Scourge Devil is much much better than Rally. Couple reasons why:
1. Devil is uncounterable. It's VERY important vs Shadow decks and Jeskai/UW.
2. By itself deals 4 dmg - rally 0. Rally gives you more damage if you have 5 or more creatures. If we already he so many we should win no matter which pump spell we use. And that 4 dmg can kill from nowhere or pressure Planeswalkers (useful vs Tron with Karn/Ugin and Jace, Architect of Thought).
3. Devil is better if opponent has removal spells in hand to combat our overrun effect. The most important is vs Shadow and Jeskai. it's better to have more creatures wirh less power than less but bigger creatures. Bolt effects will kill anything, push all our regular creatures (but Devil is immune to Push :p) so it's better to force them to kill more stuff.
4. Devil can return Amalgams from graveyard. It's important vs Surgical decks.
5. It's a creature It can be casted for 5 mana. it can return form Living End. 99% of times It won't pump Goyf (and instant usually does it).
Pro tip - when opponent is at 10 our Bloodghasts gain haste. 2 Ghasts + devil is exectly 10. It's uncounterable way to deal lehtla dmg out from nowhere.
Of course Rally also have some pluses:
1. It's on instant speed so we can force opponent to make bad blocks becouse Rally is fear.
2. Instant speed effect is useful vs Lantern. For example with bridge in play and 1 card in opponent's hand we can attack with Narcomoebas and hardcasted dredges and after declaring attackers we can pump and attack for much more.
3. In lategame with 6 mana we can give our creatures +4+0. hardcast than flashback. Personally did it once, as classic win more ;p
After more than 1000 mathces on MTGO with 65% win ratio I can safely say that Devil is the best "combat trick card" in Dredge. Haunted Dead, Rally the Peasants or even Driven//Despair - they all have some advantages and disadvantages but overall Devil many times showed me that he deserves his slot.
Can`t agree more with you mate. I tried them all out but I keep coming back to the Devil because he just puts in the most work in my opinion.
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Legacy - Reanimator
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
Hi, sorry for maybe noob question. I saw the list which recently won the Santa Clara GP and was wondering why running 1 copy of sheltered ticket Also why all 4 of life from loam? Aren't 3 copy enough? ty
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Anyway continuing this conversation is pointless. Arguing with a spammer is like going against the church.
Has anyone tested Shambling Shell over Golgari Thug? It’s 1 less Dredge and 1 more mana, but has a decent effect that also puts it back into the graveyard. Is it too slow?
Why u want Maelstrom Pulse as response to Leyline? In my opinion you should destroy Leyline as fast as possible. If you want to destroy Leyline on turn 3 there are two problems:
1. They will likely have also discard spells to get rid of Pulse.
2. All decks with Leyline in sideboard will set up a clock. Mardu with Young Pyromancer, Hollow One with many threats, 8 rack will destroy your hand till turn 3. Even if you play Pulse on time u won't do enough dredges to assemble our grave engine. Dredge it's not storm to kill out of nowhere, we need time to find more creatures than opponent can cast. We need to cast 1-2 Loams to make sure we will have landdrops and/or big Conflagrate. We even need time to untap with some Amalgams to block if we are behind (and we will be if we give our opponent 3 Time Walks). Maelstrom Pulse is a great "catch all" card, but if you want to fight with Leyline u should play Nature's Claims. I usually play 3, sometimes even 4, they are great! And 4 life is much less cost than giving 2 Time Walks to our opponent.
Hey guys, I'm looking for some sideboard advice for a diverse meta, similar to what would be seen in a Grand Prix. I'm running a fairly stock list with a fetchable 21 land mana base, 4 Life from the Loam, 1 mainboard Darkblast, and Haunted Dead in the flex slot.
First, I guess I'm looking for opinions on 4 Leyline of the Void vs. 2 vs. 2 Ravenous Trap. I don't see these being used in many match-ups outside of the mirror and other dedicated graveyard strategies. Death's Shadow match ups are easy enough that I don't see much point in diluting our main plan against them. Against Storm, I usually just aim to remove their creatures and race. Driven//Despair feels pretty good in that match up and the match up is bad enough that I would be willing to dedicate a spot or two in my sideboard for Driven//Despair.
Second, the removal package. I think 2-3 Lightning Axe, 2-3 Abrupt Decay, 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Collective Brutality and 1-2 additional Darkblast are absolutely essential in the deck.
Next, and this depends on how many spots we have remaining after fighting the Grave war, dealing with hate. Abrupt Decay and Ancient Grudge deal with a lot of the usual suspects, but I have a hard time figuring out how to answer Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void, and Ravenous Trap cleanly. Most cards can only answer two of these. Thoughtseize is great against Ravenous Trap, but mediocre against Rest in Peace (you have to have the answer BEFORE it's a problem... no use in digging). Nature's Claim/Destructive Revelry/Ray of Revelation are fine against Leyline and RiP, but worthless against Ravenous Trap.
Zen Takahashi stated in an old article that it is a mistake to bring in both Thoughtseize and Abrupt Decay and dilute our game plan, but then which do you choose against RiP?
So the trouble I'm having is squeezing in all the cards I want and figuring out where to make my sacrifices.
I'm looking at:
2-3 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
2-3 Lightning Axe
2 Collective Brutality
1 Darkblast
1-2 Driven//Despair
2-4 Leyline of the Void/Ravenous Trap
0-3 Thoughtseize
0-1 misc (Gnaw to the Bone or an extra removal spell)
A couple of favorites are:
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Lightning Axe
1 Darkblast
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Driven//Despair
2 Collected Brutality
3 Abrupt Decay
This drops the Thoughtseizes, leaving me open to Ravenous Trap, but allows a solid plan against RiP by simply digging for Abrupt Decay. This also assumes that Leyline will only be played by another graveyard plan, which lends to an even footing because I'm running a set of my own Leylines.
This one is a more universal package. It is also weak to Leyline, and simply hopes to have few match ups against it, but provides tools for virtually any other match up.
Sooooo Dredge did poorly at Pro Tour. Maybe it's not good time to play it? Or it's just underpowered..
The thing is that the deck is good but it does not function the way it should be functioning. I started playing Legacy LED Dredge and that version is a Formula 1 car compared to what I get to play in Modern.
We also has to play against a lot of graveyard hate because there are some decks around at the top spots that are making use of the graveyard so we are getting caught in the cross fire. So I don`t think we are really underpowered but we are also not as strong as we should be.
Unban Troll!!!
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Legacy - Reanimator
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
@lvg Nature's Claim is great, it's 1 mana answer to everything that can attack us badly - Leyline, Cage, RiP and so on. And since we are grinding opponents 4 life is 95% irrelevant. Even against Affintiy destroying any permanent for "G" is good enough that we can give our opponent some life.
I'll also play Dredge at GP Lyon, maybe u could share what's your sideboard look like?
My sideboard:
3 Lightning Axe
3 Collective Brutality
3 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
Abour my sideboard: I love Lightning Axe, there was a time when I was playing 4 copies side. Right now I don't have much spece to play full playset but I won't go below 3, they are too good.
3 Collective Brutalities are good becouse of Burn popularity. I have 60% win rate vs Burn but I feel I still need another card in that match up. I'm considering playing Gnaw to the Bone to lock games vs Burn.
My only flex slots are Thoughtseizes. don't get me wrong - they are great magic cards - but they don't fit so well to Dredge gameplan. Maybe i'll swap 1 Thoughtseie with 1 Gnaw..
I think you want to respond to everything an opponent could have. Siding Duress vs Affinity or Burn when you already have much better cards in both match up only becouse you fear that they will play Rest in Peace. In my opinion it's not how you will increase win percentage. You can't oversidebaord and you should response to opponents' main gameplay in first place. For example - Nature's Claim and Grudge will be better vs Affinity than Duress, it's better to play more artifact destruction than responses to their 2 off RiP. If they have it - they are good magic players and you probably will have game 3 to try again
The same goes to grave hate - it's not even that good vs Storm. I found that discard spells are better becouse they can also interact with Empty the Warrens or Grapeshot + Remand plan. Grave hate is only good vs mirror and it's so unlikely that you will play one that it's better tot sacrifice mirror match to increase other match ups.
My tips:
1. Play Nature's Claim only if u suspect Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace/Grafdigger's Cage in slower match ups (like UW Control). Don't side in vs Relics or Nihil Spellmoboms. They will crack it in response to your Claim and you will be sad that u spent card on it.
2. Side in 3 Axes 2 Decays is good vs most creature decks. It's plan vs Humans, BGx, Shadows, fair Company decks and so on. Just kill their creatures, slow their clock and build card advantage with Dredge mechanic. Don't side in Grudges/Claims only becouse they have 1-2 Grafdigger's Cage in sideboard - you already have 2 Decays to response it and they more often won't have Cage and losing to Tarmogoyf or Mantis Rider beats when you have Claim in hand it's the worst feeling ever.
3. it's general correct to side in all discard spells vs spell based combo decks but don't be afraid to experiment with unusual lines - for example vs Madcap Moon it's better to side in Ancient Grudges than 4-5th discard spells. Do whatever you like but don't break golden rule - don't oversideboard. Setting up clock is more important than disruption, with discard spells but no clock they will easily rebuild.
Dredge is still a great deck. Solid mid to high tier 2. The truth is what we are feeling is a little bit of power creep away from us. Wizards hasn't feed us new cards in over a year. Seriously... a year. Ixalan gave us nothing, and amonkhet (a grave themed block too) gave us like... 2 half-a-cards. We didnt get a kitesail freebooter or a power house like mom hug.
So our deck is faultering. Currently the meta is unkind to us too. Games are fast, we cant exactly interact, and the prime control and combo deck of the format use the yard so grave hate is high. Its basically a 2 punch KO for us.
That BR hallowone deck is basically all in dredge that isnt super weak to grave hate. I don't believe its as amazing of a deck as people think it is, its diff less consistent than us. But its faster and it doesnt roll over to hate...
We need new cards, something that makes us less soft to side hate, and something that helps us interact a bit more. Or if the meta shifts back to grind, well do just find.
To be honest it's totally dead only vs Gx Tron and Lantern Control. But every other match up it's great or good:
All Shadow decks, Abzan, Burn, Affinity, Humans, Eldrazi Tron, Gifts Storm, Hatebears, Hollow One, Company Decks and so on. In all mentioned match ups Lightning Axe will be great, at least in game 1.
Also vs spell based decks Lightnign Axe will be "ok". Vs Titanshift it can clear way killing Sakura. Vs Jeskai/UW can kill Spell Queler or late Collonade.
Maybe it's time to play 2 main?
Hey, message the mods or admins. I cant help any more due to my lack of modness, but the mods can connect you to the correct admin who can over ride all those protocols and get you set up.
Dredge is still a great deck. Solid mid to high tier 2. The truth is what we are feeling is a little bit of power creep away from us. Wizards hasn't feed us new cards in over a year. Seriously... a year. Ixalan gave us nothing, and amonkhet (a grave themed block too) gave us like... 2 half-a-cards. We didnt get a kitesail freebooter or a power house like mom hug.
So our deck is faultering. Currently the meta is unkind to us too. Games are fast, we cant exactly interact, and the prime control and combo deck of the format use the yard so grave hate is high. Its basically a 2 punch KO for us.
That BR hallowone deck is basically all in dredge that isnt super weak to grave hate. I don't believe its as amazing of a deck as people think it is, its diff less consistent than us. But its faster and it doesnt roll over to hate...
We need new cards, something that makes us less soft to side hate, and something that helps us interact a bit more. Or if the meta shifts back to grind, well do just find.
I get what you are saying in that we need new cards but we all now what will happen when we get new cards and we get up there again.
Wizards hates Dredge as a mechanic and they just ban something from under us again. Basicly when you are playing Dredge you will always be playing a Tier 2 deck at max because of bannings.
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Legacy - Reanimator
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
I agree. I fear something over the top (basically anything that makes bridge consistant) but anything that makes interaction easier but costs us a slot (rally vs this, we trade damage for interaction) should be fine.
As far as this current meta? Darkblasts and axes seem good. When snap pyro decks were in alot of us were using two axes main. Im out of the loop lately, but I cant see them not being useful against everything but tron storm and valakut.
Sometimes the online meta and the paper are vastly different. Rally might be more important than consistency in paper... as paper seems more fast than online right now. how much is the RBg hollow one deck since you already own most of the cards? Maybe put that in your testing as its faster.
Na, Jund can really check them hard, and tron still exists. If control dominates there is plunty of decks to notch it down. Hopefully this is the start of real balance and meta shifts based on rock paper scissors in modern.
I still have my 65% win ratio but I'm not feeling so comfortable before GP. BR Hollow One existence means that grave hate will be in big numbers :/
@lvg I also have problems with Tron, only tech I got is Pithing Needle but I don't know if it's good enough to be in my 75.
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Can`t agree more with you mate. I tried them all out but I keep coming back to the Devil because he just puts in the most work in my opinion.
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
1. They will likely have also discard spells to get rid of Pulse.
2. All decks with Leyline in sideboard will set up a clock. Mardu with Young Pyromancer, Hollow One with many threats, 8 rack will destroy your hand till turn 3. Even if you play Pulse on time u won't do enough dredges to assemble our grave engine. Dredge it's not storm to kill out of nowhere, we need time to find more creatures than opponent can cast. We need to cast 1-2 Loams to make sure we will have landdrops and/or big Conflagrate. We even need time to untap with some Amalgams to block if we are behind (and we will be if we give our opponent 3 Time Walks). Maelstrom Pulse is a great "catch all" card, but if you want to fight with Leyline u should play Nature's Claims. I usually play 3, sometimes even 4, they are great! And 4 life is much less cost than giving 2 Time Walks to our opponent.
First, I guess I'm looking for opinions on 4 Leyline of the Void vs. 2 vs. 2 Ravenous Trap. I don't see these being used in many match-ups outside of the mirror and other dedicated graveyard strategies. Death's Shadow match ups are easy enough that I don't see much point in diluting our main plan against them. Against Storm, I usually just aim to remove their creatures and race. Driven//Despair feels pretty good in that match up and the match up is bad enough that I would be willing to dedicate a spot or two in my sideboard for Driven//Despair.
Second, the removal package. I think 2-3 Lightning Axe, 2-3 Abrupt Decay, 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Collective Brutality and 1-2 additional Darkblast are absolutely essential in the deck.
Next, and this depends on how many spots we have remaining after fighting the Grave war, dealing with hate. Abrupt Decay and Ancient Grudge deal with a lot of the usual suspects, but I have a hard time figuring out how to answer Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void, and Ravenous Trap cleanly. Most cards can only answer two of these. Thoughtseize is great against Ravenous Trap, but mediocre against Rest in Peace (you have to have the answer BEFORE it's a problem... no use in digging). Nature's Claim/Destructive Revelry/Ray of Revelation are fine against Leyline and RiP, but worthless against Ravenous Trap.
Zen Takahashi stated in an old article that it is a mistake to bring in both Thoughtseize and Abrupt Decay and dilute our game plan, but then which do you choose against RiP?
So the trouble I'm having is squeezing in all the cards I want and figuring out where to make my sacrifices.
I'm looking at:
2-3 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
2-3 Lightning Axe
2 Collective Brutality
1 Darkblast
1-2 Driven//Despair
2-4 Leyline of the Void/Ravenous Trap
0-3 Thoughtseize
0-1 misc (Gnaw to the Bone or an extra removal spell)
A couple of favorites are:
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Lightning Axe
1 Darkblast
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Driven//Despair
2 Collected Brutality
3 Abrupt Decay
This drops the Thoughtseizes, leaving me open to Ravenous Trap, but allows a solid plan against RiP by simply digging for Abrupt Decay. This also assumes that Leyline will only be played by another graveyard plan, which lends to an even footing because I'm running a set of my own Leylines.
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Lightning Axe
1 Darkblast
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collected Brutality
1 Driven//Despair
This one is a more universal package. It is also weak to Leyline, and simply hopes to have few match ups against it, but provides tools for virtually any other match up.
https://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/7t8cb5/gp_santa_clara_winner_howto_dredge_modern/
All reasonings sound super solid.
The thing is that the deck is good but it does not function the way it should be functioning. I started playing Legacy LED Dredge and that version is a Formula 1 car compared to what I get to play in Modern.
We also has to play against a lot of graveyard hate because there are some decks around at the top spots that are making use of the graveyard so we are getting caught in the cross fire. So I don`t think we are really underpowered but we are also not as strong as we should be.
Unban Troll!!!
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
I'll also play Dredge at GP Lyon, maybe u could share what's your sideboard look like?
3 Lightning Axe
3 Collective Brutality
3 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
Abour my sideboard: I love Lightning Axe, there was a time when I was playing 4 copies side. Right now I don't have much spece to play full playset but I won't go below 3, they are too good.
3 Collective Brutalities are good becouse of Burn popularity. I have 60% win rate vs Burn but I feel I still need another card in that match up. I'm considering playing Gnaw to the Bone to lock games vs Burn.
My only flex slots are Thoughtseizes. don't get me wrong - they are great magic cards - but they don't fit so well to Dredge gameplan. Maybe i'll swap 1 Thoughtseie with 1 Gnaw..
I think you want to respond to everything an opponent could have. Siding Duress vs Affinity or Burn when you already have much better cards in both match up only becouse you fear that they will play Rest in Peace. In my opinion it's not how you will increase win percentage. You can't oversidebaord and you should response to opponents' main gameplay in first place. For example - Nature's Claim and Grudge will be better vs Affinity than Duress, it's better to play more artifact destruction than responses to their 2 off RiP. If they have it - they are good magic players and you probably will have game 3 to try again
The same goes to grave hate - it's not even that good vs Storm. I found that discard spells are better becouse they can also interact with Empty the Warrens or Grapeshot + Remand plan. Grave hate is only good vs mirror and it's so unlikely that you will play one that it's better tot sacrifice mirror match to increase other match ups.
My tips:
1. Play Nature's Claim only if u suspect Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace/Grafdigger's Cage in slower match ups (like UW Control). Don't side in vs Relics or Nihil Spellmoboms. They will crack it in response to your Claim and you will be sad that u spent card on it.
2. Side in 3 Axes 2 Decays is good vs most creature decks. It's plan vs Humans, BGx, Shadows, fair Company decks and so on. Just kill their creatures, slow their clock and build card advantage with Dredge mechanic. Don't side in Grudges/Claims only becouse they have 1-2 Grafdigger's Cage in sideboard - you already have 2 Decays to response it and they more often won't have Cage and losing to Tarmogoyf or Mantis Rider beats when you have Claim in hand it's the worst feeling ever.
3. it's general correct to side in all discard spells vs spell based combo decks but don't be afraid to experiment with unusual lines - for example vs Madcap Moon it's better to side in Ancient Grudges than 4-5th discard spells. Do whatever you like but don't break golden rule - don't oversideboard. Setting up clock is more important than disruption, with discard spells but no clock they will easily rebuild.
So our deck is faultering. Currently the meta is unkind to us too. Games are fast, we cant exactly interact, and the prime control and combo deck of the format use the yard so grave hate is high. Its basically a 2 punch KO for us.
That BR hallowone deck is basically all in dredge that isnt super weak to grave hate. I don't believe its as amazing of a deck as people think it is, its diff less consistent than us. But its faster and it doesnt roll over to hate...
We need new cards, something that makes us less soft to side hate, and something that helps us interact a bit more. Or if the meta shifts back to grind, well do just find.
All Shadow decks, Abzan, Burn, Affinity, Humans, Eldrazi Tron, Gifts Storm, Hatebears, Hollow One, Company Decks and so on. In all mentioned match ups Lightning Axe will be great, at least in game 1.
Also vs spell based decks Lightnign Axe will be "ok". Vs Titanshift it can clear way killing Sakura. Vs Jeskai/UW can kill Spell Queler or late Collonade.
Maybe it's time to play 2 main?
I get what you are saying in that we need new cards but we all now what will happen when we get new cards and we get up there again.
Wizards hates Dredge as a mechanic and they just ban something from under us again. Basicly when you are playing Dredge you will always be playing a Tier 2 deck at max because of bannings.
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
As far as this current meta? Darkblasts and axes seem good. When snap pyro decks were in alot of us were using two axes main. Im out of the loop lately, but I cant see them not being useful against everything but tron storm and valakut.
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Thug
3 Insolent Neonate
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Cathartic Reunion
3 Conflagrate
4 Faithless Looting
3 Life from the Loam
1 Tormenting Voice
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karplusan Forest
4 Mana Confluence
2 Mountain
60 Cards
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Driven//Despair
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Lightning Axe
1 Nature's Claim
2 Thoughtseize
and 4 hollow one showings.
@lvg I also have problems with Tron, only tech I got is Pithing Needle but I don't know if it's good enough to be in my 75.