It's not extra because you would replace land. Siding into it seem to make our deck clunkier, but there are plenty of things to swap out in that match up. I was more skeptical at first, but I had good results with 3 in my sideboard. I haven't lost to Tron yet if they didn't have Tron, but I understand that is just me. It was far better for me than Fulminator was. Also, finding Stomping Ground is not that difficult when you look through your deck for it. You are right about GQ that has happened, but I still won that game by having more time to combo with redcap bc they had played and used a GQ.
Ok, so stomping ground is in your main deck. That saves a SB slot but makes your mana base more awkward against everything that's not Tron. So you are still making some sacrifices. But if Tron is that big of an issue in your local scene, maybe it's with it.
In my case, I'm unwilling to skew my maindeck that much for one matchup. Once in awhile I might just to "get" people, but most of the time I like my lists to be tuned for the widest possible meta. I played Tron twice yesterday, but I might go a few weeks without seeing it again during the local events. Hence, id rather take the risk with something like Fulminator Mage.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Im coming around to the thought of the sg since the majority of your fetches should be able to grab it and most people are running 23 land anyway when 22 is perfectly fine. The more I think about it, its not so clunky. I would just hate to drop a creature slot. I think I will be playtesting and trying it out at least. Fulm doesnt have the same impact unless. You are running liliana main and can recur it. I suppose that could be good, but a lot more effort. I guess the only way to tell is lots of playtesting lol
Also I'm personally much more comfortable with 23 lands than 22, and Stomping Ground is essentially a Forest that costs you 2 life, so it still comes at a cost.
If it's worth it for you it's worth it. I'm just pointing out that there are drawbacks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Also I'm personally much more comfortable with 23 lands than 22, and Stomping Ground is essentially a Forest that costs you 2 life, so it still comes at a cost.
If it's worth it for you it's worth it. I'm just pointing out that there are drawbacks.
There are absolutely drawbacks to configuring the deck to be viable verse Tron. As our worst matchup, individual players have to determine how far they're willing to go.
We also can't assume the meta will go back to the way it was pre-Eldrazi, so we shouldn't assume CoCo should either. That being said, many players found Fulminator Mages to be too slow or not enough impact vs Tron. Those that had success were often in the Crumble to Dust camp. Three in the board plus 1 stomping ground main, usually replacing a forest, although I could see swapping a Horizon Canopy to save on life.
The other option is to ignore Tron and hope to dodge it. We'll see how viable that is as the meta shifts, hopefully away from Eldrazi.
All valid points, I cannot dodge Tron here. Also, there are not many black cards in my deck, I mainly only have to worry about redcap for which red also casts it so.. I can only say in my experience a Stomping Ground has made no difference in life loss or anything. I know it should, I could just have been getting lucky. I don't replace a forest though, blood moon is def a thing here too. My record is way better against Eldrazi than it is for Tron but I'm able to beat them too when I have sideboard slots free from Eldrazi. Our deck varies a lot with play style, so pretty much this...
"There are absolutely drawbacks to configuring the deck to be viable verse Tron. As our worst matchup, individual players have to determine how far they're willing to go."
I think I may well run a second forge tender because the more I think about my games against tron, I may have stood more of a chance or at least given myself an extra turn If I had gotten one because I did get board-wiped 4 out of 4 times against tron lol. Im still learning but I didn't even consider that workaround. I think with their draw effects and reduncy, the fulm is a lot less effective than the crumble. But since I have them maybe I will try like a 3 or 4 of fulm and a two of forge-tender and maindeck a mindsensor because hell thats just a good card anyway. Still looking to slide in some liliana somehow and considering dropping the voices
When is the best time to Include the Spike Feeder + Archangel of Thune combo? Should we be looking at this as a main board option at the moment with all the Eldrazi running around and mirror matches?
Now, if I wanted to include Linvala and Kataki for a wider array of decks, what do you suggest?
I'll be trying a 1/1 angel/feeder split in the main instead of voice.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN GBR Jund Midrange GWU Bant Eldrazi UG UG Infect
Not to be speculating too much about bannings, but I fear an Eye of Ugin ban makes tron better, not worse. They just run Eldrazi temples and play a slightly slower but more powerful RG Eldrazi. I'm not sure why they aren't already doing that, but tron players are stubborn and RG Eldrazi is just an infinitely better deck until the banning.
Public Mod Note
(ktkenshinx):
Warning for Modern banlist discussion outside of the official thread -ktkenshinx-
1- How many lands (please if you don't mind share the number of Gavony Township too) and mana dorks do you play MB? 22 Land, 3 Gavony, 8 dork
2- Do you play any Non-creature spell besides CoCo and Chord MB? If no, how many creatures with cmc>3? No, 1 creature. Redcap
3- Do you play 4 Eternal Witness MB? If yes, have you ever considered 3xEternal Witness + 1xFlickerwisp? No
4- If you do have Sin Collector in your SB do you bring it in against the mirror? How about Jund? Don't have, I bring in the rest of the value so that everything is haymaker
5- Do you still have Linvala in your sideboard? Yes
6- Do you play Reveillark in your sideboard? Or is it just non sense since it is grave based and people are bringing in grave hate? If you do play it, have you ever thought about Saffi Eriksdotter (instead of Dauntless Escort, for example) for some protection and even more combo or is it just too far? I don't because of that reason.
7- What spell (Coco, Chord, Mix) do you SB out when you bring in Path to Exile against Jund? How about Affinity? Against Jund I don't really try to combo, I may take out one CoCo, but usually none. I go to outvalue them since my list is combo game one and a lot of value in board. A lot of their hate cards get blanked or ineffecient, and path stops their less dense threats. If I know their list especially, if they use many hateful guys then I may still try to combo. If they are higher on interaction spells my guys usually deliver the defeat just by being numerous, resilient, and swinging. I pull the redcap out while the paths are in but if CoCo only hits one man it's still enough to mess with Jund. For affinity, still trying to combo but have to take out possibly a coco and a chord.. don't want to wiff or be stacked with chords in that.
8- What's the top 5 cards you don't want to see your opp cast? Please be reasonable don't say something like 5 cards from Tron eheheh Karn, Manaleak, Dispel, reality smasher T2, Graffdigger cage T1
9- What's your top 3 worse Match Ups. And your top 3 best is... TRON is worse, the rest depend on how high I am at the time.
Remember that banlist discussion is prohibited outside of designated threads in Modern General. It's important that deck development stays focused on the deck, not speculation about what may or may not get banned. This is to prevent every deck strategy thread from devolving into satellite banlist discussions. Let me know if anyone has any questions!
I think it would be interesting for all of us to get some numbers about some questions or points. Can some people please answer me these questions?
You guys could even do the same with your own questions if you want too. I'll try to help.
1- How many lands (please if you don't mind share the number of Gavony Township too) and mana dorks do you play MB?
2- Do you play any Non-creature spell besides CoCo and Chord MB? If no, how many creatures with cmc>3?
3- Do you play 4 Eternal Witness MB? If yes, have you ever considered 3xEternal Witness + 1xFlickerwisp?
4- If you do have Sin Collector in your SB do you bring it in against the mirror? How about Jund?
5- Do you still have Linvala in your sideboard?
6- Do you play Reveillark in your sideboard? Or is it just non sense since it is grave based and people are bringing in grave hate? If you do play it, have you ever thought about Saffi Eriksdotter (instead of Dauntless Escort, for example) for some protection and even more combo or is it just too far?
7- What spell (Coco, Chord, Mix) do you SB out when you bring in Path to Exile against Jund? How about Affinity?
8- What's the top 5 cards you don't want to see your opp cast? Please be reasonable don't say something like 5 cards from Tron eheheh
9- What's your top 3 worse Match Ups. And your top 3 best is...
Thank you!
1 - 23 / 3 Gavony Township
I'm pretty excited. Just ordered my 4th Verdant Catacombs and 2nd Horizon Canopy, so I'll have a pretty complete build!!
2 - No.
3 - No -- 3.
4 - I have used SC in my sideboard, without much success. Small sample size.
5 - No.
6 - No. Dauntless Escort is awesome.
7 - Recently I've been using an all creature sideboard to keep with the theme of the deck.
8 - Oblivion Stone, Kozilek's Return, Damnation, Grafdigger's Cage... trying not to say Karn... Leyline of Punishment maybe?
Hey guys, as far as I remember some time ago the split between CoCo/Chord was 4/3 and the reason was to not have too many clunky hands. Was that the real reason? Is it still valid somehow? Because Im only seeing 4/4 nowadays.
A fair amount of the time when someone ran 3 Chords it was because they had an Abrupt Decay or something similar in the main deck and didn't want to further dilute their Companies. To be honest I always thought that was silly and ran the 4 Chords anyways. The value on them is unreal.
Old chord decks run less chord because it is so bad against remands, and Abrupt Decay was in the main.
That was old stuff in Splinter Twin era.
-
A Japanese player in GP Melbourne told me to board in Sin Collector on the play in the mirror (11th Place). I'm pretty sure Matt Rogers board that in also (PTOGW 9-1, GP Melb top 32).
Chord is a bad card vs. jund and it's safe to just swap several out out for paths. Chord gets inquisitioned and is a 1-for-1 that is unlikely to hit the combo.
My sideboard plan vs. Jund has been some variant of:
-3 chord
-2 spellskite
-1 noble hierarch
-1 viscera seer
-1 melira
+3 voice
+3 path
+1 Linvala
+1 evolutionary leap
It varies depending on how much value I have in my sideboard and how I'm feeling but you can take out hierarchs, combo pieces other than finks, chords, spellskites, etc.
But you never take out value cards -- witnesses, finks, cocos always stay in.
Ok, so stomping ground is in your main deck. That saves a SB slot but makes your mana base more awkward against everything that's not Tron. So you are still making some sacrifices. But if Tron is that big of an issue in your local scene, maybe it's with it.
In my case, I'm unwilling to skew my maindeck that much for one matchup. Once in awhile I might just to "get" people, but most of the time I like my lists to be tuned for the widest possible meta. I played Tron twice yesterday, but I might go a few weeks without seeing it again during the local events. Hence, id rather take the risk with something like Fulminator Mage.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Also I'm personally much more comfortable with 23 lands than 22, and Stomping Ground is essentially a Forest that costs you 2 life, so it still comes at a cost.
If it's worth it for you it's worth it. I'm just pointing out that there are drawbacks.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
There are absolutely drawbacks to configuring the deck to be viable verse Tron. As our worst matchup, individual players have to determine how far they're willing to go.
We also can't assume the meta will go back to the way it was pre-Eldrazi, so we shouldn't assume CoCo should either. That being said, many players found Fulminator Mages to be too slow or not enough impact vs Tron. Those that had success were often in the Crumble to Dust camp. Three in the board plus 1 stomping ground main, usually replacing a forest, although I could see swapping a Horizon Canopy to save on life.
The other option is to ignore Tron and hope to dodge it. We'll see how viable that is as the meta shifts, hopefully away from Eldrazi.
"There are absolutely drawbacks to configuring the deck to be viable verse Tron. As our worst matchup, individual players have to determine how far they're willing to go."
GWR Naya Zoo
GRBreach
WGBCo-Co
Legacy
RUBSneak And Show
I would steer clear of forge tender these days, getting blown out by Kozilek's return is a bad place to be.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
*****decks, no affinity and no mirror1 Dauntless Escort
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Path to Exile
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thoughtseize
2 Voice of Resurgence
Now, if I wanted to include Linvala and Kataki for a wider array of decks, what do you suggest?
I'll be trying a 1/1 angel/feeder split in the main instead of voice.
GBR Jund Midrange
GWU Bant Eldrazi
UG UG Infect
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
might cut voice from it and add angel/feeder
GBR Jund Midrange
GWU Bant Eldrazi
UG UG Infect
2- Do you play any Non-creature spell besides CoCo and Chord MB? If no, how many creatures with cmc>3? No, 1 creature. Redcap
3- Do you play 4 Eternal Witness MB? If yes, have you ever considered 3xEternal Witness + 1xFlickerwisp? No
4- If you do have Sin Collector in your SB do you bring it in against the mirror? How about Jund? Don't have, I bring in the rest of the value so that everything is haymaker
5- Do you still have Linvala in your sideboard? Yes
6- Do you play Reveillark in your sideboard? Or is it just non sense since it is grave based and people are bringing in grave hate? If you do play it, have you ever thought about Saffi Eriksdotter (instead of Dauntless Escort, for example) for some protection and even more combo or is it just too far? I don't because of that reason.
7- What spell (Coco, Chord, Mix) do you SB out when you bring in Path to Exile against Jund? How about Affinity? Against Jund I don't really try to combo, I may take out one CoCo, but usually none. I go to outvalue them since my list is combo game one and a lot of value in board. A lot of their hate cards get blanked or ineffecient, and path stops their less dense threats. If I know their list especially, if they use many hateful guys then I may still try to combo. If they are higher on interaction spells my guys usually deliver the defeat just by being numerous, resilient, and swinging. I pull the redcap out while the paths are in but if CoCo only hits one man it's still enough to mess with Jund. For affinity, still trying to combo but have to take out possibly a coco and a chord.. don't want to wiff or be stacked with chords in that.
8- What's the top 5 cards you don't want to see your opp cast? Please be reasonable don't say something like 5 cards from Tron eheheh Karn, Manaleak, Dispel, reality smasher T2, Graffdigger cage T1
9- What's your top 3 worse Match Ups. And your top 3 best is... TRON is worse, the rest depend on how high I am at the time.
2- No. Just Redcap.
3- No. 3 Witness.
4- Yes and yes. Haven't been disappointed with Sin Collector so far.
5- Nope.
6- No Reveillark, due to GY hate and anti-synergy with CoCo.
7- Board out a couple of Chords against Jund. Keep 4 Chords and 4 CoCos in for affinity.
8- Kozilek's Return, Anger of the Gods, Grafdigger's Cage, most board wipes and hate cards.
9- Best: Infect, Burn, Zoo. Worst: Tron, Scapeshift, any combo deck that's faster than us.
1 - 23 / 3 Gavony Township
I'm pretty excited. Just ordered my 4th Verdant Catacombs and 2nd Horizon Canopy, so I'll have a pretty complete build!!
2 - No.
3 - No -- 3.
4 - I have used SC in my sideboard, without much success. Small sample size.
5 - No.
6 - No. Dauntless Escort is awesome.
7 - Recently I've been using an all creature sideboard to keep with the theme of the deck.
8 - Oblivion Stone, Kozilek's Return, Damnation, Grafdigger's Cage... trying not to say Karn... Leyline of Punishment maybe?
9 - WORST: Tron, Bloodmoon, Tron.
BEST: Eldrazi, Eldrazi, Burn
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
That was old stuff in Splinter Twin era.
-
A Japanese player in GP Melbourne told me to board in Sin Collector on the play in the mirror (11th Place). I'm pretty sure Matt Rogers board that in also (PTOGW 9-1, GP Melb top 32).
Chord is a bad card vs. jund and it's safe to just swap several out out for paths. Chord gets inquisitioned and is a 1-for-1 that is unlikely to hit the combo.
My sideboard plan vs. Jund has been some variant of:
-3 chord
-2 spellskite
-1 noble hierarch
-1 viscera seer
-1 melira
+3 voice
+3 path
+1 Linvala
+1 evolutionary leap
It varies depending on how much value I have in my sideboard and how I'm feeling but you can take out hierarchs, combo pieces other than finks, chords, spellskites, etc.
But you never take out value cards -- witnesses, finks, cocos always stay in.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall