I am curious about the 2x Blackcleave Cliffs in the fetch manabase. I find that R/B lands to be essentially mountains with a downside a large percentage of the time...of course after sideboard black mana becomes more important. I have moved away from the cliffs in run another blood crypt and a fetch instead and found it to be much smoother as I can fetch up a green source if I want and still have another R/B land to get as well. I understand that it is more painful this way, but I think the consistency in mana makes up for it.
Am I missing something or does it really just come down to making the mana less painful?
Burn
-1 Dakmor Salvage
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Bloodghast
-2 Shriekhorn
+2 Collective Brutality
+1 Gnaw to the Bone
+2 Lightning Axe
Death's Shadow
-1 Mountain
-1 Dakmor Salvage
-1 Darkblast
+1 Bojuka Bog
the rest depends on the archetype. I bring in Lightning Axes against Gurmag Angler and Tas, Thoughtseize/Brutality/Gnaw as I feel I can.
I was wondering whether you Dredge experts could tell me why is 21 the accepted number of Lands in this Deck. I also got Dredge, and run it at 21 Lands as well, but what/how much would the risk be of going down to 20?
I have seen most lists have 21 (as I do myself, as noted). Because our curve is so low going to 20 doesn't sound too horribl, but I would need to try it.
I am also unsure why 3 Thugs and 4 Loams over the over the way around (although again, I have seen a tendency to go down to 3 Loams). I find using 4 Thugs gives me much needed consistency when dredging. Rarely do you/will you have more than 1 Loam in Hand. And hitting Thug (or Imp for that matter) earlier for dredging increases the chances of everything else falling into place nicely. Dredge 1 can be a significant change.
It is exactly for this reason that you want 4 Life from the Loam and 3 Golgari Thug. It is counterintuitive, but think of it this way: Which card would you rather dredge? Which card would you rather have in your hand anyway? You are going to cast Life from the Loam the VAST majority of games that you win, but sometimes it feels sad to "waste" a dredge on it. You play 4 to have the maximum chance of having it in your opening hand and being free to dredge other pieces. All the while, it is also a dredger that "discards" itself or allows you to discard to hand size.
RE: Land count
I play 21 lands to make sure I have 14 green sources main because most keepable hands need G. Then I want 13 black sources games 2 and 3 when I want to resolve Thoughtseize, Duress, or Collective Brutality. I also want fetches and fetchable lands for maximum Bloodghast triggers. It is hard to pack the lands the right way at 19-20. Further than this, I want to be able to mulligan into a Neonate/Reunion/Looting + Dredger hand with R/G mana and preferably one more land.
That being said, I am intrigued that the top 4 Dredge list from MKM had 4 fetches and 19 lands.
Finally, fetches don't matter if they fetch mountains. Arid Mesa is just as good as anything else until you play a Forest or Overgrown Tomb.
The meta at my LGS is almost a snapshot of the overall Modern meta, with the exception of a slightly larger number of Gx decks maindecking Scavenging Ooze. I have 3x Conflagrate and 1x Lightning Axe maindeck. Should I go any heavier on removal to deal with the Scooze threat? If not, how much of the meta would have to play Scooze to justify adding another Lightning Axe, or even a 4th Conflagrate? My Loam-Thug split is 4-3.
It is exactly for this reason that you want 4 Life from the Loam and 3 Golgari Thug. It is counterintuitive, but think of it this way: Which card would you rather dredge? Which card would you rather have in your hand anyway? You are going to cast Life from the Loam the VAST majority of games that you win, but sometimes it feels sad to "waste" a dredge on it. You play 4 to have the maximum chance of having it in your opening hand and being free to dredge other pieces. All the while, it is also a dredger that "discards" itself or allows you to discard to hand size.
RE: Land count
I play 21 lands to make sure I have 14 green sources main because most keepable hands need G. Then I want 13 black sources games 2 and 3 when I want to resolve Thoughtseize, Duress, or Collective Brutality. I also want fetches and fetchable lands for maximum Bloodghast triggers. It is hard to pack the lands the right way at 19-20. Further than this, I want to be able to mulligan into a Neonate/Reunion/Looting + Dredger hand with R/G mana and preferably one more land.
That being said, I am intrigued that the top 4 Dredge list from MKM had 4 fetches and 19 lands.
Finally, fetches don't matter if they fetch mountains. Arid Mesa is just as good as anything else until you play a Forest or Overgrown Tomb.
I guess it makes sense, but also I have seen some builds going down to 3 LftL. I really don't mind Dredging for LftL once I actually want to cast it, and Thug helps me get there quicker I feel.
And yes, I may test 20 Lands later, but 21 feel good enough for me atm.
I havent played it all that much, but in the past it was sorta the same deal. They assemble the combo before you conflag its over. Sometimes dredge feels like RNG, you either hit cards or you dont.
I've found it to be a pretty frustrating match up. Unless you hit a conflag early enough that you're able to cast it turn 2 or 3, you're dead. If you do hit a conflag, they're usually dead. Game 1 isn't very interesting, and the games are usually a blow out in either direction depending on if you hit Conflag or not. Post board it gets better, Collective Brutality is amazing. Being able to kill Druid and take a Chord/Company is huge. The issue now is that Darkblast used to be much better against them, as it was able to disrupt their main combo. But now you're unable to interact with their main combo at instant speed, as darkblast is useless against it. It may be necessary to bring in some number of Lightning Axe.
Hang in there. Remember your paper success. As far as MTGO goes, I seem to be playing a lot of Storm, Affinity, Elves, Death's Shadow, and Living End. I moved up the Darkblast count main to 2 (experienting with 3 also) and upped the side Lightning Axes to 3 also.
I've been getting into Modern Dredge and this primer has been super useful, thanks! I have a quick question though, why are people running 2 Ancient Grudges? Is it just for grafdigger's cage and affinity?
@Ivg - been there, my friend. This almost exclusively happens to me in paper, and less often on MODO. I have my own silly way of dealing with it in paper: mash shuffle 9 times, pile shuffle in 7 piles, mash again 9-11 times. Mathematically, riffle shuffling 9 times should be closed enough to a truly randomized for a 52 card deck, so I go with it for a 60 deck.
But randomness has clusters. You hit a cluster. Bummer. Keep the faith. You'll be good again in no time.
Got a 5-0, 10-5 grinder of a league yesterday. It took me 15 games, and at the end of the 15th, I was down to 0 cards in my library, hoping my Eldrazi Tron opponent didn't rip a Warping Wail to counter Conflagrate.
The going is rough lately. A few weeks/months ago (from the time of the GP and forward about four weeks), the meta was rotating around Death's Shadow more closely. We had Death's Shadow and mono-removal decks geared to beat it, and Dredge could easily beat those. Since, Elves, Storm, Knightfall, Vizier/Devoted Druid, and other decks have popped up that are very difficult matches. Living End is surprisingly difficult to beat in its new form. Before sideboard hate is taken into account, a good 20% of the meta is filled with bad match-ups. A non-zero percent of the meta has sideboard hate that is difficult or impossible to predict (decks in infancy, brews, a player who is changing things up), so we don't know whether to focus on enchantment destruction, discard, etc.
Aside from that, some of our sideboard hate in these match-ups is less effective. Darkblast is great against Elves and Company but doesn't stop the infinite mana combo. Storm can get 2-3 enablers Lightning Axed, Start/Finished, and Conflagrated only to rip another or go off with Empty the Warrens.
Every time I try to experiment with changes, it's frustrating because it is hard to tell why I'm getting good or bad results. Sacred Foundry may be good, Ray of Revelation may be good, sideboard into an alternative plan may be good. I dunno. I think it's good to play this deck, and I always will in paper (being an infrequent LGS player).
Got a 5-0, 10-5 grinder of a league yesterday. It took me 15 games, and at the end of the 15th, I was down to 0 cards in my library, hoping my Eldrazi Tron opponent didn't rip a Warping Wail to counter Conflagrate.
The going is rough lately. A few weeks/months ago (from the time of the GP and forward about four weeks), the meta was rotating around Death's Shadow more closely. We had Death's Shadow and mono-removal decks geared to beat it, and Dredge could easily beat those. Since, Elves, Storm, Knightfall, Vizier/Devoted Druid, and other decks have popped up that are very difficult matches. Living End is surprisingly difficult to beat in its new form. Before sideboard hate is taken into account, a good 20% of the meta is filled with bad match-ups. A non-zero percent of the meta has sideboard hate that is difficult or impossible to predict (decks in infancy, brews, a player who is changing things up), so we don't know whether to focus on enchantment destruction, discard, etc.
Aside from that, some of our sideboard hate in these match-ups is less effective. Darkblast is great against Elves and Company but doesn't stop the infinite mana combo. Storm can get 2-3 enablers Lightning Axed, Start/Finished, and Conflagrated only to rip another or go off with Empty the Warrens.
Every time I try to experiment with changes, it's frustrating because it is hard to tell why I'm getting good or bad results. Sacred Foundry may be good, Ray of Revelation may be good, sideboard into an alternative plan may be good. I dunno. I think it's good to play this deck, and I always will in paper (being an infrequent LGS player).
Agree 100%. I'm especially having trouble picking the right anti-hate.
My normal rules are:
* Expect Relic from Merfolk, non-W Tron (including Eldrazi Tron), Ad Nauseam, and anything else non-white that doesn't rely on the graveyard. Bring in artifact hate.
* Expect RIP from decks with access to W, (apart from Abzan CoCo, Knightfall, etc.). Bring enchantment hate.
* Expect Tormod's Crypt or Nihil Spellbomb against Bx and Bxy decks, including Death Shadow and Grixis Control/Delver. Bring artifact hate.
* Expect Scooze from any Gx toolbox deck and generally any Gx/Gxy fair deck. Bring Lightning Axe.
* Expect nothing from decks that can easily outrace us (Storm, Ad Nauseam, KCI, etc.). Only bring in anti-hate once I've seen it.
* Rarely expect Leyline of the Void (in my local meta it's almost non-existent, and since the GGT ban I've been seeing a lot less of it lately in general).
But lately I've run into several people splitting their GY hate between two cards. So instead of running 2x RIP in the board they'll run 1x RIP and 1x Surgical/Tormod's Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb. WTF do I board in when they're splitting their hate?
And lately my meta has gone Surgical-crazy. So I've been boarding in Memory's Journey, which feels awful because I essentially have to keep up G from turn 2 onwards.
I might just start keeping a written record of everyone's sideboard hate and bring it with me to games.
I've been getting into Modern Dredge and this primer has been super useful, thanks! I have a quick question though, why are people running 2 Ancient Grudges? Is it just for grafdigger's cage and affinity?
Don't be fooled, this is NOT an anti-hate card, but instead should only be used as the grave version of Grudge, best against Boogles and enchantment matters decks.
Lantern, I noticed this in the primer and I was wondering if you could expand. If my opponent plays RIP in game 2, for example, then shouldn't I bring in my Ray of Revelations for game 3?
Don't be fooled, this is NOT an anti-hate card, but instead should only be used as the grave version of Grudge, best against Boogles and enchantment matters decks.
Lantern, I noticed this in the primer and I was wondering if you could expand. If my opponent plays RIP in game 2, for example, then shouldn't I bring in my Ray of Revelations for game 3?
Well unless you're splashing white, it's going to be difficult to destroy a rest in peace with Ray of revelation.
I'm also of the opinion that it's incorrect to bring in cards to destroy rest in peace. I feel that frequently enough, the initial trigger of rest in peace will beat you, and it's better to try to hit it with discard.
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Its pretty much got everything to do with pain.
For reference, here is my deck and sideboard:
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
3 Copperline Gorge
2 Mountain
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Steam Vents
Creatures
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
2 Insolent Neonate
1 Haunted Dead
2 Shriekhorn
Other Spells
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Faithless Looting
3 Conflagrate
3 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
3 Nature's Claim
3 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Lightning Axe
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Darkblast
1 Gnaw to the Bone
Going off the top 6 on mtggoldfish. Ask if you want more sideboard plans
Affinity
-1 Bloodghast
-2 Golgari Thug
-1 Mountain
-2 Insolent Neonate
+1 Darkblast
+2 Ancient Grudge
+2 Lightning Axe
+1 Nature's Claim
Eldrazi Tron
-1 Bloodghast
-1 Darkblast
-1 Mountain
-1 Insolent Neonate
+2 Ancient Grudge
+2 Lightning Axe
Dredge
-1 Mountain
-1 Dakmor Salvage
-1 Golgari Thug
+1 Darkblast
+1 Gnaw to the Bone
+1 Bojuka Bog
Storm
+3 Thoughtseize
+2 Lightning Axe
+2 Collective Brutality
+1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Darkblast
-1 Mountain
-1 Dakmor Salvage
-1 Conflagrate
-1 Narcomoeba
-2 Insolent Neonate
-1 Shriekhorn
Burn
-1 Dakmor Salvage
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Bloodghast
-2 Shriekhorn
+2 Collective Brutality
+1 Gnaw to the Bone
+2 Lightning Axe
Death's Shadow
-1 Mountain
-1 Dakmor Salvage
-1 Darkblast
+1 Bojuka Bog
the rest depends on the archetype. I bring in Lightning Axes against Gurmag Angler and Tas, Thoughtseize/Brutality/Gnaw as I feel I can.
I am also unsure why 3 Thugs and 4 Loams over the over the way around (although again, I have seen a tendency to go down to 3 Loams). I find using 4 Thugs gives me much needed consistency when dredging. Rarely do you/will you have more than 1 Loam in Hand. And hitting Thug (or Imp for that matter) earlier for dredging increases the chances of everything else falling into place nicely. Dredge 1 can be a significant change.
As a reference, here is what I use:
4x Insolent Neonate
4x Narcomoeba
4x Bloodghast
4x Golgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Prized Amalgam
1x Haunted Dead
Sorceries
4x Faithless Looting
4x Cathartic Reunion
3x Life from the Loam
3x Conflagrate
4x Arid Mesa
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Stomping Ground
3x Copperline Gorge
1x Blood Crypt
2x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Gemstone Mine
2x Dakmor Salvage
2x Mountain
1x Forest
The Fetchland choices are mainly what I have (I think it shows). It is imperative to get Bloodstained Mire instead of Arid Mesa I take it?
It is exactly for this reason that you want 4 Life from the Loam and 3 Golgari Thug. It is counterintuitive, but think of it this way: Which card would you rather dredge? Which card would you rather have in your hand anyway? You are going to cast Life from the Loam the VAST majority of games that you win, but sometimes it feels sad to "waste" a dredge on it. You play 4 to have the maximum chance of having it in your opening hand and being free to dredge other pieces. All the while, it is also a dredger that "discards" itself or allows you to discard to hand size.
RE: Land count
I play 21 lands to make sure I have 14 green sources main because most keepable hands need G. Then I want 13 black sources games 2 and 3 when I want to resolve Thoughtseize, Duress, or Collective Brutality. I also want fetches and fetchable lands for maximum Bloodghast triggers. It is hard to pack the lands the right way at 19-20. Further than this, I want to be able to mulligan into a Neonate/Reunion/Looting + Dredger hand with R/G mana and preferably one more land.
That being said, I am intrigued that the top 4 Dredge list from MKM had 4 fetches and 19 lands.
Finally, fetches don't matter if they fetch mountains. Arid Mesa is just as good as anything else until you play a Forest or Overgrown Tomb.
Here is a link to my current list, for reference.
I like a 20 land list, with Scourge Devil in place of the 21st land. That card wins me a lot of games. Right now, I just can't see playing without it.
My sideboard is tooled to my current meta.
Please share your thoughts on storm match up. What do you side in, mb you have some specific techs?
What do you think about cycle land? I finished 5-0 few leagues with canyon, but still doubt if it is a good replacement for second dakmor.
Thanks!
I hate Scooze.
And yes, I may test 20 Lands later, but 21 feel good enough for me atm.
450 Unpowered Cube Cobra
But randomness has clusters. You hit a cluster. Bummer. Keep the faith. You'll be good again in no time.
Modern: Bogles // 8-Whack/Goblins // UW Titan // Hollow One // Affinity // Dredge
EDH: Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Atraxa, Praetor's Voice // Meren of Clan Nel Toth
The going is rough lately. A few weeks/months ago (from the time of the GP and forward about four weeks), the meta was rotating around Death's Shadow more closely. We had Death's Shadow and mono-removal decks geared to beat it, and Dredge could easily beat those. Since, Elves, Storm, Knightfall, Vizier/Devoted Druid, and other decks have popped up that are very difficult matches. Living End is surprisingly difficult to beat in its new form. Before sideboard hate is taken into account, a good 20% of the meta is filled with bad match-ups. A non-zero percent of the meta has sideboard hate that is difficult or impossible to predict (decks in infancy, brews, a player who is changing things up), so we don't know whether to focus on enchantment destruction, discard, etc.
Aside from that, some of our sideboard hate in these match-ups is less effective. Darkblast is great against Elves and Company but doesn't stop the infinite mana combo. Storm can get 2-3 enablers Lightning Axed, Start/Finished, and Conflagrated only to rip another or go off with Empty the Warrens.
Every time I try to experiment with changes, it's frustrating because it is hard to tell why I'm getting good or bad results. Sacred Foundry may be good, Ray of Revelation may be good, sideboard into an alternative plan may be good. I dunno. I think it's good to play this deck, and I always will in paper (being an infrequent LGS player).
Agree 100%. I'm especially having trouble picking the right anti-hate.
My normal rules are:
* Expect Relic from Merfolk, non-W Tron (including Eldrazi Tron), Ad Nauseam, and anything else non-white that doesn't rely on the graveyard. Bring in artifact hate.
* Expect RIP from decks with access to W, (apart from Abzan CoCo, Knightfall, etc.). Bring enchantment hate.
* Expect Tormod's Crypt or Nihil Spellbomb against Bx and Bxy decks, including Death Shadow and Grixis Control/Delver. Bring artifact hate.
* Expect Scooze from any Gx toolbox deck and generally any Gx/Gxy fair deck. Bring Lightning Axe.
* Expect nothing from decks that can easily outrace us (Storm, Ad Nauseam, KCI, etc.). Only bring in anti-hate once I've seen it.
* Rarely expect Leyline of the Void (in my local meta it's almost non-existent, and since the GGT ban I've been seeing a lot less of it lately in general).
But lately I've run into several people splitting their GY hate between two cards. So instead of running 2x RIP in the board they'll run 1x RIP and 1x Surgical/Tormod's Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb. WTF do I board in when they're splitting their hate?
And lately my meta has gone Surgical-crazy. So I've been boarding in Memory's Journey, which feels awful because I essentially have to keep up G from turn 2 onwards.
I might just start keeping a written record of everyone's sideboard hate and bring it with me to games.
Grafdigger's Cage, Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb, Wurmcoil Engine, Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge, and generally against Affinity, Lantern Control, and KCI/eggs.
Lantern, I noticed this in the primer and I was wondering if you could expand. If my opponent plays RIP in game 2, for example, then shouldn't I bring in my Ray of Revelations for game 3?
Well unless you're splashing white, it's going to be difficult to destroy a rest in peace with Ray of revelation.
I'm also of the opinion that it's incorrect to bring in cards to destroy rest in peace. I feel that frequently enough, the initial trigger of rest in peace will beat you, and it's better to try to hit it with discard.