He has a great point about Maelstrom Pulse, it's actually really well positioned at the moment. I also like all the discard he runs, I still find Sculler too risky though, maybe one day I'll try them over Thoughtseize and Sin Collector. Courser and Pharika are some spicy techs too.
Only thing I don't agree with is on Voice of Resurgence, I don't see how Voice in the main dilutes the combo plan more than Orzhov Pontiff or something. It also provides the opportunity for a second beatdown plan, independant from Gavony Township. I also don't get why not remove 2x Melira and 1x Seer in the Jund matchup, since you won't be able to combo anyway and every single thing that kills Birds kills them as well and at least Birds provide some acceleration and fly.
I see he likes to slip in his primer while mine is under construction.. bold tactics. Still it's always nice to hear his opinion on the deck since he's probably had the most success with it out of anyone.
I still have yet to really want pulse or decay...but it's probably my meta.
I've been on a budget build with only 1 heirarch, skite, and voice. I haven't had too many situations where I was dying for more of them. I've actually been enjoying an abolisher over voice for a control(ish) creature. Voice is a solid card, but if I really don't want my opponent scoozing, countering, of burning my combo when I go off I put abolisher in.
I've also had great play value out of angelfeeder. So I've been running singles in my main, it's great to have a bit in combo that ignores the grave and most hate.
@weirdfish42: You don't understand because you probably don't have the necessary amount of games to do so. Really interesting that yesterday I saw a Pre SB game against UWR Kiki and guess what happened... Turn 1 Noble, turn 2 Voice, turn 3 Voice + Anafenza. His opp turn 2 Wall of Omens and proceed to only play on turn 4 and 5 resto and kiki. Seriously ahahahahah
Voice is the same old story as Abrupt Decay. Do you wanna get a little bit more consistency against Lightning Bolt's comboless decks? Play voice. Do you wanna get a little bit more consistency against anything else? Don't play voice mainboard. I lol a lot whenever Im watching people playing my deck drawing them in the mirror and whine, draw them against aff and whine, draw them against ad nauseam and whine, draw them against tron and I hear something like "oh god I wish this was a 4th Witness" ahahahahah
See, I know Voice is situational, that's the whole point of silver bullets right, but *this* specific argument is what I just don't get. My mainboard is almost identical to Logan's actually, I just run 2x voice instead of Pontiff and the 4th Witness. How would either of those cards have helped me against the UWR Kiki situation you described?
Maybe I'm not thinking this through, but Pontiff seems way more situational for me. I can't really think of a matchup I'm not already favored in (Affinity, Infect) where I'd want it in the main except for the mirror.
@weirdfish42: You don't understand because you probably don't have the necessary amount of games to do so. Really interesting that yesterday I saw a Pre SB game against UWR Kiki and guess what happened... Turn 1 Noble, turn 2 Voice, turn 3 Voice + Anafenza. His opp turn 2 Wall of Omens and proceed to only play on turn 4 and 5 resto and kiki. Seriously ahahahahah
Voice is the same old story as Abrupt Decay. Do you wanna get a little bit more consistency against Lightning Bolt's comboless decks? Play voice. Do you wanna get a little bit more consistency against anything else? Don't play voice mainboard. I lol a lot whenever Im watching people playing my deck drawing them in the mirror and whine, draw them against aff and whine, draw them against ad nauseam and whine, draw them against tron and I hear something like "oh god I wish this was a 4th Witness" ahahahahah
See, I know Voice is situational, that's the whole point of silver bullets right, but *this* specific argument is what I just don't get. My mainboard is almost identical to Logan's actually, I just run 2x voice instead of Pontiff and the 4th Witness. How would either of those cards have helped me against the UWR Kiki situation you described?
Maybe I'm not thinking this through, but Pontiff seems way more situational for me. I can't really think of a matchup I'm not already favored in (Affinity, Infect) where I'd want it in the main except for the mirror.
Pontiff is very flexiable though. It can pump your team, you can do the sacfifice tricks to wipe their x/2's, and you don't really ever need to see it as a 1-of. How many times do you see yourself Chording for a Voice? I know I don't and I've been paying them since the beginning. I just play them when they come up or off of Company. I can see how Pontiff isn't detrimental to the deck, it's just as though you aren't playing Voices maindeck and have and extra Witness for more grind. I'd go so far as to say you essentially have a 59 card deck that sometime you draw the Pontiff and can then decide when to use his effects to benefit you.
I know plenty of people can say the same for voice of resurgence. Not that you are not correct for at least some situations..
cbgirardo is known for his outrageous/hyperbolic statements. He comes with awesome new techs/decks but you should just ignore his evaluations.
Oh okay, yeah empty statements like this don't really help without the correct context. This deck is so tune-able that it helps to know the situations so we can all judge based one what we are seeing in our meta. Right now I'm not going to use voice main or Archangel, I'm not going to have 4 Eterenal witness either. Most of the decks here right now use the graveyard and so there is much gy hate as well.. and much needed. I might do 2 Scooze main or something in the place of those, and maybe even an Anafenza, Foremost or Pharika in the side. There are several dredge so I might just go with Foremost. Dredges, Thopter Gifts, Mirror.
Can we get off voice argument and trust that we know how to decide when to use it and decide what's the best thing to deal with Nahiri? Is that gonna be Maelstrom Pulse or something like Celestial Purge? I do feel like black and red has some of the most annoying things right now such as Nahiri, Kalitas, Void, Foundry, Bloodmoon.
I just read that Logan article and just realized every problem card he cited for using Maelstrom Pulse is exiled instantly by Celestial Purge, the Pulse seems right in a large event but I'm still considering Purge for the cronies here.
For those interested, you can find the deck list in the comment section of this wonderfully written article that Mize wrote. Lots of good information in both the article and the comments section. I'm running something similar tomorrow.
How come most people play 4x Bird and 3x Noble? I've literally never lacked black mana for Viscera or Murder and the exalted on Noble is often very relevant. Am I missing something?
Flying. Gavony Township gums up the ground and swing in the air.
I guess turn 2 Tidehollow Sculler/Orzhov Pontiff are also relevant.
Hey guys i've been having some trouble against Abzan liege and Eldrazi&taxes , how do you approach those matchups ? Any sideboard/play advice ?
Thanks
My roommate picked up B/W Eldrazi & Taxes, and I'm not sure if it's due to his inexperience with the deck, but I feel the matchup is pretty good for us.
Going wide with Gavony Township feels really good, seeing as though their only removal tends to be single target. Do be cautious of a potential Zealous Persecution coming out of their SB, however.
Wall of Roots and Spellskite are both really good in the matchup too, with roots blocking Thought-Knot for days, and spellskite can eat a strangle and kick on afterwards.
I find I don't go for combo much, since they'll usually sit on Path if you start threatening combo.
No experience against the Liege matchup, unfortunately.
Hey guys i've been having some trouble against Abzan liege and Eldrazi&taxes , how do you approach those matchups ? Any sideboard/play advice ?
Thanks
I beat an experienced and novice eldrazi tax player last week with relative ease...just keep hands with tons of creatures and go wide. Gavony will be your friend. Some of the worst creatures they have are arbiter and thought-knot. With an Ana on the field their displacer and flicker wisp become a bit moot.
SB I tend to take out the chords as the arbiter makes it less appealing. I main angelfeeder so a rip or cage or relic won't hurt me too bad. But the pridemage exalted will help bashing faces in as well as remove a vial or cage.
Depending on sideboard I would bring in tidehallows/sin collects. Recsage for more artifact hate. Also any creature with a big butt like eidolon or loxodon.
They will have or side in reality smasher so be ready for that turn 3-5. Rips and cages will come in and if u have removal you want to take out the displacer or thought before they strip your hand.
Also birds, gavony, and Ana will be your very best friends
With so many white/green costs I would recommend running a temple or two instead of fetch 9 and 10.
Also, just a suggestion bc I am running budget as well. With only shrine and tomb as your shocks I think 4 Bloodstain would be better than 4 foothills, maybe a 2-2 split? Because if u run into a long game and fetch all 4 green sources and pull a foothill it's a dead draw.
You can do the hunter trick with tide, tide just is an unrestricted removal. Tide can also be a removal eater if u take something your opponent needs. Both lines of play are available to us.
Ave only effect opponents. Its good in the mirror, slows tron if u can get it out early. Also can ax the gifts decks, and almost kills litterally anything that searches.
It has flash so u can leave mana up to chord company or play it. It get hit by company, perfectly good hate card
If you're running off-color forest fetches you can't play godless shrine and the manabase needs complete reworking. Budget manabase discussion also should be in the budget forum and not here (so far as I am aware)--so I'm not going to go into deep discussion on it
Re: Tidehollow Sculler
I think it's a solid card vs. an open meta, especially good vs. tron,combo and scapeshift which are all terribad matchups. I'm not sure I love jamming 3-4 but it seems reasonable to try. Very flexible for sure.
So this is my ripoff of the Article on CHannel fireball. Most things are the same I think there is a 2 card difference. But the archangel of thune and spike feeder combo as another way to go infinite and also infinitely pump our dudes without having to sac anything or put anything in the GY. So we avoid a lot of graveyard hate this way.
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I'm going to be honest, I have been playing this deck way past its shelf-life at this point. There is just no place for it in the meta, I play this and lantern control currently for reference. I played a casual tournament tonight. Most players were running Jund, tron or some nahiri shenanigans. We pretty much auto scoop against tron, and mardu nahiri and jund run kalitas. The printing of Kalitas puts this deck to bed forever unless its banned. There were plenty of graveyard hate options prior to kalitas, but kalitas just does it all. If it resolves and you dont have path or draw it within two turns you are dead. The back-up gavony township plan does nothing as it is too mana-intense and you can bet you bottom dollar more hate will show up before then. I don't need to mention tron I don't think. We all know about that. Tbh unbanning pod does nothing at all at this point. The designers are all about new and crazy abilities and multiple abilities each card. I get the feeling that knowing that they dropped modern from the pro tour to grant additional design space, they probably aren't considering the reprecussions of a lot of their creations in modern. I think I will salvage what I can from abzan, sell the rest and move to jund. Jund has never been bad and has been tier one forever. You should still have a decent amount of cards and mana base to move over to jund if you choose or be able to get enough from your deck to make tron if that is your pick. I am fairly certain this deck will drop out of favor and loose value so I will try to sell while the curve hasnt caught up. Prediction, Tier 1= Jund, Tron, Infect, Burn, any Nahiri combo deck. Thanks guys, not sure it will be my last time on this forum, but it is feeling like it. I love you all!! Later
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WHile I do enjoy Jund, i think you are being a bit hasty. We have ways to answer the issues you mentioned. Deck just needs to be tweaked. It's a toolbox deck so you have to bring the right tools to "fix" your meta
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I sideboarded into the control match (running the same deck the logan posted only difference was that i had maelstrom side instead of the last abrupt and a courser instead of eidelon of rhetoric). I have been on this for a while and they just keep creating more cards that just own this deck while very rarely giving it anything to improve. I'm pretty sure that they just dont like this sort of creature toolbox deck in r&d. Which is in a way why they banned twin, due to it being a card grind advantage into a combo finish (they are onlyallowing that in nahiri decks atm). It should give a lot of width and depth with tutoring and valuing cards in, but they keep making more cards every block that wreck this combo and graveyard based decks in general. And then they just invalidate the card advantage from the company by printing ever greater board wipes. The toolbox aspect is not valid without pod at this point and I reaplly dont know if that would bring it back to tier one. I'm just sharing my honest opinion. Im not selling my deck, but I will probably be selling my other deck and making jund. I just don't see this deck staying tier one unless kalitas is banned (which it should be because scooze is good enough) or tron lands are banned.
@TheBullwark: I think you're overreacting. This deck is tier one right now, so the amount of hate you face will be proportional. Cage sucks, Anger sucks, Kalitas sucks, but the meta regulates itself pretty well and if the excessive hate brings down Company numbers people will stop packing hate for it. I mean, if hate cards alone killed a deck Affinity would be long gone by now.
Of your predicted T1, Burn and Infect are favorable/very favorable, Jund is even and Nahiri can be even to slightly unfavorable (Tron is still absolutely awful though). Doesn't seem like a bad place to be. Jund plays 2 Kalitas, we can pack 3 Paths. Mardu decks aren't suddenly going to become tier 1 now, the best Nahiri shell is still Jeskai at the moment (results-wise).
Also, saying R&D hates this deck and doesn't ever want to give it new toys is kinda unfair. How long has it been since Collected Company came out anyway?
2 weeks ago the deck was too good, comparable to Twin. This week Kalitas needs to be banned for the deck to survive. Look at this 4 drop 3/4 NEEDS to be banned in modern. Please have some respect, you are free to give your opinion but please have some respect for the time of people who visit this forum.
Are people that diferent from each other? Or are people just bad at Magic in general? An example of how bad people are at Magic is how long it took for the majority of people to understand that Maelstrom Pulse is the catch all card for this deck, not Abrupt Decay (even if it is a good card, a really good one, does not solve your problems, that way it's not a good call for the deck). It's like, 1 single sb slot, took months for people to at least consider it. 1 sb slot. And that's a ver important slot in this deck. And people needed Logan's article to give it that try.
Im gonna say again that we dont need data for everything, but unless you give us really good reasons for Kalitas to be banned (which you dont have) you should try to not make that to yourself more times in the future. People will laugh at you. You could have multiple Kalitas in the game, the deck would still be viable. We just need to adapt. If there's a magic deck in modern able to adapt, it is our deck.
Archangel of Thune was the last stop. Welcome you all, free games everywhere
I am definitely not disrepecting anyone, I'm just saying I dont think it will be able to put up the same results in modern anymore unless something changes. I think it may be tier two, but I just dont see it doing that well. I have run archangel backup plan, its decent but It doesnt really make the deck more durable
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StaffMTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I've been on a budget build with only 1 heirarch, skite, and voice. I haven't had too many situations where I was dying for more of them. I've actually been enjoying an abolisher over voice for a control(ish) creature. Voice is a solid card, but if I really don't want my opponent scoozing, countering, of burning my combo when I go off I put abolisher in.
I've also had great play value out of angelfeeder. So I've been running singles in my main, it's great to have a bit in combo that ignores the grave and most hate.
See, I know Voice is situational, that's the whole point of silver bullets right, but *this* specific argument is what I just don't get. My mainboard is almost identical to Logan's actually, I just run 2x voice instead of Pontiff and the 4th Witness. How would either of those cards have helped me against the UWR Kiki situation you described?
Maybe I'm not thinking this through, but Pontiff seems way more situational for me. I can't really think of a matchup I'm not already favored in (Affinity, Infect) where I'd want it in the main except for the mirror.
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StaffMTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Oh okay, yeah empty statements like this don't really help without the correct context. This deck is so tune-able that it helps to know the situations so we can all judge based one what we are seeing in our meta. Right now I'm not going to use voice main or Archangel, I'm not going to have 4 Eterenal witness either. Most of the decks here right now use the graveyard and so there is much gy hate as well.. and much needed. I might do 2 Scooze main or something in the place of those, and maybe even an Anafenza, Foremost or Pharika in the side. There are several dredge so I might just go with Foremost. Dredges, Thopter Gifts, Mirror.
Can we get off voice argument and trust that we know how to decide when to use it and decide what's the best thing to deal with Nahiri? Is that gonna be Maelstrom Pulse or something like Celestial Purge? I do feel like black and red has some of the most annoying things right now such as Nahiri, Kalitas, Void, Foundry, Bloodmoon.
4 Chord of Calling
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Eternal Witness
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Fiend Hunter
2 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
3 Viscera Seer
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Wall of Roots
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Razorverge Thicket
3 Path to Exile
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Courser of Kruphix
For those interested, you can find the deck list in the comment section of this wonderfully written article that Mize wrote. Lots of good information in both the article and the comments section. I'm running something similar tomorrow.
Edit: sorry if this is a repost
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth
Flying. Gavony Township gums up the ground and swing in the air.
I guess turn 2 Tidehollow Sculler/Orzhov Pontiff are also relevant.
My roommate picked up B/W Eldrazi & Taxes, and I'm not sure if it's due to his inexperience with the deck, but I feel the matchup is pretty good for us.
Going wide with Gavony Township feels really good, seeing as though their only removal tends to be single target. Do be cautious of a potential Zealous Persecution coming out of their SB, however.
Wall of Roots and Spellskite are both really good in the matchup too, with roots blocking Thought-Knot for days, and spellskite can eat a strangle and kick on afterwards.
I find I don't go for combo much, since they'll usually sit on Path if you start threatening combo.
No experience against the Liege matchup, unfortunately.
I beat an experienced and novice eldrazi tax player last week with relative ease...just keep hands with tons of creatures and go wide. Gavony will be your friend. Some of the worst creatures they have are arbiter and thought-knot. With an Ana on the field their displacer and flicker wisp become a bit moot.
SB I tend to take out the chords as the arbiter makes it less appealing. I main angelfeeder so a rip or cage or relic won't hurt me too bad. But the pridemage exalted will help bashing faces in as well as remove a vial or cage.
Depending on sideboard I would bring in tidehallows/sin collects. Recsage for more artifact hate. Also any creature with a big butt like eidolon or loxodon.
They will have or side in reality smasher so be ready for that turn 3-5. Rips and cages will come in and if u have removal you want to take out the displacer or thought before they strip your hand.
Also birds, gavony, and Ana will be your very best friends
Also, just a suggestion bc I am running budget as well. With only shrine and tomb as your shocks I think 4 Bloodstain would be better than 4 foothills, maybe a 2-2 split? Because if u run into a long game and fetch all 4 green sources and pull a foothill it's a dead draw.
Ave only effect opponents. Its good in the mirror, slows tron if u can get it out early. Also can ax the gifts decks, and almost kills litterally anything that searches.
It has flash so u can leave mana up to chord company or play it. It get hit by company, perfectly good hate card
Re: Tidehollow Sculler
I think it's a solid card vs. an open meta, especially good vs. tron,combo and scapeshift which are all terribad matchups. I'm not sure I love jamming 3-4 but it seems reasonable to try. Very flexible for sure.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
2x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
2x Archangel of Thune
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Courser of Kruphix
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fiend Hunter
4x Kitchen Finks
2x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Murderous Redcap
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Spellskite
1x Spike Feeder
2x Viscera Seer
2x Wall of Roots
2x Forest
2x Gavony Township
1x Godless Shrine
2x Marsh Flats
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
2x Razorverge Thicket
1x Swamp
2x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
Instant (8)
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
1x Anafenza, the Foremost
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Orzhov Pontiff
3x Path to Exile
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Voice of Resurgence
So this is my ripoff of the Article on CHannel fireball. Most things are the same I think there is a 2 card difference. But the archangel of thune and spike feeder combo as another way to go infinite and also infinitely pump our dudes without having to sac anything or put anything in the GY. So we avoid a lot of graveyard hate this way.
Decks
Modern
BGR Jund RGB
BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G
Decks
Modern
BGR Jund RGB
BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G
Of your predicted T1, Burn and Infect are favorable/very favorable, Jund is even and Nahiri can be even to slightly unfavorable (Tron is still absolutely awful though). Doesn't seem like a bad place to be. Jund plays 2 Kalitas, we can pack 3 Paths. Mardu decks aren't suddenly going to become tier 1 now, the best Nahiri shell is still Jeskai at the moment (results-wise).
Also, saying R&D hates this deck and doesn't ever want to give it new toys is kinda unfair. How long has it been since Collected Company came out anyway?
I am definitely not disrepecting anyone, I'm just saying I dont think it will be able to put up the same results in modern anymore unless something changes. I think it may be tier two, but I just dont see it doing that well. I have run archangel backup plan, its decent but It doesnt really make the deck more durable