I'm wondering if you guys can help me with my sideboard. I have what I'd consider the "level 1", which is basically just a pile of good sideboard cards from other company decks I've played, with mild direction towards what I would guess are my bad match ups.
What does your board look like? Which cards have been all-stars for you, and which haven't been worth it? Do you have plans for particular match ups, or a good idea of where we need help?
(Additionally, if you play MTGO and want to test let me know. I'm online pretty often)
I'm wondering if you guys can help me with my sideboard. I have what I'd consider the "level 1", which is basically just a pile of good sideboard cards from other company decks I've played, with mild direction towards what I would guess are my bad match ups.
What does your board look like? Which cards have been all-stars for you, and which haven't been worth it? Do you have plans for particular match ups, or a good idea of where we need help?
(Additionally, if you play MTGO and want to test let me know. I'm online pretty often)
I see a lot of Tron, Burn and Death's Shadow. Other decks a see a fair amount of are Affinity, Death & Taxes, Living End and Merfolk. Even an Infect a couple of times lately.
My sideboard is built for my local meta. The range of decks I face varies massively, but I expect to face; E-Tron, Grixis Delver, Storm, DS Jund, Burn, Elves, Counters Company, Mono-Goblins, Merfolk, Bant Spirits, Affinity and some homebrews.
I noticed Evolutionary Leap has fallen out of sideboards since I was last here. Is there a driving reason for that? It's sort of been an all star in my control match ups.
Leap? Well personally I tested the hell out of that card in early lists, after I realized that with enough mono-green creatures Leap worked as an infinite mana sink (keep playing and sacrificing guys until you dig to your recruiter).
I don't think its good enough. Is it possible that getting to the point where Leap was good against control (lots of mana and creatures, enough pressure to back up the card advantage) meant many other spells would have also won you the game?
I respect that you've had good results, but in my experience paying 2 (leap) + 1(activate) + ~2(average creature cmc) was too much to "counter a bolt" as an upfront cost, and I'd be so far behind on tempo that I'd lose to a colonnade or get rev'd for x=9.
I think if you're looking for noncreature cards that consistently give GDS/UW a hard time I would try plainswalkers first. Gideon, AoZ comes to mind as one people have had success with. He's flexible, providing a steady stream of creatures, making a ton of haste power out of nowhere with his emblem, and swinging for 5 when your opponent puts the shields down.
It depends on your build really. I’ve been playing this deck for some time (only paper) and don’t have catacombs. I haven’t had an issue at all with fetching lands. I run 4 windswept Heath and 3 marsh flats.... works fine for me as I don’t want to buy catacombs either.
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Hey guys, could the deck run well with 4x Misty rainforest instead of the catacombs? I wanna play counters company but I don't want to get catacombs.
Yeah you can. For shocks I play 2 Temple Gardens and 2 Overgrown Tombs. As long as your #5-8 fetchlands are G/x you are fine. That said, work to getting Catacombs if you ever want to play a Godless Shrine.
How are you guys sideboarding against Tron? I've read that the matchup is atrocious.
You want to combo T3 before they can really play anything. Pridemage, Recsage, and Aven Mindcensor are all good (and the most common cards). Other things include Tidehollow Sculler & Abrupt Decay. What is your sideboard? I can help if I know it, and make better suggestions.
What do you mean by "tron"? There are two types right now, eldrazi and green, and they play out pretty differently in the first few turns.
Eldrazi tron generally plays 2-3 dismembers, 2 all is dust, and 4 walking ballista in the maindeck. Disrupting their manabase is less relevent because many of their hands don't care, but as a result they're a lot more likely to lose to semi-aggressive starts with cards like tireless tracker, finks, knight, and path.
Green tron play the full on map/sylvan scrying/ancient stirrings/chromatic package and can very consistently assemble tron on turn 4. They can pretty easily ignore any midrange or beatdown elements with oblivion stone and ugin, but as a result they're weak to land disruption.
The cards I can think of that are good against both archetypes are knight of the reliquary, artifact disruption (best being stony silence), and sculler/mindbender. I would not side in mindcensor against eldrazi tron, or path against green tron.
My board plan is bring in a tectonic edge, 3 path to exile, 2 qasali pridemages, and a spellskite in against eldrazi tron, and cut a ballista, 2 chord, 2 witness, and 2 courser (cutting chord is a hedge against cage, ballista doesn't kill anything). Against green tron I side in the edge, 2 mindcensor, a selfless spirit, and 2 pridemage, and cut 2 witness, 3 courser, and a ballista.
Again though, I'm playing a 2 color build with knight of the reliquary, so I'm happy to see either version. If you have stonys or hand disruption they should definitely come in.
Well, I have to say after checking out some of GP OKC today I'm a little disappointed with the results- no company decks in the top 32, and a lot of big mana decks that have some disruption in valakut, tron, breach, and living end then also lot of control in jeskai, lantern.
Is it time to consider trying to do both what counters company does in the potential turn 3 combo, and add some of the land destruction elements of GW company (ghost quarter, ramunap, knight) and potentially some blue for counterspells? do we become Naya for blood moon effects? (although, i know they can expect that card and have answers). Do we at least need to start actually running Stony Silence even though it sucks with ballista/maybe need rhonas also....
I'm going to mess with it a bit, but it just seems like we will NEED land destruction and/or counters, but also need the fast clock we have in the infinite combo to expect to win if the meta shifts heavily toward big mana.
Well, I have to say after checking out some of GP OKC today I'm a little disappointed with the results- no company decks in the top 32, and a lot of big mana decks that have some disruption in valakut, tron, breach, and living end then also lot of control in jeskai, lantern.
Is it time to consider trying to do both what counters company does in the potential turn 3 combo, and add some of the land destruction elements of GW company (ghost quarter, ramunap, knight) and potentially some blue for counterspells? do we become Naya for blood moon effects? (although, i know they can expect that card and have answers). Do we at least need to start actually running Stony Silence even though it sucks with ballista/maybe need rhonas also....
I'm going to mess with it a bit, but it just seems like we will NEED land destruction and/or counters, but also need the fast clock we have in the infinite combo to expect to win if the meta shifts heavily toward big mana.
Any thoughts from you guys on this?
I know I'm of a not very popular decision on this, but a big reason why I'm running 8 Dorks 4 Company 4 Evolution and 2 Chord is because assembling the combo as fast as possible is crucial to winning against Tron variants; guaranteeing the turn 2 Druid or turn 3 Vizier does that reliably.
Yeah Epic, maybe trying to go turbo is something to explore, I just think it makes our DS, BGx, jeskai etc matchups unwinnable if they disrupt us early.
Yeah Epic, maybe trying to go turbo is something to explore, I just think it makes our DS, BGx, jeskai etc matchups unwinnable if they disrupt us early.
A fairly recent article or pair thereof on Modern Nexus has me thinking more about focusing on the proactive elements of our primarily proactive deck.
Since the end goal is to win via damage, I am of the opinion that against a primarily proactive meta (and I will group Tron in this category as well since it aims to assemble UrzaTron early) we should build this list to be as consistently fast as possible.
And while it's true that Evolution is bad against reactive decks like tempo, midrange, and especially control, we already combat spot removal and countermagic via Company's potential payoff and instant timing game 1. It's less consistent than Chord or Evolution for sure, but only requiring 3G to cast as opposed to 2GGG Convoke or 1GG Sacrifice is a lot more manageable.
Having said that, if playing in a known meta, build your list for that meta; we have the technology
On a separate note: if I'm not mistaken, we're the only deck in Tier 1 and Tier 2 that can threaten infinite life (if Abzan), evasive power, and noncombat damage. Out of the decks in Tier 1 and Tier 2, only G/x Tron and our own Counters Company can mitigate the advantage of infinite life. As such I'm contemplating the 2nd Seer in my single creature flex slot.
I know I'm of a not very popular decision on this, but a big reason why I'm running 8 Dorks 4 Company 4 Evolution and 2 Chord is because assembling the combo as fast as possible is crucial to winning against Tron variants; guaranteeing the turn 2 Druid or turn 3 Vizier does that reliably
I've seen a lot of push for turbo-druid builds recently, and I wanted to offer a counter-point. Do you guys remember when splinter twin played dispel and spellskite? Or when Death's Shadow played become immense and swiftspear? These decks were good doing something linear and fast, but the best version ended up being the one that was flexible and consistent.
UR Gifts Storm is a Tier 1 deck right now. In my opinion, that is currently the best version of "turbo druid": they get to play 7 to 8 copies of "druid", they all have haste, and everything in their deck that isn't involved in the combo is a cantrip. How can we realistically compete with that?
The real strength of counters company is its midrange plan B, like Twin's tempo game or GDS's control impression. If you want to be linear and crush Tron, I think switching decks makes more sense than completely giving up on your fair matchups.
Anyone have a list handy with MWPs (actual data) vs. Tier 1/2 Modern decks? (Affinity, Storm, Jeskai Geist, Etron, G Shadow, Humans, Burn, Tron, Titan Shift)
Trying to settle on something for SCG Columbus in January and having a hell of time fishing through all the random Company lists.
I know I'm of a not very popular decision on this, but a big reason why I'm running 8 Dorks 4 Company 4 Evolution and 2 Chord is because assembling the combo as fast as possible is crucial to winning against Tron variants; guaranteeing the turn 2 Druid or turn 3 Vizier does that reliably
I've seen a lot of push for turbo-druid builds recently, and I wanted to offer a counter-point. Do you guys remember when splinter twin played dispel and spellskite? Or when Death's Shadow played become immense and swiftspear? These decks were good doing something linear and fast, but the best version ended up being the one that was flexible and consistent.
UR Gifts Storm is a Tier 1 deck right now. In my opinion, that is currently the best version of "turbo druid": they get to play 7 to 8 copies of "druid", they all have haste, and everything in their deck that isn't involved in the combo is a cantrip. How can we realistically compete with that?
The real strength of counters company is its midrange plan B, like Twin's tempo game or GDS's control impression. If you want to be linear and crush Tron, I think switching decks makes more sense than completely giving up on your fair matchups.
100000% agree
This deck is good because it can combo fast but also fight pretty well against fair decks (some matchup still unfavourable I think,like Jeskai that is pretty hard). Play 4 Company 3 Eldritch 3 Chord and more combo pieces just do the matchup vs control and midrange a lot worse, and there are so many combo decks that can win more than this deck going full combo.
Key phrase there is Plan B; while we aren't reliant on comboing out to win, it is still the primary means of winning. What made Twin what it used to be was Twin itself; otherwise it would have just been Jeskai Flash or something similar.
And while I agree that the sheer redundancy of Gifts Storm is something we can't compete with, we also can't compete directly with the removal and disruption of control and midrange; even if we jam 4 Path to Exile and 4 Fatal Push/Lightning Bolt/Abrupt Decay in the side, we would have to cut back on the creature count for Collected Company just for them.
What I'm trying to convey is that yes, this deck does have a flexible playstyle with a solid plan B, but it's up to the deckbuilder on how much to focus on Plan A and how much to focus on Plan B, typically based around the meta played in.
Turbo-Druid (as I'm suggesting with 8 Dorks and 4 Evolution) would shore up our worst matchups (Big Mana) at the expense of even to difficult matchups in Midrange, Tempo, and Control. As for Combo and Aggro ... I believe that is where more pertinent issues may arise with either Evolution Druid or Chord Druid, at least game 1.
Anyone have a list handy with MWPs (actual data) vs. Tier 1/2 Modern decks? (Affinity, Storm, Jeskai Geist, Etron, G Shadow, Humans, Burn, Tron, Titan Shift)
Trying to settle on something for SCG Columbus in January and having a hell of time fishing through all the random Company lists.
I second this. This deck is both great and frustrating since there is room to put ones stamp on it but also nobody knows what the optimal list is....
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What does your board look like? Which cards have been all-stars for you, and which haven't been worth it? Do you have plans for particular match ups, or a good idea of where we need help?
(Additionally, if you play MTGO and want to test let me know. I'm online pretty often)
My current sideboard:
2 Path to Exile
2 Sin Collector
2Abrupt Decay
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Kataki, War’s Wage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Stony Silence
I see a lot of Tron, Burn and Death's Shadow. Other decks a see a fair amount of are Affinity, Death & Taxes, Living End and Merfolk. Even an Infect a couple of times lately.
X1 sigarda, host of herons - useful against E-Tron, Delver and Jund
X1 linvala, keeper of silence - Useful against mirror, Elves, Affinity, E-Tron
X2 abrupt decay - Useful against most decks except E-Tron and storm
X2 path to exile - As above, except not very good against Bant Spirits
X1 kataki, war’s wage - Solely for Affinity hate
X1 qasali pridemage - Useful against Affinity and doubles up for removing blood moon etc
X1 kambal, consul of allocation - Useful against burn and storm
X1 thalia, heretic cathar - Useful against E-Tron, Goblins and Spirits
X2 sin collector - Useful against removal heavy decks
X1 orzhov pontiff - Useful against Affinity, elves and merfolk
X1 ethersworn canonist - easier to get than kambal versus storm
X1 anafenza, the foremost - additional graveyard hate and a good beater.
My current deck has both Druid and Finks combo and I’m not running any KotR. Using kitesail Freebooter, spellskite, renegade rallier and scavenging ooze as flex spots. Been happy with the results so far...
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Why so Bloo? RU
"Reveal a Dragon"
I don't think its good enough. Is it possible that getting to the point where Leap was good against control (lots of mana and creatures, enough pressure to back up the card advantage) meant many other spells would have also won you the game?
I respect that you've had good results, but in my experience paying 2 (leap) + 1(activate) + ~2(average creature cmc) was too much to "counter a bolt" as an upfront cost, and I'd be so far behind on tempo that I'd lose to a colonnade or get rev'd for x=9.
I think if you're looking for noncreature cards that consistently give GDS/UW a hard time I would try plainswalkers first. Gideon, AoZ comes to mind as one people have had success with. He's flexible, providing a steady stream of creatures, making a ton of haste power out of nowhere with his emblem, and swinging for 5 when your opponent puts the shields down.
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
How are you guys sideboarding against Tron? I've read that the matchup is atrocious.
You want to combo T3 before they can really play anything. Pridemage, Recsage, and Aven Mindcensor are all good (and the most common cards). Other things include Tidehollow Sculler & Abrupt Decay. What is your sideboard? I can help if I know it, and make better suggestions.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Eldrazi tron generally plays 2-3 dismembers, 2 all is dust, and 4 walking ballista in the maindeck. Disrupting their manabase is less relevent because many of their hands don't care, but as a result they're a lot more likely to lose to semi-aggressive starts with cards like tireless tracker, finks, knight, and path.
Green tron play the full on map/sylvan scrying/ancient stirrings/chromatic package and can very consistently assemble tron on turn 4. They can pretty easily ignore any midrange or beatdown elements with oblivion stone and ugin, but as a result they're weak to land disruption.
The cards I can think of that are good against both archetypes are knight of the reliquary, artifact disruption (best being stony silence), and sculler/mindbender. I would not side in mindcensor against eldrazi tron, or path against green tron.
My board plan is bring in a tectonic edge, 3 path to exile, 2 qasali pridemages, and a spellskite in against eldrazi tron, and cut a ballista, 2 chord, 2 witness, and 2 courser (cutting chord is a hedge against cage, ballista doesn't kill anything). Against green tron I side in the edge, 2 mindcensor, a selfless spirit, and 2 pridemage, and cut 2 witness, 3 courser, and a ballista.
Again though, I'm playing a 2 color build with knight of the reliquary, so I'm happy to see either version. If you have stonys or hand disruption they should definitely come in.
Is it time to consider trying to do both what counters company does in the potential turn 3 combo, and add some of the land destruction elements of GW company (ghost quarter, ramunap, knight) and potentially some blue for counterspells? do we become Naya for blood moon effects? (although, i know they can expect that card and have answers). Do we at least need to start actually running Stony Silence even though it sucks with ballista/maybe need rhonas also....
I'm going to mess with it a bit, but it just seems like we will NEED land destruction and/or counters, but also need the fast clock we have in the infinite combo to expect to win if the meta shifts heavily toward big mana.
Any thoughts from you guys on this?
I know I'm of a not very popular decision on this, but a big reason why I'm running 8 Dorks 4 Company 4 Evolution and 2 Chord is because assembling the combo as fast as possible is crucial to winning against Tron variants; guaranteeing the turn 2 Druid or turn 3 Vizier does that reliably.
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A fairly recent article or pair thereof on Modern Nexus has me thinking more about focusing on the proactive elements of our primarily proactive deck.
http://modernnexus.com/king-hill-using-flex-slots-open-meta/
http://modernnexus.com/another-thing-coming-building-sideboards-open-meta/
Since the end goal is to win via damage, I am of the opinion that against a primarily proactive meta (and I will group Tron in this category as well since it aims to assemble UrzaTron early) we should build this list to be as consistently fast as possible.
And while it's true that Evolution is bad against reactive decks like tempo, midrange, and especially control, we already combat spot removal and countermagic via Company's potential payoff and instant timing game 1. It's less consistent than Chord or Evolution for sure, but only requiring 3G to cast as opposed to 2GGG Convoke or 1GG Sacrifice is a lot more manageable.
Having said that, if playing in a known meta, build your list for that meta; we have the technology
On a separate note: if I'm not mistaken, we're the only deck in Tier 1 and Tier 2 that can threaten infinite life (if Abzan), evasive power, and noncombat damage. Out of the decks in Tier 1 and Tier 2, only G/x Tron and our own Counters Company can mitigate the advantage of infinite life. As such I'm contemplating the 2nd Seer in my single creature flex slot.
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
20 Lands, 4 Hierarchs
21 Lands, 3 Hierarchs
22 Lands, 1-2 Hierarchs
I am currently running games on Cockatrice, but want to know which you guys think is best.
I've seen a lot of push for turbo-druid builds recently, and I wanted to offer a counter-point. Do you guys remember when splinter twin played dispel and spellskite? Or when Death's Shadow played become immense and swiftspear? These decks were good doing something linear and fast, but the best version ended up being the one that was flexible and consistent.
UR Gifts Storm is a Tier 1 deck right now. In my opinion, that is currently the best version of "turbo druid": they get to play 7 to 8 copies of "druid", they all have haste, and everything in their deck that isn't involved in the combo is a cantrip. How can we realistically compete with that?
The real strength of counters company is its midrange plan B, like Twin's tempo game or GDS's control impression. If you want to be linear and crush Tron, I think switching decks makes more sense than completely giving up on your fair matchups.
Trying to settle on something for SCG Columbus in January and having a hell of time fishing through all the random Company lists.
Key phrase there is Plan B; while we aren't reliant on comboing out to win, it is still the primary means of winning. What made Twin what it used to be was Twin itself; otherwise it would have just been Jeskai Flash or something similar.
And while I agree that the sheer redundancy of Gifts Storm is something we can't compete with, we also can't compete directly with the removal and disruption of control and midrange; even if we jam 4 Path to Exile and 4 Fatal Push/Lightning Bolt/Abrupt Decay in the side, we would have to cut back on the creature count for Collected Company just for them.
What I'm trying to convey is that yes, this deck does have a flexible playstyle with a solid plan B, but it's up to the deckbuilder on how much to focus on Plan A and how much to focus on Plan B, typically based around the meta played in.
Turbo-Druid (as I'm suggesting with 8 Dorks and 4 Evolution) would shore up our worst matchups (Big Mana) at the expense of even to difficult matchups in Midrange, Tempo, and Control. As for Combo and Aggro ... I believe that is where more pertinent issues may arise with either Evolution Druid or Chord Druid, at least game 1.
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I second this. This deck is both great and frustrating since there is room to put ones stamp on it but also nobody knows what the optimal list is....