Hi all, kinda fell out of love with modern for a bit but interested again now we’ve got a challenge on our hands (and likely to be underdogs!).
Reckon I’m going to try 2x neonate and 2x burning inquiry... Combined it should cover faithless looting’s ability. I’m not sure how it’ll affect our keepable hands but the draw 3 might make our turn 2 potentially better, so thinking of burning inquiry as cathartic reunion 5-6 maybe but still with an Okish (although could be disastrous but that’s how I like to play) option for turn 1 play if we have loads of dredgers in hand. What do people think of these for keepable opener:
I was also tinking with a similar idea in the past. I was looking at Thought Scour, Tome Scour, and Glimpse the Unthinkable as ways to augment a possible Looting banning. I tried a few goldfish games and it didn't feel quiet good enough without the closing power of Conflagrate + Life from the Loam engine running. One of the interesting ideas I think I had was to transition to a mill deck game 2 and dump the Dredge package. Focusing on a UB deck using the payoffs in those colors. Hedron Crab isn't a terrible choice and has been run before.
I goldfished the follow list the other night a few games and it felt a little slower without Looting, but the choices were easier. No longer did I have to think about dropping a Prized Amalgam and Bloodghast or either of those and a Dredger. The list still presented lethal turn four and I didn't have too much trouble dumping payoffs from my hand. I've actually even considered going back to three Conflagrate to potentially help in that situation.
I heard someone mention Memory Sluice to replace Faithless Looting. What do you guys think? Keeps us in black without trying to find a new blue card. Plus it has conspire.
I heard someone mention Memory Sluice to replace Faithless Looting. What do you guys think? Keeps us in black without trying to find a new blue card. Plus it has conspire.
I remember Insolent Neonate + Golgari Thug being a barely unkeepable hand from my testing, so I'm not confident about Memory Sluice. Nonetheless, it may end up being the next best of a bad bunch...but so might Burning Inquiry?
We also got 1st place in the latest SCG Modern Classic and two Top 16 appearances in the latest MTGO Modern Challenge! All 3 lists have 4 Tome Scour subbing in for Looting.
(I'd had great results with Tome Scour since Prized Amalgam was released, but man, I didn't expect this to happen...)
What do you think about going heavier blue-based to go beyond just Tome Scour and add Hedron Crab? Hedron Crab is a strong mill engine if it sticks, but more vulnerable and may need to be considered a turn 2 enabler.
Jim Davis posted a heavier UB "Dredge" build here, but I feel like this kind of brews are clunky and need some work to smooth out.
Anyone have thoughts on the new Tormenting Voice? Instant speed seems relevant enough to consider imo. Maybe Cathartic Reunion 5-6 and cut some of the T1 enablers? Between this and Merchant of the Vale we could potentially build an instant speed Dredge deck that gives Prized Amalgam pseudo haste...seems interesting.
edit: Although the link is for a U-based Dredge deck...it wasn't the one I was referring too; here is the link for the UB version I meant to link.
Although some of the post-Looting Dredge results use Insolent Neonate instead of blue cards, I've generally found that Neonate is worse than Shriekhorn (which is worse than Tome Scour) to the point of being borderline unplayable as long as Golgari Grave-Troll is banned and we never get a second Dredge 5 card. I'm therefore not a fan of the Haggle on Merchant of the Vale--at least Neonate can block.
I'd still rather play Cathartic Reunion over any Discard 1 Draw 2 because, when I have hands with CR as my only enabler, I need to play catch-up fast on Turn 2, and CR often provides because of its additional card draw (as long as I can cast it on Turn 2).
Thank you for your input Lectrys. I concede that Tome Scour is more explosive than the other options available, however, my main draw to Insolent Neonate or Merchant of the Vale is the smoother mana base three color provides over needing to find Blue for T1, Green for T2, and double Red T3. It seems clunky, but I also haven't tried it. My argument for Merchant of the Vale over Insolent Neonate is that you can hold back information and still have instant speed dredging. If the game drags on, it seems reasonable to cast the creature half and have a looting effect on board. Lastly, the 2/3 body is better than the 1/1 if you get stuck with some graveyard hate in play and it can help dig for an answer. Looking over MTG Goldfish lists, there have been a number of 5-0's running 3x Merchant of the Vale and I'd love to hear feedback from those players on how it felt over Insolent Neonate or Tome Scour. It may ultimately come down to meta choices and personal preference than a solid "this is the correct card to play".
Hey Guys, I wanted to share this budget list with the forum. I know there has been a few people asking for ideas for a budget deck in the past so hopefully this can be a good starting point for them in the future.
I’ve tested this deck in the 1v1 practice room on MTGO with decent success (about a 50% win-rate). The main issues I’ve run into have been slow hands with all my lands entering tapped or just running out of steam. However, this deck is just over $60 USD as of today and about 11 tix online. Furthermore, it includes many of the main cards ran in a typical Dredge list, so the investment is mostly working toward the end goal. I started with a budget list by Giant Monster Games (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQq10O515A8) and worked from there based on my experience with the tiered list:
I chose Dregscape Zombie as my Bloodghast replacement. What I like about this over some of the other options is that it is only one black mana to Unearth. This opens your turn to cast another spell and still have the potential to bring back Prized Amalgam. The drawback being Unearth is a sorcery-speed ability and a one-time deal because of the exile clause. There is little we can do to speed up the sorcery-speed of the ability but managing our resources can help mitigate the one-time use.
Another card I included was Conflagrate without the Life from the Loam engine. The reason why is because found myself holding 4-5 cards I actively wanted in my graveyard. Other times it has been critical to slowing down aggressive decks while I search for payoffs. It may not be as effective at closing games, the ability to deal some damage and empty our hand felt good enough to include this Dredge staple.
The sideboard might still need some work; however, I don’t know what I would change currently. Duress is a proactive answer to enchantment-based hate. Lightning Axe is a staple card that answers mid-range threats while advancing our game plan. Nihil Spellbomb and Rakdos Charm are graveyard hate cards we can use in the mirror or against other graveyard-centic decks. I like the draw ability on Spellbomb, but Tormod's Crypt is a good option on a budget too. I really like Rakdos Charm because it can double as artifact removal if needed to supplement Shenanigans. Lastly, Pillage is for Tron or other big mana decks. Those are difficult matches and having a way to answer their lands or artifacts in one card is nice. I don’t think I would bring Pillage in as additional artifact hate versus Affinity or the like just because it would dilute our game plan too much.
Some additional notes from my testing; I tried to work in a green splash for Life from the Loam but the mana base was too clunky. I think a smooth mana base is needed before you can effectively run the green splash. I also didn’t care for Reassembling Skeleton very much. In theory it seems like an okay replacement for Bloodghast but when you pay two to bring it back and effectively lose a turn to do so it feels bad. I also found myself not using Extractor Demon very much and it was quickly replaced with Conflagrate for the above-mentioned reasons.
When upgrading, I recommend this order (with current prices per MTG Goldfish):
Second, I would swap 4x Bloodghast ($56) in over Dregscape Zombie the reason I would do this second is because Bloodghast becomes so much more powerful with the fetchlands at your disposal. Total $56 USD.
Third I would swap in 4x Life from the Loam ($57) and the rest of the manabase you are missing (about $58, depending of your list); replacing 2x Darkblast, 1x Golgari Thug, 1x Merchant of the Vale, 2x Dakmor Salvage, and basics. The reason I would clump all this upgrade together is because adding a main deck green card that you actively want to cast will require a heavy investment in green mana sources, so Copperline Gorge ($45) becomes necessary to smooth things out. You might be able to get away with a Rootbound Crag but it will likely slow you down. Total $117 USD.
Keep in mind you can trade and upgrade however you like as trades and money permit; that manabase hurdle is a big one, but I think it’s worth it to smooth out the deck and keep pace with the format. Most of that is rolled into the fetchlands and I haven’t tested running Bloodghast without fetches. It may be something to try out in the future.
I hope this helps people getting into the archetype and please let me know if you have any other budget suggestions to consider! Happy Gaming!
i was looking for a primer and both the Ultimate dredge guide from zen takashi on mtgmint and the long primer from jim davis on starcity are no longer aviable..coincidence ? does someone know why ?
is it just a coincidence ? the only guides i can find online for free are the one from andrea mengucci and the one from oliver tomajko both on channel fireball...does someone know any other good primer/article ?
I was wonder if anyone has tried out the new card Ox of Agonas? I know the exile 8 cards is alot but I feel like it could be power and a big creature.
I haven't tried Ox of Agonas yet, but my experience with Haunted Dead is that I often used its discard ability because I wasn't hitting 8 cards in my graveyard fast enough. I believe Ox of Agonas will be deceptively bad in Dredge for this reason.
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Reckon I’m going to try 2x neonate and 2x burning inquiry... Combined it should cover faithless looting’s ability. I’m not sure how it’ll affect our keepable hands but the draw 3 might make our turn 2 potentially better, so thinking of burning inquiry as cathartic reunion 5-6 maybe but still with an Okish (although could be disastrous but that’s how I like to play) option for turn 1 play if we have loads of dredgers in hand. What do people think of these for keepable opener:
Shriekhorn + burning inquiry
Neonate + burning inquiry + big dredger
Shriekhorn + cathartic reunion
Neonate + cathartic reunion
I think moving to more thoughtseize in the sideboard might also be a good shout to try and protect us being more explosive...?
I not sure what to do with conflagrate, either you use a rainbow mana base or search for another wincon, What do all you think?
2 Force of Negation
4 Thought Scour
4 Shriekhorn
don't @ me
no looting? ok, we don't need drop1 at all
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
lands
2 Mountain
1 Arid Mesa
2 Blood Crypt
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Gemstone Mine
2 Stomping Ground
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Cathartic Reunion
2 Conflagrate
2 Creeping Chill
3 Life from the Loam
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tormenting Voice
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Creeping Chill
2 Shenanigans
2 Thoughtseize
1 Blast Zone
What do you guys think about playing a couple of Deep Analysis besides Insolent Neonate to fill the role of looting?
Deep analysis isn’t legal in modern AFAIK. Sorry.
I goldfished the follow list the other night a few games and it felt a little slower without Looting, but the choices were easier. No longer did I have to think about dropping a Prized Amalgam and Bloodghast or either of those and a Dredger. The list still presented lethal turn four and I didn't have too much trouble dumping payoffs from my hand. I've actually even considered going back to three Conflagrate to potentially help in that situation.
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Life from the Loam
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
PAYOFF:
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba
4 Creeping Chill
2 Conflagrate
ENABLER:
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Cathartic Reunion
3 Shriekhorn
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
1 Gemstone Mine
3 Copperline Gorge
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Fiery Islet
1 Leyline of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Lightning Axe
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Shenanigans
1 Assassin's Trophy
2 Darkblast
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
I remember Insolent Neonate + Golgari Thug being a barely unkeepable hand from my testing, so I'm not confident about Memory Sluice. Nonetheless, it may end up being the next best of a bad bunch...but so might Burning Inquiry?
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Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
(I'd had great results with Tome Scour since Prized Amalgam was released, but man, I didn't expect this to happen...)
I noticed an article by Jim Davis suggesting the crab (https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/jimdavis-09062019-faithless-looting-replacements-updating-dredge-izzet-phoenix-and-mardu-pyromancer). And, I see at least one MTGO list (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-ubrg-96294#online).
I am wondering if the Vengevine lists are better, but feel that the Life from the Loam / Conflagrate package is still strong.
I am going to be testing the following list:
4 Bloodghast
4 Hedron Crab
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Conflagrate
4 Life from the Loam
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Creeping Chill
4 Tome Scour
1 Breeding Pool
1 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
2 Stomping Ground
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Alpine Moon
1 Nature's Claim
3 Lightning Axe
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Spell Pierce
1 Blast Zone
Anyone have thoughts on the new Tormenting Voice? Instant speed seems relevant enough to consider imo. Maybe Cathartic Reunion 5-6 and cut some of the T1 enablers? Between this and Merchant of the Vale we could potentially build an instant speed Dredge deck that gives Prized Amalgam pseudo haste...seems interesting.
edit: Although the link is for a U-based Dredge deck...it wasn't the one I was referring too; here is the link for the UB version I meant to link.
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
I'd still rather play Cathartic Reunion over any Discard 1 Draw 2 because, when I have hands with CR as my only enabler, I need to play catch-up fast on Turn 2, and CR often provides because of its additional card draw (as long as I can cast it on Turn 2).
In regards to Thrill of Possibility, I agree Cathartic Reunion is much better. I was looking more at Thrill of Possibility as a fifth or sixth Cathartic Reunion more than as a replacement. The idea being 6-7 T1 enablers and another 5-6 T2 enablers to help offset the lack of draw two Faithless Looting left behind.
Here is the list I plan to run next FNM:
4 Bloodghast
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Merchant of the Vale
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
SPELLS:
2 Conflagrate
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Life from the Loam
4 Creeping Chill
ARTIFACTS:
4 Shriekhorn
1 Blast Zone
2 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Copperline Gorge
3 Forgotten Cave
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Mountain
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Stomping Ground
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Darkblast
3 Lightning Axe
3 Nature's Claim
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Shenanigans
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
I’ve tested this deck in the 1v1 practice room on MTGO with decent success (about a 50% win-rate). The main issues I’ve run into have been slow hands with all my lands entering tapped or just running out of steam. However, this deck is just over $60 USD as of today and about 11 tix online. Furthermore, it includes many of the main cards ran in a typical Dredge list, so the investment is mostly working toward the end goal. I started with a budget list by Giant Monster Games (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQq10O515A8) and worked from there based on my experience with the tiered list:
4 Swamp
6 Mountain
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Smoldering Marsh
2 Foreboding Ruins
2 Dakmor Salvage
Dredge:
2 Darkblast
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shriekhorn
4 Merchant of the Vale
4 Cathartic Reunion
2 Conflagrate
Payoffs:
4 Dregscape Zombie
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba
4 Creeping Chill
3 Lightning Axe
2 Shenanigans
1 Rakdos Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Duress
3 Pillage
I chose Dregscape Zombie as my Bloodghast replacement. What I like about this over some of the other options is that it is only one black mana to Unearth. This opens your turn to cast another spell and still have the potential to bring back Prized Amalgam. The drawback being Unearth is a sorcery-speed ability and a one-time deal because of the exile clause. There is little we can do to speed up the sorcery-speed of the ability but managing our resources can help mitigate the one-time use.
Another card I included was Conflagrate without the Life from the Loam engine. The reason why is because found myself holding 4-5 cards I actively wanted in my graveyard. Other times it has been critical to slowing down aggressive decks while I search for payoffs. It may not be as effective at closing games, the ability to deal some damage and empty our hand felt good enough to include this Dredge staple.
The sideboard might still need some work; however, I don’t know what I would change currently. Duress is a proactive answer to enchantment-based hate. Lightning Axe is a staple card that answers mid-range threats while advancing our game plan. Nihil Spellbomb and Rakdos Charm are graveyard hate cards we can use in the mirror or against other graveyard-centic decks. I like the draw ability on Spellbomb, but Tormod's Crypt is a good option on a budget too. I really like Rakdos Charm because it can double as artifact removal if needed to supplement Shenanigans. Lastly, Pillage is for Tron or other big mana decks. Those are difficult matches and having a way to answer their lands or artifacts in one card is nice. I don’t think I would bring Pillage in as additional artifact hate versus Affinity or the like just because it would dilute our game plan too much.
Some additional notes from my testing; I tried to work in a green splash for Life from the Loam but the mana base was too clunky. I think a smooth mana base is needed before you can effectively run the green splash. I also didn’t care for Reassembling Skeleton very much. In theory it seems like an okay replacement for Bloodghast but when you pay two to bring it back and effectively lose a turn to do so it feels bad. I also found myself not using Extractor Demon very much and it was quickly replaced with Conflagrate for the above-mentioned reasons.
When upgrading, I recommend this order (with current prices per MTG Goldfish):
First, and this is one of the biggest steps, I would upgrade the mana base. Adding in 5-6 fetchlands and 2 Blood Crypt, maybe also considering 2 Stomping Ground so you can work Nature's Claim and Ancient Grudge into the sideboard. 4x Bloodstained Mire ($108), 2x Wooded Foothills ($80), 2x Blood Crypt ($26), and 2x Stomping Ground ($22). Remove Smoldering Marsh, Foreboding Ruins, Dragonskull Summit, and basics. Total $236 USD.
Second, I would swap 4x Bloodghast ($56) in over Dregscape Zombie the reason I would do this second is because Bloodghast becomes so much more powerful with the fetchlands at your disposal. Total $56 USD.
Third I would swap in 4x Life from the Loam ($57) and the rest of the manabase you are missing (about $58, depending of your list); replacing 2x Darkblast, 1x Golgari Thug, 1x Merchant of the Vale, 2x Dakmor Salvage, and basics. The reason I would clump all this upgrade together is because adding a main deck green card that you actively want to cast will require a heavy investment in green mana sources, so Copperline Gorge ($45) becomes necessary to smooth things out. You might be able to get away with a Rootbound Crag but it will likely slow you down. Total $117 USD.
Keep in mind you can trade and upgrade however you like as trades and money permit; that manabase hurdle is a big one, but I think it’s worth it to smooth out the deck and keep pace with the format. Most of that is rolled into the fetchlands and I haven’t tested running Bloodghast without fetches. It may be something to try out in the future.
I hope this helps people getting into the archetype and please let me know if you have any other budget suggestions to consider! Happy Gaming!
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
i was looking for a primer and both the Ultimate dredge guide from zen takashi on mtgmint and the long primer from jim davis on starcity are no longer aviable..coincidence ? does someone know why ?
is it just a coincidence ? the only guides i can find online for free are the one from andrea mengucci and the one from oliver tomajko both on channel fireball...does someone know any other good primer/article ?
I would recommend Sodek MTG on YouTube. He also has a number of game play videos on his channel. Unfortunately I havent seen anything more up-to-date.
Dredge Primer: https://youtu.be/Vxf0EpoDycY
Post-Ban with Tome Scour: https://youtu.be/F163ZkjsmGA
Post-Ban with Merchant of the Vale:
https://youtu.be/Hg9gqlymSWw
CrabVine (if you are interested in varients):
https://youtu.be/M2KvXFrYRAs
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
I haven't tried Ox of Agonas yet, but my experience with Haunted Dead is that I often used its discard ability because I wasn't hitting 8 cards in my graveyard fast enough. I believe Ox of Agonas will be deceptively bad in Dredge for this reason.