can I get statistics that are just a tiny bit more reasonable?
Round 4 vs Bogles
This guys is fun. He's really interested in the deck, and we chat and joke a lot while we play. But the match ends up exactly like you'd expect with one surprise twist.
Game 1 (on the play): Turn 1 fetch, pass. He plays a Gladecover Scout. I well up with sympathy. This poor, poor guy. EOT crack fetch. Play second land. Play Paladin. "I play Storm sometimes, so I totally love being on the other end and just watching someone else play Magic." I'm glad, friend, because you're not untapping with that Scout this game.
-1 Serum Visions
+1 Echoing Truth
Game 2 (on the draw): He mulls to 5 looking for his sideboard. Doesn't find it. Turn 1 Bogle, turn 2 Spirit Dancer. Now, here I have a choice to make, and it's a pretty easy one. My hand is loaded for the turn 2 kill: 4 equipments and Opal. But I have a second engine, he has 2 cards in hand, and I feel so unthreatened. "Pass." "Oh, uh, alright. Didn't think I'd get a third turn." He drops two Ethereal Armors on his Spirit Dancer, followed by a third one I don't remember, and smacks me for 14. Seeing he's tapped out, and that I have enough life to play my third land, My Sram graciously lets it through. My opponent then takes upwards of 40 damage.
2-2
Round 5 vs Grixis Control
I've still fallen far, however, and am seated in the back room. All of us in there are having a good time, though, and there's basically a 8-person Magic party at the table.
Game 1 (on the play): I see Island suspending Ancestral Visions. Maybe if I was more familiar with the format, I would've pegged him as Grixis. As it was, though, I killed him before he played a second land and assumed some blue thing that didn't worry me at all.
Game 2 (on the draw): Ooooooh, Watery Grave. Ok then. Well this just got about a thousand times worse. Yeah, I'm totally unprepared this game and end up casting Echoing Truth on 4 Snapcasters for lulz in response to his lethal Bolt.
-3 Stuffs
+3 Silence
Game 3 (on the play): We roughhouse for a while, I lose a dude to discard, fight back with Noxious, get a clean combo turn that bricks. My Sram on board sticks, but he casts one more discard spell while I'm holding Paladin and Silence. "Take Paladin." Now, I'll be fair. This is definitely the right choice. And I even feel a bit of despair knowing that Silence is just going to be cute and counter his suspended Visions before I die anyway. But this is Magic, and we play through to the bitter end.
UUD
"....Silence you?" "Ugh. Sure." "........Retract."
3-2
Round 6 vs KirdApes.dec??
This guy is a little down about where he's at, but still having a good enough time that I can make him smile and talk. I offer low roll. "High roll!" "Closest to 7?" "High roll!!" He's not tilting because I'm offering weird rolls; turns out he's been trying low roll all day and losing every time. Aaaand I accept high roll and he rolls 4. Feelsbad.
Game 1 (on the play): I mull to 5 and see no engine. I'm wary of going to 4 against an unknown deck; the room seems to be full of Tron and Infect and I've only been seeing the nightmares. I play my two Hallowed Fountains and nothing else all game.
Game 2 (on the play): Hooray, a keepable 7! Turn 1 fetch, eot crack for Fountain. "Hey, this looks familiar!" Next turn play Fountain. "Yep, I've definitely seen these before. But last time they didn't do anything!" "Don't worry, this time they will." "Good, I'd like to see what it is."
Paladin.
Guy next to me, to my opponent: "Bill, have you seen this deck before? Because you're about to have your mind blown."
Equipment. Equipment. Equipment. Equipment. Equipment. Opal. Retract. More equipments. Revival Retract. Still more equipments. (Spoiler alert: he dies on turn 2.)
Game 3 (on the draw): Opponent mulls to 5. I partially combo turn 2 and stick some stuff on Paladin. None, importantly, is Paradise Mantle. "Stony Silence." Turn 3, Sram, start going off again. Because I have only one land open, I have to stop early and discard down to the perfect 7 for next turn. Turn 4, Retract off a land, go full hog, Echoing Truth Stony Silence. Opponent shakes on that, there's no doubt at all that I have the kill from there.
Lesson of the day: ktkenshinx is right. Always bring in one Truth. I didn't even expect it to be useful here, but I would've lost.
4-2
Round 7 vs Death's Shadow
Last round of the day. This guy looks super srsbsns, but he's quick to laugh and we have a great time. A few of the games around us are all chatting with each other, and when I start bringing up Vintage decks we, being tired, get silly. "Yeah, I totally brought Vintage Belcher and nobody's called me on it yet, so I guess it's fine. My opponents were all just confused that they'd never seen Mox Ruby before because it's so good!"
Game 1 (on the play): My opponent mulligans to oblivion, and I turn 2 him. But he's clearly Jund from his lands.
Game 2 (on the draw): We have a real, exciting game of Magic. I try to outmaneuver him and land a Paladin safely, and it really does come down to the wire. Finally, he's empty on answers but has double Goyf shortening my time on this earth. His life total dips exceptionally low, and Grapeshot off the top would've been lethal even though I wasn't holding a Retract.
Game 3 (on the play): My turn to mulligan to my doom. I keep a 4 with 2 lands and Path. I keep myself alive an extra turn by Pathing his huge Shadow on the lethal swing, but I never see business.
4-3
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Paradoxical Outcome is really, really good. CoCo digs 6 deep for an engine, and if it misses it does nothing. Outcome draws 4+ cards with no upper limit. An end of turn Outcome allows you to overwhelm removal-heavy hands with sheer value and even Storm out without an engine.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
With maindeck Emrakul. You're certifiable, bro.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
When Emracool is shot down, clutch it, then pile it into those books. No sweat, Clyde.
I laughed so hard. I will admit though, Emracool is cookin'.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.