Just some notes on the lists we are seeing more now:
- The Primer recommends 13-15 Dredge cards, however most lists have cut down to 10-12 to make room for Creeping Chill. Also, Dakmor Salvage seems to have fallen out of favor - however I think it's still pretty important.
- Shriekhorn has replaced Insolent Neonate in most lists that I've seen. The reasoning being that without Troll anymore, the explosiveness of Neonate has faded.
I don't like the idea of cutting any Thoughtseize from my board because of the versatility it can provide. Bringing in a single Ghost Quarter to combat Tron seems lack-luster to me and a bit slow. There are a few other decks where Ghost Quarter can be helpful, but overall how quickly can you bring it online? The earliest I can see, without drawing it naturally in your opening hand, is turn 3. Even then, it's pending you have Life from the Loam AND dredged over the Ghost Quarter before making your turn 3 land drop. Tron is a bad matchup and I don't want to discourage innovation to try and improve the match; however, I think that Creeping Chill has vastly helped us race decks like Tron and lead to going all in and hope they don't drop a timely Relic of Progenitus. The best cards to bring in for Tron is your artifact hate of choice, generally some number of Ancient Grudge or Nature's Claim and Thoughtseize. Disrupting their ability to effectively assemble Tron or having anything relevent to play with all that mana is key to winning. Here is my current list if you'd like to see my board. Unfortunately, I only get to Modern once a month so I don't get to practice too frequently. I have gone 3-0 for the last two FNM's I did attend however running this list (minus the Steam Vents change I made to see how much I'd miss Gemstone Mine). I hope this helps and let me know if you'd like anymore of my opinions regarding the board. Happy Gaming!
I have picked up Dredge and absolutely love it. thanks to part_timeMTG who helped me figure out my mana base. Glad to see we dodged a ban today. I ran my first MTGO Friendly League and went 3-2 (strong chance it could be a 4-1, made a mistake against Tron). I had a dud of match against Amulet Titan, my sideboard was not very well prepared. Currently running 4x Nature's Claim, 3x Ancient Gruded, 2x Darkblast, 1 Assassin's Trophy,3x Lightning Axe and 2 Damping Sphere. Ghost Quarter seems good, would 2x be too many? Also I see some list with 1x Thoughtseize, is this just a prayer it starts in our opening hand? Any thoughts or insight on how I should adjust my sideboard?
I'm glad you like the deck, psychedlicgerm and I'm happy my post helped. Both Tron and Amulet Titan (or other big mana decks like Titan Shift) are difficult matches. Generally they can over the top with large threats and run main deck hate in the form of Relic of Progenitus. I personally think Ghost Quarter is too slow; as I pointed out earlier, without naturally drawing it on your initial draws, it will be turn 3 before you can get it online with Life from the Loam. Assassin's Trophy seems more universal (hitting various forms of grave hate) and can start putting Tron off lands as early as turn 2. I haven’t tried out Assassin's Trophy yet, but I like how it isn't as narrow and I'd run 2 of those instead of making room for Ghost Quarter.
The second thing I'd like to mention is how much anti-hate cards your running overall. I understand we are a graveyard based deck and effects that remove that resource have a major impact on us, but 7 dedicated slots seems like too much. I like running 2-3 Nature's Claim, 1-2 Ancient Grudge, and use the extra room to buffer other matches with universal hate such as Assassin's Trophy or Thoughtseize .
Regarding Thoughtseize, I like running 3 in the board. It generally come in versus Combo decks, big mana decks, and any Wx deck that may be running Rest in Peace. Versus combo, we gain access to disruption to buy a turn or two and possibly close things out before they find a key card. Versus big mana we take the treats away before they hit the battlefield – again possibly buying a turn or two. Versus Wx, we have the potential of stripping the best graveyard hate card before they can cast it. There has been a few games where I’ve played where my opponent keeps a bad hand with Rest in Peace hoping that will stop the Dredge and a turn 1 Thoughtseize wins the game.
Hope this helps ya figure out some sideboard options! Happy Gaming!
Thanks so much again part_timeMTG. Once I finish up this league I will swap over and try your suggestions in the side board. I see you run no Damping Sphere, just curious what your thoughts are on it. Also would a single engineered explosives be a bad call in the side board? I could see value against a couple decks I have run into on MTGO. Here is what I am kicking around in terms of a sideboard, open to feedback: 3x Thoughtseize, 2x Ancient Grudge, 2x Assassin's Trophy, 2x Nature's Claim, 1x Engineered Explosive, 3x Lightning Axe, 2x Nihil Spellbomb. The last three I would be flexible on and switching Damping Sphere back in.
Also is there a tutorial on how to format forum post?
Engineered Explosives seems fine for taking out various problems. I've never tested it out before so I don't have any solid opinions on how good it could be. The pros are that it can take out a lot of problems and comes down early if you draw it. It is in Takahashi list for the sideboard guide he made earlier this year. Looks strongest versus Boggles, Death Shadow, Lantern, and Humans (all of which lean on 1 and 2 drops). Maybe if you are seeing those a lot, consider it? Damping Sphere seems sweet if you expect a lot of Storm or KCI. You also get some disruption for Tron as an added bonus. Again, I've never tested it so I don't have any solid opinions on it. I think all things considered, I prefer disruption that can help continue my game plan while stopping my opponent and their hate cards more than just disrupting their deck.
Thanks again part_timeMTG for everything. I have had two runs of 3-2 in the Friendly League using original sideboard that had a lot of artifact/enchantment hate. I have been testing using your sideboard recommendations and love Thoughtseize. Felt so good stripping a Mono Green Tron's hand on back to back turns. I still a couple more games to test the Engineered Explosives, but I think it has a ton of value. Felt great to clear two Rest in Peace my UW control opponent played back to back. In my current matches up on MTGO I feel that I get much more utility out of Damping Sphere then Nihil Spellbomb. I am sure there will be times this decision results in a couple auto losses but I feel like across the board I have a much stronger sideboard plan. Now I just need talk myself in buying those Gemstone Mine on MTGO but 17 tickets for a land hurts haha.
@psychedlicgerm – no problem, glad to give you my perspective on sideboards and manabases. I’m happy you are liking Thoughtseize out of the board. I don’t have any Storm players in my local meta and the KCI player recently moved away so Damping Sphere isn’t really needed for me, but if you find it helpful then certainly run it in the board and let me know how well it works in the matchups!
@Loraik – If cutting a Life from the Loam works for you, then just play it that way. I think an extra Golgari Thug is more important if you are running the lower dredge count of 10 cards. I prefer to run more dredgers in my version because it also increases the chances to chain dredgers. I geeked out a bit and ran some numbers through the Hypergeometric Distribution Calculator on StatTrek and found that the % to chain with more Thugs and 10 Dredgers was slightly higher than running 12 Dredgers with more Loams. Both were less than 60% though. I was actually recently considering posting why I think Darkblast should be a 2-of in the main a few days ago and that kind of fits into this conversation as well as I was planning on making an argument for cutting 1 Thug…
I cut my Gogari Thugs down to 1 and upped Darkblast to 2 because I find the latter to be more useful to cast during a game. Per MTG Goldfish (as of November 2018) Darkblast can kill 7 of the top 10 most played creatures in Modern. Looking over the entire list, I believe the number increases to 32 out of 50 (counting Hangarback Walker and Walking Ballista). This is a huge number of potential, main deck targets for Darkblast to hit. Also, given that it only costs B, you can kill an early Noble Hierarch and set up your initial Dredge while putting your opponent back a turn. I haven’t noticed a significant hit in my ability to Dredge, although I do like running 12 Dredge cards instead of 10 and I really think I’d like to try and push that number to 13 at some point in the future. An additional edge Darkblast gives is the ability to kill your own Bloodghasts in response or to set up future Prized Amalgam triggers. I’d love to hear some others input on this. I know a lot of people love the higher Dredge count Golgari Thug offers, but isn’t just a straight increase in the quality of your Dredge cards AND quantity of them per deck just as valid? Maybe the correct answer is to run both as a 2 of and cut somewhere else? Looking again at the distribution - Dredging 4 cards with 10 in the deck gives you a 55% to continue the chain while Dredging 4 cards with 13 in the deck increases the chances to 67%. That’s significant increase in my opinion.
Either way, I look forward to other comments on this topic. For reference, I've attempted to attach my spreadsheet regarding the chances of having a Dredger in the opening hand, within the first 9 cards (based of Turn 1 Faithless Looting or Shriekhorn), and the chance of hitting another dredge card with Dredge 3, 4, 5 pending there are 51 cards remaining in the deck - perhaps for a Turn 2 Cathartic Reunion. Happy Gaming!
Thanks for the breakdown part_timeMTG, I am going to try out the 13 dredgers package either at FNM or a Friendly League and cut Shriekhorn down to 2 of in the deck. I got a full Friendly League in yesterday in the afternoon, which apparently is when all the grinders are on (every opponent had multiple 5-0 runs including a match against the current leader who has 25). I ended up going 1-4 but learned a lot, I think the explosiveness of the deck should be maximized for Game 1 and we should be all in since game 2 and 3 can be such an uphill battle and why I want to try 13 dredgers. Also playing against the grinders helped me realize how I need to improve in my mulligan decision making and increase my knowledge of individual match ups. In the past I have been able to get away with sub par hands due to playing lower level of competition, but I was punished hard for keeping below average hands. Also in games two and three when is it appropriate to skip the dredge to dig for sideboard cards or even using reunion or faithless to dig?
I think skipping the dredge is very open to debate as each situation may be different. Just one example would be how many Creeping Chill's are left in the deck and life total of your opponent? I dont think there is a solid answer to that particular question.
BR Hollow One is the aggressor. We really just need to effectively answer their threats and wait for our mid- to late- game engine to take over. Sometime they just land a perfect hand and we can't really stop them. Seems like post-board you'll want to bring in Ancient Grudge, Nature's Claim, and Lightning Axe to help play the control role and answer graveyard hate. Also remember you can dredge off the Burning Inquiry which can enable us effectively early game.
Thanks for the insight regarding Sheltered Thicket. I suspected it was a bit slow overall but have kept one set aside just in case. I'd be interested in seeing one mana cycle lands, such as Barren Moor, come into the format. I don't know if it would make a massive difference but is seems like I'm more likely to pass the turn with one mana open than two or more most turns.
(edit) Regarding Leyline of the Void:
I think the biggest upside it that it comes down before the game starts and needs to be answered before most graveyard decks can operate. The other question is whether to run 1 or 4 in the board. In general, the arguments are as follows:
- Run 4 to maximize the chance of seeing Leyline of the Void in your opening hand.
- Run 1, if you see it great, otherwise your are not hindering your engine very much and can try to race. This is more true feeling in the mirror where your opponent may bring in up to 7 sideboard cards (Leyline of the Void and Nature's Claim most likely) and you're only siding in answers to the Leyline.
Surgical Extraction is an okay card too, but a bit more narrow in my opinion for our deck. It seems to shine when you're combating combo decks where you can strip key cards or versus Tron to destroy and remove Urza lands (not something I think this deck wants to do, just saying in general). I currently don't run any graveyard hate, but my meta doesnt' really utilitize the graveyard enough for me to. A lot of creature aggro, burn, some control, and a smattering of various combo decks. I usually fall on the "I'll bring in anti-hate cards and race" line.
I also like Nihil Spellbomb because of the potential to draw a card, but it seems most people think it's too slow and a worse Tormod's Crypt because it costs one mana. I can see the arguement there, I'd rather play a zero mana graveyard hate card in conjuctions with a T1 enabler like Shriekhorn or Faithless Looting over spending my T1 playing a hate card and possibly having to crack it without the mana to replace it before T2. If I was going to a larger event, I think I'd just find room in my board for some Leyline of the Void's, however I'm unsure how many at the moment.
Went 2-1 at FNM last night, wasn't as many people but I did get to play on camera if anyone is interested. Spoiler alert, I lost that match - BUT I did have an amazing T2 on the first game. My match starts as 1:02:00 and I'll edit this with the youtube video when they post it. Game 2 was very long as my opponent was trying to piece together a win and took a lengthy turn...just letting ya know ahead of time.
Match 1 vs. Burn
Game 1: I lost the roll, but kept a decent 7. My opponent plays a T1 Goblin Guide and allows me to gain an extra Stomping Ground. I play a Shriekhorn and pass. The Guides second attack reveals a Creeping Chill so I activate the Horn binning 2 Creeping Chill's. T2 I cast Cathartic Reunion and put a number of Narcomoeba's into play and eventually grind him out.
Game 2: My opponent had an aggressive start with Goblin Guide T1, into Goblin Guide T2. I had a T2 or T3 Collective Brutality to answer one of the Guides, gain some life, and saw his hand was double Bolt and Skullcrack. Despite setting up a big Dredge for my next turn, I choose to hinder mana efficiency by taking a Bolt. In hind-sight I think maybe the Skullcrack would have been correct as hitting multiple Chills would have been good. I won the game, but I was at 1 life and gave my opponent one top deck to see if they had it, they only drew a land.
Match 2 vs. Grishoalbrand - I was on camra here
Game 1: I had an amazing start that lead to 16 damage on T2 thanks to hitting all my Creeping Chill's.
Game 2 and 3: I lost in a miserable fashion both games. Game 2 I ripped his hand apart with Thoughtseize, but he top decked for the win. Game 3 I mulled to 4, and didn't do anything relevant.
Match 3 vs. Gruul Aggro
Game 1: I out grinded my opponet and hit some Chills on the way. Ending the game at 21.
Game 2: I think my opponent misplayed, he had an early Scavenging Ooze but didn't eat the correct cards in my graveyard. My notes show me winning around T4. I explained to him how I'd use Scooze in this matchup, hopefully it helps him in future matches.
Overall, a good night. I did have one moment (on camra, game 3) where Steam Vents was less perferable over Gemstone Mine or other rainbow lands. I don't think it would have mattered in that matchup, as my hand wasn't very good and I did mull to 4. I plan to keep the Vents in for now and see when it is better than other options.
Hope this helps and look forward to feedback if y'all have any. Happy Gaming!
Welcome to the forum Tomei93! I don't think there is a dedicated sideboard guide currently; however, the previous ones aren't too bad. The main consideration you need to make is how much of each part of the engine you feel like cutting for sideboard answers. As I think has been stated on here before, you generally cut one Dredge card, one Looting effect, and one payoff (such as Bloodghast) to make room for your preferred artifact and/or enchantment hate. Some cards, such as Lightning Axe, can replace an entire part of the engine as it provides a similar affect along with another benefit - in this case a discard outlet and removal spell.
If you're looking for a more indepth, match analysis sort of guide, then I think you may be out of luck currently.
I'd argue most combo decks that go off before we can get set up. Amulet Titan or Scapeshift decks, Storm, and KCI come to mind. I think Humans and Spirits is winnable but tough and very back and forth at times. Burn used to be a race, but Creeping Chill has helped with that match - I think if you are playing against an experienced Burn player it can still be a challenge.
True, so I'm thinking about cutting from 3 to 2 and add a Ghost Quarter for the Side maybe?
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
I have picked up Dredge and absolutely love it. thanks to part_timeMTG who helped me figure out my mana base. Glad to see we dodged a ban today. I ran my first MTGO Friendly League and went 3-2 (strong chance it could be a 4-1, made a mistake against Tron). I had a dud of match against Amulet Titan, my sideboard was not very well prepared. Currently running 4x Nature's Claim, 3x Ancient Gruded, 2x Darkblast, 1 Assassin's Trophy,3x Lightning Axe and 2 Damping Sphere. Ghost Quarter seems good, would 2x be too many? Also I see some list with 1x Thoughtseize, is this just a prayer it starts in our opening hand? Any thoughts or insight on how I should adjust my sideboard?
The second thing I'd like to mention is how much anti-hate cards your running overall. I understand we are a graveyard based deck and effects that remove that resource have a major impact on us, but 7 dedicated slots seems like too much. I like running 2-3 Nature's Claim, 1-2 Ancient Grudge, and use the extra room to buffer other matches with universal hate such as Assassin's Trophy or Thoughtseize .
Regarding Thoughtseize, I like running 3 in the board. It generally come in versus Combo decks, big mana decks, and any Wx deck that may be running Rest in Peace. Versus combo, we gain access to disruption to buy a turn or two and possibly close things out before they find a key card. Versus big mana we take the treats away before they hit the battlefield – again possibly buying a turn or two. Versus Wx, we have the potential of stripping the best graveyard hate card before they can cast it. There has been a few games where I’ve played where my opponent keeps a bad hand with Rest in Peace hoping that will stop the Dredge and a turn 1 Thoughtseize wins the game.
Hope this helps ya figure out some sideboard options! Happy Gaming!
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
Also is there a tutorial on how to format forum post?
I really like Lightning Axe for midrange decks. The ability to kill Scavenging Ooze after it's eaten a few creatures is nice. Plus, it's a clean answer to Gurmag Angler, Hollow One, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, or Death's Shadow. Generally I side out Shriekhorn for them in Games 2/3.
Here is a link to some formatting tips.
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
@Loraik – If cutting a Life from the Loam works for you, then just play it that way. I think an extra Golgari Thug is more important if you are running the lower dredge count of 10 cards. I prefer to run more dredgers in my version because it also increases the chances to chain dredgers. I geeked out a bit and ran some numbers through the Hypergeometric Distribution Calculator on StatTrek and found that the % to chain with more Thugs and 10 Dredgers was slightly higher than running 12 Dredgers with more Loams. Both were less than 60% though. I was actually recently considering posting why I think Darkblast should be a 2-of in the main a few days ago and that kind of fits into this conversation as well as I was planning on making an argument for cutting 1 Thug…
I cut my Gogari Thugs down to 1 and upped Darkblast to 2 because I find the latter to be more useful to cast during a game. Per MTG Goldfish (as of November 2018) Darkblast can kill 7 of the top 10 most played creatures in Modern. Looking over the entire list, I believe the number increases to 32 out of 50 (counting Hangarback Walker and Walking Ballista). This is a huge number of potential, main deck targets for Darkblast to hit. Also, given that it only costs B, you can kill an early Noble Hierarch and set up your initial Dredge while putting your opponent back a turn. I haven’t noticed a significant hit in my ability to Dredge, although I do like running 12 Dredge cards instead of 10 and I really think I’d like to try and push that number to 13 at some point in the future. An additional edge Darkblast gives is the ability to kill your own Bloodghasts in response or to set up future Prized Amalgam triggers. I’d love to hear some others input on this. I know a lot of people love the higher Dredge count Golgari Thug offers, but isn’t just a straight increase in the quality of your Dredge cards AND quantity of them per deck just as valid? Maybe the correct answer is to run both as a 2 of and cut somewhere else? Looking again at the distribution - Dredging 4 cards with 10 in the deck gives you a 55% to continue the chain while Dredging 4 cards with 13 in the deck increases the chances to 67%. That’s significant increase in my opinion.
Either way, I look forward to other comments on this topic. For reference, I've attempted to attach my spreadsheet regarding the chances of having a Dredger in the opening hand, within the first 9 cards (based of Turn 1 Faithless Looting or Shriekhorn), and the chance of hitting another dredge card with Dredge 3, 4, 5 pending there are 51 cards remaining in the deck - perhaps for a Turn 2 Cathartic Reunion. Happy Gaming!
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
Also any advice for the BR Hollow One match up?
BR Hollow One is the aggressor. We really just need to effectively answer their threats and wait for our mid- to late- game engine to take over. Sometime they just land a perfect hand and we can't really stop them. Seems like post-board you'll want to bring in Ancient Grudge, Nature's Claim, and Lightning Axe to help play the control role and answer graveyard hate. Also remember you can dredge off the Burning Inquiry which can enable us effectively early game.
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
in preparation for GP Liverpool i placed 1st in a 116 player tournament.
Trader Liga Dülmen
Green @ it's best
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
Well deserved 1st place! Also: spicy 61 cards
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
Legacy:
GElvesG
Hello,
no, i recently switched Sheltered Thicket for a second copy of Blackcleave Cliffs.
THicket was sweet, but didn't improve the deck significantly
Edit:
What's the upside of playing Leyline over sth. like Surgical or Spellbomb?
Green @ it's best
(edit) Regarding Leyline of the Void:
I think the biggest upside it that it comes down before the game starts and needs to be answered before most graveyard decks can operate. The other question is whether to run 1 or 4 in the board. In general, the arguments are as follows:
- Run 4 to maximize the chance of seeing Leyline of the Void in your opening hand.
- Run 1, if you see it great, otherwise your are not hindering your engine very much and can try to race. This is more true feeling in the mirror where your opponent may bring in up to 7 sideboard cards (Leyline of the Void and Nature's Claim most likely) and you're only siding in answers to the Leyline.
Surgical Extraction is an okay card too, but a bit more narrow in my opinion for our deck. It seems to shine when you're combating combo decks where you can strip key cards or versus Tron to destroy and remove Urza lands (not something I think this deck wants to do, just saying in general). I currently don't run any graveyard hate, but my meta doesnt' really utilitize the graveyard enough for me to. A lot of creature aggro, burn, some control, and a smattering of various combo decks. I usually fall on the "I'll bring in anti-hate cards and race" line.
I also like Nihil Spellbomb because of the potential to draw a card, but it seems most people think it's too slow and a worse Tormod's Crypt because it costs one mana. I can see the arguement there, I'd rather play a zero mana graveyard hate card in conjuctions with a T1 enabler like Shriekhorn or Faithless Looting over spending my T1 playing a hate card and possibly having to crack it without the mana to replace it before T2. If I was going to a larger event, I think I'd just find room in my board for some Leyline of the Void's, however I'm unsure how many at the moment.
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
Match 1 vs. Burn
Game 1: I lost the roll, but kept a decent 7. My opponent plays a T1 Goblin Guide and allows me to gain an extra Stomping Ground. I play a Shriekhorn and pass. The Guides second attack reveals a Creeping Chill so I activate the Horn binning 2 Creeping Chill's. T2 I cast Cathartic Reunion and put a number of Narcomoeba's into play and eventually grind him out.
I board in 3x Collective Brutality, 2x Nature's Claim, and 1x Abrupt Decay and side out 3x Shriekhorn, 1x Golgari Thug, 1x Faithless Looting, 1x Cathartic Reunion.
Game 2: My opponent had an aggressive start with Goblin Guide T1, into Goblin Guide T2. I had a T2 or T3 Collective Brutality to answer one of the Guides, gain some life, and saw his hand was double Bolt and Skullcrack. Despite setting up a big Dredge for my next turn, I choose to hinder mana efficiency by taking a Bolt. In hind-sight I think maybe the Skullcrack would have been correct as hitting multiple Chills would have been good. I won the game, but I was at 1 life and gave my opponent one top deck to see if they had it, they only drew a land.
Match 2 vs. Grishoalbrand - I was on camra here
Game 1: I had an amazing start that lead to 16 damage on T2 thanks to hitting all my Creeping Chill's.
Game 2 and 3: I lost in a miserable fashion both games. Game 2 I ripped his hand apart with Thoughtseize, but he top decked for the win. Game 3 I mulled to 4, and didn't do anything relevant.
Match 3 vs. Gruul Aggro
Game 1: I out grinded my opponet and hit some Chills on the way. Ending the game at 21.
Game 2: I think my opponent misplayed, he had an early Scavenging Ooze but didn't eat the correct cards in my graveyard. My notes show me winning around T4. I explained to him how I'd use Scooze in this matchup, hopefully it helps him in future matches.
Overall, a good night. I did have one moment (on camra, game 3) where Steam Vents was less perferable over Gemstone Mine or other rainbow lands. I don't think it would have mattered in that matchup, as my hand wasn't very good and I did mull to 4. I plan to keep the Vents in for now and see when it is better than other options.
Hope this helps and look forward to feedback if y'all have any. Happy Gaming!
Edit: Now with YouTube link!
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
If you're looking for a more indepth, match analysis sort of guide, then I think you may be out of luck currently.
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher