So the way I see it the possible cards to cut given a certain situation are:
1-2 Shriekhorn
1-2 Golgari Thug
1 Life from the Loam (Sodeq doesn't suggest this though, so I'll also avoid this probably)
1 Reunion
1 Narcomoeba
1 Bloodghast
1 Conflagrate
1 Mountain on draw not up against FoR/Path etc.
Anything else?
Also, what is a typical amount to sideboard in this deck? Like, say we are up against KCI or Hardened Scales and have 4 Claims and 3 Grudges in the SB. Do we side all 7 cards in?
Honestly when I compare dredge to bridgevine (at least sodeq's list), I'm finding the opposite. Dredge is significantly stronger against some grave hate (nihil spellbomb, surgical, relic of progenitus) while also maintaining nature's claim for more punishing hate cards (leyline of the void, rest in peace). The main reason being that your persistent threat of Conflagrate/Creeping chill provides reach which Bridgevine lacks. A single sweeper can stop bridgevine quite significantly, as it doesn't have a continuous value engine, it relies on the opening burst of cards in the yard.
Bridgevine is much faster, though perhaps I'm just bad at dredge (or cockatrice hates me)? Even with chill, it seems that dredge is turn 5ish with no disruption from the couple 10s of goldfishes i did. Bridgevine is something like 3.5 given my tournament experience.
Also, why is it everyone seems to run 4 life from the loam as a pose to 3 life/ 1 more thug or something? Is it just very valuable to have in your hand?
Stille_Nacht, I've found that Loam is just so much more useful than Thug most of the time. Thug is just worse Imp when you don't have Imp. Loam is so important to facilitating different parts of the deck that we want to minimize the times we don't have it. Yes, Thug technically finds the Loams faster, but 1 extra milled card is negligible.
Also, I think its worthwhile to trim a Creeping Chill in Jund/GBx matchups. We need to optimize relevant cards, and Scavenging Ooze can eat Chill on the stack.
@FlyingDelver I havent played vs KCI since the one KCI player we had moved off island, but, wouldn't Ancient Grudge and your graveyard hate cards work better? There is probably also a case to run Thoughtsieze as it can snag an early Ironworks. I found that two Ancient Grudge and an extra Darkblast was enough for Hardened Scales Affinity; although it may have been my experience in play and sequencing that won me the game over all. I just dont worry about a big Arcbound Ravenger and time my removal in response to the Ravenger being sacrificed to itself.
I have found Loam to be very important to ensure you can build Conflagrate to lethal amounts, hit land drops or buyback Gemstone Mine, or trigger Bloodghast. The later is also a reason I still run a single Dakmore Salvage in the 75.
Hey there, i tried to write down some lines for a SB guide. In the second page of the document there is the list im currently using. Bear with me im no pro so any advice, feedback, changes are open for discussion. Dredge SB Guide
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I see so it's better to side out a reunion instead of loam? I've written it based also on the Takahashi guide 27/2/18 because i saw that in some match ups he side out Loam like affinity, bogles, taxes etc.
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Takahashi is running 13 Dredge cards within his deck whereas alot of these new lists are running 10, which seems low already for a deck relying on the mechanic. Cutting Dredge cards post-board seems wrong when we need the mechanic to operate effectively. Also note that he usually sides in Darkblast when he sides out Loam or another dredger. I generally cut my Thugs before I look at cutting a Loam, but I think Loam is just a better card when you need to cast it.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
I put Shriekhorn into the enabler category, but it's also our worse enabler as we cant draw off it outside of milling four cards before the normal draw step. Therefore, I cut one and havent really noticed any terribly slow starts. My other cut was swapping a fetch for a Dakmor Salvage. Again, Dredge 2 isnt where you typical want to be, but the ability to get a land without needing to cast Loam has come up more than once in recent games; generally after seeing multiple threats hit the yard on an earlier dredge and wanting to apply pressure instead of digging further. I havent figured out a good third cut yet, but I'm fairly consistent with 12 dredge cards in the deck.
Here is my current list if you want to take a look; same as what I posted a page ago though. Also note my graveyard hate is low due the meta.
Revised my list to double the Basic count, in a reactive attempt to combat the wealth of Assassin's Trophies, Paths, Quarters and Field of Ruins I see:
What would you bring Pithing Needle in against? I think between Ancient Grudge, Nature's Claim, and Lighting Axe we have the tools needed to combat the most popular sideboard graveyard hate such as Relic of Progenitus, Leyline of the Void, and Scavenging Ooze. If you plan to stop planewalkers with the Needle, why not just bring the beats with the team or ignore them and race? Same with man-land, if my opponent is activating and chumping with Celestial Colonnade then I'm probably already winning that game. I just don't know what matches I would want to have a Needle in against.
Hi there, I'm here because I hate this deck. I currently play Humans, and love it with all my heart, but playing against Dredge is always a miserable, unfun guaranteed loss, even when drawing hate cards.
I'm wondering, how effective are Grafdigger's Cage and Auriok Champion against you guys? Are there any play lines to focus on or is it really just "get lucky with draws or die"? I almost always named Conflagerate with Meddling Mage, but even then it seems to barely help. Thanks.
@ TheLoneN00b - First, a more tactful way of asking your question would be along the lines of, "I love playing Humans, but find my Dredge matchup very difficult. Can anyone please provide insight on if Grafdigger's Cage is an effective sideboard card or ideal targets for Meddling Mage?" Try to remember, just because you hate an archetype doesn't mean others should to. Second, I would think the Humans thread would be a much better place to seek advice as they are more likely to know your lines of play instead of Dredge players spitballing ideas without any solid context of the intricacies of your deck. Third, Grafdigger's Cage is annoying, but doesnt stop the Dredge mechanic or Creeping Chill; I just wait until I'm ready for a big turn, blow up the Cage and carry on. Meddling Mage requires some more context on the board state and graveyard to name correctly, sorry I cant provide more advice on that front. Lastly, it's okay to have unfavorable to bad matchups. If one deck was perfect in the format then everyone would play it. Good luck and happy gaming!
@ PraiseTheKappa - Welcome to the forum, I don't know how I feel about a basic forest and swamp in the 75. I was running a single basic forest for a little while and ran into a few situations where I wanted to Conflagrate into a Faithless Looting but had one Forest and two Rx lands in play. Ultimately, we really only care about a small handful of red cards to cast and I think one or two basic Mountains is enough to play around Path to Exile; Field of Ruin and Assassin's Trophy only stall as we can get most of those targets back again when our engine is online. Shriekhorn is four in the yard by the next draw step while Insolent Neonate need you to have a Dredge card in hand. Most list are also trimming on Dredgers for Creeping Chill and not having to mulligan as often due to Neonate needing a Dredger is nice.
No offense @TheLoneN00b, but either you’re playing Humans incorrectly, or I’ve been misplaying dredge, as I’ve found Humans to be an incredibly tough matchup G1...
Your creatures get larger as you progress, interact with our hands, tax our effects, and can shut down a large wincon like Conflagrate.
If I don’t have an explosive start then I find humans to be an uphill battle rather quickly.
My intention with my post wasn't to try to campaign to convince others whether or not to enjoy Dredge, nor am I even remotely offended. I tried to use hyperbole to emphasize my point in how I feel underpowered in the matchup, but maybe that wasn't the best introduction. I came here instead of the Humans forum because they've discussed the matchup already, but I wanted to get perspectives from the other end of the table rather than echo chamber the same ideas we've brought up before. Catch a strategy or idea I may have been missing by exploiting the opponent's weakness rather than bolstering myself. Either way, it seems Cage isn't the all-star I thought it was. Thanks for your input.
@ TheLoneN00b - First, a more tactful way of asking your question would be along the lines of, "I love playing Humans, but find my Dredge matchup very difficult. Can anyone please provide insight on if Grafdigger's Cage is an effective sideboard card or ideal targets for Meddling Mage?" Try to remember, just because you hate an archetype doesn't mean others should to. Second, I would think the Humans thread would be a much better place to seek advice as they are more likely to know your lines of play instead of Dredge players spitballing ideas without any solid context of the intricacies of your deck. Third, Grafdigger's Cage is annoying, but doesnt stop the Dredge mechanic or Creeping Chill; I just wait until I'm ready for a big turn, blow up the Cage and carry on. Meddling Mage requires some more context on the board state and graveyard to name correctly, sorry I cant provide more advice on that front. Lastly, it's okay to have unfavorable to bad matchups. If one deck was perfect in the format then everyone would play it. Good luck and happy gaming!
No offense @TheLoneN00b, but either you’re playing Humans incorrectly, or I’ve been misplaying dredge, as I’ve found Humans to be an incredibly tough matchup G1...
Your creatures get larger as you progress, interact with our hands, tax our effects, and can shut down a large wincon like Conflagrate.
If I don’t have an explosive start then I find humans to be an uphill battle rather quickly.
You really shouldn’t have a large problem, even with Creeping Chill.
Meddling Mage, Reflector Mage, Kitesail Freebooter, and Thalia are all very punishing against us. Your games 2/3 would likely run any number of Rest in Peaces (maybe, some human decks really go all out in versatile humans), Gaddock Teeg, Anafenza the Foremost etc are all good sideboard cards against Dredge
@ PraiseTheKappa - Welcome to the forum, I don't know how I feel about a basic forest and swamp in the 75. I was running a single basic forest for a little while and ran into a few situations where I wanted to Conflagrate into a Faithless Looting but had one Forest and two Rx lands in play. Ultimately, we really only care about a small handful of red cards to cast and I think one or two basic Mountains is enough to play around Path to Exile; Field of Ruin and Assassin's Trophy only stall as we can get most of those targets back again when our engine is online. Shriekhorn is four in the yard by the next draw step while Insolent Neonate need you to have a Dredge card in hand. Most list are also trimming on Dredgers for Creeping Chill and not having to mulligan as often due to Neonate needing a Dredger is nice.
Thanks for the insight!
I have played Dredge some time ago and also only played 1 Mountain. I played a 2nd Dakmor Salvage und a Canyon Slough in those places, would that still be viable? I found the instant speed Dredge to be very nice to set up my board and untapping with some Amalgams.
About Shriekhorn: You are absolutely right, that makes sense. Fewer Dredgers hurts the power of Neonate quite a bit. If 4 Shriekhorn the recommended amount or is it more like 2-4?
1-2 Shriekhorn
1-2 Golgari Thug
1 Life from the Loam (Sodeq doesn't suggest this though, so I'll also avoid this probably)
1 Reunion
1 Narcomoeba
1 Bloodghast
1 Conflagrate
1 Mountain on draw not up against FoR/Path etc.
Anything else?
Also, what is a typical amount to sideboard in this deck? Like, say we are up against KCI or Hardened Scales and have 4 Claims and 3 Grudges in the SB. Do we side all 7 cards in?
Bridgevine is much faster, though perhaps I'm just bad at dredge (or cockatrice hates me)? Even with chill, it seems that dredge is turn 5ish with no disruption from the couple 10s of goldfishes i did. Bridgevine is something like 3.5 given my tournament experience.
Also, why is it everyone seems to run 4 life from the loam as a pose to 3 life/ 1 more thug or something? Is it just very valuable to have in your hand?
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
Also, I think its worthwhile to trim a Creeping Chill in Jund/GBx matchups. We need to optimize relevant cards, and Scavenging Ooze can eat Chill on the stack.
I have found Loam to be very important to ensure you can build Conflagrate to lethal amounts, hit land drops or buyback Gemstone Mine, or trigger Bloodghast. The later is also a reason I still run a single Dakmore Salvage in the 75.
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
10 does seem low but I guess shriekhorn counts as half a dredger. What should be cut in order to add more?
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Here is my current list if you want to take a look; same as what I posted a page ago though. Also note my graveyard hate is low due the meta.
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
1x Blood Crypt
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Copperline Gorge
1x Forest
2x Gemstone Mine
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Mountain
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
2x Wooded Foothills
Creature:
4x Bloodghast
1x Golgari Thug
4x Narcomoeba
4x Prized Amalgam
1x Scourge Devil
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Cathartic Reunion
3x Conflagrate
4x Creeping Chill
4x Faithless Looting
3x Life from the Loam
Instant:
2x Darkblast
Artifact:
3x Shriekhorn
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Assassin's Trophy
1x Golgari Charm
3x Lightning Axe
4x Nature's Claim
3x Thoughtseize
Testing out Steam Vents as well, in crappy cases where Narco/Prized are drawn. Unsure of the 2x Assassin's Trophies.
I've noticed Nature's Way being played more often. What's it really strong against?
Footsteps Hulk
Ascendency Combo
Restore Balance
Ad Nauseam
EDH:
Ghave Lands
Narset Combo
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
I'm wondering, how effective are Grafdigger's Cage and Auriok Champion against you guys? Are there any play lines to focus on or is it really just "get lucky with draws or die"? I almost always named Conflagerate with Meddling Mage, but even then it seems to barely help. Thanks.
I am picking up dredge again after a long hiatus.
Here is the list i am going to try:
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Gemstone Mine
3 Copperline Gorge
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Dakmoor Salvage
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cathartic Reunion
3 Conflagrate
3 Life from the Loam
4 Creeping Chill
1 Darkblast
Artifacts:
3 Shriekhorn
Creatures:
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Bloodghast
3 Nature's Claim
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Axe
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
This is just a list i tossed up yesterday evening and would like to hear some opinions on it.
Why are Shriekhorn played over Insolent Neonate right now? Neonate always felt pretty explosive on turn 1.
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
Legacy:
GElvesG
@ PraiseTheKappa - Welcome to the forum, I don't know how I feel about a basic forest and swamp in the 75. I was running a single basic forest for a little while and ran into a few situations where I wanted to Conflagrate into a Faithless Looting but had one Forest and two Rx lands in play. Ultimately, we really only care about a small handful of red cards to cast and I think one or two basic Mountains is enough to play around Path to Exile; Field of Ruin and Assassin's Trophy only stall as we can get most of those targets back again when our engine is online. Shriekhorn is four in the yard by the next draw step while Insolent Neonate need you to have a Dredge card in hand. Most list are also trimming on Dredgers for Creeping Chill and not having to mulligan as often due to Neonate needing a Dredger is nice.
Modern Dredge
Budget Dredge
Mardu Pyromancer
Belcher
Your creatures get larger as you progress, interact with our hands, tax our effects, and can shut down a large wincon like Conflagrate.
If I don’t have an explosive start then I find humans to be an uphill battle rather quickly.
Meddling Mage, Reflector Mage, Kitesail Freebooter, and Thalia are all very punishing against us. Your games 2/3 would likely run any number of Rest in Peaces (maybe, some human decks really go all out in versatile humans), Gaddock Teeg, Anafenza the Foremost etc are all good sideboard cards against Dredge
Thanks for the insight!
I have played Dredge some time ago and also only played 1 Mountain. I played a 2nd Dakmor Salvage und a Canyon Slough in those places, would that still be viable? I found the instant speed Dredge to be very nice to set up my board and untapping with some Amalgams.
About Shriekhorn: You are absolutely right, that makes sense. Fewer Dredgers hurts the power of Neonate quite a bit. If 4 Shriekhorn the recommended amount or is it more like 2-4?
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
Legacy:
GElvesG