Yes, that was what I was thinking -- 4 ghost quarters (or a mix of field of ruin), 8 fetches,2-4 horizon canopies and 3-4 kotr should make revolt pretty reliable, and kotr + rallier synergize well.
I ran that one night with only 1 witness and the synergy is quite powerful between KOTR and Rallier. I'd look at 1 Rhonas (or entity)/1 witness/4 kotr/4 rallier as the 3-drop package for such a deck as the starting point.
I think the deck is pretty good in the current meta. Mostly you need to evaluate what part of the game you need to play.
Nice to see you still play the deck.
How do you fill in the flex spots in the deck?
I knew what most of the 21 players were on. There were 2 Tron, 1 E Tron, 1 Grishoalbrand, 1 Storm, 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Jeskai, and probably some other stuff that I expected to not win. Modern is a really polarized format in my opinion where it's really tough to utilize play skill to make up for a poor matchup and poor draws. Not to mention, the last time I played Abzan Company against Burn, it was slightly less than 50% and there were also 2 Burn players.
What do you think are our good matchups? (this question is for everyone)
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I think 4 duskwatch recruiters are too slow. Yes they give you card advantage but in the late game. It losses so much tempo. I am also not a fan of renegade rallier since it is too situational, must get to trigger revolt and a value card in graveyard. Haven’t tested it with ghost quarters, which may work.
Being the deck that can be constructed to have good matchups all around is not that great when the meta is rapidly shifting and full of different angled proactive decks. We also have way fewer toolbox slots than we used to with the whole dual combo thing.
I think that the defining question of this deck is "Is Kitchen Finks a good magic card right now?" and the answer to that has been "No" for the last 2 years give or take. The druid combo is much stronger in Elves than it is in a separate combo deck shell, and that's pretty much the bottom line to me sadly.
And that's why my collected companies are in the binder atm, sadly. But I still like to think about the deck.
Being the deck that can be constructed to have good matchups all around is not that great when the meta is rapidly shifting and full of different angled proactive decks. We also have way fewer toolbox slots than we used to with the whole dual combo thing.
I think that the defining question of this deck is "Is Kitchen Finks a good magic card right now?" and the answer to that has been "No" for the last 2 years give or take. The druid combo is much stronger in Elves than it is in a separate combo deck shell, and that's pretty much the bottom line to me sadly.
I've run pure Naya with Knights before as well and it is quite decent, but there's really no call for Coursers or Voices or anything imho.
Can't agree with the above statement more, I'm actually test Naya Druid now. I'm still in the early stages of testing but Tron and GDS feel better Due to Rhonas Being less mana intense to use since Knight & trackers turn him on/toolbox lands.
Being the deck that can be constructed to have good matchups all around is not that great when the meta is rapidly shifting and full of different angled proactive decks. We also have way fewer toolbox slots than we used to with the whole dual combo thing.
I think that the defining question of this deck is "Is Kitchen Finks a good magic card right now?" and the answer to that has been "No" for the last 2 years give or take. The druid combo is much stronger in Elves than it is in a separate combo deck shell, and that's pretty much the bottom line to me sadly.
And that's why my collected companies are in the binder atm, sadly. But I still like to think about the deck.
Abzan Company is still tier 1, and if you think Finks isn't good because some T1 matchups like Storm, Tron, and Eldrazi don't care about Finks, then you're forgetting the rest of the meta that does hurt from Finks like Burn, D&T, Control decks ect.
Burn is the only deck that it is particularly good against. D&T's creatures outclass kitchen finks unless you have a township, and they have plenty of LD to deal with that. D&T also is not really a deck in comparison to the other decks from a results and pervasiveness perspective.
Control decks these days are not really that concerned with kitchen finks. It's an OK card, but it's much worse than Renegade Rallier which gains tempo instead of a 2/1 body. If you just cut finks for rallier you'd be much stronger vs. Control shells (as you get an actual desirable card vs. one that dies to half of Electrolyze).
Kitchen finks is in a place where it is terrible against most of the meta:
Storm
Tron
Eldrazi
Valakut
Affinity
And mediocre against the rest, and good against burn. It's pretty solid against GDS, though less so than you think because their creatures outclass it. Great with township but average otherwise.
The last time I played it I sided out 3 finks in 3 out of 4 matches. I'm pretty confident that without a Jund style deck that really feels threatened by finks playing main deck finks is the wrong place to be right now.
Abzan company being tier 1 is an artifact of the system they're using these days. It isn't putting up any results that I can see. There wasn't even one in the top 32 of the last modern GP was there?
Do you all think Ravenous Chupacabra has any place in the deck or board anywhere? I'm happy to pay 1 more mana for a big game hunter that hits anything.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Do you all think Ravenous Chupacabra has any place in the deck or board anywhere? I'm happy to pay 1 more mana for a big game hunter that hits anything.
No way. Double black is too hard to get + 4 mana is not compatible with company.
This deck's played double black before both maindeck and in the board and it wasnt that long ago that the deck played Archangel of Thune. Not to mention linvala is a common enough sideboard card. Just cause a card cant be hit by company doesnt mean it's instantly disqualified.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
I think there's place for testing a less white intensive build that plays a redcap main and chupacabra side. The black sideboard cards are much better than the white ones for the most part, so I see no issue trying that at least.
Redcap was actually deceptively powerful.
You'd have to shave some canopies probably but I think playing as few as 2 is defensible these days given Burn's resurgence.
I've done a lot of pondering about a company-less version that plays Evolution+Chord but that's another deck.
The black sideboard cards are much better than the white ones for the most part, so I see no issue trying that at least.
Gonna have to disagree with this statement right here. Path to Exile, Selfless Spirit, Kataki, BFT, Linvala, Reveillark, Stony Silence, and Qasali Pridemage are staple cards that have been in the Sideboard and Maybeboard since this deck was created.
Comparing that to black you've got Abrupt Decay and Pharika.
White is and has always been far more pervasive in our sideboards. Claiming that the black cards are better is simply not true. White cards are AT LEAST as good AND more plentiful.
1) the white sideboard cards are for the most part less mana demanding than black (Since the black cards have two pips, requiring a separate green and black source or white and black source or repeated black mana like Pharika)
2) Of those white cards, almost none of them require more than a token white splash (11 sources)
3) You missed Thoughtseize, which if you had 14-15 black sources would be playable again; the 3-4 thoughtseize plan was one of the best sideboard plans we ever had (though it has been some time since it was popular).
I think for the most part the black cards we could play would be more impactful than a double white splash, and it's worth considering at least.
Additional thoughts--
And yes in this same page I was arguing against black sideboard cards in a super light splash; I think this is hugely different between a full on black splash with chupacabra and potentially thoughtseize + sculler + pharika.
And I don't mean to sound so sure of myself, but I think it is worth trying.
I've been an Internet hermit for the last 5 weeks, just moved house and no connection (argh!)
Have we had any decent tournament finishes with coco recently?
I'm hearing murmurs through my playgroup anecdotally that this deck isn't so playable anymore ("druid combo is dead" was one comment) and we're maybe falling into a hostile metagame for us.
Would love to hear some opinions on this. Like I said I'm out of the loop. Just been jamming cards in my little playgroup.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Actually, the only Druid vizier decks placing in anything I’ve seen have been bant lists with JVP, queller, Geist, negate/will/dispel and meddling mage from the blue splash. I’ve been testing that, with reflector mage too and it has good and bad matchups like any of our company decks. I do think Company isn’t a good meta call but I just keep playing it lol! Also play some GW, bant knightfall company still without the combo and that sometimes works out better...the combo still scares ppl though.
I have been either winning easily and fast through the combo, in a longer and more grindy game through Finks life-gain, or losing bad through not hitting or having the combo disrupted.
I have been trying to figure out a way to make the combo more consistent and/or less fragile. Proper game-play and sequencing has helped but when they kill Druid it really hurts.
I don't know if I'd say that Druid combo is dead, but I will admit that I'm switching off the deck.
I've been grinding modo with a KoTR version (I came to the same conclusion as a few others regarding finks), and honestly haven't been able to put up results. I think my record was something like 51-66 in leagues and challenges. I switched to GW valuetown yesterday and I'm currently 11-4 in league matches, for some irrelevant context.
From what I've seen, there are precious few free wins out there for us right now, and lots of extremely difficult matchups. I wasn't ever untapping with my druids, and that's all this deck really wants to be doing.
I'll definitely keep my eyes open for someone to rejuvenate the archetype, but for now I think I want to be playing a creature deck that can survive "snapcaster, target fatal push?"
I've been an Internet hermit for the last 5 weeks, just moved house and no connection (argh!)
Have we had any decent tournament finishes with coco recently?
I'm hearing murmurs through my playgroup anecdotally that this deck isn't so playable anymore ("druid combo is dead" was one comment) and we're maybe falling into a hostile metagame for us.
Would love to hear some opinions on this. Like I said I'm out of the loop. Just been jamming cards in my little playgroup.
I've been seeing a lot of the same lately, which sucks because I literally finished the deck ~2 weeks ago.
I've been on Finks for a decently long time now and they still feel great and win me many matches
Don't feel like we're horribly positioned either... we have a t3 kill for races, redundancy to survive interactive decks, and can grind fairly well. Sideboard isn't exactly the worst either. Seem to be in the minority with that view of things tho :/
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"I can call an army to my side in the blink of an eye. Best not blink."
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
I mean yeah on paper we have the tools, but you can say that about any deck.
In practice, things haven't been working out so well in a competitive setting. Our plan A is easily disrupted, our plan B is weak, we're not disruptive, and we're easy to hate out of the board.
I'm curious to see how the pro tour goes. Crossing my fingers that someone figures out how to win with druid.
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I ran that one night with only 1 witness and the synergy is quite powerful between KOTR and Rallier. I'd look at 1 Rhonas (or entity)/1 witness/4 kotr/4 rallier as the 3-drop package for such a deck as the starting point.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I knew what most of the 21 players were on. There were 2 Tron, 1 E Tron, 1 Grishoalbrand, 1 Storm, 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Jeskai, and probably some other stuff that I expected to not win. Modern is a really polarized format in my opinion where it's really tough to utilize play skill to make up for a poor matchup and poor draws. Not to mention, the last time I played Abzan Company against Burn, it was slightly less than 50% and there were also 2 Burn players.
What do you think are our good matchups? (this question is for everyone)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I think that the defining question of this deck is "Is Kitchen Finks a good magic card right now?" and the answer to that has been "No" for the last 2 years give or take. The druid combo is much stronger in Elves than it is in a separate combo deck shell, and that's pretty much the bottom line to me sadly.
And that's why my collected companies are in the binder atm, sadly. But I still like to think about the deck.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Can't agree with the above statement more, I'm actually test Naya Druid now. I'm still in the early stages of testing but Tron and GDS feel better Due to Rhonas Being less mana intense to use since Knight & trackers turn him on/toolbox lands.
This is my starting Point
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Noble Hierarch
4x Vizier of Remedies
4x Devoted Druid
2x Duskwatch Recruiter
3x Eternal Witness
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells:11
1x Path to Exile
2x Nahiri, the Harbinger
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Stomping Ground
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Arid Mesa
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Harsh Mentor
3x Lightning Helix
2x Magus of the Moon
2x Path to Exile
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Stony Silence
Abzan Company is still tier 1, and if you think Finks isn't good because some T1 matchups like Storm, Tron, and Eldrazi don't care about Finks, then you're forgetting the rest of the meta that does hurt from Finks like Burn, D&T, Control decks ect.
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
Control decks these days are not really that concerned with kitchen finks. It's an OK card, but it's much worse than Renegade Rallier which gains tempo instead of a 2/1 body. If you just cut finks for rallier you'd be much stronger vs. Control shells (as you get an actual desirable card vs. one that dies to half of Electrolyze).
Kitchen finks is in a place where it is terrible against most of the meta:
Storm
Tron
Eldrazi
Valakut
Affinity
And mediocre against the rest, and good against burn. It's pretty solid against GDS, though less so than you think because their creatures outclass it. Great with township but average otherwise.
The last time I played it I sided out 3 finks in 3 out of 4 matches. I'm pretty confident that without a Jund style deck that really feels threatened by finks playing main deck finks is the wrong place to be right now.
Abzan company being tier 1 is an artifact of the system they're using these days. It isn't putting up any results that I can see. There wasn't even one in the top 32 of the last modern GP was there?
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
This deck's played double black before both maindeck and in the board and it wasnt that long ago that the deck played Archangel of Thune. Not to mention linvala is a common enough sideboard card. Just cause a card cant be hit by company doesnt mean it's instantly disqualified.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Redcap was actually deceptively powerful.
You'd have to shave some canopies probably but I think playing as few as 2 is defensible these days given Burn's resurgence.
I've done a lot of pondering about a company-less version that plays Evolution+Chord but that's another deck.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Gonna have to disagree with this statement right here. Path to Exile, Selfless Spirit, Kataki, BFT, Linvala, Reveillark, Stony Silence, and Qasali Pridemage are staple cards that have been in the Sideboard and Maybeboard since this deck was created.
Comparing that to black you've got Abrupt Decay and Pharika.
White is and has always been far more pervasive in our sideboards. Claiming that the black cards are better is simply not true. White cards are AT LEAST as good AND more plentiful.
1) the white sideboard cards are for the most part less mana demanding than black (Since the black cards have two pips, requiring a separate green and black source or white and black source or repeated black mana like Pharika)
2) Of those white cards, almost none of them require more than a token white splash (11 sources)
3) You missed Thoughtseize, which if you had 14-15 black sources would be playable again; the 3-4 thoughtseize plan was one of the best sideboard plans we ever had (though it has been some time since it was popular).
I think for the most part the black cards we could play would be more impactful than a double white splash, and it's worth considering at least.
Additional thoughts--
And yes in this same page I was arguing against black sideboard cards in a super light splash; I think this is hugely different between a full on black splash with chupacabra and potentially thoughtseize + sculler + pharika.
And I don't mean to sound so sure of myself, but I think it is worth trying.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Have we had any decent tournament finishes with coco recently?
I'm hearing murmurs through my playgroup anecdotally that this deck isn't so playable anymore ("druid combo is dead" was one comment) and we're maybe falling into a hostile metagame for us.
Would love to hear some opinions on this. Like I said I'm out of the loop. Just been jamming cards in my little playgroup.
I have been trying to figure out a way to make the combo more consistent and/or less fragile. Proper game-play and sequencing has helped but when they kill Druid it really hurts.
I've been grinding modo with a KoTR version (I came to the same conclusion as a few others regarding finks), and honestly haven't been able to put up results. I think my record was something like 51-66 in leagues and challenges. I switched to GW valuetown yesterday and I'm currently 11-4 in league matches, for some irrelevant context.
From what I've seen, there are precious few free wins out there for us right now, and lots of extremely difficult matchups. I wasn't ever untapping with my druids, and that's all this deck really wants to be doing.
I'll definitely keep my eyes open for someone to rejuvenate the archetype, but for now I think I want to be playing a creature deck that can survive "snapcaster, target fatal push?"
I've been seeing a lot of the same lately, which sucks because I literally finished the deck ~2 weeks ago.
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
Don't feel like we're horribly positioned either... we have a t3 kill for races, redundancy to survive interactive decks, and can grind fairly well. Sideboard isn't exactly the worst either. Seem to be in the minority with that view of things tho :/
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
In practice, things haven't been working out so well in a competitive setting. Our plan A is easily disrupted, our plan B is weak, we're not disruptive, and we're easy to hate out of the board.
I'm curious to see how the pro tour goes. Crossing my fingers that someone figures out how to win with druid.