it's up to the deckbuilder on how much to focus on Plan A and how much to focus on Plan B, typically based around the meta played in
I disagree with this. Nobody ever told twin players to go up to 10 untap creatures and a couple kikis "if there was a lot of tron". That would be terrible advice: kiki is much worse than twin, and having a pile of weak creatures just makes for a bad deck.
Eldritch evolution is kiki to druid's twin - its not a good card, even if it happens to be a combo piece.
As was just brought up, aside from a couple flex slots, there is actually a correct way to build this deck. I don't claim to know what it is, but I'm pretty confident that collected company and chord, the cards that single-handedly revitalized creature combo in modern, are the centerpieces of that optimized list.
Anyone have a list handy with MWPs (actual data) vs. Tier 1/2 Modern decks? (Affinity, Storm, Jeskai Geist, Etron, G Shadow, Humans, Burn, Tron, Titan Shift)
Trying to settle on something for SCG Columbus in January and having a hell of time fishing through all the random Company lists.
I second this. This deck is both great and frustrating since there is room to put ones stamp on it but also nobody knows what the optimal list is....
I just want a list with data next to it, I can tweak from there. I just don't have time to put in hundreds of matches between now and then.
it's up to the deckbuilder on how much to focus on Plan A and how much to focus on Plan B, typically based around the meta played in
I disagree with this. Nobody ever told twin players to go up to 10 untap creatures and a couple kikis "if there was a lot of tron". That would be terrible advice: kiki is much worse than twin, and having a pile of weak creatures just makes for a bad deck.
Eldritch evolution is kiki to druid's twin - its not a good card, even if it happens to be a combo piece.
As was just brought up, aside from a couple flex slots, there is actually a correct way to build this deck. I don't claim to know what it is, but I'm pretty confident that collected company and chord, the cards that single-handedly revitalized creature combo in modern, are the centerpieces of that optimized list.
I'm by no means an expert, but with the variety of lists I see, I think Company decks have a lot of room for tweaking.
Anyone have a list handy with MWPs (actual data) vs. Tier 1/2 Modern decks? (Affinity, Storm, Jeskai Geist, Etron, G Shadow, Humans, Burn, Tron, Titan Shift)
Trying to settle on something for SCG Columbus in January and having a hell of time fishing through all the random Company lists.
I second this. This deck is both great and frustrating since there is room to put ones stamp on it but also nobody knows what the optimal list is....
I just want a list with data next to it, I can tweak from there. I just don't have time to put in hundreds of matches between now and then.
Data for this deck is going to be really tough to come by, no one in this thread seems to either be able to or have the time to compile a data set like what you're probably looking for. Not to mention no one can even agree on a build.
If you're going to tweak the list anyway, why get the data? It's only good for that 75 anyway. Why do you need the full 75 card list? You said yourself that you're going to tweak it anyway. Take the core of the deck and put some meat on it, be bold!
I put a Phyrexian Obliterator in my list because I know it'll scare the crap out of people. No one else is going to even test that.
Here is my current list. I tried switching to the Tidehollow sculler version yesterday, and it was extremely good.
Here are some highlights (small sample size, 4 rounds)
It was "2 mana win the game" in at least one game of every match.
Titan shift: It took the summoners pact, preventing him from getting a titan.
Burn: Allstar, one game it had a helix under it and I was at 3 life.
Storm: Snagged a Baral on the play, won me the game.
Last matchup was some zombie brew, so it didn't really matter.
I cut some of the flex/toolbox slots to make room. I am wondering wether to go for the full 4 in the main.
There's so much storm, burn, titan decks and other unfair stuff lately, that imo it's really well positioned.
Scullers also make the sin collectors and Distended mindbenders in the side even better. Game 2/3 when they have a lot of hate for the combo, we attack from a totally different angle.
Anyone have a list handy with MWPs (actual data) vs. Tier 1/2 Modern decks? (Affinity, Storm, Jeskai Geist, Etron, G Shadow, Humans, Burn, Tron, Titan Shift)
Trying to settle on something for SCG Columbus in January and having a hell of time fishing through all the random Company lists.
I second this. This deck is both great and frustrating since there is room to put ones stamp on it but also nobody knows what the optimal list is....
I just want a list with data next to it, I can tweak from there. I just don't have time to put in hundreds of matches between now and then.
Data for this deck is going to be really tough to come by, no one in this thread seems to either be able to or have the time to compile a data set like what you're probably looking for. Not to mention no one can even agree on a build.
If you're going to tweak the list anyway, why get the data? It's only good for that 75 anyway. Why do you need the full 75 card list? You said yourself that you're going to tweak it anyway. Take the core of the deck and put some meat on it, be bold!
I put a Phyrexian Obliterator in my list because I know it'll scare the crap out of people. No one else is going to even test that.
You're capable of making informed decisions with data. If a 75 has a sub par MWP vs deck A and an outstanding MWP vs deck B finding a middle ground to improve vs deck A is beneficial. Even if the data just came in the form of a 60 card main deck you're still better off making data driven decisions with your sideboard. I have no problem being bold, I've cashed GPs playing Company lists playing nobody else in the room was on. Data helps.. someone's spicy one of they took to FNM, while nice to know.. doesn't exactly help when trying to really refine something.
Did some more testing (xmage) with 3 Sculler main and double Mindbender SB. Went 4-2, won vs BG, Burn, Bogles, BUG Shadow and lost to Tron and Abzan Midrange. Sculler felt pretty so-so, being alright at some times and a bear with crappy colour cost at others. Was very curious about it vs Tron, where it did nothing all games due to them having too much redundancy :/ Mindbender was drawn only once and was uncastable then.
Also did some more irl testing vs UWR Control and Infect, Sculler was mediocre vs both. So far the card feels very inconsistent in it's value to me. I had games where a timely Sculler just wins, but there's a lot that has to go right for that (no redundant parts for the opponent, no removal, no topdecks, we need a fast follow-up kill). Might do some more testing when I find time to do it IRL, but atm I'm pretty meh about the card.
Gonna try some Tireless Trackers main next. On paper they help the backup plan as well as the combo plan by adding a few more draws to the deck. Goldfishing with it felt pretty good so far, curious to see how it'll play in proper games. Also dropped the Anafenza and the second Seer for testing purposes. Missed the Seer sometimes, Anafenza only once. Also went up to 8 dorks and 21 lands for consistency.
You're capable of making informed decisions with data. If a 75 has a sub par MWP vs deck A and an outstanding MWP vs deck B finding a middle ground to improve vs deck A is beneficial. Even if the data just came in the form of a 60 card main deck you're still better off making data driven decisions with your sideboard. I have no problem being bold, I've cashed GPs playing Company lists playing nobody else in the room was on. Data helps.. someone's spicy one of they took to FNM, while nice to know.. doesn't exactly help when trying to really refine something.
Well, I'm sorry, but I don't know what to tell you then. There are tons of lists out there but even the ones that win tournaments don't come with a win rate vs each deck. If I find one that I think is more than just a ball-parking of "I feel good in this match up, so 70-30", then I'll send it your way, but as of right now the best data we have is "None of the Company lists are good."
I just think asking for data is a bit much because it's generally paraded around when we have it, and asking for lists is... Well, which would you like?
You're capable of making informed decisions with data. If a 75 has a sub par MWP vs deck A and an outstanding MWP vs deck B finding a middle ground to improve vs deck A is beneficial. Even if the data just came in the form of a 60 card main deck you're still better off making data driven decisions with your sideboard. I have no problem being bold, I've cashed GPs playing Company lists playing nobody else in the room was on. Data helps.. someone's spicy one of they took to FNM, while nice to know.. doesn't exactly help when trying to really refine something.
Well, I'm sorry, but I don't know what to tell you then. There are tons of lists out there but even the ones that win tournaments don't come with a win rate vs each deck. If I find one that I think is more than just a ball-parking of "I feel good in this match up, so 70-30", then I'll send it your way, but as of right now the best data we have is "None of the Company lists are good."
I just think asking for data is a bit much because it's generally paraded around when we have it, and asking for lists is... Well, which would you like?
I simply asked if anyone had data. If you don’t, that’s fine. Just a heads up though, playing a MU and “feeling good” doesn’t make it a 70-30 MU.
Hi guys just started playing the deck Just a Few questions:
• Pros and Cons to Abzan vs Bant: What should we be playing after seeing how the Meta is moving to?
• In Abzan why isn’t there a 1 of Anafenza// Redcap to kill with Seer
• What’s our Plan against Tron Mana & Azcanta Control decks
• Are we Favored vs Storm//Valakut
1. From what I see - Abzan has more life and a second combo, Bant has main interaction in Spell Queller. Also SB choices differ heavily.
2. Redcap can't get Coco'd; Anafenza can be annoying to cast. Mostly tho I think it's because people consider her to not be that necessary. Infinite life/scry often wins enough.
3. Tron: fast combo; Control: discard and grindy beatdowns.
4. No, both should be about even. Very play/draw dependent as well.
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"I can call an army to my side in the blink of an eye. Best not blink."
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Really cool to see another KotR list doing well. I like a lot of what his list is doing, but to be honest some of the numbers confuse me.
Is it reasonable to play only a single witness? Between 1 witness, 2 recruiter, 1 rhonas,and 3 chord it seems like its pretty hard for Steve to use his infinite mana unless he has a knight ready. He also doesn't have a ton of monogreen creatures, so its not like he can drop a ton of power on turn 3 either.
I'd love for 1-2 witness to be enough - opening up space for less clunky cards would be fantastic. I've been trying to fit a fourth courser in for a while. Maybe Knight finding kessig was enough for him to trim other sinks?
I'm testing out the new deckbuilder feature on the site. It doesn't sort the cards how I like it, but that'll be updated hopefully. It allows me to publicly store my decks so people can see the revisions at any time which is cool, and on top of that it pastes into the forums super easily! Here's the deck.
I'm not trying the KotR plan right now as my 4th copy went missing at FNM some time back. I'm back on the 'stock' list now but still with 20 lands and 8 dorks. Next time I play I'll try out -2 Renegade Rallier, -1 Scavenging Ooze, +3 Tidehollow Sculler maindeck. Seems good right now with Tron on the rise.
I'm testing out the new deckbuilder feature on the site. It doesn't sort the cards how I like it, but that'll be updated hopefully. It allows me to publicly store my decks so people can see the revisions at any time which is cool, and on top of that it pastes into the forums super easily! Here's the deck.
I'm not trying the KotR plan right now as my 4th copy went missing at FNM some time back. I'm back on the 'stock' list now but still with 20 lands and 8 dorks. Next time I play I'll try out -2 Renegade Rallier, -1 Scavenging Ooze, +3 Tidehollow Sculler maindeck. Seems good right now with Tron on the rise.
I am running 3 Tidehollow Sculler still. 22 lands and a 4/2 split of Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch. The Scullers helped my go 1-2 vs my brother's Eldrazi Tron yesterday in some casual playtesting. An early Tidehollow Sculler delayed him and let me combo quickly in game 1 but he got the nut draw in games 2 and 3 where I was on defense the whole time.
I'm on the 4/2 split with 3x Scullers as well. Haven't gotten much practice in against tron yet though. I am worried about it, burn, and storm seeing as they are all really popular decks in my area.
My sideboard is currently looking like this:
3x Sin Collector
2x Burrenton Forge Tender
2x Eidolon of Rhetoric
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Kataki
1x Orzhov Pontiff
1x Fiend Hunter
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Kitchen Finks (3 in the main)
It's not ideal, but it's what I have so far. I realize reading over it that there isn't much I can bring in against tron.
What sideboard cards are you guys using for tron? Aven Mindcensor? Path to Exile/Thoughtseize?
My first impression of this deck is that someone put a ton of time into tuning it. Weird harvest is a card I tested in Druid a long time ago - super off the radar. Deadshot as a way to cycle a pact is un-intuitive and probably had to up during games. Qasali Ambusher is also pretty much unknown - I've only ever played it in glittering wish decks.
So whoever you got this from Atanar (or if you made it) props for some seriously thorough deckbuilding. The more I look at this the more cool stuff I notice.
That being said, I have no idea if this is good. Without ever playing it I'm reminded most of grishoalbrand - super fast wins and an extremely focused maindeck, with no consideration to a backup plan. You're trading graveyard reliance for a weakness to removal (which doesn't seem great), but you also appear to have a fair bit more redundancy.
To be honest with you, I don't think I can help much with advice, because this deck's playstyle is so far removed from the Druid list I play that we're basically talking about two separate decks. So... no idea if its good. I hope it is though! The effort put into it is awesome.
Personally I don't think it's very good, it can't pull off consistency.
You have 12 possible cards in your opener that you don't even know what they are going to be, which is a real deckbuilding cost, especially for a combo deck. Makes mulligans a nightmare and probably costs you a lot of games.
Trying to reach delirium for traverse seems linke a nonbo for trying to combo off early. And trying to hit the singleton Ballista off an Ancient stirring is statistically unlikely, so the deck plays a lot less infinite mana payoff than the traditional counters deck does. It often get's stuck doing nothing.
Bandit hall as tapland really hurts a deck that wants to cast oaths and baubles t1 and druids t2.
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I disagree with this. Nobody ever told twin players to go up to 10 untap creatures and a couple kikis "if there was a lot of tron". That would be terrible advice: kiki is much worse than twin, and having a pile of weak creatures just makes for a bad deck.
Eldritch evolution is kiki to druid's twin - its not a good card, even if it happens to be a combo piece.
As was just brought up, aside from a couple flex slots, there is actually a correct way to build this deck. I don't claim to know what it is, but I'm pretty confident that collected company and chord, the cards that single-handedly revitalized creature combo in modern, are the centerpieces of that optimized list.
I just want a list with data next to it, I can tweak from there. I just don't have time to put in hundreds of matches between now and then.
I'm by no means an expert, but with the variety of lists I see, I think Company decks have a lot of room for tweaking.
I came across a very interesting list (not Company per se, but still similar as a combo-toolbox deck). Check it out here -
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/36296_Video-Daily-Digest-Jeff-Hooglands-Eldrazi-Evolution.html
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
Data for this deck is going to be really tough to come by, no one in this thread seems to either be able to or have the time to compile a data set like what you're probably looking for. Not to mention no one can even agree on a build.
If you're going to tweak the list anyway, why get the data? It's only good for that 75 anyway. Why do you need the full 75 card list? You said yourself that you're going to tweak it anyway. Take the core of the deck and put some meat on it, be bold!
I put a Phyrexian Obliterator in my list because I know it'll scare the crap out of people. No one else is going to even test that.
"Reveal a Dragon"
Here is my current list. I tried switching to the Tidehollow sculler version yesterday, and it was extremely good.
Here are some highlights (small sample size, 4 rounds)
It was "2 mana win the game" in at least one game of every match.
Titan shift: It took the summoners pact, preventing him from getting a titan.
Burn: Allstar, one game it had a helix under it and I was at 3 life.
Storm: Snagged a Baral on the play, won me the game.
Last matchup was some zombie brew, so it didn't really matter.
I cut some of the flex/toolbox slots to make room. I am wondering wether to go for the full 4 in the main.
There's so much storm, burn, titan decks and other unfair stuff lately, that imo it's really well positioned.
Scullers also make the sin collectors and Distended mindbenders in the side even better. Game 2/3 when they have a lot of hate for the combo, we attack from a totally different angle.
You're capable of making informed decisions with data. If a 75 has a sub par MWP vs deck A and an outstanding MWP vs deck B finding a middle ground to improve vs deck A is beneficial. Even if the data just came in the form of a 60 card main deck you're still better off making data driven decisions with your sideboard. I have no problem being bold, I've cashed GPs playing Company lists playing nobody else in the room was on. Data helps.. someone's spicy one of they took to FNM, while nice to know.. doesn't exactly help when trying to really refine something.
Also did some more irl testing vs UWR Control and Infect, Sculler was mediocre vs both. So far the card feels very inconsistent in it's value to me. I had games where a timely Sculler just wins, but there's a lot that has to go right for that (no redundant parts for the opponent, no removal, no topdecks, we need a fast follow-up kill). Might do some more testing when I find time to do it IRL, but atm I'm pretty meh about the card.
Gonna try some Tireless Trackers main next. On paper they help the backup plan as well as the combo plan by adding a few more draws to the deck. Goldfishing with it felt pretty good so far, curious to see how it'll play in proper games. Also dropped the Anafenza and the second Seer for testing purposes. Missed the Seer sometimes, Anafenza only once. Also went up to 8 dorks and 21 lands for consistency.
Tracker List
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Viscera Seer
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
1 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Eternal Witness
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
Spells (8)
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
Lands (21)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Forest
2 Gavony Township
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
2 Sin Collector
1 Orzhov Pontiff
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
I just think asking for data is a bit much because it's generally paraded around when we have it, and asking for lists is... Well, which would you like?
"Reveal a Dragon"
I simply asked if anyone had data. If you don’t, that’s fine. Just a heads up though, playing a MU and “feeling good” doesn’t make it a 70-30 MU.
• Pros and Cons to Abzan vs Bant: What should we be playing after seeing how the Meta is moving to?
• In Abzan why isn’t there a 1 of Anafenza// Redcap to kill with Seer
• What’s our Plan against Tron Mana & Azcanta Control decks
• Are we Favored vs Storm//Valakut
Please//Thank you
1. From what I see - Abzan has more life and a second combo, Bant has main interaction in Spell Queller. Also SB choices differ heavily.
2. Redcap can't get Coco'd; Anafenza can be annoying to cast. Mostly tho I think it's because people consider her to not be that necessary. Infinite life/scry often wins enough.
3. Tron: fast combo; Control: discard and grindy beatdowns.
4. No, both should be about even. Very play/draw dependent as well.
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
Is it reasonable to play only a single witness? Between 1 witness, 2 recruiter, 1 rhonas,and 3 chord it seems like its pretty hard for Steve to use his infinite mana unless he has a knight ready. He also doesn't have a ton of monogreen creatures, so its not like he can drop a ton of power on turn 3 either.
I'd love for 1-2 witness to be enough - opening up space for less clunky cards would be fantastic. I've been trying to fit a fourth courser in for a while. Maybe Knight finding kessig was enough for him to trim other sinks?
4 Devoted Druid
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Viscera Seer
4 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Vizier of Remedies
4 Kitchen Finks
Land
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Gavony Township
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Spellskite
1 Walking Ballista
Instant
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
I'm not trying the KotR plan right now as my 4th copy went missing at FNM some time back. I'm back on the 'stock' list now but still with 20 lands and 8 dorks. Next time I play I'll try out -2 Renegade Rallier, -1 Scavenging Ooze, +3 Tidehollow Sculler maindeck. Seems good right now with Tron on the rise.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I am running 3 Tidehollow Sculler still. 22 lands and a 4/2 split of Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch. The Scullers helped my go 1-2 vs my brother's Eldrazi Tron yesterday in some casual playtesting. An early Tidehollow Sculler delayed him and let me combo quickly in game 1 but he got the nut draw in games 2 and 3 where I was on defense the whole time.
My sideboard is currently looking like this:
3x Sin Collector
2x Burrenton Forge Tender
2x Eidolon of Rhetoric
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Kataki
1x Orzhov Pontiff
1x Fiend Hunter
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Kitchen Finks (3 in the main)
It's not ideal, but it's what I have so far. I realize reading over it that there isn't much I can bring in against tron.
What sideboard cards are you guys using for tron? Aven Mindcensor? Path to Exile/Thoughtseize?
"Reveal a Dragon"
1 Forest
4 Hall of the Bandit Lord
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Murmuring Bosk
2 Temple Garden
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
CREATURES
1 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Devoted Druid
1 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Street Wraith
4 Vizier of Remedies
1 Walking Ballista
1 Wild Cantor
4 Ancient Stirrings
1 Manamorphose
4 Pact of Negation
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Weird Harvest
OTHER SPELLS
2 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Oath of Nissa
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Defense Grid
1 Devout Lightcaster
4 Mirran Crusader
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Path to Exile
1 Qasali Ambusher
2 Reclamation Sage
Seems like gambling.
So whoever you got this from Atanar (or if you made it) props for some seriously thorough deckbuilding. The more I look at this the more cool stuff I notice.
That being said, I have no idea if this is good. Without ever playing it I'm reminded most of grishoalbrand - super fast wins and an extremely focused maindeck, with no consideration to a backup plan. You're trading graveyard reliance for a weakness to removal (which doesn't seem great), but you also appear to have a fair bit more redundancy.
To be honest with you, I don't think I can help much with advice, because this deck's playstyle is so far removed from the Druid list I play that we're basically talking about two separate decks. So... no idea if its good. I hope it is though! The effort put into it is awesome.
Personally I don't think it's very good, it can't pull off consistency.
You have 12 possible cards in your opener that you don't even know what they are going to be, which is a real deckbuilding cost, especially for a combo deck. Makes mulligans a nightmare and probably costs you a lot of games.
Trying to reach delirium for traverse seems linke a nonbo for trying to combo off early. And trying to hit the singleton Ballista off an Ancient stirring is statistically unlikely, so the deck plays a lot less infinite mana payoff than the traditional counters deck does. It often get's stuck doing nothing.
Bandit hall as tapland really hurts a deck that wants to cast oaths and baubles t1 and druids t2.