I'm trying to track down a list I saw awhile back. It was Bant only, no black, no Finks. It had Geists in the side and no Coralhelm combo. Anyone remember seeing this recently? I checked tcdecks but didn't find what I was looking for. Ring a bell with anyone?
I'm trying to track down a list I saw awhile back. It was Bant only, no black, no Finks. It had Geists in the side and no Coralhelm combo. Anyone remember seeing this recently? I checked tcdecks but didn't find what I was looking for. Ring a bell with anyone?
I'm trying to track down a list I saw awhile back. It was Bant only, no black, no Finks. It had Geists in the side and no Coralhelm combo. Anyone remember seeing this recently? I checked tcdecks but didn't find what I was looking for. Ring a bell with anyone?
Round 1 vs BG Midrange 2-0
Game 1 I combo turn 3 through a Thoughtseize
Game 2 I borded out all of the dorks and prepare for a really grindy game. I keep a super slow hand with EWit, 2 Companies, and a Chord. I eventually cast 3 Companies getting 3 EWits in play among other things. He has some removal and eventually finds a Damnation to clear my huge board. He has killed 3 Druids by this point (and I boarded out 2 Viziers too). I then cast 3 more Companies and find the last Druid and a Spirit then Chord for the Vizier to win. He was drowned in card advantage and couldn't keep up.
Round 2 vs UB Mill 2-0
Game 1 I combo turn 3 with no disruption
Game 2 I stick a KotR and he mills most of my deck. It 2-shots him after some chump blockers are cleared.
Round 3 vs Affinity 0-2
Game 1 he mulls to 5 and I have a above-average hand but no Druid/Vizier. He is off to a really slow start, incrementally hitting me to 4 poison while I didn't chump with Birds because I wanted to cast Company on turn 3. After the first one I chump with a Birds and bring it back with Rallier. The board then becomes pretty stalled out as he can't attack though all my creatures anymore. At this point I became pretty tunnel visioned on assembling the combo and winning so I proceeded to power out 5 more companies never once hitting a single Druid or Vizier (or really anything super relevant at all). He then eto Galv Blasts my face and untaps, equips an Etched Champion (that he never attacked with) with a plating, and hits me for exactly lethal... At that point I realized I should have been attacking as my board was 2 Birds, 2 KotR (about 6/6's), 3 EWit, 1 Finks, 1 Rallier, and 1 Spirit. I had a Township in play too so yeah I would have lost a creature or two but I would have won in about two attacks. It was a super dumb punt but it happened...
Game 2 he had a turn 1 Ornathopter and 2 Signal Pests, then a turn 2 plating and a Galv Blast. I didn't have the turn 3 combo and even if I did I wasn't racing that.
Round 3 vs Bant Spirits 2-0
Game 1 I turn 3 combo (technically turn 4). He passed with 3 lands up so I figured he had Queller. I had a Hierarch and Druid in play (fetched a Stomping ground as I had played Kessig too) with 2 Chords in hand so I had the win as long as he didn't have a Path. I passed the turn to bait him into flashing something in, which he did (Captain with Rattlechains already in play) so I cast my Chords in response and got Vizier & Duskwatch. Untapped and won.
Game 2 I turn 3 combo. Opener was Horizon Canopy, Bird, Druid, 2 Vizier, Recruiter, and Chord. I know he doesn't have much interaction so I kept it, and on turn 3 he passed with 3 mana up again. I played Vizier which he Quellered, so I played the other one and won.
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Thoughts about the list:
- As long as you are not interacted with you can reliably win turn 3 a surprising amount of the time. Having the Kessig Wolf Run is like playing both Ballista and Rhonas but with out taking up another creature slot. You randomly win games with it and KotR is not only a huge threat and a manadork but now also another combo piece.
- 20 lands is very low but I am never flooded now and with "16 dorks" (Birds/Hierarch/Druid/KotR) I am never ever short on mana. If anything I have more mana at every point of the game than other iterations of the deck.
- Mana has never been a problem. You can get Red whenever you need it with fetches/KotR/Birds, and same with Black. I have not had any problems and I selected the manabase to always have G because of my ptsd from playing Godless Shrine and not being able to cast Chords... Even the hands where you draw a Plains or utility land I've had so many dorks its not a problem accessing colours.
- KotR is a beast and Finks is almost a wasted slot in the deck now I feel. It's nice vs BG midrange decks but I think just chaining Companies and Pharika are enough. I may cur them entirely but I am still a little worried about Burn.
- Aside from Finks, Rallier wasn't really as impressive as it has been in the past. I could see getting rid of them, or just cutting one at least. They range from really really good to really really bad and I find myself holding them waiting to use their abilities more often now that the deck is so heavy on the combo. It does have a nice interaction with Horizon Canopy though.
- Another Recruiter couldn't hurt as on turn 3 I always seem to have 5 mana now. It could get played and activated which just helps dig for a Druid. I could see myself adding one more.
- Sideboard considerations are: another Burrenton Forge-Tender since I'm playing less land and more dorks it's even more important to protect them. Another Selfless Spirit somewhere in the 75 would be welcome too.
This was the first time I've taken it out other than playing in-house testing. It preformed as I thought it would and even a little better. I'd totally suggest to people to try out the Knights as it adds a completely different dynamic to the deck. They play defense like Finks do but also attack a lot harder. I don't miss the finks combo at all as I can't even remember if I've pulled off that combo since Vizier has been printed. I'll continue to tweak the list and report back.
I love that list man. I'm a huge HUGE knight fan. I'm going to try it out, but maybe cutting the rallier's for finks/viscera seer, to enable the other combo. Did you try that already?
Also I can see what Moneymaker is saying with the feeder combo, I might also try that....
@torpf I like your list a lot! I would only remove the ralliers and selfless spirit. Replace them with finks and seer. Having redundancy is the strength of abzan company. Maybe also change walking ballista with rhonas since it has nice synergy with big knights.
First game was a weird deck with Unexpected Results that felt like a really bad, random reanimator. Went 2-1-0 only because I flooded like crazy in the beginning game where I held a bad hand.
Second game was Eldrazi Tron. Went 1-2-0, stomped it in the first game with a quick combo. Even though he never even had tron online, game 2 and 3 where really hard fights since he had a very strong sideboard plan (brought in 14 cards against me) and had answers all the time. Kept my combo down with removal and had the ghost quarters to kill Township. 2nd game was sealed by All Is Dust and second game I couldn't get any card advantage going successfully. I think some of my budget choices played into that loss.
Third game (went 2-1-0) was against a black-based Waste Not deck that I have never seen before and that could pull out a surprise win on their turn 3 with their nut draw of 2xLiliana's Caress+Simian Spirit Guide+Burning Inquiry, Game 2 was a more grindy one where I topdecked Collected Company for the win. Game 3 he didn't generate enough value and I won by smashing face with [[Krallenhorde Howler]].
Last game was UR control with Kiki/Pestermite/Exarch combo, went 2-1-0. Won the first game due to a mistake of my opponent where he tapped out at the wrong time where I could combo off in response. Second game he straight up out-valued me (Electrolyze is not a card this deck wants to see), but third game he couldn't get snapcaster value due to graveyard hate and a bit of flooding, his answers dried up and I comboed off.
Conclusion: I really like this deck. Easy to pick up, but a lot to learn before I will master it. I didn't really miss the Finks combo all that much, playing 4 Duskwatch and a Rhonas to guarantee that the combo means a win seems much more imprtant. The games I lost were because I lost control of the board, not because of a low life total.
@Torpf: if you feel you have very often 5 mana by turn 3, why wouldn't you swap your 2 finks for the angel-feeder duo?
I doubt it would be worth it. The times that you hit Spike Feeder off of Company you probably would have wanted a Finks, and Archangel of Thune is a wiff off of Company which adds to the total with Ballista. Sure having a Archangel in hand and dropping it turn 3 can be game winning but I think the times it is not game winnning it will be real bad. It loses value by not playing Finks anymore so you can't trigger it outside of combat. Would I Chord for it? That takes 8 mana which is more than I am hopefully going to see over the course of a game. I want to play out my hand fast then begin chaining Companies and Witnesses and using them to avoid playing manadorks for the rest of the game. Lastly the deck is really focused on the Druid/Vizier combo now, which the Angelfeeder combo does not interact with at all. It's also harder to assemble then other combos since Angel can't be 'accidentally' put into play with Company and it's hard to Chord for. For now I'll stay away from the combo.
I love that list man. I'm a huge HUGE knight fan. I'm going to try it out, but maybe cutting the rallier's for finks/viscera seer, to enable the other combo. Did you try that already?
Also I can see what Moneymaker is saying with the feeder combo, I might also try that....
Thanks for the inspiration guys!
Thanks. First off I think you are missing the whole point of my list. I crafted it with the intention of not playing the Viscera Seer + Vizier + Finks combo in the 75, you can read the original post here. My reasoning is that since the ban I cannot remember ever using the Finks combo and I have played hundreds of games. The Druid-Vizier combo is just so much faster and easier to assemble, and once you do basically half your deck becomes the missing third piece to allow you to win. What I have done with this new list I'm running is I made even more of the deck become "oops I win" cards to make the combo so much more redundant. Before I had times where I would have infinite mana on turn 3 and nothing to do but dump the other few cards in my hand, while now there's always been some line of play to make it work. (If they ever print some Lightning Greaves-like creature then it will completely break the deck as all I did was add more tap abilities lol.)
Even with the Finks combo decks that don't fold to infinite life include: Affinity, Eldrazi Tron, UWR Control with Emmy+Nihiri, Gx Tron, the mirror, Lantern, Infect, U Tron, UR Breach, Bant Company, Ad Nauseam, Humans, Bant & BW Eldrazi (if they TKS your wincon), Elves, Saheeli, Mill, Eggs, etc... Decks that do are: Storm, Death's Shadow, Titanshift, Burn, BG/x, Dredge, D&T, Merfolk, Living End, Bant Spirits, etc... There are just more things in the format where infinite life doesn't matter than when it does, and in both cases I'd be trying to win with the Druid combo anyways since its easier.
I also explained my stance on the Angelfeeder combo above.
@torpf I like your list a lot! I would only remove the ralliers and selfless spirit. Replace them with finks and seer. Having redundancy is the strength of abzan company. Maybe also change walking ballista with rhonas since it has nice synergy with big knights.
Same thing as the quote above as why I'd be cutting the Finks before the others. That said Ralliers are very close to the chopping block right now. I like having 1 form of protection main (Skite or Spirit) is good though in case you really need it. It has saved me enough times over things like Scooze which don't directly aid the combo.
I am keeping 2 Finks for now as it does help swing the BG/x and Burn matchups in our favor, so possibly a third can be added but I still do not feel that Viscera Seerneeds a place in the maindeck anymore.
I am playing Ballista over Rhonas because Kessig Wolf Run is acting as my Rhonas in the deck. Sometimes you need a way to win on the spot when they know you are playing Rhonas and Bolt/Push/Path your Druid on turn 3 to buy an additional turn. Ballista lets you win where Rhonas doesn't. Ballista also helps win the Ad Nauseum matchup. Normally I would play Rhonas over Ballista but with this configuration I like the diversity of them.
@Torpf: if you feel you have very often 5 mana by turn 3, why wouldn't you swap your 2 finks for the angel-feeder duo?
Also,in a deck with 4 kotr, I believe you should add 1 ghoster quarter, don't you think? To kill a nexus, a valakut, a colonade or a tron piece... You could with it gain (at least) 1 (often critical) turn.
I thought about it, and in lists when I was playing 22 lands I had 3 colourless sources but cutting down to 20 I only want 2. I have vivid memories of playing Godless Shrines way back with Anafenza (now Vizier) and not having the G needed to Chord for the finks combo on turn 3 or 4. Perhaps I can put one in if I cut the basic Plains which would be my first thought.
@torpf
Some points I found myself thinking about lately with more non-Finks versions showing up. Would like to hear your thoughts
Vizier is a non-threat on her own, as Druid won't come in with haste. With Finks combo, a board of just Vizier can go infinite the next turn or even at instant speed with a lucky company. I feel turning 4 cards we're running anyway (because druid) into more of a threat is pretty relevant if we want to optimize our efficiency.
I agree with Druid combo being superior to Finks combo, also agree that many decks have outs to inf. life ('cept I don't know how Humans would do that, not too familiar with the deck). However, I feel that the stacking is very relevant and helpful to set up the win - sure, takes longer, but now we're working with a good buffer against a lot of decks, even if they can beat the inf. life. Anafenza finishes the next turn, Druid in two turns, and post-board we can keep people disrupted until we win. Also found a pretty big difference between the decks that beat Finks. Stuff like AdNaus or Eggs is trouble, but slower decks (Affinity, Eldrazi, etc) we can very realistically beat before they find their answer. With that in mind, I feel the combo is still very relevant for the deck.
That said, I like the idea of Knights, so good luck with the testing and tuning
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"I can call an army to my side in the blink of an eye. Best not blink."
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Vizier is a non-threat on her own, as Druid won't come in with haste. With Finks combo, a board of just Vizier can go infinite the next turn or even at instant speed with a lucky company. I feel turning 4 cards we're running anyway (because druid) into more of a threat is pretty relevant if we want to optimize our efficiency.
That's just it though. How often are you getting that lucky company that allows you to combo off turn 3? Most lists are only playing 1 Viscera Seer these days so the chances of hitting both it and a Finks or Vizier, whatever isn't already in play, is very low. Most times you'd have a Finks and Vizier in play you'd then have to use a Chord to go find the Seer. Lastly, you can't block with Finks at all because it can't have any counters on it to combo off. There are a lot of big creatures in the format now and you need to chump sometimes. KotR is usually bigger and can both block and help combo off still, or just live through it. I just don't think you need to play the old combo anymore as it takes more effort than it's worth at this point, in my opinion.
I agree with Druid combo being superior to Finks combo, also agree that many decks have outs to inf. life ('cept I don't know how Humans would do that, not too familiar with the deck).
Whoops that was supposed to be in the other list. Humans can't beat infinite life. (accidental flavor win too?)
However, I feel that the stacking is very relevant and helpful to set up the win - sure, takes longer, but now we're working with a good buffer against a lot of decks, even if they can beat the inf. life. Anafenza finishes the next turn, Druid in two turns, and post-board we can keep people disrupted until we win. Also found a pretty big difference between the decks that beat Finks. Stuff like AdNaus or Eggs is trouble, but slower decks (Affinity, Eldrazi, etc) we can very realistically beat before they find their answer. With that in mind, I feel the combo is still very relevant for the deck.
That said, I like the idea of Knights, so good luck with the testing and tuning
Yeah you can often get an extra turn against decks but if you are comboing off turn 3 with Finks then other decks are going to untap on their turn 4 and either stabilize or know that they have to have removal to stop you from winning. The Finks combo can also be disrupted whereas once you have a non-summoning sick Druid there is nothing to stop you from comboing off. If I am playing a combo I want to know I will win on the spot with it, which the Druid combo seemingly gives more consistency with these days I feel.
That's just it though. How often are you getting that lucky company that allows you to combo off turn 3? Most lists are only playing 1 Viscera Seer these days so the chances of hitting both it and a Finks or Vizier, whatever isn't already in play, is very low. Most times you'd have a Finks and Vizier in play you'd then have to use a Chord to go find the Seer. Lastly, you can't block with Finks at all because it can't have any counters on it to combo off. There are a lot of big creatures in the format now and you need to chump sometimes. KotR is usually bigger and can both block and help combo off still, or just live through it. I just don't think you need to play the old combo anymore as it takes more effort than it's worth at this point, in my opinion.
Aye, the odds are low. To be fair, I also don't like the 1-of Seer and no Anafenza if I'm running the combo, felt pretty weak in my testing (generally on 2 Seer and 1 Anafenza). Agreed in regards to blocking, even tho my Knights tend to be 3/3's because I'm not drawing fetches
Quote from Torpf »
accidental flavor win too?
Quote from Torpf »
Yeah you can often get an extra turn against decks but if you are comboing off turn 3 with Finks then other decks are going to untap on their turn 4 and either stabilize or know that they have to have removal to stop you from winning. The Finks combo can also be disrupted whereas once you have a non-summoning sick Druid there is nothing to stop you from comboing off. If I am playing a combo I want to know I will win on the spot with it, which the Druid combo seemingly gives more consistency with these days I feel.
Agreed that if we had to run only 1 combo, it would 100% be Druid, but we're comparing backup plans, not the main one (we have the same amount of outs for a t3 kill, for example), and for that I still think that Finks combo is very good. Only a few decks can beat the assembled combo in 1 turn, and most of those need pretty strong draws to do that as well. One piece of removal isn't enough usually, as we're either re-assembling the combo next turn or set up a Druid kill.
Once I can get some games in I'll play around with Knights as well to get some experience with them. Kinda sad that having both backup plans takes up so many slots :/
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"I can call an army to my side in the blink of an eye. Best not blink."
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
round 1 vs Mono-white Prison (homebrew) 2-0
Game 1 found infinite life combo on turn 3 (hitting both finks and seer off a CoCo). Opponent wanted to keep playing, although I still have no idea what his out would be, so decided to scary Druid to the top of my library with a single Chord in hand. Proceeded to get infinite mana combo and play walking ballista.
Game 2 I used double Freebooter to steal two declaration in stone from my opponents hand and saw he had land and sphere of safety. Felt pretty confident I could play my Druid the following turn and eventually combo on turn 4.
Round 2 vs E-Tron 2-1
Game 1 I naturally drew into the infinite life combo on turn 4. My opponent was about to scoop, and it being FNM and the fact that he often misses triggers/abilities etc. I thought I would be nice and point out that he could still potentially win if he found an Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger - really wish I had let him scoop because this is how the game planned out. He had his turn and sulkily played an Ulamog, the invite gyre and stupidly I forgot that annihalator affects permanents and not just creatures. I scried Vizier to the top of my library but realised that I wouldn’t have enough lands or creatures to keep my Druid alive or play Chord/CoCo. Struggling to think of a way out of the situation my opponent drew a blightsteel coloussus.... with no board state nor lands I lost the following turn!!
Game 2 and 3 were great recompense. Found infinite mana combo on turn 3 in both games! Excellent games but lesson learnt.
Round 3 vs Bant spirits 2-1
Game 1 I managed to build a bit of a board state with several Freebooters, mana dorks, seer and a Druid. Opponent attacked and blocked with everything but the Druid and used seer to scry a Vizier to the top of my library and won on my turn.
Game 2 I couldn’t keep up with several Geists and 4/4 flying angels. Game 3 my opponent mulled to 5 and never recovered and I got the infinite mana combo on turn 4.
Round 4 vs affinity 0-2
Game 1 my opponent dumped his entire hand and swung for 12 the following turn. Nothing I could do. Game 2 was virtually the same as the first except a turn later.
Thoughts
- I can see there are some arguments for dropping the Finks combo. However, having played versions of the deck with KotR I feel that being able to jam either combo is just too good. Infinite life is not a guaranteed win (as my match against E-Tron proved), but it’s pretty difficult to overcome for a lot of decks. Or might be able to buy you enough time to find the other combo. I agree that KotR can be an absolute powerhouse and can help with filtering lands or finding Kessig. However, have a free chump blocker that can be utilised in a combo is too invaluable.
- Kitesail Freebooter was excellent. Not only having a flying creature that can get pumped by Township, but seeing an opponents hand is invaluable. I will be keeping them in the deck.
- I know my Affinity opponent had some absolute nut-draws, but I really felt I couldn’t race him. Anyone got any experience?
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Cheeri0s is the breakfast of championsWRU Everyone loves an angry mobRWG Why so Bloo?RU
- I know my Affinity opponent had some absolute nut-draws, but I really felt I couldn’t race him. Anyone got any experience?
Your sideboard plan against affinity is just too weak. The answer to the question of "what beats affinity" is always the same, Stony Silence.
Oh, and please try to type the cards correctly in your posts. It's a pain having to look up cards you don't remember the exact wording of just because someone is too lazy to spellcheck their post.
I'm gearing up for another RTPQ with the deck (Abzan build). I've toyed with 4C using Spell Queller but I didn't enjoy it as much.
I'm really starting to grow tired of Rhonas and I was wondering if others have felt the same. I want to pull him from the deck and maybe add another Walking Ballista or a 4th Eternal Witness.
For reference here's my current build (minus Rhonas) I'm still on the 20 land from months ago and have never had a problem.
- I indeed resolve this combo nearly never anymore
- Against burn it helps but I remember a game I lost even with playing 2 finks. And against affinity it is clearly too slow.
I pull off the combo a lot against various decks. Maybe it's just me tho
One game means nothing. I lost to Affinity with Stony t2 and against BGx with t4 Sigarda, doesn't mean that those cards aren't still amazing.
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"I can call an army to my side in the blink of an eye. Best not blink."
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Maybe my sideboard plan is too weak versus Affinity. Any suggestions what I would drop in order to fit stony silence in? I’ve often not opted for it as it is a whiff off CoCo, can’t be hit with Chord, nor Duskwatch, so haven’t got anyway to tutor for it. Best option seems another Kataki, war’s wage.
Also noted regarding the spelling of the cards. However, as far as I can tell I spelt two wrong(?!), which were genuine mistakes because tablets tend to autocorrect even though I typed them in right. Just for your sake, I will make sure they’re right from now on
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@Wesste
With 1 Kataki, 2 Path, 2 Decay and a Pridemage you should be fine, tbh. Affinity MU feels pretty solid, we're usually faster than them and they don't have a lot of removal. Aethergrid is trouble, but nothing we can't blow up. If you want more cards against them, get a Rec Sage and/or an Orzhov Pontiff, probably over the Thalia and the 3rd Sin Collector.
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"I can call an army to my side in the blink of an eye. Best not blink."
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
I'm gearing up for another RTPQ with the deck (Abzan build). I've toyed with 4C using Spell Queller but I didn't enjoy it as much.
I'm really starting to grow tired of Rhonas and I was wondering if others have felt the same. I want to pull him from the deck and maybe add another Walking Ballista or a 4th Eternal Witness.
For reference here's my current build (minus Rhonas) I'm still on the 20 land from months ago and have never had a problem.
If you look at MTG top 8, you'll see most lists don't play Rhonas or Selfless spirit MB. I've replaced mine with 2 Voice of Resurgence (the next most popular card). If I were you I would do an E wit + Tireless tracker or Ewit + land (Razorverge)
It's Kyle Boggemes' list from SCG Cincinnati.
Yes! Thanks!
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Staff4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Eternal Witness
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Walking Ballista
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
Lands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Gavony Township
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Sin Collector
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
2 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
Round 1 vs BG Midrange 2-0
Game 1 I combo turn 3 through a Thoughtseize
Game 2 I borded out all of the dorks and prepare for a really grindy game. I keep a super slow hand with EWit, 2 Companies, and a Chord. I eventually cast 3 Companies getting 3 EWits in play among other things. He has some removal and eventually finds a Damnation to clear my huge board. He has killed 3 Druids by this point (and I boarded out 2 Viziers too). I then cast 3 more Companies and find the last Druid and a Spirit then Chord for the Vizier to win. He was drowned in card advantage and couldn't keep up.
Round 2 vs UB Mill 2-0
Game 1 I combo turn 3 with no disruption
Game 2 I stick a KotR and he mills most of my deck. It 2-shots him after some chump blockers are cleared.
Round 3 vs Affinity 0-2
Game 1 he mulls to 5 and I have a above-average hand but no Druid/Vizier. He is off to a really slow start, incrementally hitting me to 4 poison while I didn't chump with Birds because I wanted to cast Company on turn 3. After the first one I chump with a Birds and bring it back with Rallier. The board then becomes pretty stalled out as he can't attack though all my creatures anymore. At this point I became pretty tunnel visioned on assembling the combo and winning so I proceeded to power out 5 more companies never once hitting a single Druid or Vizier (or really anything super relevant at all). He then eto Galv Blasts my face and untaps, equips an Etched Champion (that he never attacked with) with a plating, and hits me for exactly lethal... At that point I realized I should have been attacking as my board was 2 Birds, 2 KotR (about 6/6's), 3 EWit, 1 Finks, 1 Rallier, and 1 Spirit. I had a Township in play too so yeah I would have lost a creature or two but I would have won in about two attacks. It was a super dumb punt but it happened...
Game 2 he had a turn 1 Ornathopter and 2 Signal Pests, then a turn 2 plating and a Galv Blast. I didn't have the turn 3 combo and even if I did I wasn't racing that.
Round 3 vs Bant Spirits 2-0
Game 1 I turn 3 combo (technically turn 4). He passed with 3 lands up so I figured he had Queller. I had a Hierarch and Druid in play (fetched a Stomping ground as I had played Kessig too) with 2 Chords in hand so I had the win as long as he didn't have a Path. I passed the turn to bait him into flashing something in, which he did (Captain with Rattlechains already in play) so I cast my Chords in response and got Vizier & Duskwatch. Untapped and won.
Game 2 I turn 3 combo. Opener was Horizon Canopy, Bird, Druid, 2 Vizier, Recruiter, and Chord. I know he doesn't have much interaction so I kept it, and on turn 3 he passed with 3 mana up again. I played Vizier which he Quellered, so I played the other one and won.
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Thoughts about the list:
- As long as you are not interacted with you can reliably win turn 3 a surprising amount of the time. Having the Kessig Wolf Run is like playing both Ballista and Rhonas but with out taking up another creature slot. You randomly win games with it and KotR is not only a huge threat and a manadork but now also another combo piece.
- 20 lands is very low but I am never flooded now and with "16 dorks" (Birds/Hierarch/Druid/KotR) I am never ever short on mana. If anything I have more mana at every point of the game than other iterations of the deck.
- Mana has never been a problem. You can get Red whenever you need it with fetches/KotR/Birds, and same with Black. I have not had any problems and I selected the manabase to always have G because of my ptsd from playing Godless Shrine and not being able to cast Chords... Even the hands where you draw a Plains or utility land I've had so many dorks its not a problem accessing colours.
- KotR is a beast and Finks is almost a wasted slot in the deck now I feel. It's nice vs BG midrange decks but I think just chaining Companies and Pharika are enough. I may cur them entirely but I am still a little worried about Burn.
- Aside from Finks, Rallier wasn't really as impressive as it has been in the past. I could see getting rid of them, or just cutting one at least. They range from really really good to really really bad and I find myself holding them waiting to use their abilities more often now that the deck is so heavy on the combo. It does have a nice interaction with Horizon Canopy though.
- Another Recruiter couldn't hurt as on turn 3 I always seem to have 5 mana now. It could get played and activated which just helps dig for a Druid. I could see myself adding one more.
- Sideboard considerations are: another Burrenton Forge-Tender since I'm playing less land and more dorks it's even more important to protect them. Another Selfless Spirit somewhere in the 75 would be welcome too.
This was the first time I've taken it out other than playing in-house testing. It preformed as I thought it would and even a little better. I'd totally suggest to people to try out the Knights as it adds a completely different dynamic to the deck. They play defense like Finks do but also attack a lot harder. I don't miss the finks combo at all as I can't even remember if I've pulled off that combo since Vizier has been printed. I'll continue to tweak the list and report back.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Also I can see what Moneymaker is saying with the feeder combo, I might also try that....
Thanks for the inspiration guys!
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Devoted Druid
4x Duskwatch Recruiter
3x Elvish Mystic
4x Eternal Witness
2x Renegade Rallier
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Spellskite
4x Vizier of Remedies
1x Walking Ballista
4x Forest
2x Gavony Township
1x Marsh Flats
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Scattered Groves
2x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
Instant (8)
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
1x Aegis of the Gods
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Fatal Push
1x Golgari Charm
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Kitesail Freebooter
2x Path to Exile
1x Spellskite
2x Stony Silence
1x Tormod's Crypt
Went 3-1-0
First game was a weird deck with Unexpected Results that felt like a really bad, random reanimator. Went 2-1-0 only because I flooded like crazy in the beginning game where I held a bad hand.
Second game was Eldrazi Tron. Went 1-2-0, stomped it in the first game with a quick combo. Even though he never even had tron online, game 2 and 3 where really hard fights since he had a very strong sideboard plan (brought in 14 cards against me) and had answers all the time. Kept my combo down with removal and had the ghost quarters to kill Township. 2nd game was sealed by All Is Dust and second game I couldn't get any card advantage going successfully. I think some of my budget choices played into that loss.
Third game (went 2-1-0) was against a black-based Waste Not deck that I have never seen before and that could pull out a surprise win on their turn 3 with their nut draw of 2xLiliana's Caress+Simian Spirit Guide+Burning Inquiry, Game 2 was a more grindy one where I topdecked Collected Company for the win. Game 3 he didn't generate enough value and I won by smashing face with [[Krallenhorde Howler]].
Last game was UR control with Kiki/Pestermite/Exarch combo, went 2-1-0. Won the first game due to a mistake of my opponent where he tapped out at the wrong time where I could combo off in response. Second game he straight up out-valued me (Electrolyze is not a card this deck wants to see), but third game he couldn't get snapcaster value due to graveyard hate and a bit of flooding, his answers dried up and I comboed off.
Conclusion: I really like this deck. Easy to pick up, but a lot to learn before I will master it. I didn't really miss the Finks combo all that much, playing 4 Duskwatch and a Rhonas to guarantee that the combo means a win seems much more imprtant. The games I lost were because I lost control of the board, not because of a low life total.
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StaffThanks. First off I think you are missing the whole point of my list. I crafted it with the intention of not playing the Viscera Seer + Vizier + Finks combo in the 75, you can read the original post here. My reasoning is that since the ban I cannot remember ever using the Finks combo and I have played hundreds of games. The Druid-Vizier combo is just so much faster and easier to assemble, and once you do basically half your deck becomes the missing third piece to allow you to win. What I have done with this new list I'm running is I made even more of the deck become "oops I win" cards to make the combo so much more redundant. Before I had times where I would have infinite mana on turn 3 and nothing to do but dump the other few cards in my hand, while now there's always been some line of play to make it work. (If they ever print some Lightning Greaves-like creature then it will completely break the deck as all I did was add more tap abilities lol.)
Even with the Finks combo decks that don't fold to infinite life include: Affinity, Eldrazi Tron, UWR Control with Emmy+Nihiri, Gx Tron, the mirror, Lantern, Infect, U Tron, UR Breach, Bant Company, Ad Nauseam, Humans, Bant & BW Eldrazi (if they TKS your wincon), Elves, Saheeli, Mill, Eggs, etc... Decks that do are: Storm, Death's Shadow, Titanshift, Burn, BG/x, Dredge, D&T, Merfolk, Living End, Bant Spirits, etc... There are just more things in the format where infinite life doesn't matter than when it does, and in both cases I'd be trying to win with the Druid combo anyways since its easier.
I also explained my stance on the Angelfeeder combo above.
Same thing as the quote above as why I'd be cutting the Finks before the others. That said Ralliers are very close to the chopping block right now. I like having 1 form of protection main (Skite or Spirit) is good though in case you really need it. It has saved me enough times over things like Scooze which don't directly aid the combo.
I am keeping 2 Finks for now as it does help swing the BG/x and Burn matchups in our favor, so possibly a third can be added but I still do not feel that Viscera Seer needs a place in the maindeck anymore.
I am playing Ballista over Rhonas because Kessig Wolf Run is acting as my Rhonas in the deck. Sometimes you need a way to win on the spot when they know you are playing Rhonas and Bolt/Push/Path your Druid on turn 3 to buy an additional turn. Ballista lets you win where Rhonas doesn't. Ballista also helps win the Ad Nauseum matchup. Normally I would play Rhonas over Ballista but with this configuration I like the diversity of them.
I thought about it, and in lists when I was playing 22 lands I had 3 colourless sources but cutting down to 20 I only want 2. I have vivid memories of playing Godless Shrines way back with Anafenza (now Vizier) and not having the G needed to Chord for the finks combo on turn 3 or 4. Perhaps I can put one in if I cut the basic Plains which would be my first thought.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Some points I found myself thinking about lately with more non-Finks versions showing up. Would like to hear your thoughts
Vizier is a non-threat on her own, as Druid won't come in with haste. With Finks combo, a board of just Vizier can go infinite the next turn or even at instant speed with a lucky company. I feel turning 4 cards we're running anyway (because druid) into more of a threat is pretty relevant if we want to optimize our efficiency.
I agree with Druid combo being superior to Finks combo, also agree that many decks have outs to inf. life ('cept I don't know how Humans would do that, not too familiar with the deck). However, I feel that the stacking is very relevant and helpful to set up the win - sure, takes longer, but now we're working with a good buffer against a lot of decks, even if they can beat the inf. life. Anafenza finishes the next turn, Druid in two turns, and post-board we can keep people disrupted until we win. Also found a pretty big difference between the decks that beat Finks. Stuff like AdNaus or Eggs is trouble, but slower decks (Affinity, Eldrazi, etc) we can very realistically beat before they find their answer. With that in mind, I feel the combo is still very relevant for the deck.
That said, I like the idea of Knights, so good luck with the testing and tuning
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
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StaffWhoops that was supposed to be in the other list. Humans can't beat infinite life. (accidental flavor win too?)
Yeah you can often get an extra turn against decks but if you are comboing off turn 3 with Finks then other decks are going to untap on their turn 4 and either stabilize or know that they have to have removal to stop you from winning. The Finks combo can also be disrupted whereas once you have a non-summoning sick Druid there is nothing to stop you from comboing off. If I am playing a combo I want to know I will win on the spot with it, which the Druid combo seemingly gives more consistency with these days I feel.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Aye, the odds are low. To be fair, I also don't like the 1-of Seer and no Anafenza if I'm running the combo, felt pretty weak in my testing (generally on 2 Seer and 1 Anafenza). Agreed in regards to blocking, even tho my Knights tend to be 3/3's because I'm not drawing fetches
Agreed that if we had to run only 1 combo, it would 100% be Druid, but we're comparing backup plans, not the main one (we have the same amount of outs for a t3 kill, for example), and for that I still think that Finks combo is very good. Only a few decks can beat the assembled combo in 1 turn, and most of those need pretty strong draws to do that as well. One piece of removal isn't enough usually, as we're either re-assembling the combo next turn or set up a Druid kill.
Once I can get some games in I'll play around with Knights as well to get some experience with them. Kinda sad that having both backup plans takes up so many slots :/
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
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4 birds of paradise
3 noble hierarch
1 viscera seer
4 devoted Druid
4 vizier of remedies
1 spellskite
1 scavenging ooze
3 Kitesail Freebooter
1 duskwatch recruiter
3 kitchen finks
1 walking ballista
2 renegade rallier
4 eternal witness
4 Collected Comoany
4 chord of calling
1 kambal, consul of allocation
1 Anafenza, the foremost
1 linvala, keeper of secrets
1 sigarda host of herons
1 Kataki wars wage
3 sin collector
2 pathetic to exile
2 abrupt decay
1 Qasali pridemage
1 Thalia, heretic cathar
1 selfless spirit
round 1 vs Mono-white Prison (homebrew) 2-0
Game 1 found infinite life combo on turn 3 (hitting both finks and seer off a CoCo). Opponent wanted to keep playing, although I still have no idea what his out would be, so decided to scary Druid to the top of my library with a single Chord in hand. Proceeded to get infinite mana combo and play walking ballista.
Game 2 I used double Freebooter to steal two declaration in stone from my opponents hand and saw he had land and sphere of safety. Felt pretty confident I could play my Druid the following turn and eventually combo on turn 4.
Round 2 vs E-Tron 2-1
Game 1 I naturally drew into the infinite life combo on turn 4. My opponent was about to scoop, and it being FNM and the fact that he often misses triggers/abilities etc. I thought I would be nice and point out that he could still potentially win if he found an Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger - really wish I had let him scoop because this is how the game planned out. He had his turn and sulkily played an Ulamog, the invite gyre and stupidly I forgot that annihalator affects permanents and not just creatures. I scried Vizier to the top of my library but realised that I wouldn’t have enough lands or creatures to keep my Druid alive or play Chord/CoCo. Struggling to think of a way out of the situation my opponent drew a blightsteel coloussus.... with no board state nor lands I lost the following turn!!
Game 2 and 3 were great recompense. Found infinite mana combo on turn 3 in both games! Excellent games but lesson learnt.
Round 3 vs Bant spirits 2-1
Game 1 I managed to build a bit of a board state with several Freebooters, mana dorks, seer and a Druid. Opponent attacked and blocked with everything but the Druid and used seer to scry a Vizier to the top of my library and won on my turn.
Game 2 I couldn’t keep up with several Geists and 4/4 flying angels. Game 3 my opponent mulled to 5 and never recovered and I got the infinite mana combo on turn 4.
Round 4 vs affinity 0-2
Game 1 my opponent dumped his entire hand and swung for 12 the following turn. Nothing I could do. Game 2 was virtually the same as the first except a turn later.
Thoughts
- I can see there are some arguments for dropping the Finks combo. However, having played versions of the deck with KotR I feel that being able to jam either combo is just too good. Infinite life is not a guaranteed win (as my match against E-Tron proved), but it’s pretty difficult to overcome for a lot of decks. Or might be able to buy you enough time to find the other combo. I agree that KotR can be an absolute powerhouse and can help with filtering lands or finding Kessig. However, have a free chump blocker that can be utilised in a combo is too invaluable.
- Kitesail Freebooter was excellent. Not only having a flying creature that can get pumped by Township, but seeing an opponents hand is invaluable. I will be keeping them in the deck.
- I know my Affinity opponent had some absolute nut-draws, but I really felt I couldn’t race him. Anyone got any experience?
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
Your sideboard plan against affinity is just too weak. The answer to the question of "what beats affinity" is always the same, Stony Silence.
Oh, and please try to type the cards correctly in your posts. It's a pain having to look up cards you don't remember the exact wording of just because someone is too lazy to spellcheck their post.
I'm really starting to grow tired of Rhonas and I was wondering if others have felt the same. I want to pull him from the deck and maybe add another Walking Ballista or a 4th Eternal Witness.
For reference here's my current build (minus Rhonas) I'm still on the 20 land from months ago and have never had a problem.
2 Forest
2 Gavony Township
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Razorverge Thicket
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
Spells
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Devoted Druid
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
3 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Viscera Seer
4 Vizier of Remedies
1 Walking Ballista
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Orzhov Pontiff
3 Path to Exile
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Sin Collector
1 Tireless Tracker
I pull off the combo a lot against various decks. Maybe it's just me tho
One game means nothing. I lost to Affinity with Stony t2 and against BGx with t4 Sigarda, doesn't mean that those cards aren't still amazing.
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
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Also noted regarding the spelling of the cards. However, as far as I can tell I spelt two wrong(?!), which were genuine mistakes because tablets tend to autocorrect even though I typed them in right. Just for your sake, I will make sure they’re right from now on
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
With 1 Kataki, 2 Path, 2 Decay and a Pridemage you should be fine, tbh. Affinity MU feels pretty solid, we're usually faster than them and they don't have a lot of removal. Aethergrid is trouble, but nothing we can't blow up. If you want more cards against them, get a Rec Sage and/or an Orzhov Pontiff, probably over the Thalia and the 3rd Sin Collector.
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
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If you look at MTG top 8, you'll see most lists don't play Rhonas or Selfless spirit MB. I've replaced mine with 2 Voice of Resurgence (the next most popular card). If I were you I would do an E wit + Tireless tracker or Ewit + land (Razorverge)
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Played a small tourney with some friends - won't go into the details as I'm tired but here are the results:
2-1 Eldrazi & taxes
2-0 Grixis Deaths Shadow
2-0 UB Mill
2-1 Jeskai Control
Here's my list - let me know your thoughts!
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Devoted Druid
2x Duskwatch Recruiter
3x Eternal Witness
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Renegade Rallier
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Viscera Seer
4x Vizier of Remedies
2x Voice of Resurgence
1x Walking Ballista
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
Land (22)
3x Forest
2x Gavony Township
1x Godless Shrine
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
2x Razorverge Thicket
2x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Orzhov Pontiff
3x Path to Exile
1x Pharika, God of Affliction
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Selfless Spirit
2x Tidehollow Sculler
RWG Burn
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