Well, I wasn’t even thinking of Mana Confluence / City of Brass as the 20th land, but more as a part of our normal 18-19 land manabase. I mean, we’ve all talked about our lack of a backup plan and difficulties in playing cards like Reveillark / Protean Hulk / Woodfall Primus, and how we can’t pay for Summoner’s Pact’s upkeep, so we don’t run it, etc. Why wouldn’t a primarily Rainbow manabase be a solid thing? Here’s an example of what I’m talking about (remember, just brainstorming here):
It’s still 19 land, but has 8 of the 19 lands being able to produce any color, giving us access to so many things. SB cards we haven’t looked into like Grisly Salvage and hardcasting cards we normally wouldn’t include due to the mana costs. Remember, our deck goes off turns 2-4 and only hits the long game when we can’t find our pieces quickly. How much self-inflicted damage will we really do to ourselves that Fetching for Shock lands won’t already do to us? I mean, a Dredge list (which can win turns 1-3), run 12-13 lands. 4 Cephalid Coliseum, 3-4 Mana Confluence, 4 Gemstone Mine and 1-2 City of Brass. The idea is: I don’t care what I have in hand, all my mana can pay for all my spells. With our deck, yes it’s primarily Grixis, but runs White and Green cards that we usually can’t pay for if we ever needed to hardcast it (like topdecking a Hulk empty handed). Anyway, just adding to the discussion.
-Yawg
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From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began. — Phyrexian Scriptures
Sometimes I play a 20th land and it is usually City of Brass. I have actually encountered a situation where winning at 1 life with a lethal city trigger on the stack was a real possibility, so I tend to use city even though most would argue for confluence.
At any rate, if you want a 20th land, 1 City/confluence is fine. The pain is manageable.
how? your spell doesn't resolve before the trigger
Sometimes I play a 20th land and it is usually City of Brass. I have actually encountered a situation where winning at 1 life with a lethal city trigger on the stack was a real possibility, so I tend to use city even though most would argue for confluence.
At any rate, if you want a 20th land, 1 City/confluence is fine. The pain is manageable.
how? your spell doesn't resolve before the trigger
False. Tap City, float a mana, ability triggers, cast spell above City trigger on stack FTW.
I'm not sure that a rainbow manabase is really necessary. By the time that we would be hard casting a hulk or a primus, we should already be so far behind that they won't really help. As far as reveillark goes, its pretty easy to splash a 4th color with a couple shock lands. I personally only use shocks, fetchs and basics.
On the topic of summoner's pact, not being able to pay for the trigger is one of the things stopping it from being played, but even more so is the fact that it requires an additional discard source to work. So for example, even if we had green mana available, it costs 4 which means we need 4 mana already on the ground to pay for the trigger. This means that either we cast it and then on the same turn cast a loot spell and a reanimation spell (best case turn 4) or else we have to wait till the next turn at which point we have to pay for pact (comboing off in responce nullifies the usefulness of having green mana) which then delays us another turn. More often then not summoner's pact will result in a turn 6 combo in any of the cases where we would want to pay for the trigger (turn 4 use it and cast discard, turn 5 pay for trigger, turn 6 combo). When compared to gifts which can get the hulk in the grave without requiring any other cards and will half the time be even a turn faster than pact except on rare occasions where you have footsteps, faithless, pact at which point you don't care much about having green mana.
All in all I think grixis manabase with a light white splash is the way to go (Even if using primus). Green is possible as well of course (For using abrupt decay and nature's claim as anti hate and maybe for thragtusk in the anti-leyline spot), but then you wouldn't need white on top of that. I've tried both and I prefer white because of hardcasting Revaillark and also because of Timely Reinforcements.
The big cuts were Pact of Negation, Simian Spirit Guide, Makeshift Mannequin, and Taigam's Scheming. I think the midrange / interactive elements like Bolt, Remand & Thoughtseize do enough to disrupt the opponent and buy us time to make up for the loss of Pact and SSG, so I think the biggest loss is having a slightly less consistent combo (by cutting MM & Scheming). I don't really think that's avoidable though, if you want decent interaction and a plan B.
On the other hand, Jace seems like he could be great for the deck, serving as dig & a discard outlet that might be able to come close to filling the role of the cut cards. Unfortunately he 'turns on' opponents Bolts, but once flipped he can offer a decent plan B & more strength in a longer game. Tasigur & Angler help to defend against agressive starts, and against opponents that would focus their resources on disrupting our combo these can put them on a clock, and in general they offer another way to win. Delving to pay for them is very easy for this deck, and the Cliques in the SB are there to supplement that gameplan.
Thoughtseize can be used to pitch Hulk for minor upside and offers information on the opponent's hand, and Remand can be used to protect the combo sometimes but it and Bolt are mostly there to buy time & disrupt problem cards like Scavenging Ooze or Aven Mindcensor while also adding value to Tasigur & Jace. In general the interaction suite was put together quickly and might not be the best set of cards for us, for example Remand might be better as Spell Pierce & Thoughtseize might be better as Inquisition.
The big question I have about this list--which can probably only be answered by testing--is how much value Jace will really offer in digging to a combo. It's possible he'll just insta-flip when you'd rather keep him around as a looter more often (also possible that Tasigur delving will mitigate that).
I'm really curious what those working on 'plan B' shells think of the idea; this is quick draft and it's clearly not as fast and consistent as the linear combo shell, but it does still offer turn 3 combos & has a much better chance of winning a game that goes longer in my opinion. I'm definitely not convinced a linear combo plan isn't the strongest option, but I think this shell is something interesting to consider.
False. Tap City, float a mana, ability triggers, cast spell above City trigger on stack FTW.
It involved a situation sopmething like this: I was at 1 life and opponent was keeping up a white source. I could footsteps my hulk and kill it with a murderous cut I boarded in, thus beating path. I had 4 lands and one was a City, so I would have cast the Cut off the City in the manner Programmer_112 described. Turns out the guy was bluffing path so I didn't have to live the dream.
Personally I think the Painland manabase is just too painful. The more your lands hurt yourself the worse the aggro matchup gets, and the worse matchups that might go long get.
As for the people trying to build a better backup plan, I think it dilutes both strategies too much. Leaving the combo in means you don't have enough disruption to back up an early Tasigur, and you lose out on the elements that make the combo consistent. Jace might be good enough to include anyway but I'm not convinced. I think a transformational sideboard might be a better way to go if you want to try something along those lines, but I haven't put much thought into how that would work.
Follow-up on Jace, Vryn's Prodigy testing: He's actually been quite good (really small sample size so far). Against really agressive starts (that might usually give this deck trouble) the chance to Bolt, block with Jace & tap to loot and flip, then untap next turn to Bolt again has come up and been a huge help, being able to delve away cards to keep him looting instead of flipping has come up, and I've been able to continue to dig after flipping him a few times by buying back Izzet Charms. In general after looting your hand dry if you haven't found the combo yet he really helps you rev the digging engine back up. He also keeps opponents guessing longer (after seeing a Jace nobody expects a combo finish and certainly not Hulk).
Well I cut two lands and 1 of the blast I would have 3 spots open. Would it be better to just go for filling out 4 ofs or just experiment with new testing cards?
use 4 ofs!
round out 4 izzet charm for instance. 4 taigam scheeming as well
Follow-up on Jace, Vryn's Prodigy testing: He's actually been quite good (really small sample size so far). Against really agressive starts (that might usually give this deck trouble) the chance to Bolt, block with Jace & tap to loot and flip, then untap next turn to Bolt again has come up and been a huge help, being able to delve away cards to keep him looting instead of flipping has come up, and I've been able to continue to dig after flipping him a few times by buying back Izzet Charms. In general after looting your hand dry if you haven't found the combo yet he really helps you rev the digging engine back up. He also keeps opponents guessing longer (after seeing a Jace nobody expects a combo finish and certainly not Hulk).
i dunno, magus of the bazaar could do similar for this deck, without the whole planeswalker option.
Follow-up on Jace, Vryn's Prodigy testing: He's actually been quite good (really small sample size so far). Against really agressive starts (that might usually give this deck trouble) the chance to Bolt, block with Jace & tap to loot and flip, then untap next turn to Bolt again has come up and been a huge help, being able to delve away cards to keep him looting instead of flipping has come up, and I've been able to continue to dig after flipping him a few times by buying back Izzet Charms. In general after looting your hand dry if you haven't found the combo yet he really helps you rev the digging engine back up. He also keeps opponents guessing longer (after seeing a Jace nobody expects a combo finish and certainly not Hulk).
i dunno, magus of the bazaar could do similar for this deck, without the whole planeswalker option.
Magus is like a much much weaker version of Jace that fails to offer more value in a longer game (via the planeswalker flip) which is one of the main reasons to consider Jace in the first place. Jace is interesting because he offers versatility that the deck doesn't have as-is.
It is cool that Magus digs you a card deeper, but because you discard more than you draw there would often be situations where Magus can't be activated because it would mean discarding a critical spell you're holding. If I were interested in a Bazaar effect to just dig and fill my yard as quickly as possible Scheming and even Glimpse of the Unthinkable are better.
Now if Magus said "T: draw 2, discard 2" we might have a contender.
That’s actually an interesting point I’d like to talk about. While some people are trying to make the deck more consistent as far as having a backup plan (Woodfall& Co.), there’s others, like me, just looking to make the COMBO more consistent. We had talked about Jace, Vryn’s Prodigy, as being a Merfolk Looter, digging to our combo piece and pitching cards like Hulk. We talked about actual Merfolk Looter, and if it’s worth it or not. Magus of the Bazaar is a whole different Looter that I didn’t even think about, but I feel is WAY more appropriate if that’s the avenue we’re trying to walk down. Here’s how I’d break it down:
So, for the primary function of the creature, I think that Magus is the best of the three. They all have slight differences in P/T, but in the world of Lightning Bolts, Commands and Electrolyzes, who cares if you have a 1 or 2 toughness. Having a power is really negligible too, because how often are you going to be pulling off the Looter beatdown strategy? The only other real comparison is the extra ability on Jace and the other side, Jace, Telepath Unbound.
So, I feel like this is a boon and curse at the same time. Sometimes, you just want to churn through your deck to find your missing piece. There are times where Jace is best as a Prodigy, and not as a ‘Walker. Basically, if you’re running him, you should get 1, maybe 2, activations off Prodigy before he flips. Once flipped, he’s good for Snapcaster-ing a spell, but unless you have a card like Faithless Looting in the GY, he’s no longer good to keep digging for that missing piece. On the flip-side of this argument, having Jace flipped into the ‘walker side, you get to Snapcast anything. This could be great to reuse cards you can’t normally play from GY, like Lightning Axe, Izzet Charm, or if you dumped a Footsteps of the Goryo or Makeshift Mannequin while looting.
So, In my opinion, Magus is a serious contender in my eyes. I didn’t even think of him until you mentioned it, but it’s a mega-Looter. It dies just as easy as any other creature (and doesn’t have a giant bulls-eye on its head like Jace does), but digs much more efficiently than the other cards do. I’m going to go and purchase a playset and test. If the speed version isn’t working well enough for me, I’m going to start testing with these dig creatures to see if that improves consistency.
*Edit* After thinking about it, if we're going this route, Ideas Unbound is just better than all, imo.
Quick Idea:
What does everyone thing of Tormenting Voice? Grishoalbrand decks run it, and it seems like a solid card for what we want to do. Yes, the discard first part seems counterproductive, but if you’re looking for a reanimate spell and have a target in hand, it seems to be a good card. Even without a target in hand, pitching a land / Faithless Looting / Reveillark / etc, and drawing 2 for 1R seems okay as a singleton or as a x2 in the deck. Has anyone tried this card?
That’s actually an interesting point I’d like to talk about. While some people are trying to make the deck more consistent as far as having a backup plan (Woodfall& Co.), there’s others, like me, just looking to make the COMBO more consistent. We had talked about Jace, Vryn’s Prodigy, as being a Merfolk Looter, digging to our combo piece and pitching cards like Hulk. We talked about actual Merfolk Looter, and if it’s worth it or not. Magus of the Bazaar is a whole different Looter that I didn’t even think about, but I feel is WAY more appropriate if that’s the avenue we’re trying to walk down. Here’s how I’d break it down:
So, for the primary function of the creature, I think that Magus is the best of the three. They all have slight differences in P/T, but in the world of Lightning Bolts, Commands and Electrolyzes, who cares if you have a 1 or 2 toughness. Having a power is really negligible too, because how often are you going to be pulling off the Looter beatdown strategy? The only other real comparison is the extra ability on Jace and the other side, Jace, Telepath Unbound.
So, I feel like this is a boon and curse at the same time. Sometimes, you just want to churn through your deck to find your missing piece. There are times where Jace is best as a Prodigy, and not as a ‘Walker. Basically, if you’re running him, you should get 1, maybe 2, activations off Prodigy before he flips. Once flipped, he’s good for Snapcaster-ing a spell, but unless you have a card like Faithless Looting in the GY, he’s no longer good to keep digging for that missing piece. On the flip-side of this argument, having Jace flipped into the ‘walker side, you get to Snapcast anything. This could be great to reuse cards you can’t normally play from GY, like Lightning Axe, Izzet Charm, or if you dumped a Footsteps of the Goryo or Makeshift Mannequin while looting.
So, In my opinion, Magus is a serious contender in my eyes. I didn’t even think of him until you mentioned it, but it’s a mega-Looter. It dies just as easy as any other creature (and doesn’t have a giant bulls-eye on its head like Jace does), but digs much more efficiently than the other cards do. I’m going to go and purchase a playset and test. If the speed version isn’t working well enough for me, I’m going to start testing with these dig creatures to see if that improves consistency.
*Edit* After thinking about it, if we're going this route, Ideas Unbound is just better than all, imo.
Quick Idea:
What does everyone thing of Tormenting Voice? Grishoalbrand decks run it, and it seems like a solid card for what we want to do. Yes, the discard first part seems counterproductive, but if you’re looking for a reanimate spell and have a target in hand, it seems to be a good card. Even without a target in hand, pitching a land / Faithless Looting / Reveillark / etc, and drawing 2 for 1R seems okay as a singleton or as a x2 in the deck. Has anyone tried this card?
-Yawg
Idea's was in older versions but has since been replaced by Scheming. As far as tormenting voice, grislebrand plays it because they don't have access to blue. I could maybe see it in a more interactive version of the deck instead of Scheming but for pure combo it would just lessen the consistency of the deck and take up the spot of a better card. The dig selection is pretty well tuned for the most part in the deck. I would only really consider options that are truly enhancements to the current ones via digging deeper.
Round 1 vs UWR Control (2-0)
Game 1 I get stuck on 2 lands for a bit but I just patiently draw cards and dig a bit. Eventually I stock up on 2 Pacts, discard a Hulk to the hand size rule, and win the counterwar to combo out the next turn. Game 2 I play assuming there'll be a RIP since he's playing white, although he's also playing Snapcaster so maybe not. I slow roll, wary of hate; I can afford to since his deck is mad slow. I sandbag an Izzet Charm and a hulk until I'm ready to go off, then discard the hulk in his endstep. End up with ALL 4 PACTS in my hand when I went off. Needless to say, I went off undisrupted.
Round 2 vs Affinity (2-0)
Game 1 is just a race. I won the die roll, and go turn 1 Visions, turn 2 looting, turn 3 win with pact backup. About as perfect as I could ask for. Game 3 I expect some grave hate and spell pierces. I board in my Lightning Axes, Echoing Truths, and Needle. He has a slow start and I am able to keep him down, land a needle on Cranial Plating to buy a turn against his manland, and then combo out with 2 mana available to pay for a spell pierce. Never saw grave hate.
Round 3 vs Infect (2-0)
Game 1 I am lucky to get a Murderous Cut in my opener, and cut down one of his guys which buys me a turn or two and I combo out easily. Nothing fancy, but the guy sat there for about 3 full minutes while he tried to understand what just happened before he reached for his sideboard. Game 2 I board in more kill spells and my echoing truths. I play the control deck, keeping the field clear with Izzet Charms and Lightning Axes until I can loot and footsteps in the same turn for the win while he's tapped out.
Round 4 vs Infect (0-2)
Here's where it all went wrong. I'd played real sharp all night, so I was due to punt like a champ i guess. Game 1 he's on the play. We both mull and I keep a sketchy 5. He kills me on turn 3 and I go down looking. It happens. Game 2 is where I threw it away. I lead with a serum visions, draw the Fanatic, and scry a lightning axe to the top. He plays a glistener elf and on my turn I Axe it, pitching the Mogg, effectively 2-for-1-ing myself. Could have just used the Mogg on the Elf and saved the axe for another threat. I am lucky and the game lasts a couple more turns, giving me another chance to bungle it. On what turns out to be my last turn, I have 3 lands, Echoing truth and footsteps in hand and hulk in the grave. I draw thoughtseize and he's holding up a blue mana. I decide to cast the thoughtseize, and he spell pierces it. I then cast a redundant viscera seer, taking myself off mana to play echoing truth. On his turn he kills me, but had I left up E.Truth I would have bounced his threat, untapped, and won. Oh well.
Well I don't own a venser. If I did I would have considered him. But my meta often has a lot of ghost quarter, tec edge, blood moon, etc. I was concerned about people trying to keep me off black mana. Also I wanted something I could just cast in a pinch to try to grind a win. Finally, I've had at least one person bring in torpor orb against me even though it doesn't do anything, but titan can't go infinite through that so on the off-chance someone brought in leyline and torpor orb, wurmcoil still seals the deal. Basically there are tons of valid options for alternate kills and I picked the one I thought best suited what I expected to face. It was never relevant, I never needed the big guy.
I don't quite understand the worry about Leyline of Sanctity and alternate wincon. If we footsteps hulk and have to wait until next turn to attack for the win, why not just scrye to the top our out to Leyline, draw it next turn, then win per normal. Seems like a waste of a sideboard slot.
I don't quite understand the worry about Leyline of Sanctity and alternate wincon. If we footsteps hulk and have to wait until next turn to attack for the win, why not just scrye to the top our out to Leyline, draw it next turn, then win per normal. Seems like a waste of a sideboard slot.
Something like Ad Nauseam, that runs Leyline, and has a instant win combo, can just straight up kill you on the turn you are forced to wait. Merfolk is capable of just island walking you to death on that turn of waiting also.
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Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
I don't quite understand the worry about Leyline of Sanctity and alternate wincon. If we footsteps hulk and have to wait until next turn to attack for the win, why not just scrye to the top our out to Leyline, draw it next turn, then win per normal. Seems like a waste of a sideboard slot.
You can actually do both, make infinite attackers and then scry the desired card to the top anyway as backup. I never swap out the Mogg Fanatic, even if I bring in the alternate plan, so the normal kill is always an option. The downside of just scrying your answer to the top without a backup plan is that means you need to force 2 spells through possible disruption, your reanimation spell and your answer spell.
There are outs to leyline that win on the spot if that's your style. They've been discussed heavily in this thread (or maybe it was the old thread), but in my opinion Thopter Engineer is the best of those options.
I've been trying to say this all along. Kalastria Healer gets around any possible leyline of sanctity or witchbane orbs. You don't need to attack with a million thopters like you do with the thopter alternative.
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3 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Mana Confluence
2 City of Brass
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
It’s still 19 land, but has 8 of the 19 lands being able to produce any color, giving us access to so many things. SB cards we haven’t looked into like Grisly Salvage and hardcasting cards we normally wouldn’t include due to the mana costs. Remember, our deck goes off turns 2-4 and only hits the long game when we can’t find our pieces quickly. How much self-inflicted damage will we really do to ourselves that Fetching for Shock lands won’t already do to us? I mean, a Dredge list (which can win turns 1-3), run 12-13 lands. 4 Cephalid Coliseum, 3-4 Mana Confluence, 4 Gemstone Mine and 1-2 City of Brass. The idea is: I don’t care what I have in hand, all my mana can pay for all my spells. With our deck, yes it’s primarily Grixis, but runs White and Green cards that we usually can’t pay for if we ever needed to hardcast it (like topdecking a Hulk empty handed). Anyway, just adding to the discussion.
-Yawg
how? your spell doesn't resolve before the trigger
False. Tap City, float a mana, ability triggers, cast spell above City trigger on stack FTW.
On the topic of summoner's pact, not being able to pay for the trigger is one of the things stopping it from being played, but even more so is the fact that it requires an additional discard source to work. So for example, even if we had green mana available, it costs 4 which means we need 4 mana already on the ground to pay for the trigger. This means that either we cast it and then on the same turn cast a loot spell and a reanimation spell (best case turn 4) or else we have to wait till the next turn at which point we have to pay for pact (comboing off in responce nullifies the usefulness of having green mana) which then delays us another turn. More often then not summoner's pact will result in a turn 6 combo in any of the cases where we would want to pay for the trigger (turn 4 use it and cast discard, turn 5 pay for trigger, turn 6 combo). When compared to gifts which can get the hulk in the grave without requiring any other cards and will half the time be even a turn faster than pact except on rare occasions where you have footsteps, faithless, pact at which point you don't care much about having green mana.
All in all I think grixis manabase with a light white splash is the way to go (Even if using primus). Green is possible as well of course (For using abrupt decay and nature's claim as anti hate and maybe for thragtusk in the anti-leyline spot), but then you wouldn't need white on top of that. I've tried both and I prefer white because of hardcasting Revaillark and also because of Timely Reinforcements.
-1 fetchland
-1 Darkblast
-1 Makeshift
+3 SSGS
Also going to try out this as my sideboard. Another option I want to try is 2 Breaches and 1 Emmy in sideboard.
1 Thopter Engineer
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Sorceries (1)
1 Pyroclasm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Murderous Cut
3 Swan Song
2 Pithing Needle
Enchantments (3)
3 Leyline of Sanctity
Land (1)
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
GWU Eldrazi
BRG Living End
WBG JunkFit
I was thinking about something like this:
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Blood Crypt
New Toys:
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Remand
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
4 Faithless Looting
3 Izzet Charm
Combo:
4 Protean Hulk
4 Footsteps of the Goryo
2 Reveillark
2 Viscera Seer
2 Body Double
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Echoing Truth
2 Swan Song
1 Lightning Axe
1 Grave Titan
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Wear // Tear
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Steel Sabotage
The big cuts were Pact of Negation, Simian Spirit Guide, Makeshift Mannequin, and Taigam's Scheming. I think the midrange / interactive elements like Bolt, Remand & Thoughtseize do enough to disrupt the opponent and buy us time to make up for the loss of Pact and SSG, so I think the biggest loss is having a slightly less consistent combo (by cutting MM & Scheming). I don't really think that's avoidable though, if you want decent interaction and a plan B.
On the other hand, Jace seems like he could be great for the deck, serving as dig & a discard outlet that might be able to come close to filling the role of the cut cards. Unfortunately he 'turns on' opponents Bolts, but once flipped he can offer a decent plan B & more strength in a longer game. Tasigur & Angler help to defend against agressive starts, and against opponents that would focus their resources on disrupting our combo these can put them on a clock, and in general they offer another way to win. Delving to pay for them is very easy for this deck, and the Cliques in the SB are there to supplement that gameplan.
Thoughtseize can be used to pitch Hulk for minor upside and offers information on the opponent's hand, and Remand can be used to protect the combo sometimes but it and Bolt are mostly there to buy time & disrupt problem cards like Scavenging Ooze or Aven Mindcensor while also adding value to Tasigur & Jace. In general the interaction suite was put together quickly and might not be the best set of cards for us, for example Remand might be better as Spell Pierce & Thoughtseize might be better as Inquisition.
The big question I have about this list--which can probably only be answered by testing--is how much value Jace will really offer in digging to a combo. It's possible he'll just insta-flip when you'd rather keep him around as a looter more often (also possible that Tasigur delving will mitigate that).
I'm really curious what those working on 'plan B' shells think of the idea; this is quick draft and it's clearly not as fast and consistent as the linear combo shell, but it does still offer turn 3 combos & has a much better chance of winning a game that goes longer in my opinion. I'm definitely not convinced a linear combo plan isn't the strongest option, but I think this shell is something interesting to consider.
It involved a situation sopmething like this: I was at 1 life and opponent was keeping up a white source. I could footsteps my hulk and kill it with a murderous cut I boarded in, thus beating path. I had 4 lands and one was a City, so I would have cast the Cut off the City in the manner Programmer_112 described. Turns out the guy was bluffing path so I didn't have to live the dream.
Personally I think the Painland manabase is just too painful. The more your lands hurt yourself the worse the aggro matchup gets, and the worse matchups that might go long get.
As for the people trying to build a better backup plan, I think it dilutes both strategies too much. Leaving the combo in means you don't have enough disruption to back up an early Tasigur, and you lose out on the elements that make the combo consistent. Jace might be good enough to include anyway but I'm not convinced. I think a transformational sideboard might be a better way to go if you want to try something along those lines, but I haven't put much thought into how that would work.
use 4 ofs!
round out 4 izzet charm for instance. 4 taigam scheeming as well
i dunno, magus of the bazaar could do similar for this deck, without the whole planeswalker option.
It is cool that Magus digs you a card deeper, but because you discard more than you draw there would often be situations where Magus can't be activated because it would mean discarding a critical spell you're holding. If I were interested in a Bazaar effect to just dig and fill my yard as quickly as possible Scheming and even Glimpse of the Unthinkable are better.
Now if Magus said "T: draw 2, discard 2" we might have a contender.
Jace, Vryn’s Prodigy
1U
0/2
T: Draw 1, Discard 1.
Merfolk Looter / Thought Courier
1U
1/1
T: Draw 1, Discard 1.
Magus of the Bazaar
1U
0/1
T: Draw 2, Discard 3.
So, for the primary function of the creature, I think that Magus is the best of the three. They all have slight differences in P/T, but in the world of Lightning Bolts, Commands and Electrolyzes, who cares if you have a 1 or 2 toughness. Having a power is really negligible too, because how often are you going to be pulling off the Looter beatdown strategy? The only other real comparison is the extra ability on Jace and the other side, Jace, Telepath Unbound.
So, I feel like this is a boon and curse at the same time. Sometimes, you just want to churn through your deck to find your missing piece. There are times where Jace is best as a Prodigy, and not as a ‘Walker. Basically, if you’re running him, you should get 1, maybe 2, activations off Prodigy before he flips. Once flipped, he’s good for Snapcaster-ing a spell, but unless you have a card like Faithless Looting in the GY, he’s no longer good to keep digging for that missing piece. On the flip-side of this argument, having Jace flipped into the ‘walker side, you get to Snapcast anything. This could be great to reuse cards you can’t normally play from GY, like Lightning Axe, Izzet Charm, or if you dumped a Footsteps of the Goryo or Makeshift Mannequin while looting.
So, In my opinion, Magus is a serious contender in my eyes. I didn’t even think of him until you mentioned it, but it’s a mega-Looter. It dies just as easy as any other creature (and doesn’t have a giant bulls-eye on its head like Jace does), but digs much more efficiently than the other cards do. I’m going to go and purchase a playset and test. If the speed version isn’t working well enough for me, I’m going to start testing with these dig creatures to see if that improves consistency.
*Edit* After thinking about it, if we're going this route, Ideas Unbound is just better than all, imo.
Quick Idea:
What does everyone thing of Tormenting Voice? Grishoalbrand decks run it, and it seems like a solid card for what we want to do. Yes, the discard first part seems counterproductive, but if you’re looking for a reanimate spell and have a target in hand, it seems to be a good card. Even without a target in hand, pitching a land / Faithless Looting / Reveillark / etc, and drawing 2 for 1R seems okay as a singleton or as a x2 in the deck. Has anyone tried this card?
-Yawg
Idea's was in older versions but has since been replaced by Scheming. As far as tormenting voice, grislebrand plays it because they don't have access to blue. I could maybe see it in a more interactive version of the deck instead of Scheming but for pure combo it would just lessen the consistency of the deck and take up the spot of a better card. The dig selection is pretty well tuned for the most part in the deck. I would only really consider options that are truly enhancements to the current ones via digging deeper.
4 Protean Hulk
4 Footsteps of the Goryo
2 Makeshift Mannequin
2 Body Double
2 Reveillark
3 Viscera Seer
1 Mogg Fanatic
Dig---
4 Serum Visions
4 Faithless Looting
4 Taigam's Scheming
3 Izzet Charm
4 Pact of Negation
2 Thoughtseize
2 Murderous Cut
Mana---
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Island
2 Swamp
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Echoing Truth
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
2 Lightning Axe
1 Dispel
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Round 1 vs UWR Control (2-0)
Game 1 I get stuck on 2 lands for a bit but I just patiently draw cards and dig a bit. Eventually I stock up on 2 Pacts, discard a Hulk to the hand size rule, and win the counterwar to combo out the next turn. Game 2 I play assuming there'll be a RIP since he's playing white, although he's also playing Snapcaster so maybe not. I slow roll, wary of hate; I can afford to since his deck is mad slow. I sandbag an Izzet Charm and a hulk until I'm ready to go off, then discard the hulk in his endstep. End up with ALL 4 PACTS in my hand when I went off. Needless to say, I went off undisrupted.
Round 2 vs Affinity (2-0)
Game 1 is just a race. I won the die roll, and go turn 1 Visions, turn 2 looting, turn 3 win with pact backup. About as perfect as I could ask for. Game 3 I expect some grave hate and spell pierces. I board in my Lightning Axes, Echoing Truths, and Needle. He has a slow start and I am able to keep him down, land a needle on Cranial Plating to buy a turn against his manland, and then combo out with 2 mana available to pay for a spell pierce. Never saw grave hate.
Round 3 vs Infect (2-0)
Game 1 I am lucky to get a Murderous Cut in my opener, and cut down one of his guys which buys me a turn or two and I combo out easily. Nothing fancy, but the guy sat there for about 3 full minutes while he tried to understand what just happened before he reached for his sideboard. Game 2 I board in more kill spells and my echoing truths. I play the control deck, keeping the field clear with Izzet Charms and Lightning Axes until I can loot and footsteps in the same turn for the win while he's tapped out.
Round 4 vs Infect (0-2)
Here's where it all went wrong. I'd played real sharp all night, so I was due to punt like a champ i guess. Game 1 he's on the play. We both mull and I keep a sketchy 5. He kills me on turn 3 and I go down looking. It happens. Game 2 is where I threw it away. I lead with a serum visions, draw the Fanatic, and scry a lightning axe to the top. He plays a glistener elf and on my turn I Axe it, pitching the Mogg, effectively 2-for-1-ing myself. Could have just used the Mogg on the Elf and saved the axe for another threat. I am lucky and the game lasts a couple more turns, giving me another chance to bungle it. On what turns out to be my last turn, I have 3 lands, Echoing truth and footsteps in hand and hulk in the grave. I draw thoughtseize and he's holding up a blue mana. I decide to cast the thoughtseize, and he spell pierces it. I then cast a redundant viscera seer, taking myself off mana to play echoing truth. On his turn he kills me, but had I left up E.Truth I would have bounced his threat, untapped, and won. Oh well.
You can actually do both, make infinite attackers and then scry the desired card to the top anyway as backup. I never swap out the Mogg Fanatic, even if I bring in the alternate plan, so the normal kill is always an option. The downside of just scrying your answer to the top without a backup plan is that means you need to force 2 spells through possible disruption, your reanimation spell and your answer spell.
There are outs to leyline that win on the spot if that's your style. They've been discussed heavily in this thread (or maybe it was the old thread), but in my opinion Thopter Engineer is the best of those options.