In a removal-heavy meta, should I just forego the druid package?
No. Druid package is what makes the deck tick imho.
Just picked up the deck yesterday and played a few games on MTGO.
Played Grixis Shadow twice and got smashed both times (kolaghan's command is no joke), was wondering the same... whether to just ditch most the combo?
Maybe add a couple of Spellskites in the SB?
What's the usual plan against this type of deck?
My opinion wouldn't be to ditch the combo as this is one of the main wincons. I've opted to play selfless spirit in the main. With an additional one in the sideboard. This has been quite successful against sweepers, although does need a longer gameplan.
I've also been trilling mirror entity in the main and this prevented two board wipes in testing last night.
Also, with renegade rallier and eternal witness you have the means of getting the combo pieces back (unless the opponent manages to Path all 4 druids!)
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Cheeri0s is the breakfast of championsWRU Everyone loves an angry mobRWG Why so Bloo?RU
What's everyone's thoughts going into the weekend?
I'm going to roll with Abzan Company this weekend, but I'm expecting a ton of hate and mirror matches.
I'm throwing a few ideas around:
1) Just combo. Focus on this and responding to any targeted hate well.
2) Transformative sideboard; the idea would be to bring in value creatures and side out the Chords/Company. So many folks are bringing in cages and/or instant/sorcery hate that blanking this could be viable. They will also lose tempo while holding up removal/counters for combo pieces / CoCo; so you'll gain a tempo advantage while dropping effeciently costed threats. This would also allow Gaddock Teeg as a sideboard card in the mirror.
I'm just mulling on #2; but since this deck is now a known quantity that every other deck is dedicated sideboard slots to, it could be worthy of merit.
Or I could be crazy. I'll probably just stick with Plan A; but I'm definitely going to test #2 before the weekend.
From personal experience I'd stick to option 1.. remaining as streamlined as possible post board and bringing hate for the anticipated hate cards has worked best. In regards to the mirror Linvala, Pontiff and Paths + minimal disruption over MD recursion has done the trick.
From personal experience I'd stick to option 1.. remaining as streamlined as possible post board and bringing hate for the anticipated hate cards has worked best. In regards to the mirror Linvala, Pontiff and Paths + minimal disruption over MD recursion has done the trick.
What is your current list and sideboard like? I think I've got my 60 sorted; but sideboard is up in the air.
Spellskite vs. koala command deck is bad. Do not do that. mirror entity is good vs. grixis, rhonas is great.
Selfless spirit is ok, auriok champion is great (they literally can do nothing about it).
Your main goal is to resolve coco, and township finks should mostly be your plan since they interact too much to combo easily, but you still have to threaten the combo.
This is a match I would sideboard a reveillark in if you have one since they have very little chance of beating it and match is likely to go long. You can also board in some removal spells.
What's everyone's thoughts going into the weekend?
I'm going to roll with Abzan Company this weekend, but I'm expecting a ton of hate and mirror matches.
I'm throwing a few ideas around:
1) Just combo. Focus on this and responding to any targeted hate well.
2) Transformative sideboard; the idea would be to bring in value creatures and side out the Chords/Company. So many folks are bringing in cages and/or instant/sorcery hate that blanking this could be viable. They will also lose tempo while holding up removal/counters for combo pieces / CoCo; so you'll gain a tempo advantage while dropping effeciently costed threats. This would also allow Gaddock Teeg as a sideboard card in the mirror.
I'm just mulling on #2; but since this deck is now a known quantity that every other deck is dedicated sideboard slots to, it could be worthy of merit.
Or I could be crazy. I'll probably just stick with Plan A; but I'm definitely going to test #2 before the weekend.
I would stick with plan A. My current sideboard plan is 2 pridemage/1 rec sage, in for the worst mana dorks or eternal witnesses depending on the matchup (dorks in slow matches, witness in fast matches).
I have not had any problems overloading people's removal and forcing the combo as long as I can keep grave hate off the table.
Round 1 vs Affinity 2-1
Really glad I had a pridemage main board as it enabled me to get rid of an artifact, play a rallier and ping another one. I eventually found infinite mana combo on turn 5 and won first game. Second game I got overran by a single ornithopter with 3 cranial platings attached. Third game found infinite life combo when I had 3 health left.
Round 2 vs Blue Tron 1-1
Game 1 my opponent prevented me from chording for Druid for three turns and then used mindslaver and academy ruins to win the game. Game 2 I'm really glad I didn't sideboard out walking ballista because my opponent played a platinum angel on turn 3 and I found infinite mana combo two turns later.
Round 3 vs Mono White hatebears 2-0
First game ended fairly quickly as I had a really good hand and found the infinite mana combo and used mirror entity to swing for lethal. Second game went on for ages, with my opponent locking both of us out from doing anything. Due to numerous Paths I had a flooded board and it was eventually Gavony Township (returned from the grave for the third time due to ghost quarters) that won me the game.
Round 4 vs Burn 2-1
First game kept a sketchy hand but found infinite life combo when on 2 health. Second game kept another sketchy hand and got annihilated. Third game I used a selfless spirit twice to prevent boardwipe from anger of the gods, then used mirror entity on their third attempt and won without finding a combo.
Still didn't see the full value from renegade rallier, but have just received some horizon canopies so will keep them in the deck. Several times I really wanted a KotR and either township/wolf run so will try this combination out. I think keeping at least one township in the deck is vital otherwise our fragile sideboard cards (phyrexian revoker, tidehollow sculler) are more susceptible to spot removal and can be turned into beatdown creatures after a few turns.
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Cheeri0s is the breakfast of championsWRU Everyone loves an angry mobRWG Why so Bloo?RU
Your list is very close to mine. I'm still not totally sold on Mirror Entity, but otherwise we're almost 100% on the same page.
What are you finding is the selling point for Mirror Entity?
Renegade Rallier is a huge value play in my experience. He's super versatile and works well with Gavony Township for the Plan B Beatdown.
The most common Rallier plays for me:
T2 Crack a fetch; play rallier, recur that fetch. End T2 with 3 lands, a dork, and a 3/2 creature on board; leaving you with 5 pieces for a T3 chord for a Druid.
Crack a fetch before running out a Collected Company, recovering a piece of the combo that's eaten removal.
Killing my own druid in response to an Exile effect and recurring him immediately after with Recruiter, using mana the druid himself produced.
Do not forget to fill your druid with -1/-1 counters in response to Path to Exile. We need the Druid in the GY more often than land most of the time. This triggers revolt, and makes it so you can get your Druid with Eternal Witness or Rallier. I've played the mirror match, and so many people miss this minor interaction.
I've also made the fringe play of Saccing Viscera Seer to himself to trigger revolt on Renegade Rallier to recur a ghost-quartered Gavony Township.
I have rallied druid back using similar lines to Walked many times. I run 4 ralliers so they are more common, but a common line for me is to rally a fetch back then save it to enable a second rallier. I have chained ralliers into 6 lands on turn 4 a few times and it's pretty backbreaking in some matchups to be so far ahead on mana.
Mirror entity just excels in unfair games and the mirror. The mirror can't really beat mirror entity when playing fair, it's much stronger than Rhonas.
It's also great against anything playing burn spells for removal or anger. Once an entity is on board with 4 mana up, anger is dead. with 3 mana up pyroclasm is dead, with 2 mana up pontiff is dead.
SCG Baltimore this weekend. How much do we expect Vizier Company mirrors all day long? Is this something that I'll probably be able to skirt; or should I expect to run into several times? I'm leaning towards "expect it, but not more than once or twice" but I'm not sure how real the hype is right now.
Your list is very close to mine. I'm still not totally sold on Mirror Entity, but otherwise we're almost 100% on the same page.
What are you finding is the selling point for Mirror Entity?
Renegade Rallier is a huge value play in my experience. He's super versatile and works well with Gavony Township for the Plan B Beatdown.
The most common Rallier plays for me:
T2 Crack a fetch; play rallier, recur that fetch. End T2 with 3 lands, a dork, and a 3/2 creature on board; leaving you with 5 pieces for a T3 chord for a Druid.
Crack a fetch before running out a Collected Company, recovering a piece of the combo that's eaten removal.
Killing my own druid in response to an Exile effect and recurring him immediately after with Recruiter, using mana the druid himself produced.
Do not forget to fill your druid with -1/-1 counters in response to Path to Exile. We need the Druid in the GY more often than land most of the time. This triggers revolt, and makes it so you can get your Druid with Eternal Witness or Rallier. I've played the mirror match, and so many people miss this minor interaction.
I've also made the fringe play of Saccing Viscera Seer to himself to trigger revolt on Renegade Rallier to recur a ghost-quartered Gavony Township.
As you've (and Pokken) pointed out there are numerous scenarios where rallier is important/vital. However, most of the time I've done what you've talked about I have almost always preferred a witness to a rallier. Specifically when hitting off CoCo.... I think more playing time for me will make me see the benefits of keeping at least 2 in the deck. Particularly if I start playing KotR!
In regards to mirror entity; I recently played a tournament with Rhonas, and although Rhonas was great and won me 2 games I ended up losing 3 games where mirror entity could have saved me. And, could've still won me the games that Rhonas did. I find it is versatile in that it can protect your creatures from spot removal, board wipes (damage related), can make your blocker formidable while ensuring they don't die and also with the mana combo making your creatures X/X. The major downside is that it doesn't cost green, has a smaller body, isn't indestructible and doesn't give trample. That's why I will play kessig wolf run, why I run selfless spirit main and have numerous cards to get stuff back from the graveyard.
So far in my testing I prefer mirror entity but I'm open to other people's arguments for or against.
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Cheeri0s is the breakfast of championsWRU Everyone loves an angry mobRWG Why so Bloo?RU
It's a cool interaction, but now we have two pieces of a combo that are relatively easily removed and vulnerable to summoning sickness (e.g The T2 Druid -> T3 Quillspike sits vulnerable for a whole turn after). In my opinion it seems a bit slow. Wouldnt be a bad pair to hit off a Collected Company EoT, I suppose - but it seems to narrow relative to the other combos available.
From personal experience I'd stick to option 1.. remaining as streamlined as possible post board and bringing hate for the anticipated hate cards has worked best. In regards to the mirror Linvala, Pontiff and Paths + minimal disruption over MD recursion has done the trick.
What is your current list and sideboard like? I think I've got my 60 sorted; but sideboard is up in the air.
This is my current 75 post play testing last night. The only cards I'm currently looking to potentially slot in the board would be a 2nd Tireless Tracker for Grindier MUs and a Stony Silence to back up Kataki just as cross hate for Ad Naus, Tron Variants. Other than that I'm pretty set on everything else.
It is a subtle change but the combo density and mana increase in the deck increases the value of collected company and eternal witness. I've tried to explain this a few times and fell short but coco is a much better card in the new deck so getting another swing at it s more valuable.
In the abzan version your odds of assembling a combo off coco-witness-X-untap-coco is extraordinarily high. Far higher than it used to be.
That plus witness acting as a combo piece with an expended chord or dead recruiter or whatever is too much.\
It's good enough I would consider shaving to 3 finks before shaving a witness.
What's the general sideboard plan against U-Tron? Do we lump it in with the other Tron decks and board grind out to race, or board more grind in as if it's a control deck? It's oddly popular at my LGS (usually 2 or 3 people playing it out of 30) and I never really know what to do. There's a version playing Elder Deep-Fiend that's especially weird to me.
No. Druid package is what makes the deck tick imho.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Just picked up the deck yesterday and played a few games on MTGO.
Played Grixis Shadow twice and got smashed both times (kolaghan's command is no joke), was wondering the same... whether to just ditch most the combo?
Maybe add a couple of Spellskites in the SB?
What's the usual plan against this type of deck?
I've also been trilling mirror entity in the main and this prevented two board wipes in testing last night.
Also, with renegade rallier and eternal witness you have the means of getting the combo pieces back (unless the opponent manages to Path all 4 druids!)
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
I'm going to roll with Abzan Company this weekend, but I'm expecting a ton of hate and mirror matches.
I'm throwing a few ideas around:
1) Just combo. Focus on this and responding to any targeted hate well.
2) Transformative sideboard; the idea would be to bring in value creatures and side out the Chords/Company. So many folks are bringing in cages and/or instant/sorcery hate that blanking this could be viable. They will also lose tempo while holding up removal/counters for combo pieces / CoCo; so you'll gain a tempo advantage while dropping effeciently costed threats. This would also allow Gaddock Teeg as a sideboard card in the mirror.
I'm just mulling on #2; but since this deck is now a known quantity that every other deck is dedicated sideboard slots to, it could be worthy of merit.
Or I could be crazy. I'll probably just stick with Plan A; but I'm definitely going to test #2 before the weekend.
What is your current list and sideboard like? I think I've got my 60 sorted; but sideboard is up in the air.
Selfless spirit is ok, auriok champion is great (they literally can do nothing about it).
Your main goal is to resolve coco, and township finks should mostly be your plan since they interact too much to combo easily, but you still have to threaten the combo.
This is a match I would sideboard a reveillark in if you have one since they have very little chance of beating it and match is likely to go long. You can also board in some removal spells.
I would stick with plan A. My current sideboard plan is 2 pridemage/1 rec sage, in for the worst mana dorks or eternal witnesses depending on the matchup (dorks in slow matches, witness in fast matches).
I have not had any problems overloading people's removal and forcing the combo as long as I can keep grave hate off the table.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
4 birds of paradise
3 arbor elf
1 viscera seer
3 eternal witness
2 renegade rallier
3 kitchen finks
4 devoted Druid
4 vizier of remedies
1 mirror entity
1 walking ballista
1 selfless spirit
1 Qasali pridemage
4 chord of calling
4 collected company
Land
4 windswept Heath
3 marsh flats
2 flooded strand
3 temple garden
1 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
2 Gavony township
4 forest
1 plains
1 Razorverge thicket
2 path to exile
1 maelstrom pulse
1 phyrexian revoker
1 ehtersworn canoeist
1 Kataki
1 burrenton forge tender
1 Qasali pridemage
1 orzhov pontiff
1 Aven mindcensor
1 vexing shusher
1 Selfless spirit
3 Tidehollow sculler
Round 1 vs Affinity 2-1
Really glad I had a pridemage main board as it enabled me to get rid of an artifact, play a rallier and ping another one. I eventually found infinite mana combo on turn 5 and won first game. Second game I got overran by a single ornithopter with 3 cranial platings attached. Third game found infinite life combo when I had 3 health left.
Round 2 vs Blue Tron 1-1
Game 1 my opponent prevented me from chording for Druid for three turns and then used mindslaver and academy ruins to win the game. Game 2 I'm really glad I didn't sideboard out walking ballista because my opponent played a platinum angel on turn 3 and I found infinite mana combo two turns later.
Round 3 vs Mono White hatebears 2-0
First game ended fairly quickly as I had a really good hand and found the infinite mana combo and used mirror entity to swing for lethal. Second game went on for ages, with my opponent locking both of us out from doing anything. Due to numerous Paths I had a flooded board and it was eventually Gavony Township (returned from the grave for the third time due to ghost quarters) that won me the game.
Round 4 vs Burn 2-1
First game kept a sketchy hand but found infinite life combo when on 2 health. Second game kept another sketchy hand and got annihilated. Third game I used a selfless spirit twice to prevent boardwipe from anger of the gods, then used mirror entity on their third attempt and won without finding a combo.
Conclusions
Really liked the value that both mirror entity and walking ballista added. Plus adding selfles spirit and qasali pridemage in the main seemed a good call.
Still didn't see the full value from renegade rallier, but have just received some horizon canopies so will keep them in the deck. Several times I really wanted a KotR and either township/wolf run so will try this combination out. I think keeping at least one township in the deck is vital otherwise our fragile sideboard cards (phyrexian revoker, tidehollow sculler) are more susceptible to spot removal and can be turned into beatdown creatures after a few turns.
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
What are you finding is the selling point for Mirror Entity?
Renegade Rallier is a huge value play in my experience. He's super versatile and works well with Gavony Township for the Plan B Beatdown.
The most common Rallier plays for me:
T2 Crack a fetch; play rallier, recur that fetch. End T2 with 3 lands, a dork, and a 3/2 creature on board; leaving you with 5 pieces for a T3 chord for a Druid.
Crack a fetch before running out a Collected Company, recovering a piece of the combo that's eaten removal.
Killing my own druid in response to an Exile effect and recurring him immediately after with Recruiter, using mana the druid himself produced.
Do not forget to fill your druid with -1/-1 counters in response to Path to Exile. We need the Druid in the GY more often than land most of the time. This triggers revolt, and makes it so you can get your Druid with Eternal Witness or Rallier. I've played the mirror match, and so many people miss this minor interaction.
I've also made the fringe play of Saccing Viscera Seer to himself to trigger revolt on Renegade Rallier to recur a ghost-quartered Gavony Township.
Mirror entity just excels in unfair games and the mirror. The mirror can't really beat mirror entity when playing fair, it's much stronger than Rhonas.
It's also great against anything playing burn spells for removal or anger. Once an entity is on board with 4 mana up, anger is dead. with 3 mana up pyroclasm is dead, with 2 mana up pontiff is dead.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
SCG Baltimore this weekend. How much do we expect Vizier Company mirrors all day long? Is this something that I'll probably be able to skirt; or should I expect to run into several times? I'm leaning towards "expect it, but not more than once or twice" but I'm not sure how real the hype is right now.
As you've (and Pokken) pointed out there are numerous scenarios where rallier is important/vital. However, most of the time I've done what you've talked about I have almost always preferred a witness to a rallier. Specifically when hitting off CoCo.... I think more playing time for me will make me see the benefits of keeping at least 2 in the deck. Particularly if I start playing KotR!
In regards to mirror entity; I recently played a tournament with Rhonas, and although Rhonas was great and won me 2 games I ended up losing 3 games where mirror entity could have saved me. And, could've still won me the games that Rhonas did. I find it is versatile in that it can protect your creatures from spot removal, board wipes (damage related), can make your blocker formidable while ensuring they don't die and also with the mana combo making your creatures X/X. The major downside is that it doesn't cost green, has a smaller body, isn't indestructible and doesn't give trample. That's why I will play kessig wolf run, why I run selfless spirit main and have numerous cards to get stuff back from the graveyard.
So far in my testing I prefer mirror entity but I'm open to other people's arguments for or against.
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
WUBRGCoco/Vial Slivers
WUBRGSlivers of the Void
Pioneer
WUBRGCoco Slivers
Legacy
WUBRGAll in Slivers
It's a cool interaction, but now we have two pieces of a combo that are relatively easily removed and vulnerable to summoning sickness (e.g The T2 Druid -> T3 Quillspike sits vulnerable for a whole turn after). In my opinion it seems a bit slow. Wouldnt be a bad pair to hit off a Collected Company EoT, I suppose - but it seems to narrow relative to the other combos available.
This is my current 75 post play testing last night. The only cards I'm currently looking to potentially slot in the board would be a 2nd Tireless Tracker for Grindier MUs and a Stony Silence to back up Kataki just as cross hate for Ad Naus, Tron Variants. Other than that I'm pretty set on everything else.
1x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Devoted Druid
2x Duskwatch Recruiter
4x Eternal Witness
1x Fiend Hunter
4x Kitchen Finks
2x Noble Hierarch
1x Spellskite
2x Viscera Seer
4x Vizier of Remedies
1x Walking Ballista
2x Forest
2x Gavony Township
1x Godless Shrine
3x Horizon Canopy
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
Instant (8)
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Orzhov Pontiff
3x Path to Exile
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
3x Tidehollow Sculler
1x Tireless Tracker
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
In the abzan version your odds of assembling a combo off coco-witness-X-untap-coco is extraordinarily high. Far higher than it used to be.
That plus witness acting as a combo piece with an expended chord or dead recruiter or whatever is too much.\
It's good enough I would consider shaving to 3 finks before shaving a witness.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Try to stack a T3 EoT Company into another company next turn before they have Tron online.
Thats generally been my most successful path.