Yeah I think this is kinda insane. Uncounterable when you mill/exile it, and punishes opposing aggro decks trying to keep our life total down. I could see this being a 3 of but I want to test the heck out of it. I have 2 flex slots with Tormenting Voice and I see a lot of people have dropped to 2 Thugs, so I can start there.
Its a one shot drain for 3, does that do enough though? Its dead in hand if you draw it and does nothing if discarded. Might be ok if you are replacing tormenting voice with it. Although I like the draw spell more. Chill could definitely help close games faster and prevent losing to hyper aggro.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
On Creeping Chill, not only does it help the race, but it also is an uncounterable helix to face vs Jeskai and UW control. This can help when we drop them to <7 life right before they stabilize.
That being said, it makes us slightly worse to hand hate game 1. If the opponent thoughtseizes, they can choose to hit an initiator if we have it, or just take Creeping chill if there is nothing else. It gives them a way avoid making us discard a grave- relevant card. Maybe it's too corner case, but idk.
What I think this could help the most is versus combo. I found that I am always one turn off against valakut or another deck. If this speeds up our clock by a turn, I can see it being played.
My biggest question is what do we cut for this? I think the card isn't useful enough as only a 1 or 2-of, as it needs the density to swing life totals in a meaningful way. We could cut 1 horn (4 loot, 4 hug, 3 horn for initiators) and scourge devil too, but then we have at least one more slot to cut. It will certainly harm the deck's flexibility if it means we'll be going down on Darkblast or the like
Honestly I find this card very very powerful: uncounterable, no answer possible, can be instant surprise with shriekhorn ...
Great in MU aggro, and UWR / UW too, helps to trigger bloodghast ...
I think 3 copies are great ! I think to remove 1 narco, 1 conflagrate and 1 flex (devil or 1 of 2 darkblast). In terms of having it in hand, it's much better than having 1 narco of course, but 4 mana is not unreasonable, it may be cast.
B00NTY
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Vizier company GWB- Dredge GBR - TitanShift GR - Grishoalbrand BR - Burn WR - Elves GB - Colorless Eldrazi X - U tron U
Hey gang, long time lurker, first time poster (here).
Been on dredge for almost 2 years now and I think the best way to jam Chill into our lists is to cut some chaff, whilst also maintaining a fair density of enablers, dredgers, threats, and land. That being said, I know for me personally, I'm cutting one Thug, One horn (previously mentioned), and both Driven//Despair AND Scourge Devil. I'm on the fence about cutting Thug, but I think 2 Thugs are fine, and that we wont miss the extra dredger too much. The list looks something like this:
Lands can include your preferred manabase, but I would make sure to have access to black mana to hardcast potential chills stuck in your hand; not that this should be a problem for us, we need to cast Darkblast and Stinky sometimes. I am currently toying with the idea of switching to 3 Loam 3 Thug, but I am unsure if that is better off.
I've found that both Scourge devil and Driven//Despair are subject to variance based on our board, a conclusion many experienced dredge players have reached as well I'm sure. By reducing that variance, I feel as if we can perform on a more consistent level, not to mention that running 3 Conflag also puts many decks on an absurd clock, flipping a Chill on turn 2, 3, or 4 makes our conflagrates almost instantly give our Ghasts haste and is mostly the reason I will be jamming 4 into my list. Against control, its 12 (READ: T W E L V E) damage they can't counter, and vs grindier decks it can help us stabilize. But that's just me. Keep spitballin' gang.
Yeah I agree, cutting the flex spots. But IMO 4 narco / 4 Chill are a lot, >60% to have at least 1 in starting hand.
I will test 3/3 in proxy paper soon, can't wait !
B00NTY
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Vizier company GWB- Dredge GBR - TitanShift GR - Grishoalbrand BR - Burn WR - Elves GB - Colorless Eldrazi X - U tron U
So creeping chill seems incredible. It's a free uncounterable 3 damage per against control, and a whopping 6 point lifeswing in races. That lifegain is incredible vs burn and affinity and pretty much every deck that tries to kill us before we kill them, rather than stop us from killing them and then kill us.
I think there is room in the deck for at least 3, if not a full playset. The only thing narcos have on this is that they trigger amalgams, otherwise this is miles better. For comparison, in an aggro matchup you need narco to swing in and survive 3 times, then block a 3/x to get the same value.
Between this and assassin's trophy as our new catchall sideboard card, im pretty psyched for GRN
So the downside of early playtests is that I'm on 4 Narcos and 4 Chills, so we've effectively doubled our chances at drawing a dead opening hand with either.
On the other hand, it's been pretty satisfying to dredge into the gy. So far I've only playtested vs Humans with a full set. I'm wondering if 3 may be the correct number here, just to make it less frequent at having as an opener...
I'm curious though, khaosknight69, would you think replacing Narcos or some of the Narcos for this is a better idea? It's an interesting thought, I've honestly just been too reliant on chipping with a flier (or in Humans' case, blocking a Mantis Rider or Freebooter) that I couldn't get myself to cut them.
I'm verrry happy to skim a narco and lose some flex slots for a full playset. Yes it increases the chances of a dead draw in hand, but thats one of the reasons we play conflag. Chill is much less dead in hand than narco, as worst case you can hardcast it turn 4 without too much trouble thanks to life from the loam. The workaround to make narco not dead involves hardcasting golgari thug and is generally much slower.
To get the same value on a narco dredge that you get from a chill dredge, you need that narco to survive and swing 3 times, then block a mantis rider. The only reason we aren't ditching narco entirely for chill (imo) is that we need the amalgam triggers.
This card significantly speeds up the deck and improves the nutdraw, while also helping with some of our toughest matchups. Ultra-fast linear aggro that can goldfish better than we can. Dredging one of these will often mean the difference of dying on turn 3 to an affinity/humans/rdw nut draw and getting to turn 4, allowing us one last chance to attack. They also make for 12 points of uncounterable damage vs control.
One other major aspect of the card is it gives us another out to Ensnaring Bridge. Conflagrate alone was often too slow, and gets turned off by grafdigger's cage. This doesn't get turned off by cage, and when you run a playset of these plus 2-3 conflags, then you can easily win the game in a few turns without even attacking once. This reach that it provides is about equivalent to the reach that bolt gives red decks, meaning that we can win even in a stalled board.
It also opens up some SB slots. Gnaw to the Bone was usually a 1-2 of in the most competitive lists, especially in burn and aggro heavy metas. This accomplishes what gnaw did and more. Between this and Assassin's Trophy in the SB, Dredge gained two 4-ofs in GRN. I think Trophy, despite costing 1 more than nature's claim should get the nod because it cleanly answers ALL the hate we might encounter, from RIP to Leyline to creature based hate that we typically struggle to deal with like Scavenging Ooze. If they are stupid enough to scooze and not immediately exile stuff we could usually deal with it via conflag, but now thats not necessary.
I'm no mathlete with the exact percentages of why you need to run X amount of dredge/payoff/enabler, but I remember the general rule of thumb was 12dredge/12payoff/12enabler/4 flex for a consistent rate of dredging. This list is 13/15/13 which should mean fairly consistent dredges that chain into one another, frequent payoffs, and less frequent bricking. I run 20 lands instead of 19 partially because I expect more assassin's trophy in the meta and want to have the basics to fetch, and because I want to make sure I always get to 2 mana so I can loam into enough mana to hardcast chills that i might draw.
Interesting thoughts mate, I'm fairly on board with your views, and yup that 13/15/13 seems fine to me. This is what I'm working with now, you've convinced me to drop a Narco.
I wouldnt drop narc ever. I agree that Creeping Chill might be the future of the deck, but realistically... were looking at 2 things, with 2 sub categories within them "pay offs (Plan A/B) and Set up (enablers and dredge). After all we are a 2 part combo.
Back in the day Troll made dredge so good because he was 2 of these at once. Set up (dredge) and Pay off (Plan B). When he was banned, the deck felt it hard because as I've said in the past, "4 trolls was worth 6-7 cards." We ended up having to cut flex spots and the deck has been tight on cards ever since, argo 1 or 2 scourges/rally/haunted dead. Chill clearly takes those spots.
The next thing you have to do is bite into your Core cards. It doesnt just take Conflags spot, because while conflag isnt great at it... It is Payoff (Plan B AND Set up (Enbaler) Chill is simply Plan B. Its good at that, but thats all it is.
Narc isn't pay off. Its Enabler. You shouldnt cut Enabler for Pay off. You should cut pay off for pay off, enabler for enabler. Conflags likely get cut for chill. Maybe down to a 1 or 2 of, since youd be cutting Plan B for Plan B... A direct substitute. If I was to cut anymore... it would maybe be that last flex spot enabler. AKA a tormented voice or something.
Truth is... You really need to say "Is uncounterable 12 damage and gaining 12 life worth cutting Conflag?" If it is, great. Its the new plan B. If not, well... the deck cant fit more flex spots. So its not worth pointing in.
Deck theory aside... I think it is better. Uncounterable makes you better at killing control, free makes you better at racing combo, and lifegain makes you better against that Aggro race" we always seem to be 1 turn too slow at. Theres no reason you can pack conflag in the board and side 1-2 in against elves and the like. Personally I think the fact that chill reduces the amount of side slots we need to dedicate to aggro AND combo is worth alot more than it seems.
Yeah I don’t think I’d ever cut Conflag from my list, it’s too powerful not to run 3 of. I like that list above; so they’ve chosen to board Darkblast for the 4th copy of Chill? That’s a decent idea, and it keeps Narcos at a 4 of as well. Looks like they also went with cutting Dakmor (or 1 land).
Just noting Wand of Vertebrae caught my attention but is still much worse than shriekhorn unfortunately.
I do like the list by Sodeq too. I’m going to start there as well. I don’t know if I like 19 lands in dredge though. I’ve had bad starting hands even at 20.
Sodeq, leave us some thoughts on how Creeping chill went.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Hey guys! Long time lurker, first time posting, been playing dredge for about 3 years, from now one been suffering post side most matches as every deck runs loads of grave hates, bout that, just one thin I didnt quite got: why play Shriekhorn over Neonate??
Since the current meta favors him in my vision
Test it out and tell us what you think n0bunga.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Defintely! Can’t wait to test it!
That being said, it makes us slightly worse to hand hate game 1. If the opponent thoughtseizes, they can choose to hit an initiator if we have it, or just take Creeping chill if there is nothing else. It gives them a way avoid making us discard a grave- relevant card. Maybe it's too corner case, but idk.
What I think this could help the most is versus combo. I found that I am always one turn off against valakut or another deck. If this speeds up our clock by a turn, I can see it being played.
My biggest question is what do we cut for this? I think the card isn't useful enough as only a 1 or 2-of, as it needs the density to swing life totals in a meaningful way. We could cut 1 horn (4 loot, 4 hug, 3 horn for initiators) and scourge devil too, but then we have at least one more slot to cut. It will certainly harm the deck's flexibility if it means we'll be going down on Darkblast or the like
Honestly I find this card very very powerful: uncounterable, no answer possible, can be instant surprise with shriekhorn ...
Great in MU aggro, and UWR / UW too, helps to trigger bloodghast ...
I think 3 copies are great ! I think to remove 1 narco, 1 conflagrate and 1 flex (devil or 1 of 2 darkblast). In terms of having it in hand, it's much better than having 1 narco of course, but 4 mana is not unreasonable, it may be cast.
B00NTY
Been on dredge for almost 2 years now and I think the best way to jam Chill into our lists is to cut some chaff, whilst also maintaining a fair density of enablers, dredgers, threats, and land. That being said, I know for me personally, I'm cutting one Thug, One horn (previously mentioned), and both Driven//Despair AND Scourge Devil. I'm on the fence about cutting Thug, but I think 2 Thugs are fine, and that we wont miss the extra dredger too much. The list looks something like this:
Threats/value (16)
4x Ghast
4x Amalgam
4x Narc
4x Chill
Dredgers (11)
4x Stinky
4x Loam
2x Thug
1x Darkblast
(and Dakmor salvage, mentioned in land)
Spells/Enablers (14)
3x Conflagrate
4x Looting
4x Mom Hug
3x Shriekhorn
Lands can include your preferred manabase, but I would make sure to have access to black mana to hardcast potential chills stuck in your hand; not that this should be a problem for us, we need to cast Darkblast and Stinky sometimes. I am currently toying with the idea of switching to 3 Loam 3 Thug, but I am unsure if that is better off.
I've found that both Scourge devil and Driven//Despair are subject to variance based on our board, a conclusion many experienced dredge players have reached as well I'm sure. By reducing that variance, I feel as if we can perform on a more consistent level, not to mention that running 3 Conflag also puts many decks on an absurd clock, flipping a Chill on turn 2, 3, or 4 makes our conflagrates almost instantly give our Ghasts haste and is mostly the reason I will be jamming 4 into my list. Against control, its 12 (READ: T W E L V E) damage they can't counter, and vs grindier decks it can help us stabilize. But that's just me. Keep spitballin' gang.
I will test 3/3 in proxy paper soon, can't wait !
B00NTY
From my list I'm cutting 1 Golgari Thug, 2 Tormenting Voice, and 1 Darkblast or 1 Loam. I'm not too comfortable with the last two options.
I like Pariah's idea about shaving the landcount to 19 over cutting Loam or Darkblast.
I may just cut out Dakmor?
My landbase is as such:
4 Gorges
2 Mesa
2 Footies
2 Mires
2 Mountain
2 Stompies
2 Crypts
2 Gemstones
1 Quarter
1 Salvage
I think there is room in the deck for at least 3, if not a full playset. The only thing narcos have on this is that they trigger amalgams, otherwise this is miles better. For comparison, in an aggro matchup you need narco to swing in and survive 3 times, then block a 3/x to get the same value.
Between this and assassin's trophy as our new catchall sideboard card, im pretty psyched for GRN
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
On the other hand, it's been pretty satisfying to dredge into the gy. So far I've only playtested vs Humans with a full set. I'm wondering if 3 may be the correct number here, just to make it less frequent at having as an opener...
I'm curious though, khaosknight69, would you think replacing Narcos or some of the Narcos for this is a better idea? It's an interesting thought, I've honestly just been too reliant on chipping with a flier (or in Humans' case, blocking a Mantis Rider or Freebooter) that I couldn't get myself to cut them.
To get the same value on a narco dredge that you get from a chill dredge, you need that narco to survive and swing 3 times, then block a mantis rider. The only reason we aren't ditching narco entirely for chill (imo) is that we need the amalgam triggers.
This card significantly speeds up the deck and improves the nutdraw, while also helping with some of our toughest matchups. Ultra-fast linear aggro that can goldfish better than we can. Dredging one of these will often mean the difference of dying on turn 3 to an affinity/humans/rdw nut draw and getting to turn 4, allowing us one last chance to attack. They also make for 12 points of uncounterable damage vs control.
One other major aspect of the card is it gives us another out to Ensnaring Bridge. Conflagrate alone was often too slow, and gets turned off by grafdigger's cage. This doesn't get turned off by cage, and when you run a playset of these plus 2-3 conflags, then you can easily win the game in a few turns without even attacking once. This reach that it provides is about equivalent to the reach that bolt gives red decks, meaning that we can win even in a stalled board.
It also opens up some SB slots. Gnaw to the Bone was usually a 1-2 of in the most competitive lists, especially in burn and aggro heavy metas. This accomplishes what gnaw did and more. Between this and Assassin's Trophy in the SB, Dredge gained two 4-ofs in GRN. I think Trophy, despite costing 1 more than nature's claim should get the nod because it cleanly answers ALL the hate we might encounter, from RIP to Leyline to creature based hate that we typically struggle to deal with like Scavenging Ooze. If they are stupid enough to scooze and not immediately exile stuff we could usually deal with it via conflag, but now thats not necessary.
right now my list is:
4 Creeping Chill
3 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
Enabler (13)
4 Faithless Looting
3 Cathartic Reunion
2 Conflagrate
2 Shriekhorn
2 Insolent Neonate
Dredgers (12 + dakmor in landbase)
4 Life from the Loam
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
2 Mountain
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
4 Assassin's Trophy
1 Darkblast
2 Lightning Axe
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Leyline of the Void
I'm no mathlete with the exact percentages of why you need to run X amount of dredge/payoff/enabler, but I remember the general rule of thumb was 12dredge/12payoff/12enabler/4 flex for a consistent rate of dredging. This list is 13/15/13 which should mean fairly consistent dredges that chain into one another, frequent payoffs, and less frequent bricking. I run 20 lands instead of 19 partially because I expect more assassin's trophy in the meta and want to have the basics to fetch, and because I want to make sure I always get to 2 mana so I can loam into enough mana to hardcast chills that i might draw.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
2x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Copperline Gorge
2x Gemstone Mine
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Mountain
2x Stomping Ground
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Cathartic Reunion
3x Conflagrate
4x Faithless Looting
3x Shriekhorn
Dredger(12):
1x Darkblast
3x Golgari Thug
4x Life from the Loam
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Bloodghast
4x Creeping Chill
3x Narcomoeba
4x Prized Amalgam
1x Ancient Grudge
4x Assassin's Trophy
1x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Collective Brutality
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Lightning Axe
4x Nature's Claim
I like running the third conflag, it's helped me a lot.
Back in the day Troll made dredge so good because he was 2 of these at once. Set up (dredge) and Pay off (Plan B). When he was banned, the deck felt it hard because as I've said in the past, "4 trolls was worth 6-7 cards." We ended up having to cut flex spots and the deck has been tight on cards ever since, argo 1 or 2 scourges/rally/haunted dead. Chill clearly takes those spots.
The next thing you have to do is bite into your Core cards. It doesnt just take Conflags spot, because while conflag isnt great at it... It is Payoff (Plan B AND Set up (Enbaler) Chill is simply Plan B. Its good at that, but thats all it is.
Narc isn't pay off. Its Enabler. You shouldnt cut Enabler for Pay off. You should cut pay off for pay off, enabler for enabler. Conflags likely get cut for chill. Maybe down to a 1 or 2 of, since youd be cutting Plan B for Plan B... A direct substitute. If I was to cut anymore... it would maybe be that last flex spot enabler. AKA a tormented voice or something.
Truth is... You really need to say "Is uncounterable 12 damage and gaining 12 life worth cutting Conflag?" If it is, great. Its the new plan B. If not, well... the deck cant fit more flex spots. So its not worth pointing in.
Deck theory aside... I think it is better. Uncounterable makes you better at killing control, free makes you better at racing combo, and lifegain makes you better against that Aggro race" we always seem to be 1 turn too slow at. Theres no reason you can pack conflag in the board and side 1-2 in against elves and the like. Personally I think the fact that chill reduces the amount of side slots we need to dedicate to aggro AND combo is worth alot more than it seems.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-modern-constructed-league-2018-09-28
SODEQ (5-0)
4 Bloodghast
2 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
Spells: 23
4 Cathartic Reunion
3 Conflagrate
4 Creeping Chill
4 Faithless Looting
4 Life from the Loam
4 Shriekhorn
2 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 City of Brass
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Gemstone Mine
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Darkblast
3 Lightning Axe
4 Nature's Claim
3 Thoughtseize
I do like the list by Sodeq too. I’m going to start there as well. I don’t know if I like 19 lands in dredge though. I’ve had bad starting hands even at 20.
Sodeq, leave us some thoughts on how Creeping chill went.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
YAMAKILLER (3RD PLACE)
4 Bloodghast
2 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
Spells: 23
4 Cathartic Reunion
3 Conflagrate
4 Creeping Chill
4 Faithless Looting
4 Life from the Loam
4 Shriekhorn
2 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 City of Brass
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Gemstone Mine
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Stomping Ground
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Darkblast
3 Lightning Axe
4 Nature's Claim
3 Thoughtseize
ZORES (6TH PLACE)
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Thug
2 Insolent Neonate
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
Spells: 21
3 Cathartic Reunion
3 Conflagrate
4 Creeping Chill
4 Faithless Looting
4 Life from the Loam
3 Shriekhorn
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Copperline Gorge
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Gemstone Mine
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Damping Sphere
2 Darkblast
3 Lightning Axe
4 Nature's Claim
Yama's list is the same as Sodeq's except he swapped Tarns in for Foothills.
Since the current meta favors him in my vision