What about bloodright invoker as a finisher? it can be hit with company and chords and also be used at instant speed?
Good idea. Right now I'm using Rhonas as a finisher and I find it super relevant that with Invoker you can win whenever you want, while with Rhonas you need to go through combat.
I think that a stock build should have nothing to do with either Rhonas or Walking Ballista but rather the Spike Feeder combo which can be assembled easily when you gain infinite mana. In testing it has been really good.
I'm a big ThuneFeeder fan. But the thing is, Rhonas (or Invoker) is just 1 slot while ThuneFeeder is 2 slots, plus, Thune makes CoCos worse and Feeder sucks on its own. So I think I'd rather play Rhonas and/or Invoker than ThuneFeeder.
Abzan Company Dev/Viz 2.0[/url] here's my current version of the deck. As you can see I'm on 22 lands, and so far it has not been a problem.
I'm also on 22 lands with 11/12 dorks and find it allright. Actually I flood more often than I mana screw. That's why I was asking. I feel there's no need to play 23 lands now that we run so many dorks.
Yeah I agree. My issue now is that I would really like a Scavenging Ooze mainboard, but I'm not really sure what to remove...
Thanks for the reply guys. I agree with Torph regarding the seer finks vizier combo as a backup combo plan. I would totally drop anafenza and just bring in one seer. That would open up slots. Also not sure if i would be running more than 10 dorks. I think 12 is too much since we can combo very fast even without dorks turn one. I also agree on regarding eternal witness. It acts as a combo piece with infinite mana online and get chord in the yard. I am also testing courser of kruphix. It acts as a card advantage, filters draws, gains life in one card. @ torpf can you please your list. Thanks
I'm trying out a very focused G1 combo list an dork heavy tonight. I will type something up more detailed and reply to everyone with my thoughts on various cards once I am home. I want to see how "threat-light" we can make some lists. I am also cutting a lot of the flexible cards (such as courser) that give way to cornercase wins. I don't think they're needed in the long run. This list will be more focused on drawing a Company or Chord, but once it does it should find a win very fast. Will be back in a few hours.
That's what I suggested few pages back. Elves is currently my petdeck and there are some rules applying to both decks: be as fast as possible G1.
Eagerly awaiting your results @Torpf. My own results thus far have pretty strongly suggested faster is better right now, so I'm all on board with this. We just cannot afford to durdle with midrange value critters that don't protect or enable the combo right now.
Wooooooowie tonight was a trainwreck! Nothing seemed to be going well at all. Played 4 rounds, and in Round 1 I never saw a Chord in both games even though I had infinite mana for several turns. Couldn't do anything with it. Round 2 was vs Jund and just became a Finks + Gavony Township grindfest that eventually ended in me getting a Company to land on the combo. We were both about 2/3rds through our decks at this point. Round 3 I had like 8 manadorks in play, no Township and couldn't even beat down to win. And Round 4 was against a Grixis control deck that went the same way as Round 2. The deck did literally everything it's not supposed to tonight. It's frustrating, but I guess it goes that way sometimes. The list I was using for reference:
I tried to make a list that was super focused game 1. It has the 7 manadorks for a ~60% chance of drawing one in your opener. Manadorks range from often to always drawing removal to them early game which is also what I wanted. Draw out the removal so that they would be gassed later in the game. The same is true for Devoted Druid. Opponents were removing it as soon as they could. I did like these numbers of dorks but the biggest thing was that I felt I was being flooded in all my games by them. Either I had 5-6 lands in play and one dork, or 2-3 lands in play, 4 dorks, and not Township. It was really disproportionate all night and really sucked. Takeaways; the speed and consistency of these manadorks was unparalleled, but the opponents could ignore the dorks and focus on payoff cards like Collected Company (if I ever actually drew it...) so in practice the dorks seemed irrelevant.
You might be thinking, "But Torpf, you don't have a Walking Ballista or Rhonas the Indomitable?" This is because I was trying to make the deck very compact. Once I had infinite mana I could either chain Collected Companies or use a single Chord of Calling to a Duskwatch Recruiter into pay. From there I can draw all of the green creatures in my deck, get X nongreen creatures where X is the number of Eternal Witnesses I have left to play (only need two for Viscera Seer and Anafenza) or alternatively because you can see you deck just use a Collected Company to assemble the 'old' combo and put infinite +1/+1 counters on my creatures. The reason I built the list this way is to free up two slots from Walking Ballista and Rhonas the Indomitable. They are 'freed' because Anafenza acts as a combo piece on her own, helps create a wall of Kitchen Finks, and is in general a good creature on the beatdown. Overall she is more flexible and offers more to the deck than the other two aforementioned cards. There was never a situation in which I couldn't have won without this method of infinite damage. I am sure they will come up, but I have some ideas of future iterations of the deck to protect against it.
Keeping in the old combo allows me to play Kitchen Finks which is an insane value engine against any fair deck in the format. They destroy burn. The single handedly won games vs Grixis and Jund today. They are too good to drop I feel. The only thing I can see reducing them for is a Voice of Resurgence + Renegade Rallier package which I will talk about next.
One of, if not the biggest faults of my list I felt was that it didn't have the raw power or card quality to compete with other decks in the format. Yes it was blazingly fast; but if it didn't have a good Collected Company hit on Turn 3/4 or a Chord in hand to win on turn 3 then it would just fold to itself. Looking at the pieces on it's own they are all terrible (which is how the deck has always kinda been, but more so now). I was finding my options for Eternal Witnesses were... lands and Hierarchs... This was partly due to the fact that I was drawing like crap and partly due to the fact that the deck was diluted by so many small too-weak-on-their-own cards. The power of the deck was Kitchen Finks, which is fine, but I wasn't having any decisive wins. It was more like a "30 minute maybe I'll win" type thing which is not where we want to be in the deck.
Yes the 3 Razorverge Thicket should be 3 Horizon Canopies. Maybe if I didn't spend so many resources foiling out the deck I could have some by now. They are coming. When they do eventually get added I am eagerly looking at a the interaction of Courser of Kruphix + Horizon Canopy. Normally with infinite G mana and a Duskwatch Recruiter you can't cast nongreen creatures from your deck if you don't already have a Chord in the graveyard for Witness. With an infinite Duskwatch Recruiter you can get and play the Courser of Kruphix, then with either an infinite Duskwatch Recruiter or Viscera Seer you can use a Horizon Canopy still in your deck to get an extra draw for the turn. With the trigger on the stack you then flip through your deck until a Chord (or good Company) is on top. Let the trigger resolve to draw it, and then use it with all of the Witnesses you also drew. This is a corner case, but it can probably come up a few times and win some games. It may also be relevant if you have some nongreen hatecards you absolutely need to play before comboing off (ie: get rid of a Rest in Peace, Kalitas, Phyrexian Revoker naming Ballista or Rhonas, etc...)
Because I felt bad about not having raw power in the deck, I was kinda thinking of the Voice of Resurgence + Renegade Rallier package as maindeck material. Right now plan A is to combo asap game 1 and move into a more midragey role if need be games 2 and 3. The list I played did not have the ability to pressure the opponent and still have an "oops I won" feel to it. I really did nothing, didn't interact, and then tried to win through the slew of whatever removal they had. At this point with manadorks and other bad cards having HUGE targets on their heads it kinda makes sense to try and just beat down the opponent in the first game and happen to assemble the combo if it comes up. After tonight this seems like a better idea on paper, so I will test it out tomorrow. It also has a more Splinter Twin feel to me. This will be my next approach at the deck.
I played 22 lands because that is what I like. Without Horizon Canopies I like having less lands, and with 11 manadorks in total there is no real problem getting there. If you can run the Canopies then I would suggest 23 lands, but anywhere in this range is going to work.
Being almost purely GW felt really good on the manabase. You don't have to acknowledge the black game 1 if you don't want to, and it is there games 2 and 3 if you need it. After playing with it today I would remove the 1 Swamp, and maybe the 1 Godless Shrine for 1 Overgrown Tomb (or Temple Garden??) and 1 Forest.
If I am moving to a more Voice of Resurgence oriented build and looking to pressure the opponent then I will add in a Rhonas. I think he is better than Ballista in the sole fact that you can hit him off of Company. Wiffing sucks, and I did a lot of that tonight.
I only want 1 Viscera Seer. I don't know what I was thinking with 2. I guess it's ok since I was only playing one win condition, but people scoop before I did it anyway haha.
So in summary of my ramblings: Deck is fast, but relies very heavily on resolving a Company or Chord. If you cannot then the deck seemed to almost collapse. Again this was one night with some bad draws so I need to play it way way way more until I am sure. Before the new combo people were beginning to lean back towards some big value creatures (I'm looking at you Tireless Tracker) so that may be the way to go again. Just left a bad taste in my mouth after tonight.
So there are my very tired ramblings about my list. I need some sleep, but I said I'd post something so here it is. Sorry in advance for any spelling mistakes I may have missed. I will post what I am going to tweak the list to in the morning when I can focus a bit better.
My thoughts for being faster: cut unnecessary cards in the deck and get more of your win-cards in:
Cut the Scooze, go to 6 dorks (you don't need much black so 3-3 split), get in finishers, up the Duskwatch (even can see 4). You don't need the swamp, get 4 Horizon Canopies. This is the maindeck I will test. Not sure on the sideboard, if it is heavy with black discard I can see for 1 Swamp maindeck but as it is right now I think going GWb with just a little black is the best for the deck
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
The deck performed really well than I expected. I could have won more than 1/3 of my games on turn 3 if my opponent cannot interact with my board.
Here are my thoughts on the deck:
1. Turn one mana dork is not necessary for winning early in the game. You can play tapped land first turn, then play devoted druid second turn and have infinite mana on the third turn. Playing turn 3 Coco is also very possible with turn 2 devoted druid in play. So I think we can reduce one mana dorks to 6 or maybe even less. As of now I am happy of having 6 with (4 birds and 2 Noble). Not sure about getting 3/3 or 2/4 in favor of noble but I like having birds as blockers for flying.
2. Glad to keep the infinite life combo with finks and seer. Finks is an all-star for aggro matchups. This combo won me a few games
3. Only 1 Visera Seer is enough. No need for 2.
4. I totally dropped anafenza as infinite bolster is not necessary to win the game. Once you have infinite life and scrys, you can just get the primary (infinite mana) combo and win. One can argue that she is also a combo piece but she is just meh on her own.
5. I am not sure about Rhonas. It has won me a turn early but could have won back the following turn. I think it is still pretty relevant especially if the opponent plays sweepers (Tron, Anger, Wrath). I also prefer it to walking ballista as it can be hit with Coco.
6. Currently I am happy with just 2 Duskwatch not sure if I can cut it down to 1. It is just a 2/2 bear against aggro decks and really mana intensive to play mid game. It is valuable only in the late game. Often I got Chord in hand when I have infinite mana or I can cast it from the yard with an eternal witness in hand. Can also search it with Coco so I think 2 maybe the right number.
7. Really liked the 2 Courser, 1 tracker package. This gave card advantage and eventually drew my combo pieces. Courser is very good against aggro and grindy matchups. It can block, gains life, filters draw, helps with mana. Just save a fetch and if I do not want the top of the deck, just crack the fetch and get another draw.
8. 3 Eternal Witness is a good number. Acts as a combo piece most of the time with Chord in the graveyard. I do not want to go less than 2. With regards to Eternal witness and renegade rallier, I would rather put the 4th Witness in favor of the Rallier. Rallier is either a hit or a miss, but with eternal witness it will always bring value. It can bring back Coco which Rallier can't.
9. I am happy of having 22 lands. I would also consider dropping swamp in favor of something else like Canopies/Ghost quarter/Gavony township.
With all due respect to your "faster is better" stance, I am both encountering a large amount of control decks when I go to bigger tournaments in my area AND have been struggling with consistently presenting threats in longer games.
I am actually cuttin down to 5 mana dorks in the 1 mana slot because my issue is rarely having enough mana to do stuff and more often running out of things to do that are relevant in a given game.
Same argument goes for 22 vs 23 lands.
5 Dorks is too little. The point of the deck is to have a mana accelerant to get out a 3-drop on turn 2 (less so now) but also to hit a Company on Turn 3. If you are going to be missing the turn 1 dork in about half your games what will you be doing on turn 1? Almost all of our 2-drop slot does nothing on its own so you will be playing nothing T1 and esentally doing nothing T2. That's going to spell doom against the format.
I think that a stock build should have nothing to do with either Rhonas or Walking Ballista but rather the Spike Feeder combo which can be assembled easily when you gain infinite mana. In testing it has been really good.
Everything is equally easy to cast once you have infinite green and the right cards. There is no argument for including Anglethune except for personal preference. My personal preference is that time will show that it is not quite good enough, just like it did with older lists.
Now I'm going to fit in a Bloodrite Invoker. It's going to replace either a Noble Hierarch, either a Viscera Seer.
Replace a Seer. The old combo isn't essential, but is nice to have. Seer can hide in the deck until you need him and he is useful against Living End and stuff. He;s just not that necessary anymore though.
Thanks for the reply guys. I agree with Torph regarding the seer finks vizier combo as a backup combo plan. I would totally drop anafenza and just bring in one seer. That would open up slots. Also not sure if i would be running more than 10 dorks. I think 12 is too much since we can combo very fast even without dorks turn one. I also agree on regarding eternal witness. It acts as a combo piece with infinite mana online and get chord in the yard. I am also testing courser of kruphix. It acts as a card advantage, filters draws, gains life in one card. @ torpf can you please your list. Thanks
I'm trying out a very focused G1 combo list an dork heavy tonight. I will type something up more detailed and reply to everyone with my thoughts on various cards once I am home. I want to see how "threat-light" we can make some lists. I am also cutting a lot of the flexible cards (such as courser) that give way to cornercase wins. I don't think they're needed in the long run. This list will be more focused on drawing a Company or Chord, but once it does it should find a win very fast. Will be back in a few hours.
That's what I suggested few pages back. Elves is currently my petdeck and there are some rules applying to both decks: be as fast as possible G1.
Eagerly awaiting your results @Torpf. My own results thus far have pretty strongly suggested faster is better right now, so I'm all on board with this. We just cannot afford to durdle with midrange value critters that don't protect or enable the combo right now.
Wooooooowie tonight was a trainwreck! Nothing seemed to be going well at all. Played 4 rounds, and in Round 1 I never saw a Chord in both games even though I had infinite mana for several turns. Couldn't do anything with it. Round 2 was vs Jund and just became a Finks + Gavony Township grindfest that eventually ended in me getting a Company to land on the combo. We were both about 2/3rds through our decks at this point. Round 3 I had like 8 manadorks in play, no Township and couldn't even beat down to win. And Round 4 was against a Grixis control deck that went the same way as Round 2. The deck did literally everything it's not supposed to tonight. It's frustrating, but I guess it goes that way sometimes. The list I was using for reference:
I tried to make a list that was super focused game 1. It has the 7 manadorks for a ~60% chance of drawing one in your opener. Manadorks range from often to always drawing removal to them early game which is also what I wanted. Draw out the removal so that they would be gassed later in the game. The same is true for Devoted Druid. Opponents were removing it as soon as they could. I did like these numbers of dorks but the biggest thing was that I felt I was being flooded in all my games by them. Either I had 5-6 lands in play and one dork, or 2-3 lands in play, 4 dorks, and not Township. It was really disproportionate all night and really sucked. Takeaways; the speed and consistency of these manadorks was unparalleled, but the opponents could ignore the dorks and focus on payoff cards like Collected Company (if I ever actually drew it...) so in practice the dorks seemed irrelevant.
You might be thinking, "But Torpf, you don't have a Walking Ballista or Rhonas the Indomitable?" This is because I was trying to make the deck very compact. Once I had infinite mana I could either chain Collected Companies or use a single Chord of Calling to a Duskwatch Recruiter into pay. From there I can draw all of the green creatures in my deck, get X nongreen creatures where X is the number of Eternal Witnesses I have left to play (only need two for Viscera Seer and Anafenza) or alternatively because you can see you deck just use a Collected Company to assemble the 'old' combo and put infinite +1/+1 counters on my creatures. The reason I built the list this way is to free up two slots from Walking Ballista and Rhonas the Indomitable. They are 'freed' because Anafenza acts as a combo piece on her own, helps create a wall of Kitchen Finks, and is in general a good creature on the beatdown. Overall she is more flexible and offers more to the deck than the other two aforementioned cards. There was never a situation in which I couldn't have won without this method of infinite damage. I am sure they will come up, but I have some ideas of future iterations of the deck to protect against it.
Keeping in the old combo allows me to play Kitchen Finks which is an insane value engine against any fair deck in the format. They destroy burn. The single handedly won games vs Grixis and Jund today. They are too good to drop I feel. The only thing I can see reducing them for is a Voice of Resurgence + Renegade Rallier package which I will talk about next.
One of, if not the biggest faults of my list I felt was that it didn't have the raw power or card quality to compete with other decks in the format. Yes it was blazingly fast; but if it didn't have a good Collected Company hit on Turn 3/4 or a Chord in hand to win on turn 3 then it would just fold to itself. Looking at the pieces on it's own they are all terrible (which is how the deck has always kinda been, but more so now). I was finding my options for Eternal Witnesses were... lands and Hierarchs... This was partly due to the fact that I was drawing like crap and partly due to the fact that the deck was diluted by so many small too-weak-on-their-own cards. The power of the deck was Kitchen Finks, which is fine, but I wasn't having any decisive wins. It was more like a "30 minute maybe I'll win" type thing which is not where we want to be in the deck.
Yes the 3 Razorverge Thicket should be 3 Horizon Canopies. Maybe if I didn't spend so many resources foiling out the deck I could have some by now. They are coming. When they do eventually get added I am eagerly looking at a the interaction of Courser of Kruphix + Horizon Canopy. Normally with infinite G mana and a Duskwatch Recruiter you can't cast nongreen creatures from your deck if you don't already have a Chord in the graveyard for Witness. With an infinite Duskwatch Recruiter you can get and play the Courser of Kruphix, then with either an infinite Duskwatch Recruiter or Viscera Seer you can use a Horizon Canopy still in your deck to get an extra draw for the turn. With the trigger on the stack you then flip through your deck until a Chord (or good Company) is on top. Let the trigger resolve to draw it, and then use it with all of the Witnesses you also drew. This is a corner case, but it can probably come up a few times and win some games. It may also be relevant if you have some nongreen hatecards you absolutely need to play before comboing off (ie: get rid of a Rest in Peace, Kalitas, Phyrexian Revoker naming Ballista or Rhonas, etc...)
Because I felt bad about not having raw power in the deck, I was kinda thinking of the Voice of Resurgence + Renegade Rallier package as maindeck material. Right now plan A is to combo asap game 1 and move into a more midragey role if need be games 2 and 3. The list I played did not have the ability to pressure the opponent and still have an "oops I won" feel to it. I really did nothing, didn't interact, and then tried to win through the slew of whatever removal they had. At this point with manadorks and other bad cards having HUGE targets on their heads it kinda makes sense to try and just beat down the opponent in the first game and happen to assemble the combo if it comes up. After tonight this seems like a better idea on paper, so I will test it out tomorrow. It also has a more Splinter Twin feel to me. This will be my next approach at the deck.
I played 22 lands because that is what I like. Without Horizon Canopies I like having less lands, and with 11 manadorks in total there is no real problem getting there. If you can run the Canopies then I would suggest 23 lands, but anywhere in this range is going to work.
Being almost purely GW felt really good on the manabase. You don't have to acknowledge the black game 1 if you don't want to, and it is there games 2 and 3 if you need it. After playing with it today I would remove the 1 Swamp, and maybe the 1 Godless Shrine for 1 Overgrown Tomb (or Temple Garden??) and 1 Forest.
If I am moving to a more Voice of Resurgence oriented build and looking to pressure the opponent then I will add in a Rhonas. I think he is better than Ballista in the sole fact that you can hit him off of Company. Wiffing sucks, and I did a lot of that tonight.
I only want 1 Viscera Seer. I don't know what I was thinking with 2. I guess it's ok since I was only playing one win condition, but people scoop before I did it anyway haha.
So in summary of my ramblings: Deck is fast, but relies very heavily on resolving a Company or Chord. If you cannot then the deck seemed to almost collapse. Again this was one night with some bad draws so I need to play it way way way more until I am sure. Before the new combo people were beginning to lean back towards some big value creatures (I'm looking at you Tireless Tracker) so that may be the way to go again. Just left a bad taste in my mouth after tonight.
So there are my very tired ramblings about my list. I need some sleep, but I said I'd post something so here it is. Sorry in advance for any spelling mistakes I may have missed. I will post what I am going to tweak the list to in the morning when I can focus a bit better.
My thoughts for being faster: cut unnecessary cards in the deck and get more of your win-cards in:
Cut the Scooze, go to 6 dorks (you don't need much black so 3-3 split), get in finishers, up the Duskwatch (even can see 4). You don't need the swamp, get 4 Horizon Canopies. This is the maindeck I will test. Not sure on the sideboard, if it is heavy with black discard I can see for 1 Swamp maindeck but as it is right now I think going GWb with just a little black is the best for the deck
Walking Balista has yet to prove itself in paper. Online it is better because of the clock, but in paper you can take shorcuts meaning consistency and not being able to hit it off of Chord or Company may come up. I don't like less than 7 dorks but I will play around with it. It works for midrange discard but I want to be a bit more consistent with that. I will see over time. I don't know about Duskwatch just yet. I'm going to leave him at 2 and see how it goes. He is essentially 6 cards if you count Chord of calling, and then however many Witnesses and Companies are worth. I'll probably replace Spellskite with a Selfless Spirit once I can find a promo of it as it's better these days.
Agree with selflesss spirit being better than spellskite as it can protect against targeted removal and sweepers plus a bonus of able to attack in the air
In response to Pokken's earlier criticisms of my list, I guess I'll go point-by-point.
The Lands - I'm not cutting the Swamp just because having a 4th basic is favorable to me, I'd rather cut the Godless Shrine, and I might do that (I guess the other option would be to go from Swamp to Forest?). I also don't own a 3rd Horizon Canopy, but can probably borrow one. Alongside swapping the 2nd Marsh Flats for a 3rd Gavony, I have no problem with that adjustment. Last week, if there's one thing I felt I needed more of, it was Gavony Township. I used to run 3 back when it was highly unpopular, and I only recently cut the 3rd to add more fetch lands and deck thinning for the minor percentage gains on my CoCos.
Walking Ballista - I've lost entirely too many games of Legacy to a Walking Ballista played for 6 mana on turn 5+. How everyone is convinced that is a bad magic card in a deck that is capable of making infinite mana is beyond me. If anything, I want more Ballistas, not less, but due to it's poor interaction with both Chord and CoCo, I'm not willing to go there. Otherwise, that card is a house all on its own. That card is insane in any deck that can make infinite mana. It is my 30th creature in the deck and the only one that can't be hit by CoCo, I'm ok with those statistics.
Fiend Hunter - You mention nobody is playing Kalitas and I can beat Scooze but both cards have been notable problems in at least 1 game at each of the last 2 5+ round tournaments I've attended. I actually wasn't playing Fiend Hunter last weekend and missed the card so he came back. He's great against those cards, anything out of Eldrazi, adds another layer of defense against DS, and is has the obscure combo of Reveillark-Safi-Seer-Fiend Hunter available to exile all my opponent's creatures all the time.
Saffi - She's not competing with other combo slots honestly, I left that logic behind long ago. She's competing with Spellskite and Selfless Spirit and it was a discussion with a local Abzan CoCo player that moved me back from Spirit to Saffi. The quote was somewhere along the lines of "I'm just not seeing a whole lot of board wipes in general, especially not in game 1" She does a poor Spellskite impression and offers multiple obscure Viscera Seer infinites. IMO, she's the best piece of combo protection we can be playing in the MB right now.
Tireless Tracker - I'm not sold on running him MD, and if you want to consider any piece of the deck my substitute for the 6th 1 mana dork, this is it. As I mentioned in my last post, I've been encountering a ton of heavy-removal control decks in my area and they even top 8 fairly consistently. This is more of a nod to my local meta than anything else. I need creatures that do stuff other than just make mana.
The biggest local threats to me are - Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, decks that play a ton of removal and counters, Tron, Scapeshift, Ponza, and other AbzCo decks. Everything else I've played against feels at least somewhat positive. (Note that DS is not on that list, I have not actually bumped into it in a serious tournament in the past few weeks - right now, I'm more scared of Faeries than I am of DS, I'm 0-2 against that deck over the past 2 tournaments).
Torpf, actually Archangel of Thune + Spike Feeder combo has had way more GP/MOCS/MTGO results than lists without in the post Death's Shadow world. Just saying.
Going back and looking through the results of GP's, out of the 3 that have happened this year (including the team unified one) we have a list getting 5th at GP Vancouver, nothing at GP Brisbane, and a list getting 5th at GP San Antonio. Out of the three GP's only 2 lists placed and both played the combo so you are right there. That's my mistake as I haven't been as thorough on the results as I probably should be. For MOCS and MTGO results, the deck is scarce there and it is far far far easier to win through Anglefeeder than the old combo. According to MTGGoldfish it is in 57% of decks. It's not super disproportionate but there is defiantly some skew. What I was referring to was the paper results of old (which reeeeallly needs an update) in which the combo wasn't really played. In paper you're not really handicapping yourself by playing without it like you may be doing online. I have always viewed this deck as really 2 types of decks because of its difficulty to play online. I think the deck can exist in paper without the combo which is what I was getting at. Were we just not on the same page and you were talking about online? Or do you think that it should always be included?
I think you're right on replacing Seer, I think that's exactly what I'll do.
I am saying Selfless Spirit is better because of the lack of Lightning Bolts flying around these days. Fatal Push has moved in to share its space and now Spellskite isn't as resilient as it used to be. Path to Exile isn't super bad in my opinion because you either get a land, or if they are targeting Devoted Duid then you can sacrifice it and just get it back from the graveyard later. The worst card against us is probably Anger of the Gods which Spirit stops, and it also stops Supreme Verdict as a bonus. Spellskite just isn't stopping 2+ cards like used to do I've found since the printing of Push.
I just do not understand the incentive to cut gavony townships while adding mana dorks.
I would err closer to 4 townships than 2. There is just no way that any 3-drop is as good as the 3rd township and highly questionable that one is better than the 4th.
You guys are gonna want to remember the interaction between druid and township. If you have a devoted druid and a township it activates half the township on its own and then makes another mana. If you have two townships and two druids they can tap for 6 of the 10 mana required for the activations with this sequence -- both make GG (4), tap white, activate township one (float G), druids untap make GG (6), tap white, activate township 2. That allows activating township twice with 2 townships and 2 white sources.
It's really important to look at the whole deck. Township in the abzan version is more important than ever, and your mana color demands are lighter than ever. Because of all the dorks the deck can run on a single temple garden most games now.
In response to
The biggest local threats to me are - Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, decks that play a ton of removal and counters, Tron, Scapeshift, Ponza, and other AbzCo decks. Everything else I've played against feels at least somewhat positive. (Note that DS is not on that list, I have not actually bumped into it in a serious tournament in the past few weeks - right now, I'm more scared of Faeries than I am of DS, I'm 0-2 against that deck over the past 2 tournaments).
If ponza, tron, bant edlrazi, scapeshift etc. are the biggest threats why you are cutting manadorks and adding midrange cards and coco whiffs and playing an unnecessarily conservative manabase. If you want a fourth basic play a 3rd forest not a swamp, when running 2 viscera seers only. Swamp was important when we needed to make BB for redcap and wanted to cast a turn 1 seer regularly.
The way to beat big mana decks is to get a mana advantage and then combo out (or with vizier simply combo out). Tron is a deck where you wish you had 4 avacyn's pilgrims in addition to your 8 dorks, scapeshift too.
The way to beat decks with lots of removal and counterspells is to stick a gavony township. Township + finks beats those decks. It is highly likely that not drawing township is killing you. Play a Pharika in your sideboard and stick it.
Which decks do you consider spellskite a hate card against? (I for example would consider it a hate card against Bogles or Infect, but not against Affinity or Burn -- it's OK against those decks but a dud against a lot of their draws)
My issue with Spellskite is that it's actively bad against a lot of decks, and doesn't fly. The township plan makes cracking for 4-5 with an exalted selfless spirit a legitimate gameplan. One of the reasons I currently prefer Flickerwisp over Fiendhunter as well.
TORPF - if you need to boot me out of this thread please do, but my opinion is currently my Naya approach is spiritually very close to this deck and likely to have the most knowledgeable folks who may have interest.
Finally got around to making my changes for this week's FNM.
I made changes based on what I saw and how I tended to sideboard.
Main deck adjustments:
1) I wanted another 1-drop, so grim lavamancer is going in for the second duskwatch recruiter that I sideboarded out nearly 100% of the time.
2) 2nd Flickerwisp was overkill and rarely got used often boarded out. Cut it for a 4th rallier, which I have really liked.
3) Cut the slayers' stronghold for a 4th kessig wolf run. I was really on the fence about hanweir battlements but I think without a consistent way to find the singleton it's probably better off being all-in.
Sideboard adjustments:
I decided to keep it simple here and just cut the 2 crumbles for 2 primal commands. I have a pretty good feeling about my -3 chord +3 primal command against slow decks; it turns a tutor slot into a card advantage slot and with our increased mana production with rallier + druids I think it might be good. The rest of my board was just fine and I didn't feel any glaring lacks. I do have a cunning sparkmage on hand to try but I am thinking since I shaved a duskwatch I should leave the bonfire in as a potential alternate kill. There are a ton of ways to draw a non-creature spell in my version (with 3 canopies and 4 ralliers to get them).
TORPF - if you need to boot me out of this thread please do, but my opinion is currently my Naya approach is spiritually very close to this deck and likely to have the most knowledgeable folks who may have interest.
Finally got around to making my changes for this week's FNM.
I made changes based on what I saw and how I tended to sideboard.
Main deck adjustments:
1) I wanted another 1-drop, so grim lavamancer is going in for the second duskwatch recruiter that I sideboarded out nearly 100% of the time.
2) 2nd Flickerwisp was overkill and rarely got used often boarded out. Cut it for a 4th rallier, which I have really liked.
3) Cut the slayers' stronghold for a 4th kessig wolf run. I was really on the fence about hanweir battlements but I think without a consistent way to find the singleton it's probably better off being all-in.
Sideboard adjustments:
I decided to keep it simple here and just cut the 2 crumbles for 2 primal commands. I have a pretty good feeling about my -3 chord +3 primal command against slow decks; it turns a tutor slot into a card advantage slot and with our increased mana production with rallier + druids I think it might be good. The rest of my board was just fine and I didn't feel any glaring lacks. I do have a cunning sparkmage on hand to try but I am thinking since I shaved a duskwatch I should leave the bonfire in as a potential alternate kill. There are a ton of ways to draw a non-creature spell in my version (with 3 canopies and 4 ralliers to get them).
I'm going to jam a ton of test games tomorrow, focusing on the DSJ matchup which I think ought to be pretty good.
I think I will eventually test a similar list o this. But at the moment will be focusing on the Abzan build. One minor comment, would Banefire be a better replacement for bonfire?
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I think Walking Ballista over Bloodrite Invoked The +x/+x counters are serious. Yes, you miss with Coco or Chord. Bloodrite Invoker is a glorified Blood Artist, which hasn't been good. The strength of 1 is too easy to deal with, despite the reach IMO.
Why is everyone so hung up on having to have an instant kill without the combat step? Just play Rhonas, swing with an infinite sized trampler. Playing a non-coco hit or a completely trash creature like bloodrite invoker is just a joke. You're going to draw that or coco into your ballista and be sad. There is no reason to put an Emrakul style boat anchor in our deck when actual good cards like entity or rhonas will get the job done.
I feel like a lot of people have not been playing the combo as much as thinking about it. If you resolve duskwatch recruiter with infinite mana it is nearly impossible to lose even without a specific finisher, but you have infinite anafenza bolster or infinite rhonas as great options.
I am saying Selfless Spirit is better because of the lack of Lightning Bolts flying around these days. Fatal Push has moved in to share its space and now Spellskite isn't as resilient as it used to be. Path to Exile isn't super bad in my opinion because you either get a land, or if they are targeting Devoted Duid then you can sacrifice it and just get it back from the graveyard later. The worst card against us is probably Anger of the Gods which Spirit stops, and it also stops Supreme Verdict as a bonus. Spellskite just isn't stopping 2+ cards like used to do I've found since the printing of Push.
But I think you missed my point.
Spellskite is an incidental hate card for 3-4 decks, among which the most played deck in the format, and the second most played deck in the format. How is that not a reason to keep 1 in the 60?
Which decks do you consider spellskite a hate card against? (I for example would consider it a hate card against Bogles or Infect, but not against Affinity or Burn -- it's OK against those decks but a dud against a lot of their draws)
My issue with Spellskite is that it's actively bad against a lot of decks, and doesn't fly. The township plan makes cracking for 4-5 with an exalted selfless spirit a legitimate gameplan. One of the reasons I currently prefer Flickerwisp over Fiendhunter as well.
I think Pokken hit what I am trying to say quite well. I guess if I can break it down vs. top decks you have these cards that are on par or better with spirit:
Now this is a small number of cards for sure, and there is a reason Spellskite is a format staple and Selfless Spirit is not. But in our deck when having to switch gameplans and beat down being able to block with the entire team and win on the swingback is great. Blocking pesky fliers is great. stopping sweepers is amazing as those are the hardest things to beat. There is so much spot removal flying around, which the most common of (save Path) that both creatures are only stopping one spell. Just the added sweeper insurance gives SS the edge for me.
TORPF - if you need to boot me out of this thread please do, but my opinion is currently my Naya approach is spiritually very close to this deck and likely to have the most knowledgeable folks who may have interest.
Finally got around to making my changes for this week's FNM.
I made changes based on what I saw and how I tended to sideboard.
Main deck adjustments:
1) I wanted another 1-drop, so grim lavamancer is going in for the second duskwatch recruiter that I sideboarded out nearly 100% of the time.
2) 2nd Flickerwisp was overkill and rarely got used often boarded out. Cut it for a 4th rallier, which I have really liked.
3) Cut the slayers' stronghold for a 4th kessig wolf run. I was really on the fence about hanweir battlements but I think without a consistent way to find the singleton it's probably better off being all-in.
Sideboard adjustments:
I decided to keep it simple here and just cut the 2 crumbles for 2 primal commands. I have a pretty good feeling about my -3 chord +3 primal command against slow decks; it turns a tutor slot into a card advantage slot and with our increased mana production with rallier + druids I think it might be good. The rest of my board was just fine and I didn't feel any glaring lacks. I do have a cunning sparkmage on hand to try but I am thinking since I shaved a duskwatch I should leave the bonfire in as a potential alternate kill. There are a ton of ways to draw a non-creature spell in my version (with 3 canopies and 4 ralliers to get them).
I'm going to jam a ton of test games tomorrow, focusing on the DSJ matchup which I think ought to be pretty good.
Lol yeah post in here until a fine line between decks is made. If that ever happens then we'll talk about booting you out. I am 99% sure this thread will become GW/x Company before that happens though.
You accuse us of not having played the deck enough, and yet you are the one claiming we can always win through combat damage, which is obviously false.
Yesterday a guy made a fool out of me letting me put several creatures on the table including Rhonas, then tapped all of them with Cryptic and on his turn he exiled my Rhonas and played Supreme Verdict and guess what, I lost.
Another time an Ad Nauseam player did a similar thing with Angel's Grace, then comboed off the following turn.
And trust me, there are plenty of other situations where Rhonas alone won't get the job done. I don't even need to bring up stuff like Ensnaring Bridge. Sometimes he simply gets discarded, then exiled from graveyard, and then you look a bit stupid if you haven't even got a plan b.
I would say that in many cases that type of thing happens because you played wrong, and in other times it's just a corner case that will cost you fewer games than drawing crappy bricks (AND not being able to chord for your win condition in the case of ballista, which is awful)
Not having selfless spirit is a mistake right now, verdict and anger are too popular It's a reason I play spirit is in case I have to pass the turn for some reason.
I have no idea how you possibly lose to cryptic tapping your team when druid can untap itself and swing (this is actually a beautiful thing about druid) -- (edit: Unless maybe they bounced druid and you didn't say?) . If you didn't have the combo on board then I'm not sure how invoker/ballista would have won it for you. ( And hell if he had cryptic he coulda just countered ballista )
Ad Nauseam is just a deck like that. Angel's grace ruins a lot of plans. Against Ad Naus, bloodright invoker doesn't kill (but does beat non-lab-maniac) and ballista loses to angel's grace so not sure what your argument is Ballista gives you an out to grace then unlife, but maybe a better card would be to maindeck a reclamation sage or pridemage?
Edit:
I've been wracking my brains thinking if situations where Rhonas is worse than Ballista, and here are some I can think of based on the dialogue thus far:
1) Ad nauseam has unlife on board and grace in hand and ad nauseam and sufficient mana to combo
-In this case ballista kills on their upkeep unless they have a second grace.
2) Fog effects other than cryptic
3) cryptic -- tap/bounce druid only if you have naturally drawn rhonas and do not have a chord or coco in hand (otherwise you would have chorded for recruiter and drawn your deck, played all 4 kitchen finks, played a witness and chorded for viscera seer and gained infinite life, ending the game), and your opponent could not survive a normal attack step and had to tap your team instead of waiting to counter your post-combat ballista.
4) When your opponent has a first striking blocker with at least 2 power and druid is your only attacker
5) Opponent has removal for all your attackers and will win next turn and you have not duskwatched (because if you did you should have a way to prevent them from winning, such as infinite life combo)
---------------------------
TL;DR to boil this down a bit since it got voluminous:
There are situations where ballista or bloodright invoker will be better than rhonas (and mirror entity). My opinion is that in general those situations are less common than when those cards are worse than rhonas (or mirror entity). Ballista/invoker are better in corner cases and rhonas/entity are just good all the time.
You're going to draw them a lot more in regular situations than you are in corner cases. They belong in the sideboard if anywhere.
If you play Legacy at all, one of the current best decks in the format is Food Chain which is playing 4x Walking Ballista and one of the scariest things they can do in a game is simply put it on the battlefield for a moderate amount of mana. A 6 mana Ballista means your opponent has to deal with it before putting anything with 2 or less toughness on the board or they just gave you a free card. If it sticks around for another turn, you can put another counter on the thing and now that's 3 toughness or it's a free card. When they DO deal with it, they still get to eat a lightning bolt to the face. I am not talking combo here, I am not talking absurd amounts of mana, I'm talking about playing a single card on turn 6+ against a control-oriented deck. And any Food Chain player will tell you they win a notable percentage of their games by simply resolving Ballista and pinging down enemy creatures.
While the decks are very different, both have a lot of similar goals. Ramp mana in the first 2 turns of the game (Birds for us, DRS for them), play value cards (CoCo for us, Manipulate Fate for them) and accidentally win X% of games by presenting an infinite combo (Creature combos for us, Food Chain for them).
While you guys are talking about how you can't Chord for it, and how it whiffs on CoCo, I'm over here thinking that I would never WANT to put it into play through either of those means anyway, nor do I need to do so in any given game state, but as far as random junk goes, I'd much rather play a Walking Ballista for 4 in a random situation than I would Rhonas for 3, who's probably just going to sit there for several turns or Bloodrite Invoker who is essentially a 3/1 for 3 unless you happen to win the game, Mirror Entity is probably the best of these alternate wincon cards and has it's own way of providing value, but I appreciate the ability to kill problem creatures my enemy controls in any given game state and win at sorcery speed, rather than relying on the combat step for those situations that require it. Best of all, Walking Ballista doesn't need an off-colored mana to do any of that in any situation. Green is good to go!
Yes, the card gives us the opportunity to instantly win games when we do a Devoted Vizier combo, but it ALSO presents value on it's own, which, if I'm not mistaken, has been the strength of this deck all along.
If you play Legacy at all, one of the current best decks in the format is Food Chain which is playing 4x Walking Ballista and one of the scariest things they can do in a game is simply put it on the battlefield for a moderate amount of mana. A 6 mana Ballista means your opponent has to deal with it before putting anything with 2 or less toughness on the board or they just gave you a free card. If it sticks around for another turn, you can put another counter on the thing and now that's 3 toughness or it's a free card. When they DO deal with it, they still get to eat a lightning bolt to the face. I am not talking combo here, I am not talking absurd amounts of mana, I'm talking about playing a single card on turn 6+ against a control-oriented deck. And any Food Chain player will tell you they win a notable percentage of their games by simply resolving Ballista and pinging down enemy creatures.
While the decks are very different, both have a lot of similar goals. Ramp mana in the first 2 turns of the game (Birds for us, DRS for them), play value cards (CoCo for us, Manipulate Fate for them) and accidentally win X% of games by presenting an infinite combo (Creature combos for us, Food Chain for them).
While you guys are talking about how you can't Chord for it, and how it whiffs on CoCo, I'm over here thinking that I would never WANT to put it into play through either of those means anyway, nor do I need to do so in any given game state, but as far as random junk goes, I'd much rather play a Walking Ballista for 4 in a random situation than I would Rhonas for 3, who's probably just going to sit there for several turns or Bloodrite Invoker who is essentially a 3/1 for 3 unless you happen to win the game, Mirror Entity is probably the best of these alternate wincon cards and has it's own way of providing value, but I appreciate the ability to kill problem creatures my enemy controls in any given game state and win at sorcery speed, rather than relying on the combat step for those situations that require it. Best of all, Walking Ballista doesn't need an off-colored mana to do any of that in any situation. Green is good to go!
Yes, the card gives us the opportunity to instantly win games when we do a Devoted Vizier combo, but it ALSO presents value on it's own, which, if I'm not mistaken, has been the strength of this deck all along.
This is exactly what I was trying to get across. Balista on its own can be very good vs plenty of decks including the mirror.
Ballista is OK in legacy because most decks have one piece [meant playset; 4 or so removal spells] of creature removal and 4 of the best 5 creatures die to 2 (or fewer) counters. In modern it's not particularly strong. Creature base is different and removal suites are different.
Ballista will rarely provide "value" on its own. Value is going up a card not doing 3 to the face when it gets shoved off a building. *sometimes* You will kill another creature or two in response to removal. But a lot less often than Mirror Entity will win the game by turning your team into 4/4s or Rhonas will win by being indestructible.
Yeah I agree. My issue now is that I would really like a Scavenging Ooze mainboard, but I'm not really sure what to remove...
My thoughts for being faster: cut unnecessary cards in the deck and get more of your win-cards in:
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Devoted Druid
1 Viscera Seer
4 Vizier of Remedies
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Spellskite
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Eternal Witness
1 Walking Balista
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
Lands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Gavony Township
2 Forest
1 Plains
Cut the Scooze, go to 6 dorks (you don't need much black so 3-3 split), get in finishers, up the Duskwatch (even can see 4). You don't need the swamp, get 4 Horizon Canopies. This is the maindeck I will test. Not sure on the sideboard, if it is heavy with black discard I can see for 1 Swamp maindeck but as it is right now I think going GWb with just a little black is the best for the deck
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
22 Lands
3 Forests
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Gavony Township
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Devoted Druid
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Vizier of Remedies
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Visera Seer
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
3 Eternal Witness
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Rhonas
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
The deck performed really well than I expected. I could have won more than 1/3 of my games on turn 3 if my opponent cannot interact with my board.
Here are my thoughts on the deck:
1. Turn one mana dork is not necessary for winning early in the game. You can play tapped land first turn, then play devoted druid second turn and have infinite mana on the third turn. Playing turn 3 Coco is also very possible with turn 2 devoted druid in play. So I think we can reduce one mana dorks to 6 or maybe even less. As of now I am happy of having 6 with (4 birds and 2 Noble). Not sure about getting 3/3 or 2/4 in favor of noble but I like having birds as blockers for flying.
2. Glad to keep the infinite life combo with finks and seer. Finks is an all-star for aggro matchups. This combo won me a few games
3. Only 1 Visera Seer is enough. No need for 2.
4. I totally dropped anafenza as infinite bolster is not necessary to win the game. Once you have infinite life and scrys, you can just get the primary (infinite mana) combo and win. One can argue that she is also a combo piece but she is just meh on her own.
5. I am not sure about Rhonas. It has won me a turn early but could have won back the following turn. I think it is still pretty relevant especially if the opponent plays sweepers (Tron, Anger, Wrath). I also prefer it to walking ballista as it can be hit with Coco.
6. Currently I am happy with just 2 Duskwatch not sure if I can cut it down to 1. It is just a 2/2 bear against aggro decks and really mana intensive to play mid game. It is valuable only in the late game. Often I got Chord in hand when I have infinite mana or I can cast it from the yard with an eternal witness in hand. Can also search it with Coco so I think 2 maybe the right number.
7. Really liked the 2 Courser, 1 tracker package. This gave card advantage and eventually drew my combo pieces. Courser is very good against aggro and grindy matchups. It can block, gains life, filters draw, helps with mana. Just save a fetch and if I do not want the top of the deck, just crack the fetch and get another draw.
8. 3 Eternal Witness is a good number. Acts as a combo piece most of the time with Chord in the graveyard. I do not want to go less than 2. With regards to Eternal witness and renegade rallier, I would rather put the 4th Witness in favor of the Rallier. Rallier is either a hit or a miss, but with eternal witness it will always bring value. It can bring back Coco which Rallier can't.
9. I am happy of having 22 lands. I would also consider dropping swamp in favor of something else like Canopies/Ghost quarter/Gavony township.
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Staff5 Dorks is too little. The point of the deck is to have a mana accelerant to get out a 3-drop on turn 2 (less so now) but also to hit a Company on Turn 3. If you are going to be missing the turn 1 dork in about half your games what will you be doing on turn 1? Almost all of our 2-drop slot does nothing on its own so you will be playing nothing T1 and esentally doing nothing T2. That's going to spell doom against the format.
Everything is equally easy to cast once you have infinite green and the right cards. There is no argument for including Anglethune except for personal preference. My personal preference is that time will show that it is not quite good enough, just like it did with older lists.
Replace a Seer. The old combo isn't essential, but is nice to have. Seer can hide in the deck until you need him and he is useful against Living End and stuff. He;s just not that necessary anymore though.
Walking Balista has yet to prove itself in paper. Online it is better because of the clock, but in paper you can take shorcuts meaning consistency and not being able to hit it off of Chord or Company may come up. I don't like less than 7 dorks but I will play around with it. It works for midrange discard but I want to be a bit more consistent with that. I will see over time. I don't know about Duskwatch just yet. I'm going to leave him at 2 and see how it goes. He is essentially 6 cards if you count Chord of calling, and then however many Witnesses and Companies are worth. I'll probably replace Spellskite with a Selfless Spirit once I can find a promo of it as it's better these days.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
The Lands - I'm not cutting the Swamp just because having a 4th basic is favorable to me, I'd rather cut the Godless Shrine, and I might do that (I guess the other option would be to go from Swamp to Forest?). I also don't own a 3rd Horizon Canopy, but can probably borrow one. Alongside swapping the 2nd Marsh Flats for a 3rd Gavony, I have no problem with that adjustment. Last week, if there's one thing I felt I needed more of, it was Gavony Township. I used to run 3 back when it was highly unpopular, and I only recently cut the 3rd to add more fetch lands and deck thinning for the minor percentage gains on my CoCos.
Walking Ballista - I've lost entirely too many games of Legacy to a Walking Ballista played for 6 mana on turn 5+. How everyone is convinced that is a bad magic card in a deck that is capable of making infinite mana is beyond me. If anything, I want more Ballistas, not less, but due to it's poor interaction with both Chord and CoCo, I'm not willing to go there. Otherwise, that card is a house all on its own. That card is insane in any deck that can make infinite mana. It is my 30th creature in the deck and the only one that can't be hit by CoCo, I'm ok with those statistics.
Fiend Hunter - You mention nobody is playing Kalitas and I can beat Scooze but both cards have been notable problems in at least 1 game at each of the last 2 5+ round tournaments I've attended. I actually wasn't playing Fiend Hunter last weekend and missed the card so he came back. He's great against those cards, anything out of Eldrazi, adds another layer of defense against DS, and is has the obscure combo of Reveillark-Safi-Seer-Fiend Hunter available to exile all my opponent's creatures all the time.
Saffi - She's not competing with other combo slots honestly, I left that logic behind long ago. She's competing with Spellskite and Selfless Spirit and it was a discussion with a local Abzan CoCo player that moved me back from Spirit to Saffi. The quote was somewhere along the lines of "I'm just not seeing a whole lot of board wipes in general, especially not in game 1" She does a poor Spellskite impression and offers multiple obscure Viscera Seer infinites. IMO, she's the best piece of combo protection we can be playing in the MB right now.
Tireless Tracker - I'm not sold on running him MD, and if you want to consider any piece of the deck my substitute for the 6th 1 mana dork, this is it. As I mentioned in my last post, I've been encountering a ton of heavy-removal control decks in my area and they even top 8 fairly consistently. This is more of a nod to my local meta than anything else. I need creatures that do stuff other than just make mana.
The biggest local threats to me are - Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, decks that play a ton of removal and counters, Tron, Scapeshift, Ponza, and other AbzCo decks. Everything else I've played against feels at least somewhat positive. (Note that DS is not on that list, I have not actually bumped into it in a serious tournament in the past few weeks - right now, I'm more scared of Faeries than I am of DS, I'm 0-2 against that deck over the past 2 tournaments).
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StaffI am saying Selfless Spirit is better because of the lack of Lightning Bolts flying around these days. Fatal Push has moved in to share its space and now Spellskite isn't as resilient as it used to be. Path to Exile isn't super bad in my opinion because you either get a land, or if they are targeting Devoted Duid then you can sacrifice it and just get it back from the graveyard later. The worst card against us is probably Anger of the Gods which Spirit stops, and it also stops Supreme Verdict as a bonus. Spellskite just isn't stopping 2+ cards like used to do I've found since the printing of Push.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I would err closer to 4 townships than 2. There is just no way that any 3-drop is as good as the 3rd township and highly questionable that one is better than the 4th.
You guys are gonna want to remember the interaction between druid and township. If you have a devoted druid and a township it activates half the township on its own and then makes another mana. If you have two townships and two druids they can tap for 6 of the 10 mana required for the activations with this sequence -- both make GG (4), tap white, activate township one (float G), druids untap make GG (6), tap white, activate township 2. That allows activating township twice with 2 townships and 2 white sources.
It's really important to look at the whole deck. Township in the abzan version is more important than ever, and your mana color demands are lighter than ever. Because of all the dorks the deck can run on a single temple garden most games now.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
If ponza, tron, bant edlrazi, scapeshift etc. are the biggest threats why you are cutting manadorks and adding midrange cards and coco whiffs and playing an unnecessarily conservative manabase. If you want a fourth basic play a 3rd forest not a swamp, when running 2 viscera seers only. Swamp was important when we needed to make BB for redcap and wanted to cast a turn 1 seer regularly.
The way to beat big mana decks is to get a mana advantage and then combo out (or with vizier simply combo out). Tron is a deck where you wish you had 4 avacyn's pilgrims in addition to your 8 dorks, scapeshift too.
The way to beat decks with lots of removal and counterspells is to stick a gavony township. Township + finks beats those decks. It is highly likely that not drawing township is killing you. Play a Pharika in your sideboard and stick it.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
My issue with Spellskite is that it's actively bad against a lot of decks, and doesn't fly. The township plan makes cracking for 4-5 with an exalted selfless spirit a legitimate gameplan. One of the reasons I currently prefer Flickerwisp over Fiendhunter as well.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Finally got around to making my changes for this week's FNM.
I made changes based on what I saw and how I tended to sideboard.
Main deck adjustments:
1) I wanted another 1-drop, so grim lavamancer is going in for the second duskwatch recruiter that I sideboarded out nearly 100% of the time.
2) 2nd Flickerwisp was overkill and rarely got used often boarded out. Cut it for a 4th rallier, which I have really liked.
3) Cut the slayers' stronghold for a 4th kessig wolf run. I was really on the fence about hanweir battlements but I think without a consistent way to find the singleton it's probably better off being all-in.
Sideboard adjustments:
I decided to keep it simple here and just cut the 2 crumbles for 2 primal commands. I have a pretty good feeling about my -3 chord +3 primal command against slow decks; it turns a tutor slot into a card advantage slot and with our increased mana production with rallier + druids I think it might be good. The rest of my board was just fine and I didn't feel any glaring lacks. I do have a cunning sparkmage on hand to try but I am thinking since I shaved a duskwatch I should leave the bonfire in as a potential alternate kill. There are a ton of ways to draw a non-creature spell in my version (with 3 canopies and 4 ralliers to get them).
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Devoted Druid
4 Vizier of Remedies
1 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Mirror Entity
1 Flickerwisp
4 Renegade Rallier
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Deadeye Harpooner
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Fiery Justice
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Lone Missionary
3 Primal Command
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Reveillark
1 Scavenging Ooze
I'm going to jam a ton of test games tomorrow, focusing on the DSJ matchup which I think ought to be pretty good.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I think I will eventually test a similar list o this. But at the moment will be focusing on the Abzan build. One minor comment, would Banefire be a better replacement for bonfire?
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
I feel like a lot of people have not been playing the combo as much as thinking about it. If you resolve duskwatch recruiter with infinite mana it is nearly impossible to lose even without a specific finisher, but you have infinite anafenza bolster or infinite rhonas as great options.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
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StaffSignal Pest (and flying creatures), Galvanic Blast, Burn spells (as long as there is only 1), Terminate, Lightning Axe, Fatal Push, Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan's Command, Stony Silence, Ancient Grudge, Ratchet Bomb, Engineered Explosives, Whipflare, Anger of the Gods, Supreme Verdict, Maelstrom Pulse.
Now this is a small number of cards for sure, and there is a reason Spellskite is a format staple and Selfless Spirit is not. But in our deck when having to switch gameplans and beat down being able to block with the entire team and win on the swingback is great. Blocking pesky fliers is great. stopping sweepers is amazing as those are the hardest things to beat. There is so much spot removal flying around, which the most common of (save Path) that both creatures are only stopping one spell. Just the added sweeper insurance gives SS the edge for me.
Lol yeah post in here until a fine line between decks is made. If that ever happens then we'll talk about booting you out. I am 99% sure this thread will become GW/x Company before that happens though.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I would say that in many cases that type of thing happens because you played wrong, and in other times it's just a corner case that will cost you fewer games than drawing crappy bricks (AND not being able to chord for your win condition in the case of ballista, which is awful)
Not having selfless spirit is a mistake right now, verdict and anger are too popular
I have no idea how you possibly lose to cryptic tapping your team when druid can untap itself and swing (this is actually a beautiful thing about druid) -- (edit: Unless maybe they bounced druid and you didn't say?) . If you didn't have the combo on board then I'm not sure how invoker/ballista would have won it for you. ( And hell if he had cryptic he coulda just countered ballista )
Ad Nauseam is just a deck like that. Angel's grace ruins a lot of plans. Against Ad Naus, bloodright invoker doesn't kill (but does beat non-lab-maniac) and ballista loses to angel's grace so not sure what your argument is
Edit:
I've been wracking my brains thinking if situations where Rhonas is worse than Ballista, and here are some I can think of based on the dialogue thus far:
1) Ad nauseam has unlife on board and grace in hand and ad nauseam and sufficient mana to combo
-In this case ballista kills on their upkeep unless they have a second grace.
2) Fog effects other than cryptic
3) cryptic -- tap/bounce druid only if you have naturally drawn rhonas and do not have a chord or coco in hand (otherwise you would have chorded for recruiter and drawn your deck, played all 4 kitchen finks, played a witness and chorded for viscera seer and gained infinite life, ending the game), and your opponent could not survive a normal attack step and had to tap your team instead of waiting to counter your post-combat ballista.
4) When your opponent has a first striking blocker with at least 2 power and druid is your only attacker
5) Opponent has removal for all your attackers and will win next turn and you have not duskwatched (because if you did you should have a way to prevent them from winning, such as infinite life combo)
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TL;DR to boil this down a bit since it got voluminous:
There are situations where ballista or bloodright invoker will be better than rhonas (and mirror entity). My opinion is that in general those situations are less common than when those cards are worse than rhonas (or mirror entity). Ballista/invoker are better in corner cases and rhonas/entity are just good all the time.
You're going to draw them a lot more in regular situations than you are in corner cases. They belong in the sideboard if anywhere.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
While the decks are very different, both have a lot of similar goals. Ramp mana in the first 2 turns of the game (Birds for us, DRS for them), play value cards (CoCo for us, Manipulate Fate for them) and accidentally win X% of games by presenting an infinite combo (Creature combos for us, Food Chain for them).
While you guys are talking about how you can't Chord for it, and how it whiffs on CoCo, I'm over here thinking that I would never WANT to put it into play through either of those means anyway, nor do I need to do so in any given game state, but as far as random junk goes, I'd much rather play a Walking Ballista for 4 in a random situation than I would Rhonas for 3, who's probably just going to sit there for several turns or Bloodrite Invoker who is essentially a 3/1 for 3 unless you happen to win the game, Mirror Entity is probably the best of these alternate wincon cards and has it's own way of providing value, but I appreciate the ability to kill problem creatures my enemy controls in any given game state and win at sorcery speed, rather than relying on the combat step for those situations that require it. Best of all, Walking Ballista doesn't need an off-colored mana to do any of that in any situation. Green is good to go!
Yes, the card gives us the opportunity to instantly win games when we do a Devoted Vizier combo, but it ALSO presents value on it's own, which, if I'm not mistaken, has been the strength of this deck all along.
This is exactly what I was trying to get across. Balista on its own can be very good vs plenty of decks including the mirror.
Ballista will rarely provide "value" on its own. Value is going up a card not doing 3 to the face when it gets shoved off a building. *sometimes* You will kill another creature or two in response to removal. But a lot less often than Mirror Entity will win the game by turning your team into 4/4s or Rhonas will win by being indestructible.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall