Collector doesn't take Walkers/Creatures but never gives the card back, exiles it and is slightly harder to kill. Sculler is a more reliable t2 play and can be a pretty nice tempo plan if you have a few of them. Not being able to freely chump-block with a discard creature is a pretty big drawback as well (more theoretical in nature tho, as it doesn't come up often). Also worth noting is that Collector makes boarding out dorks slightly worse. Personally I like Sculler mostly against classic Tron, everywhere else I prefer Collector.
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"I can call an army to my side in the blink of an eye. Best not blink."
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Sigarda, Host of Herons is better vs. BG/x as she stops Liliana and they can't remove her outside of a sweeper effect. Chameleon Colossus can still get hit by Path to Exile which is a strike against it... I'd play Sigarda over the Colossus to cover more things.
Qasali Pridemage is good but not strictly better. Caustic Caterpillar is used as a way to blow something up in mono green for when you have the combo with Duskwatch and no Green sources. That said, there are a few lines to get around this and still get a Pridemage into play without white so I play it for this reason (note my deck is configured for this). I also play Reclamation Sage to still get the effect in mno green when I need it.
What's the general wisdom on sin collector vs. tidehollow sculler?
I'm on sculler and I see other lists (historic and present) also on the card. There's a significant number of players (notably on this thread) playing collector though.
Anyone got some decent insight as to which is better and what metagames favour each card? (I'm assuming they are both decent and worth playing, but there will be a good time and a bad time for both)
Collector doesn't take Walkers/Creatures but never gives the card back, exiles it and is slightly harder to kill. Sculler is a more reliable t2 play and can be a pretty nice tempo plan if you have a few of them. Not being able to freely chump-block with a discard creature is a pretty big drawback as well (more theoretical in nature tho, as it doesn't come up often). Also worth noting is that Collector makes boarding out dorks slightly worse. Personally I like Sculler mostly against classic Tron, everywhere else I prefer Collector.
Pathrogas pretty much summed it up well. If I am playing Scullers in the board it is because I am anticipating having to interact with super linear removal-light decks such as Ad Naus, Tron, Storm, etc... Against those decks you can take key cards and not be super worried about them removing your sculler right away. Against decks like UWR Conrol, GBx, and others who pay sweepers (Verdict, Damnation, All is Dust, Pyroclasm, etc...) you want their haymaker card gone, and they play so much removal that Sculler isn't going to cut it. lately I've actually shaved the Scullers from my board in favour of just Sin Collector for this reason. I feel that I can adequately race decks now that before I would have to disrupt to keep up with. This also makes me want to try out to Eldritch Evolution plan in the sideboard for speeding up the combo when it really matters.
Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Side out mana sources vs. a land destruction deck? No, I would not.
Aren't they bad vs anger/inferno titan?
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Guys, I would like to hear you opinion on the Devoted list that also run Nahiri + Emmy. Seem like a great way to overcome heavy removal deck. I have not played it yet, but it caught my attention.
Guys, I would like to hear you opinion on the Devoted list that also run Nahiri + Emmy. Seem like a great way to overcome heavy removal deck. I have not played it yet, but it caught my attention.
You must have missed it; the deck already contains 2 blood moon effects, with one magus of the moon in the main and another in the sideboard.
And I'll admit, that list looks decent. Modern has shown that lists like this have room to exist, so it doesn't look out of the ordinary or 'wrong' for the format. It does make certain elements of the established deck a little worse such as gavony township, and it bumps the curve in a way that could prove problematic, but nothing stands out as being offensively wrong there. I'd swap rhonas for ballista 100% but that's just me.
Will I test it? Hmm unclear. I do like the clean, straightforward abzan list I'm running.
Just wanted to say that sin collector have been extremely awesome lately. It has consistently won games.
It's probably only against tron I'd rather have the sculler, and against allmost any other deck I'd rather have sin collector. I have 2 in the board and I'm thinking about going up to 3, that's how good they have been.
Exiling is so much better than discarding, it's gone forever. It makes matchups like storm, Ad Nauseam, control, burn, Deaths's shadow etc way better.
The 1-2 punch of sin collector into distended mindbender can just be game over instantly in some cases, I've discarded allmost entire hands from control for the win.
Speaking of, Distended mindbender has been extremely good in some of our worst matchups, and if you havent tried it, I really recommend it.
Against eldrazi tron, valakut decks, normal tron, control, Ad Nauseam, and basicly any deck that consistently will run or board in 4 mana cards, Distended mindbender can just wreck them.
But that's not the only advantage. It attacks from a totally different angle than people are used to. It doesn't care about anger, bolt etc, and it can survive both Ugin and all is dust. It often discards the removal spell that can itself deal with it as well.
It can be awkward occasionally, but so worth it imo.
Having a good card against valakut and tron type decks is the main reason I run it.
Just wanted to say that sin collector have been extremely awesome lately. It has consistently won games.
It's probably only against tron I'd rather have the sculler, and against allmost any other deck I'd rather have sin collector. I have 2 in the board and I'm thinking about going up to 3, that's how good they have been.
Exiling is so much better than discarding, it's gone forever. It makes matchups like storm, Ad Nauseam, control, burn, Deaths's shadow etc way better.
The 1-2 punch of sin collector into distended mindbender can just be game over instantly in some cases, I've discarded allmost entire hands from control for the win.
Speaking of, Distended mindbender has been extremely good in some of our worst matchups, and if you havent tried it, I really recommend it.
Against eldrazi tron, valakut decks, normal tron, control, Ad Nauseam, and basicly any deck that consistently will run or board in 4 mana cards, Distended mindbender can just wreck them.
But that's not the only advantage. It attacks from a totally different angle than people are used to. It doesn't care about anger, bolt etc, and it can survive both Ugin and all is dust. It often discards the removal spell that can itself deal with it as well.
It can be awkward occasionally, but so worth it imo.
Having a good card against valakut and tron type decks is the main reason I run it.
You have strange thoughts about "good in some of our worst matchups".
I'm not saying it won't work... but cc7 is not too much?
I always thought it was Sigarda too expansive for this deck... tell me what I'm doing wrong?
I'm not sure if you know how distended mindbender and emerge works, but you can cast it turn 3.
Turn 2 mana dork into 3 drop into mindbender, saccing for example a finks or a Sin collector.
Turn 2 druid into turn 3 mindbender also works fine.
If you have to wait untill turn 4, that is also fine.
It's actually easier to cast than sigarda usually (things can of course go wrong as well)
Cast triggers are really powerfull, control has a really hard time against them, and Ad Nauseums pacts of negation don't do much.
Hmm I'm down. I'll test a mindbender out tonight just for the lulz.
Has the potential to just be rubbish of course, but who knows. I feel like you have to have a really good start for it to make sense, and in those scenarios you're probably winning anyway, but I'll admit the discard is very strong against the combo contingent of modern.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
@Nahiri
There's two relevant things to note with lists like this - a) 20 lands and 8 4-drops makes us quite a bit more reliant on dorks, having our dorks killed will hurt a LOT more here than in normal Company. b) the overall card quality is lower than with Abzan - SSG is either broken or crap, and Vizier on it's own isn't a threat without a looming Nahiri ult (Abzan can Company into inf. life) which also makes Company slightly worse (and Nahiri ult should finish the game anyway) - Nahiri does make up for some of that obviously, but it's a real price to pay and to be aware of I feel. For better or worse, the deck seems faster, but also a lot more all-in than the normal Abzan or any Bant builds.
@Mindbender
Mindbender isn't a creature in regards for our sideboarding (not a Company hit, likely not chordable in any relevant situation), so I'm not the biggest fan. We have to have a lot of mana early as well as a sacrificial lamb. If we get there, I'm sure he's great, but I feel the deck is all about consistency and cheap effects, so I'd run another Sin Collector or somesuch if there's lots of combo and control around.
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"I can call an army to my side in the blink of an eye. Best not blink."
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Hmm I'm down. I'll test a mindbender out tonight just for the lulz.
Has the potential to just be rubbish of course, but who knows. I feel like you have to have a really good start for it to make sense, and in those scenarios you're probably winning anyway, but I'll admit the discard is very strong against the combo contingent of modern.
Just remember that you need double black for it when fetching.
Going turn 1 mana dork into turn 2 finks doesn't exactly win any games, especially not against things like valakut decks or tron. It's actually a really bad start.. But if you follow up with mindbender, you might actually have a chance. (either that or combo them quick.)
A few notes on my deckbuilding process later after sleep; first, match write-ups (or what I can remember after work):
Match 1: A on Death's Shadow Grixis (2-0): All I remember for this match is that I felt he was playing the control role way too much against me. Boarded out Arbor Elf, Wall of Roots, and I think Selfless Spirit for all three Path to Exile and possible Scavenging Ooze. Lots of removal and recursion, but not enough threats to keep me preoccupied, and his Tasigur barely helped if at all.
Match 2: C on Bant Knightfall (2-1): Game 1 I lost to plain better beats. Boarded out both Arbor Elf, Wall of Roots, and I believe Selfless Spirit for all three Path to Exile and the lone Linvala, Keeper of Silence. Game 2 I combo'd out (verifying in the process I had not boarded out my win-con), but Game 3 felt like a cheap win as he got absolutely mana-flooded with 3 Retreats on the field by the time I finished him with a 5/5 Caterpillar and a 2/2 Ballista.
Match 3: E on Eldrazi and Taxes (0-2): Same guy that I ID'd with in the last report, and, if I hadn't had to go to work early that night, I would have regret not getting matchup experience against him. I mean, nothing like Reality Smasher, Thoughtseize, Wasteland Strangler, Relic of Progenitus, Fatal Push to ruin a decent record. To make matters worse, I punted during siding and brought in Sin Collector and Distended Mindbender as well Spellskite. Needless to say, a single 5/5 trample haste makes quick work.
Match 4: C on UW Spirits (ID): Friend and Ride; ID for a total net gain of +$5 store credit between the two of us
So, yeah: any help with BW Eldrazi would be appreciated.
Switch some bad-on-their-own creatures for removal and you should be fine vs Eldrazi. Maybe Linvala if Displacer becomes a problem. Ooze can be decent as well. Basically midrange them out.
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"I can call an army to my side in the blink of an eye. Best not blink."
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
So, yeah: any help with BW Eldrazi would be appreciated.
Why run Necrotic Ooze? It's very situational and doesn't help us achieve the combo. It doesn't get hit by Coco and it's difficult to Chord for it. I would replace for a second Duskwatch Recruiter.
Also, why are you running Caustic Caterpillar and Arbor Elf? Even Wall of Roots seems odd. You want your 2 drop slots to be combo creatures (Vizier, Druid, Anafenza) or combo engines to dump your mana into (Duskwatch Recruiter). You should replace the Arbor Elf + Wall of Roots for Noble Hierarch.
Caustic Caterpillar should move to the SB (Unless you have a disgusting amount of artifacts in your meta). Speaking of SB, some of your choices seem odd. You don't have Burrenton-Forge Tender or Aven Mindcensor for Titanshift (one of our worst matchups). Why run Yixlid Jailer? Anafenza is leagues better against graveyard based creature decks. I've also never been a fan of Linvala as she doesn't get hit by Coco and seems way to narrow (it's good against the mirror, and maybe Eldrazi and Taxes - can't think of anything else I'd bring it in against).
Aegis of the Gods is another weird card choice. I'm assuming you bring this in against decks like Burn and Abzan. While on paper it seems to make sense, in practice it's not as good.
Against Abzan, your combo creatures will die no matter what, and they will typically only get 1-3 discard effects throughout a match - turn your dead creatures into 1/1 with deathtouch using Pharika, or play Mirran Crusader as a silver bullet against them.
Against Burn, we are already 50/50. No need to run Aegis of the Gods when it will just get searing blaze or searing blood.
If you are making these choices for budget reasons, then I totally understand, however my suggestions remain.
Necrotic Ooze is somewhat of an experimental tech card whose 2BB manacost made it too clunky to work out as a super-combo piece (Druid, Ballista, and even Recruiter have activated abilities, so once they're binned all you need is Vizier and Ooze theoretically).
Caustic Caterpillar is ran for the sole reason that it is easier to Chord for in response to opponents casting Grafdigger's Cage than Qasali Pridemage, otherwise Pridemage would get the go ahead.
Arbor Elf and Wall of Roots ... while Noble Hierarch would be nice, I do not have the money for them or Horizonopy right now. However, I will still keep a 6-5 split between 1 CMC and 2 CMC dorks.
Yixlid Jailer is not there solely for Dredge; its ability works on non-creature cards as well, meaning it make Gifts Ungiven in Storm a lot worse. Granted, I have yet to play against any of the fast three (Storm, Afffinity, Dredge). with this current iteration, so maybe whether it works or not remains to be seen.
Linvala was a last minute addition, and ironically one I feel rhe most comfortable debating over.
Speaking of Titanshift, Aegis of the Gods is for that specific matchup; since all Valakut triggers go on the stack at once, you can, in response to them triggering PrimeTime, casting Hour of Promise, or casting Scapeshift, Chord for Aegis of the Gods, forcing all the triggers to target it and not you. Forge-tender may be an additional consideration though.
Finally, the elephant in the room; Spellskite is mostly there to protect hate pieces against various linear strategies.
Necrotic Ooze is somewhat of an experimental tech card whose 2BB manacost made it too clunky to work out as a super-combo piece (Druid, Ballista, and even Recruiter have activated abilities, so once they're binned all you need is Vizier and Ooze theoretically). Fair enough - it's a spicy card to test out but I would never play it in a more serious event.
Caustic Caterpillar is ran for the sole reason that it is easier to Chord for in response to opponents casting Grafdigger's Cage than Qasali Pridemage, otherwise Pridemage would get the go ahead. Agreed that Caustic Caterpillar is a good card, however you should not play it main deck unless your meta is full of artifacts that ruin your day
Arbor Elf and Wall of Roots ... while Noble Hierarch would be nice, I do not have the money for them or Horizonopy right now. However, I will still keep a 6-5 split between 1 CMC and 2 CMC dorks. Fair enough, i understand these choices for budget reasons. No argument from me here!
Yixlid Jailer is not there solely for Dredge; its ability works on non-creature cards as well, meaning it make Gifts Ungiven in Storm a lot worse. Granted, I have yet to play against any of the fast three (Storm, Afffinity, Dredge). with this current iteration, so maybe whether it works or not remains to be seen. I still think Anafenza the Foremost is better here.
Linvala was a last minute addition, and ironically one I feel rhe most comfortable debating over. Funnily enough this card appears in almost every SB for decks on MTGTop 8, but I still hate it because it's a 4 CMC card which doesnt hget hit by Coco, and it feels extremely narrow
Speaking of Titanshift, Aegis of the Gods is for that specific matchup; since all Valakut triggers go on the stack at once, you can, in response to them triggering PrimeTime, casting Hour of Promise, or casting Scapeshift, Chord for Aegis of the Gods, forcing all the triggers to target it and not you. Forge-tender may be an additional consideration though. I agree that Aegis of the Gods will save you against Scapeshift, but if they get to cast Scapeshift or Primetime you've probably lost anyway. I'd rather have Burrenton Forge-Tender to have my creatures survive their board wipes, and use Sin Collector and Aven Mindcensor against Scapeshift
Finally, the elephant in the room; Spellskite is mostly there to protect hate pieces against various linear strategies. I agree that Spellskite is a great card for this deck, but it's a meta dependant choice. If you have bolts flying around everywhere, this is a great choice.
Alright, I can agree with most of what you're saying (still debating on if Scapeshift is worth building against in the sense of is this actually a winnable matchup).
So, changes for future iterations in the making:
-Drop from Main: 1 Necrotic Ooze, 2 Arbor Elf, 1 Caustic Caterpillar
-Add to Main: 2 Noble Hierarch, 2 Mimic Vat
-Drop from Side: 1 Distended Mindbender, 1 Yixlid Jailer, 2 Sin Collector
-Add to Side: 1 Anafenza the Foremost, 1 Caustic Caterpillar, 2 Aven Mindcensor
Mimic Vat can be replaced by virtually any recursion/reanimation effect (except Dusk /to/ Dawn; but that's because I have no idea how others are having success with that card), but I especially like Vat as a means to constantly pressure removal-heavy lists.
Only slot I'm debating other than that is Scavenging Ooze vs Pharika, God of Affliction; one provides chump blockers, the other is good against Snapcaster Mage and Eternal Witness engines.
Collector doesn't take Walkers/Creatures but never gives the card back, exiles it and is slightly harder to kill. Sculler is a more reliable t2 play and can be a pretty nice tempo plan if you have a few of them. Not being able to freely chump-block with a discard creature is a pretty big drawback as well (more theoretical in nature tho, as it doesn't come up often). Also worth noting is that Collector makes boarding out dorks slightly worse. Personally I like Sculler mostly against classic Tron, everywhere else I prefer Collector.
Pathrogas pretty much summed it up well. If I am playing Scullers in the board it is because I am anticipating having to interact with super linear removal-light decks such as Ad Naus, Tron, Storm, etc... Against those decks you can take key cards and not be super worried about them removing your sculler right away. Against decks like UWR Conrol, GBx, and others who pay sweepers (Verdict, Damnation, All is Dust, Pyroclasm, etc...) you want their haymaker card gone, and they play so much removal that Sculler isn't going to cut it. lately I've actually shaved the Scullers from my board in favour of just Sin Collector for this reason. I feel that I can adequately race decks now that before I would have to disrupt to keep up with. This also makes me want to try out to Eldritch Evolution plan in the sideboard for speeding up the combo when it really matters.
Can you post your current CoCo list and your idea of side guidelines?
Some notable things is that I have both Rhonas and Ballista right now. I do believe that Rhonas is better so I could cut the Ballista and play either another Rallier or Recruiter. I can also see an argument for going down to 3 Finks these days as that combo doesn't come up as often anymore. I play 22 land and 7 dorks. The Razorverge could be a third Canopy but I have everything foiled out that I can and so I gotta play the foil lands ya know.... I always want green sources for Chord as you can get some weird starts with Viziers and Godless Shrines, which is why I'm playing 2 Overgrown Tombs. The sideboard reasons are as follows:
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender - Stops Anger of the Gods which is a blowout against us. Also good vs Burn, Pyroclasm, Whipflare, Lightning Storm, and others. Having the ability to chord for 1 in a pinch is necessary.
1 Selfless Spirit - Postboard people bring in more boardwipes. This is necessary to beat Damnation, Supreme Verdict, and Anger of the Gods because Spellskite can't. Game 1 people play more targeted removal so Skite is going to be better. Spirit can also let you block with your team and win on the swing back.
1 Scavenging Ooze - Game 1 I want to race decks, I have no time to try and hate out Dredge, Living End, Snapcaster, and the deck can already bury BGx in card advantage so it's not necessary. Bring it in vs. graveyard decks though.
1 Qasali Pridemage - Kills artifacts and enchantments.
1 Reclamation Sage - Same as above, but can be cast off of infinite green for when you need that to combo off.
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric - Stops Storm, Ad Nauseum, Living End, Seismic Swans, etc...
1 Aven Mindcensor - Messes up fetchalnds but also hates out Storm (gifts), Scapeshift and Primetime, and the odd homebrew combo deck.
1 Courser of Kruphix - Comes in vs midrange decks when we side out our manadorks. Helps us keep up playing lands, and is good vs. Burn too.
1 Sin Collector - Specifically for decks that play board wipes, but also comes in vs combo decks to disrupt them.
1 Orzhov Pontiff - vs the mirror, Elves, Affinity, Tokens, Hatebears, and any other small creature decks. Gotta get it off early before creatures get pumped though.
1 Pharika, God of Affliction - Grixis and Jund literally don't play a card that can remove this once in play. It makes a wall of snakes and wins the attrition game. Also good vs Junk but watch out for Path to Exile and Grixis control playing Cryptic.
2 Path to Exile - For killing things that must be killed. Usually hits Eldrazi or Death's Shadow/Tasigur. Everything else can be relatively ignored.
2 Abrupt Decay - For killing everything Path can't.
As for a sideboard guide, using the tier 1 decks from the site right now:
Storm:
+1 Eidolon of Rhetoric, +1 Aven Mindcensor, +1 Sin Collector, +2 Path to Exile, +2 Abrupt Decay
-1 Renegade Rallier, -1 Spellskite, -3 Kitchen Finks, -1 Collected Company, -1 Eternal Witness
This matchup is all about speed, and they are faster. I take out the Finks because yes you can win through infinite life, but its going to be too slow 90% of the time. Shave a Company because you bring in 4 noncreature spells as Electromancer and Baral have to be killed on sight or you're probably going to lose the next turn. I don't care about Rallier and EWit as much because they won't be killing a ton of our things outside of Bolts or a defensive Grapeshot. (These are all general btw, like if I'm on the draw I'd maybe keep in a skite since I'll be a turn slower and things like that. I'm not doing play/draw for each right now)
Affinity:
+1 Selfless Spirit, +1 Qasali Pridemage, +1 Reclamation Sage, +1 Orzhov Pontiff, +2 Abrupt Decay
-4 Kitchen Finks, -1 Rhonas the Indomitable, -1 Viscera Seer
Since they have infect you don't care about life much. They are so fast trying to pull off the infinite life combo to buy time is a bad idea. Instead look to gum up the ground until you can combo. Pridemange and RecSage are removal spells that also pay G for Chord of Calling so play those first then bring in more removal. Abrupt Decay is there to combat Cranial Plating among everything else, while you should bring in Path if you are more worried about their manlands.
Eldrazi Tron:
+1 Aven Mindcensor, +2 Path to Exile
-3 Kitchen Finks
This is a pretty rough matchup. You can bring in Mindcensor to slow them down getting Tron. Pharika slows down their huge creatures on the ground, but can still get exiled by Karn. She doesn't really cut it in the long run like against other decks. If they put a Chalice on X=2, or a Ratchet Bomb, then that blanks like half of your deck. All you can do is race them and get out the combo before they can do anything as you are much faster than them. You can bring in Selfless Spirit if you are really afraid of Ratchet Bomb, or Reclamation Sage if you see they are playing more removal than normal and think the game will go long enough to need to blow up a Chalice. I take out Finks because we can chump with other creatures and infinite life doesn't beat them. Seer is ok though as he scries for the combo and we need it as fast as possible. Try to win on T3/T4 if possible, after that you're going to have a hard time. You cna take the crazy person route and play this like its a Death's Shadow/Jund matchup but 9 times out of 10 you'll get overrun in the long game if you don't win by the early midgame.
Grixis Death's Shadow:
+1 Selfless Spirit, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +1 Courser of Kruphix, +1 Sin Collector, +1 Pharika, God of Affliction, +2 Path to Exile, +2 Abrupt Decay
-3 Noble Hierarch, -4 Birds of Paradise, -1 Chord of Calling, -1 Vizier of Remedies
Your hand is going to get ripped apart, your creatures are going to get removed, and there is very little you can do about it. I like to treat this matchup like Jund and just try to transition into a midrange deck and outvalue them while trying to combo only if it just seemingly happens. This may be a controversial way of doing it, but let me tell you that it works. The last thing you want to be doing is topecking manadorks so raising the overall card quality of our deck, coupled with the fact that we inherently have a bunch of 2-for-1's and Gavony Township to win the long game puts us in a pretty good spot. I cut a Chord instead of a Company even though the creature count is lowered because there isn't a huge need for silver-bullets in this matchup and the chance to get a 2-for-1 off of Company means you should play it. Watch out of people who tech Damantion though as it will wreck us.
Hope that helps. If there is enough interest I can write some more sometime before the one in the primer is done. The difficult part though is the fact that everyones lists are slightly different. However it is always a good learning activity to hear peoples opinions on cards and choices.
@Torpf:
I thank you for your comprehensive answer.
I play a different list, without Rhonas and with only Scavenging Ooze as silver bullet, but how do you side out vs Junk GWB?
Pretty much the same as against Death's Shadow. You want to take out the cards that are going to be bad topdecks and just plan to play the long game and outvalue them.
They do often have Damnation as the only board clear so Selfless Spirit or Sin Collector are going to be your only outs to that. They also have Path to Exile (or some really weird Liliana of the Veil activation) to remove Pharika so be aware of that. Kitchen Finks is a bit worse because you're facing Path, but if they're removing them it will probably give you some room to assemble to combo and win. Don't be afraid to take the matcups a little slower, because you know you will outvalue them in the long game. Also make sure to win 100% of the time to really run home who the better GBW deck is.
Against Jund I'd look to do pretty much the same but also bring in Burrenton Forge-Tender to combat Anger. Honestly Aven Mindcensor can be good too as they play a lot of fetches and can get caught by it.
I'm also eyeing Shapers' Sanctuary as a sideboard card. It could absolutely wreck UWR, Jund, Junk, Grixis, etc... but I don't think there is a huge problem against those decks.
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
Qasali Pridemage is good but not strictly better. Caustic Caterpillar is used as a way to blow something up in mono green for when you have the combo with Duskwatch and no Green sources. That said, there are a few lines to get around this and still get a Pridemage into play without white so I play it for this reason (note my deck is configured for this). I also play Reclamation Sage to still get the effect in mno green when I need it.
Pathrogas pretty much summed it up well. If I am playing Scullers in the board it is because I am anticipating having to interact with super linear removal-light decks such as Ad Naus, Tron, Storm, etc... Against those decks you can take key cards and not be super worried about them removing your sculler right away. Against decks like UWR Conrol, GBx, and others who pay sweepers (Verdict, Damnation, All is Dust, Pyroclasm, etc...) you want their haymaker card gone, and they play so much removal that Sculler isn't going to cut it. lately I've actually shaved the Scullers from my board in favour of just Sin Collector for this reason. I feel that I can adequately race decks now that before I would have to disrupt to keep up with. This also makes me want to try out to Eldritch Evolution plan in the sideboard for speeding up the combo when it really matters.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Aren't they bad vs anger/inferno titan?
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
I was thinking adding Blood Moon effect to it.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/742528#paper
You must have missed it; the deck already contains 2 blood moon effects, with one magus of the moon in the main and another in the sideboard.
And I'll admit, that list looks decent. Modern has shown that lists like this have room to exist, so it doesn't look out of the ordinary or 'wrong' for the format. It does make certain elements of the established deck a little worse such as gavony township, and it bumps the curve in a way that could prove problematic, but nothing stands out as being offensively wrong there. I'd swap rhonas for ballista 100% but that's just me.
Will I test it? Hmm unclear. I do like the clean, straightforward abzan list I'm running.
It's probably only against tron I'd rather have the sculler, and against allmost any other deck I'd rather have sin collector. I have 2 in the board and I'm thinking about going up to 3, that's how good they have been.
Exiling is so much better than discarding, it's gone forever. It makes matchups like storm, Ad Nauseam, control, burn, Deaths's shadow etc way better.
The 1-2 punch of sin collector into distended mindbender can just be game over instantly in some cases, I've discarded allmost entire hands from control for the win.
Speaking of, Distended mindbender has been extremely good in some of our worst matchups, and if you havent tried it, I really recommend it.
Against eldrazi tron, valakut decks, normal tron, control, Ad Nauseam, and basicly any deck that consistently will run or board in 4 mana cards, Distended mindbender can just wreck them.
But that's not the only advantage. It attacks from a totally different angle than people are used to. It doesn't care about anger, bolt etc, and it can survive both Ugin and all is dust. It often discards the removal spell that can itself deal with it as well.
It can be awkward occasionally, but so worth it imo.
Having a good card against valakut and tron type decks is the main reason I run it.
I'm not sure if you know how distended mindbender and emerge works, but you can cast it turn 3.
Turn 2 mana dork into 3 drop into mindbender, saccing for example a finks or a Sin collector.
Turn 2 druid into turn 3 mindbender also works fine.
If you have to wait untill turn 4, that is also fine.
It's actually easier to cast than sigarda usually (things can of course go wrong as well)
Cast triggers are really powerfull, control has a really hard time against them, and Ad Nauseums pacts of negation don't do much.
Has the potential to just be rubbish of course, but who knows. I feel like you have to have a really good start for it to make sense, and in those scenarios you're probably winning anyway, but I'll admit the discard is very strong against the combo contingent of modern.
There's two relevant things to note with lists like this - a) 20 lands and 8 4-drops makes us quite a bit more reliant on dorks, having our dorks killed will hurt a LOT more here than in normal Company. b) the overall card quality is lower than with Abzan - SSG is either broken or crap, and Vizier on it's own isn't a threat without a looming Nahiri ult (Abzan can Company into inf. life) which also makes Company slightly worse (and Nahiri ult should finish the game anyway) - Nahiri does make up for some of that obviously, but it's a real price to pay and to be aware of I feel. For better or worse, the deck seems faster, but also a lot more all-in than the normal Abzan or any Bant builds.
@Mindbender
Mindbender isn't a creature in regards for our sideboarding (not a Company hit, likely not chordable in any relevant situation), so I'm not the biggest fan. We have to have a lot of mana early as well as a sacrificial lamb. If we get there, I'm sure he's great, but I feel the deck is all about consistency and cheap effects, so I'd run another Sin Collector or somesuch if there's lots of combo and control around.
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
Just remember that you need double black for it when fetching.
Going turn 1 mana dork into turn 2 finks doesn't exactly win any games, especially not against things like valakut decks or tron. It's actually a really bad start.. But if you follow up with mindbender, you might actually have a chance. (either that or combo them quick.)
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Arbor Elf
1 Wall of Roots
4 Devoted Druid
3 Vizier of Remedies
1 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Walking Ballista
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
1 Viscera Seer
4 Eternal Witness
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Flickerwisp
1 Necrotic Ooze
4 Collected Company
4 Chord of Calling
Lands (22)
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Murmuring Bosk
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Brushland
3 Gavony Township
1 Rhonas, the Indomitable
3 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sin Collector
1 Distended Mindbender
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Spellskite
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
A few notes on my deckbuilding process later after sleep; first, match write-ups (or what I can remember after work):
Match 1: A on Death's Shadow Grixis (2-0): All I remember for this match is that I felt he was playing the control role way too much against me. Boarded out Arbor Elf, Wall of Roots, and I think Selfless Spirit for all three Path to Exile and possible Scavenging Ooze. Lots of removal and recursion, but not enough threats to keep me preoccupied, and his Tasigur barely helped if at all.
Match 2: C on Bant Knightfall (2-1): Game 1 I lost to plain better beats. Boarded out both Arbor Elf, Wall of Roots, and I believe Selfless Spirit for all three Path to Exile and the lone Linvala, Keeper of Silence. Game 2 I combo'd out (verifying in the process I had not boarded out my win-con), but Game 3 felt like a cheap win as he got absolutely mana-flooded with 3 Retreats on the field by the time I finished him with a 5/5 Caterpillar and a 2/2 Ballista.
Match 3: E on Eldrazi and Taxes (0-2): Same guy that I ID'd with in the last report, and, if I hadn't had to go to work early that night, I would have regret not getting matchup experience against him. I mean, nothing like Reality Smasher, Thoughtseize, Wasteland Strangler, Relic of Progenitus, Fatal Push to ruin a decent record. To make matters worse, I punted during siding and brought in Sin Collector and Distended Mindbender as well Spellskite. Needless to say, a single 5/5 trample haste makes quick work.
Match 4: C on UW Spirits (ID): Friend and Ride; ID for a total net gain of +$5 store credit between the two of us
So, yeah: any help with BW Eldrazi would be appreciated.
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
GWBAbzan CompanyBWG
GWBUGifts RockUBWG
Why run Necrotic Ooze? It's very situational and doesn't help us achieve the combo. It doesn't get hit by Coco and it's difficult to Chord for it. I would replace for a second Duskwatch Recruiter.
Also, why are you running Caustic Caterpillar and Arbor Elf? Even Wall of Roots seems odd. You want your 2 drop slots to be combo creatures (Vizier, Druid, Anafenza) or combo engines to dump your mana into (Duskwatch Recruiter). You should replace the Arbor Elf + Wall of Roots for Noble Hierarch.
Caustic Caterpillar should move to the SB (Unless you have a disgusting amount of artifacts in your meta). Speaking of SB, some of your choices seem odd. You don't have Burrenton-Forge Tender or Aven Mindcensor for Titanshift (one of our worst matchups). Why run Yixlid Jailer? Anafenza is leagues better against graveyard based creature decks. I've also never been a fan of Linvala as she doesn't get hit by Coco and seems way to narrow (it's good against the mirror, and maybe Eldrazi and Taxes - can't think of anything else I'd bring it in against).
Aegis of the Gods is another weird card choice. I'm assuming you bring this in against decks like Burn and Abzan. While on paper it seems to make sense, in practice it's not as good.
Against Abzan, your combo creatures will die no matter what, and they will typically only get 1-3 discard effects throughout a match - turn your dead creatures into 1/1 with deathtouch using Pharika, or play Mirran Crusader as a silver bullet against them.
Against Burn, we are already 50/50. No need to run Aegis of the Gods when it will just get searing blaze or searing blood.
If you are making these choices for budget reasons, then I totally understand, however my suggestions remain.
Here's my list for reference:
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Devoted Druid
2x Duskwatch Recruiter Flip
3x Eternal Witness
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Renegade Rallier
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Viscera Seer
4x Vizier of Remedies
1x Walking Ballista
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
Land (22)
3x Forest
2x Gavony Township
1x Godless Shrine
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
2x Razorverge Thicket
2x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Anafenza, the Foremost
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Orzhov Pontiff
3x Path to Exile
1x Pharika, God of Affliction
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Sin Collector
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
Caustic Caterpillar is ran for the sole reason that it is easier to Chord for in response to opponents casting Grafdigger's Cage than Qasali Pridemage, otherwise Pridemage would get the go ahead.
Arbor Elf and Wall of Roots ... while Noble Hierarch would be nice, I do not have the money for them or Horizonopy right now. However, I will still keep a 6-5 split between 1 CMC and 2 CMC dorks.
Yixlid Jailer is not there solely for Dredge; its ability works on non-creature cards as well, meaning it make Gifts Ungiven in Storm a lot worse. Granted, I have yet to play against any of the fast three (Storm, Afffinity, Dredge). with this current iteration, so maybe whether it works or not remains to be seen.
Linvala was a last minute addition, and ironically one I feel rhe most comfortable debating over.
Speaking of Titanshift, Aegis of the Gods is for that specific matchup; since all Valakut triggers go on the stack at once, you can, in response to them triggering PrimeTime, casting Hour of Promise, or casting Scapeshift, Chord for Aegis of the Gods, forcing all the triggers to target it and not you. Forge-tender may be an additional consideration though.
Finally, the elephant in the room; Spellskite is mostly there to protect hate pieces against various linear strategies.
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
See my responses in Red
RWG Burn
GW Abzan Company
So, changes for future iterations in the making:
-Drop from Main: 1 Necrotic Ooze, 2 Arbor Elf, 1 Caustic Caterpillar
-Add to Main: 2 Noble Hierarch, 2 Mimic Vat
-Drop from Side: 1 Distended Mindbender, 1 Yixlid Jailer, 2 Sin Collector
-Add to Side: 1 Anafenza the Foremost, 1 Caustic Caterpillar, 2 Aven Mindcensor
Mimic Vat can be replaced by virtually any recursion/reanimation effect (except Dusk /to/ Dawn; but that's because I have no idea how others are having success with that card), but I especially like Vat as a means to constantly pressure removal-heavy lists.
Only slot I'm debating other than that is Scavenging Ooze vs Pharika, God of Affliction; one provides chump blockers, the other is good against Snapcaster Mage and Eternal Witness engines.
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Viscera Seer
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Spellskite
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Eternal Witness
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Walking Ballista
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
Lands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Razorverge Thicket
3 Gavony Township
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Sin Collector
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
2 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender - Stops Anger of the Gods which is a blowout against us. Also good vs Burn, Pyroclasm, Whipflare, Lightning Storm, and others. Having the ability to chord for 1 in a pinch is necessary.
1 Selfless Spirit - Postboard people bring in more boardwipes. This is necessary to beat Damnation, Supreme Verdict, and Anger of the Gods because Spellskite can't. Game 1 people play more targeted removal so Skite is going to be better. Spirit can also let you block with your team and win on the swing back.
1 Scavenging Ooze - Game 1 I want to race decks, I have no time to try and hate out Dredge, Living End, Snapcaster, and the deck can already bury BGx in card advantage so it's not necessary. Bring it in vs. graveyard decks though.
1 Qasali Pridemage - Kills artifacts and enchantments.
1 Reclamation Sage - Same as above, but can be cast off of infinite green for when you need that to combo off.
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric - Stops Storm, Ad Nauseum, Living End, Seismic Swans, etc...
1 Aven Mindcensor - Messes up fetchalnds but also hates out Storm (gifts), Scapeshift and Primetime, and the odd homebrew combo deck.
1 Courser of Kruphix - Comes in vs midrange decks when we side out our manadorks. Helps us keep up playing lands, and is good vs. Burn too.
1 Sin Collector - Specifically for decks that play board wipes, but also comes in vs combo decks to disrupt them.
1 Orzhov Pontiff - vs the mirror, Elves, Affinity, Tokens, Hatebears, and any other small creature decks. Gotta get it off early before creatures get pumped though.
1 Pharika, God of Affliction - Grixis and Jund literally don't play a card that can remove this once in play. It makes a wall of snakes and wins the attrition game. Also good vs Junk but watch out for Path to Exile and Grixis control playing Cryptic.
2 Path to Exile - For killing things that must be killed. Usually hits Eldrazi or Death's Shadow/Tasigur. Everything else can be relatively ignored.
2 Abrupt Decay - For killing everything Path can't.
As for a sideboard guide, using the tier 1 decks from the site right now:
Burn:
+1 Burrenton Forge-Tender, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +1 Courser of Kruphix, +1 Sin Collector
-1 Viscera Seer, -1 Walking Ballista, -1 Rhonas the Indomitable, -1 Duskwatch Recruiter
You don't need to combo in this matchup, just stabilize. Kitchen Finks is your key, and with Vizier of Remedies you can create a wall that they can't attack through. Pretty much the rest of your sideboard is good against them too, but you don't bring stuff in because it's too situational (like enchantment hate for Eidolons). You can bring in removal though for their creatures and that's fine.
Storm:
+1 Eidolon of Rhetoric, +1 Aven Mindcensor, +1 Sin Collector, +2 Path to Exile, +2 Abrupt Decay
-1 Renegade Rallier, -1 Spellskite, -3 Kitchen Finks, -1 Collected Company, -1 Eternal Witness
This matchup is all about speed, and they are faster. I take out the Finks because yes you can win through infinite life, but its going to be too slow 90% of the time. Shave a Company because you bring in 4 noncreature spells as Electromancer and Baral have to be killed on sight or you're probably going to lose the next turn. I don't care about Rallier and EWit as much because they won't be killing a ton of our things outside of Bolts or a defensive Grapeshot. (These are all general btw, like if I'm on the draw I'd maybe keep in a skite since I'll be a turn slower and things like that. I'm not doing play/draw for each right now)
Affinity:
+1 Selfless Spirit, +1 Qasali Pridemage, +1 Reclamation Sage, +1 Orzhov Pontiff, +2 Abrupt Decay
-4 Kitchen Finks, -1 Rhonas the Indomitable, -1 Viscera Seer
Since they have infect you don't care about life much. They are so fast trying to pull off the infinite life combo to buy time is a bad idea. Instead look to gum up the ground until you can combo. Pridemange and RecSage are removal spells that also pay G for Chord of Calling so play those first then bring in more removal. Abrupt Decay is there to combat Cranial Plating among everything else, while you should bring in Path if you are more worried about their manlands.
Eldrazi Tron:
+1 Aven Mindcensor, +2 Path to Exile
-3 Kitchen Finks
This is a pretty rough matchup. You can bring in Mindcensor to slow them down getting Tron. Pharika slows down their huge creatures on the ground, but can still get exiled by Karn. She doesn't really cut it in the long run like against other decks. If they put a Chalice on X=2, or a Ratchet Bomb, then that blanks like half of your deck. All you can do is race them and get out the combo before they can do anything as you are much faster than them. You can bring in Selfless Spirit if you are really afraid of Ratchet Bomb, or Reclamation Sage if you see they are playing more removal than normal and think the game will go long enough to need to blow up a Chalice. I take out Finks because we can chump with other creatures and infinite life doesn't beat them. Seer is ok though as he scries for the combo and we need it as fast as possible. Try to win on T3/T4 if possible, after that you're going to have a hard time. You cna take the crazy person route and play this like its a Death's Shadow/Jund matchup but 9 times out of 10 you'll get overrun in the long game if you don't win by the early midgame.
Grixis Death's Shadow:
+1 Selfless Spirit, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +1 Courser of Kruphix, +1 Sin Collector, +1 Pharika, God of Affliction, +2 Path to Exile, +2 Abrupt Decay
-3 Noble Hierarch, -4 Birds of Paradise, -1 Chord of Calling, -1 Vizier of Remedies
Your hand is going to get ripped apart, your creatures are going to get removed, and there is very little you can do about it. I like to treat this matchup like Jund and just try to transition into a midrange deck and outvalue them while trying to combo only if it just seemingly happens. This may be a controversial way of doing it, but let me tell you that it works. The last thing you want to be doing is topecking manadorks so raising the overall card quality of our deck, coupled with the fact that we inherently have a bunch of 2-for-1's and Gavony Township to win the long game puts us in a pretty good spot. I cut a Chord instead of a Company even though the creature count is lowered because there isn't a huge need for silver-bullets in this matchup and the chance to get a 2-for-1 off of Company means you should play it. Watch out of people who tech Damantion though as it will wreck us.
Titanshift:
+1 Burrenton Forge-Tender, +1 Selfless Spirit, +1 Aven Mindcensor, +2 Path to Exile
-4 Kitchen Finks, -1 Viscera Seer
This is a bad matchup just because they have inevitability over us.... and Anger of the Gods... and Chalice of the Void.... and Engineered Explosives.... and Grafdigger’s Cage... yeah don't expect to last long. Have mana up for Burrenton Forge-Tender or Selfless Spirit whenever you can and just try to jam the combo while they are still ramping. +1 Aven Mindcensor messes up Prime Time, Summoner’s Pact, and Scapeshift so use it wisely. Path hits Primetime and for the love of god cast it before the ETB trigger resolves. Although the life combo does beat them I want to be fast as possible so I take it out. All you can do in this matchup is be faster because if you aren't then they're going to mop the floor with you.
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Hope that helps. If there is enough interest I can write some more sometime before the one in the primer is done. The difficult part though is the fact that everyones lists are slightly different. However it is always a good learning activity to hear peoples opinions on cards and choices.
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Viscera Seer
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Spellskite
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Eternal Witness
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Walking Ballista
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
+1 Burrenton Forge-Tender, +1 Selfless Spirit, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +1 Qasali Pridemage, +1 Reclamation Sage, +1 Eidolon of Rhetoric, +1 Aven Mindcensor, +1 Courser of Kruphix, +1 Sin Collector, +1 Orzhov Pontiff, +1 Pharika, God of Affliction, +2 Path to Exile, +2 Abrupt Decay
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
+1 Selfless Spirit, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +1 Courser of Kruphix, +1 Sin Collector, +1 Pharika, God of Affliction, +2 Path to Exile, +2 Abrupt Decay
-3 Noble Hierarch, -4 Birds of Paradise, -1 Chord of Calling, -1 Vizier of Remedies
They do often have Damnation as the only board clear so Selfless Spirit or Sin Collector are going to be your only outs to that. They also have Path to Exile (or some really weird Liliana of the Veil activation) to remove Pharika so be aware of that. Kitchen Finks is a bit worse because you're facing Path, but if they're removing them it will probably give you some room to assemble to combo and win. Don't be afraid to take the matcups a little slower, because you know you will outvalue them in the long game. Also make sure to win 100% of the time to really run home who the better GBW deck is.
Against Jund I'd look to do pretty much the same but also bring in Burrenton Forge-Tender to combat Anger. Honestly Aven Mindcensor can be good too as they play a lot of fetches and can get caught by it.
I'm also eyeing Shapers' Sanctuary as a sideboard card. It could absolutely wreck UWR, Jund, Junk, Grixis, etc... but I don't think there is a huge problem against those decks.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge