For me it's mostly fast unfair decks the ones I have most trouble with (Tron, Amulet, Grishoaldbrand, Elves) the last two are beatable via infinite life, but many times you simply won't be fast enough. Fish can be anoying too if they draw a couple spreading seas and a vapor snag. The twin matchup usually doesnt bother me much, but I do play some decays maindeck as well as stain the mind from the side wich, if it resolves, makes them unable to win trough infinite life.
I guess it depends on how is anyone's list tuned, if you are worried about the big mana decks adding fulminators and lilis to the sb could be a good idea. In my loca meta is mostly twin and "fair" midrange decks so that is what I tuned my list for.
This raises a question for me: What is the reasoning behind leaving the grindy value oriented versions of the deck for a more all in combo (like the Logan Mize last decklist)? I see that most of you are going that direction, but I don't know if it is a meta call or what.
For me it's mostly fast unfair decks the ones I have most trouble with (Tron, Amulet, Grishoaldbrand, Elves) the last two are beatable via infinite life, but many times you simply won't be fast enough. Fish can be anoying too if they draw a couple spreading seas and a vapor snag. The twin matchup usually doesnt bother me much, but I do play some decays maindeck as well as stain the mind from the side wich, if it resolves, makes them unable to win trough infinite life.
I guess it depends on how is anyone's list tuned, if you are worried about the big mana decks adding fulminators and lilis to the sb could be a good idea. In my loca meta is mostly twin and "fair" midrange decks so that is what I tuned my list for.
This raises a question for me: What is the reasoning behind leaving the grindy value oriented versions of the deck for a more all in combo (like the Logan Mize last decklist)? I see that most of you are going that direction, but I don't know if it is a meta call or what.
Mostly because there are way more decks we can beat by comboing off than we can beat by grinding value. Merfolk, Burn, Affinity, BGx, all linear combo are pretty much best dealt with by combo killing them as fast as possible game 1. What game 1 matchups do you think are better for us by starting out value focused?
For me it's mostly fast unfair decks the ones I have most trouble with (Tron, Amulet, Grishoaldbrand, Elves) the last two are beatable via infinite life, but many times you simply won't be fast enough. Fish can be anoying too if they draw a couple spreading seas and a vapor snag. The twin matchup usually doesnt bother me much, but I do play some decays maindeck as well as stain the mind from the side wich, if it resolves, makes them unable to win trough infinite life.
I guess it depends on how is anyone's list tuned, if you are worried about the big mana decks adding fulminators and lilis to the sb could be a good idea. In my loca meta is mostly twin and "fair" midrange decks so that is what I tuned my list for.
This raises a question for me: What is the reasoning behind leaving the grindy value oriented versions of the deck for a more all in combo (like the Logan Mize last decklist)? I see that most of you are going that direction, but I don't know if it is a meta call or what.
Mostly because there are way more decks we can beat by comboing off than we can beat by grinding value. Merfolk, Burn, Affinity, BGx, all linear combo are pretty much best dealt with by combo killing them as fast as possible game 1. What game 1 matchups do you think are better for us by starting out value focused?
I think that the value focused deck allows us to play more silver bullets than the other versions. Also, any deck with mainboard graveyard hate (Scavenging ooze for example)+ interaction, is almost imposible to combo against. At least that is my experience.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
-Currently playing:
Modern Project AnafenzaBGW
Modern KnightfallGRUW
Recently bought 4x tarmogoyf. Considering what to play next.
-Proud Selesnyan Guildmage and Dromoka's Follower.
Interaction is easy to combo against in the combo focused build. It's why you run spellskites and witnesses, you can just overload Jund/Junks removal and go off anyway. Scooze is a problem for sure, you can sometimes combo through it anyway, and most decks are only running a couple copies of it so you're more likely not to see it before turn 4 when you can win anyway. At any rate, the only deck mainboarding scooze is GBx and trying to out value goyf, bob, lilly and Olivia is a losing proposition anyway when combo killing them is so much easier.
As for silver bullets, other than skite against Twin (which combo builds run) what silver bullets are you running and in what matchups are they better than just combo winning on turn 4 anyway?
I see your point, I just didn't think that the combo was even an option against a deck with hand disruption, and the amount of removal that jund/junk/grixis bring to the table. It allways seemed unrealistic to me. I just realized that I haven't posted my list yet. This is what I am running currently: (I am considering going for a more combo oriented version, so I would like to hear your opinions)
The thing to remember with interaction and the combo versions is how ridiculously redundant our deck is. 4 chord of calling means we're effectively running 7 seers, 8 persist enablers, and 8 finks. Then there are 3-4 eternal witnesses to bring back d ad combo pieces from the yard and collected company that just sort of wins some times. In my experience removal based decks like BGx or UW have a very hard time keeping up with the redundancy we bring. UR decks on the other hand are a whole other issue and I've had very little luck as counter spells are extremely good against us. I'll usually go more grindy in game 2 against tempo decks but it still feels bad as voice never resolves through counters, nor does company so we just kind of flounder around helplessly
The thing to remember with interaction and the combo versions is how ridiculously redundant our deck is. 4 chord of calling means we're effectively running 7 seers, 8 persist enablers, and 8 finks. Then there are 3-4 eternal witnesses to bring back d ad combo pieces from the yard and collected company that just sort of wins some times. In my experience removal based decks like BGx or UW have a very hard time keeping up with the redundancy we bring. UR decks on the other hand are a whole other issue and I've had very little luck as counter spells are extremely good against us. I'll usually go more grindy in game 2 against tempo decks but it still feels bad as voice never resolves through counters, nor does company so we just kind of flounder around helplessly
This is why I suggest Rally the Ancestors: it works very well against anything that puts your creatures in the yard, and due to being an Instant like Chord and Company, it can be used in conjunction with either of those two cards during your opponent's end step and your own upkeep (before the trigger resolves) to potentially combo out (Seer can be activated at any time like an Instant). Such a good insurance policy in my honest opinion.
Barring that though, the best bet against Counterspell.dec is to stick an early Noble Hierarch or Viscera Seer and start swinging until they tap out for removal or a threat. If they keep trying to make their land drops and hold counter mana open, try baiting counters out with EoT Instants, or if you really want to put pressure on them, use Gavony Township.
That is exactly the point I wanted to make though. Yes we are resilient and redundant, but many times when you are missing a piece of the combo, either because they killed/countered/discarded it, I feel that the deck starts durdling arround and playing some pretty expensive spells with a really low impact on the board by themselves. And you can't just wait it out untill you get both the mana and the missing piece, because thanks to tasigur and tarmogoyf nowdays you won't get all the time in the world, this midrange decks can and will shift gears pretty quick and kill you in a couple of swings. That is why I like playing at least some creatures that have to be dealt with or else they will take over the game by themselves.
I absolutely agree that the combo seems to be the way to go against a more unfair meta, but I'm not completely sold on the reasons you give against more controling decks. Yes, you will eventually combo off, but they can keep you out of balance enough time to finish you off with their higly efficient beaters.
The problem I see with rally is that it is yet another really expensive instant spell, and I allredy have a hard time beating Dispel. I think that for that role evolutionary leap gives you more resilience. But it is a card worth considering, and I might get a couple of them to test; at the very least, I will surprise my oponent.
That is exactly the point I wanted to make though. Yes we are resilient and redundant, but many times when you are missing a piece of the combo, either because they killed/countered/discarded it, I feel that the deck starts durdling arround and playing some pretty expensive spells with a really low impact on the board by themselves. And you can't just wait it out untill you get both the mana and the missing piece, because thanks to tasigur and tarmogoyf nowdays you won't get all the time in the world, this midrange decks can and will shift gears pretty quick and kill you in a couple of swings. That is why I like playing at least some creatures that have to be dealt with or else they will take over the game by themselves
I would suggest trying the combo version before making up your mind. If your combo pieces are getting killed and you have other creatures in play, chord isn't expensive at all, in fact with wall of roots I've chorded twice on turn 4 for a finks and a seer to take the win. You're also never durdling around, if you're not getting your combo game firing, you're activating your Gavony township to make your disjointed combo pieces into a dangerous board. The deck can shift into a creature damage deck very easily if the combo isn't happening, but the combo is still a far more powerful plan than any value based version of this deck is ever going to be. If the deck is ever "durdling around waiting for mana" things have gone horribly wrong and your opponent has stopped you from building any kind of board at all, which is the kind of draw that Lilliana heretical healer or any other value additions are not going to be any better at beating.
Generally speaking you aren't waiting around for combo pieces to hopefully get top decked. Most reasonable hands you keep can get all four pieces by turn four, and with chord, witness and company it's very easy to replace pieces that get killed.
FWIW, rather than take my word for it you can look at Logan Mize's deck list and see that he's been doing quite well with it. At that level of competitive play he's not hoping to dodge decks with interaction, the deck just assembles the combo right through interaction with a high degree of consistency.
In regards to Leap, I just hate the idea of having to leave mana open to trade field presence for blind card advantage, and in the few games I actually brought it in, I was unimpressed (whereas the single game I drew a singleton Rally floored me). I would suggest siding either Athreos, God of Passage if you're afraid of BGx Hellbent Midrange (immune to Decay, more opportunity to abuse trigger due to removal) or Liliana, Heretical Healer if you're afraid of Ux Counterspell Control (Control being hellbent is worse than us being hellbent).
*sigh* I need to finish my build and actually grind a few locals ... XMage can only do so much.
We're a GWb deck, double white is awkward enough sometimes, double white and double black is horrendous. Also he's just a big expensive beater with no evasion and an insignificant drain effect. If we wanted such things we'd play siege rhino, and we don't want those things anyway. "Grindy" means we're running into lots of removal, tapping 5 mana to eat a terminate is awful in that setup. In that matchup you want card advantage or permanents that your opponents have a hard time interacting with. Ghost dad is neither
I think the Jund (and any removal based) MU is 50/50 or slightly favorable for us. You are too worried about removal and discard.
The typical package being discussed right now runs 4 finks, 3-4 witness, and 3-4 voices. That gives us 10-12 creatures that effectively have to be killed twice in order for Jund's primary plan of "kill everything" to actually work.
Perhaps the best part about this is that you don't have to take any of the combo out for that to already be the case. maybe you shuffle some of your value cards around, maybe you side stuff out for Evo Leap, maybe you don't. Either way, you are fully capable of playing a value game against Jund, Grixis and the like.
I have already discussed how gaining a million life effectively wins the game vs these MUs and you can very rudely force a game to end quickly by establishing you have more cards in your library than your opponent, calling a judge and explaining the situation, and constantly passing priority to your opponent. There is literally no way they can win the game from that point and it should be over in <10 minutes once you establish a mutual understanding of the situation.
Removal/discard heavy decks are not nearly as hopeless as you might initially think.
I think the Jund (and any removal based) MU is 50/50 or slightly favorable for us. You are too worried about removal and discard.
The typical package being discussed right now runs 4 finks, 3-4 witness, and 3-4 voices. That gives us 10-12 creatures that effectively have to be killed twice in order for Jund's primary plan of "kill everything" to actually work.
Perhaps the best part about this is that you don't have to take any of the combo out for that to already be the case. maybe you shuffle some of your value cards around, maybe you side stuff out for Evo Leap, maybe you don't. Either way, you are fully capable of playing a value game against Jund, Grixis and the like.
I have already discussed how gaining a million life effectively wins the game vs these MUs and you can very rudely force a game to end quickly by establishing you have more cards in your library than your opponent, calling a judge and explaining the situation, and constantly passing priority to your opponent. There is literally no way they can win the game from that point and it should be over in <10 minutes once you establish a mutual understanding of the situation.
Removal/discard heavy decks are not nearly as hopeless as you might initially think.
Oh, I'm not afraid of the fairer matchups like Abzan, Jund, and Grixis. I'm just suggesting alternatives to Leap for when you have to outvalue the opponent, and, to be honest, I'm torn between Athreos and Healiana (and maybe Fecundity/Grim Haruspex).
In fact, I'm more afraid of Tron and Bloom, but not much I can do for those matchups.
What's our gameplan when it comes to Delver decks. One or two have popped up in my meta. The seem to have such cheap interaction that it's hard for things to stick, we also have very little interaction.
Congratulations on your RPTQ finishes guys; really nice results. Really good to know that the deck is still putting up results in big tournaments.
I am curious to know in wich MUs did you bring the voices in G2, because I'm not used to them being in the SB yet. Also, how did Qasali maindeck performed for you? I was a big fan at the begining but lately he doesn't seem to have that many targets.
How many times did you combo and against what decks? I see some difficult MUs for the combo and I would love to know how did that go.
One last thing: What do you recomend to avoid going to turns? Lately I'm having trouble finishing my rounds in time, and this wasn't an issue for me even when I was playing UWR Control, so I don't think it's because I'm playing too slow. It just seems that if I don't get the combo or a gavony, it's almost impossible to kill the oponent in a reasonable amount of time. On the bright side though I usually end up winning those long games.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
-Currently playing:
Modern Project AnafenzaBGW
Modern KnightfallGRUW
Recently bought 4x tarmogoyf. Considering what to play next.
-Proud Selesnyan Guildmage and Dromoka's Follower.
Last minute changes were swapping one Voice for 1 Qasali and 1 Noble for 1 Spellskite in the main. When I promoted Qasali from the SB, I just backfilled him with Athreos because people are talking about it and I wanted to try it out.
Round 1: Bogles
This is like 80-90% in our favor I think, especially with 4 chords, 2 spellskites, and a Qasali in the main. G1 was frustrating as I hit 4 CoCos and managed to find 0 Qasalis and 0 Spellskites and didn't complete my combo. I ended up chump blocking his big dude with my Cartel Aristocrat, saccing for Pro-Green long enough to assemble the combo and lock the game up.
G2 I felt a bit worse. The kid is 10 and with Ana and Seer on board, I Chorded for 3 and he had the idea that he would path in response to finks entering the battlefield. We ended up having to call a judge to resolve it and so started the theme of the day: "Rules, Rules, Rules".
1-0
Round 2: Goblins
While I initially was happy because the day was shaping up to go well, G1 he went Legion Loyalist > Piledriver > Rabblemaster. He killed me half a turn before I could go to a million. Between games we chatted about how damn good his hand was and he tried to claim "that's just a run of the mill hand" I had to call him on his BS. I have goblins, you HOPE half your hands are that good. ANYWAY...
G2 was no real contest, I hit an early combo and he scooped.
G3 he got me down to 2 before I combo'd out again and he decided that we have the time so lets play it out and see what happens. Next turn he Pyroclasms (he later revealed he had 4 MB Pyroclasms) I don't know, dude gets crazy style points I guess...
2-0
Round 3: Burn
All good things must come to an end at some point. While I think burn is favorable for us, you need a good opener and you need a chance to do something. I kind of got that in G1, but I wasn't bold enough to make the move. The game essentially came down to a point where I had Finks in play and an Overgrown Tomb, Viscera Seer, and Chord of Calling in hand. I decided to hold back as I was at 10 and going down to 8 seemed too risky, so I brought the Tomb into play tapped, got knocked down to 7 the next turn, and in response to Viscera Seer, he Bolt-Boros'd me. If I had taken the shock damage, I would have been able to wait it out and Chord for infinite life if he goes for the kill. Worst case, I would have at least lived another turn.
G2 I hold off the aggro long enough, he gets antsy with 2 skullcracks in hand and plays a value crack at the end of my turn. Chord for combo in response and go to a million.
G3 Really wasn't close, he did what burn does and basically had the game locked up by turn 3. I think I was at 1 and didn't have any meaningful plays so I scooped.
2-1 Still capable of easing my way into top 8 if I win next round.
Round 4: Merfolk
G1 was a little back and forth, I don't think I ever went below 14 really and eventually assembled a combo.
G2 I kept a fetch, gavony, bird, bird hand. He goes T1 vial, I go T1 fetch a temple garden into bird. He goes T2 Spreading Seas on the garden. I think I played T2 Melira or some *****. He goes T3 vial in a Tidebinder on the bird. I miss my 3rd land and am cut off from casting my other bird... I offer up Melira for trade. He takes it and vials in another Tidebinder on the bird. T4 I hit an overgrown tomb and play my 2nd bird. He hits a 3rd tidebinder on my other bird. I could say maybe I should have played the T2 bird as well, but ultimately I doubt it mattered. 3 tidebinders + Spreading Seas + Gavony + missing 3rd land made the game basically unplayable.
G3 We have a good back and forth that ends up with me at 7 and him attacking with 2 mutavaults, Rejeerey, and a Tidebinder. I block Rejeerey with Finks, Tidebinder with a Witness and figure the mutavaults will take me down to 1. I have Seer on board so I'm not worried about vapor snag or anything and he doesn't have any vial tricks. He says "game?" I say "No, I'm at 1?" He calls the judge. He had me at 6, I had myself at 7. We both know I have Melira in hand and another card (which was Redcap) I had 6 lands, only one 1 black source though so as long as the judge rules that I can at the very least sac my finks to prevent myself from dying, the game isn't OVER, but I'm very-very much on one more live draw.
After like 10 minutes of deliberation and looking all sorts of stuff up online, we establish that what happened is I missed paying 1 life to fetch. That's how I got to 6 in his books, and again, I'm fine with that. Can I sac Finks to live? The judge ultimately ruled against me using the fact that I was using dice to track my life total as his reasoning. It is not considered an appropriate way to track life totals and therefore the fact that I was wrong was totally my fault and I don't get to take back decisions or anything based on using inferior tracking and missing my own "pay 1 life". He didn't take all the blame off my opponent, but it was a pretty honest mistake on both sides, my opponent wasn't aware that I thought I was at 7 until I was dead. I would have just liked the opportunity to take advantage of the on-board, instant ability to rectify the situation and go to 2 and killing nothing instead of losing the game on the spot.
2-2 Oddly enough, as long as I win the next game, I'm STILL in top8 contention.
Round 5: Abzan
This is such a good MU. People get all crazy about the removal, but really it wasn't a big deal at all.
G1 We trade pieces a bit, I block his Rhino with a Wall of Roots, which was actually important from his perspective because it kept me from Chording at the end of his turn or anything. True. I had Finks in play, untap, draw, Chord for Ana, pass turn, he fetches at EoT leaving 1 green open, I respond by Chording for Seer and gaining a million.
G2 he opens with a Scooze and messes up in T4 by playing Lili and leaving no green open. I had Ana and Finks on board and Seer in hand but decided that would be too easy so lets gamble a bit, so I go for a CoCo, hit nothing useful and pass the turn back. The game evolves into me having 3 finks on board, a huge ass elemental token, no ladies, and fighting the nitty-gritty. I clear up his board, including 2 finks toward Lili. The next turn, I attack his face for 20 damage and the win. He responds by activating some man lands, I CoCo in response and hit a million life combo, GG!
3-2 This puts me in 9th place. Top 6 will likely ID into place, but 7th and 8th are forced to play it out as are myself and 10th.
Round 6: Jeskai Delver
G1 starts out with me playing some dudes and him removing them. Around turn 4, he puts 2 delvers into play, which flip immediately and he starts the beatdown. I am one turn away from going off when he hits me for 10 and says "game?" I have myself at 11... I am about to freak out as this JUST happened and he says "oh, Vapor Snag, I knew my math wasn't wrong." Jerk...
G2 Path is a beast. He starts out by hitting my bird with a T2 vapor snag, which forced me to flash in my Mindcensor early so that I could keep up my pressure and actually contest the board. I hit him for 2 with the Mindcensor, he plays geist, I pass back, he paths the mindcensor and attacks with the geist, I CoCo and block the geist with Finks. He Path's the finks. I get a Voice into play, he snap-path's the voice. I think I played another finks and he snap-paths that one too. I end the game with 8 land in play, Chord up Redcap to kill his Delver, which was the only thing he had left on board. He activates Celestial Colonnade and swings in over the top for the win.
I ended up in 14th place, collected my 3 packs and went home.
I didn't mention Athreos but I DID play him in my Delver game and my Merfolk game. He ended up turning my guys into bolts when the die, but I never got anything back. I'm still not sure he's worth it even in value MUs as we rarely win through beatdowns and pressure. I will likely go back to just the 2 Evo Leaps.
I also think it's time to drop Lili, here's my next try at the deck:
I just dont understand why people are still playing voice in the main??
I guarantee that all of you win 95% of your game 1s with the combo. Voice does nothing to help this at all. Does it stop the opponent from killing your guy? Does it stop them from activating scavenging ooze?
You all are just wasting good slots and making your draws G1 slightly worse. Same goes for pridemage...wasted slot.
I just dont understand why people are still playing voice in the main??
I guarantee that all of you win 95% of your game 1s with the combo. Voice does nothing to help this at all. Does it stop the opponent from killing your guy? Does it stop them from activating scavenging ooze?
You all are just wasting good slots and making your draws G1 slightly worse. Same goes for pridemage...wasted slot.
yeah, i realized this after playing with this deck a lot. voice didn't do anything to help me combo, and every time i had one game one i wished it was a spellskite or a combo piece.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I guess it depends on how is anyone's list tuned, if you are worried about the big mana decks adding fulminators and lilis to the sb could be a good idea. In my loca meta is mostly twin and "fair" midrange decks so that is what I tuned my list for.
This raises a question for me: What is the reasoning behind leaving the grindy value oriented versions of the deck for a more all in combo (like the Logan Mize last decklist)? I see that most of you are going that direction, but I don't know if it is a meta call or what.
Modern Project AnafenzaBGW
Modern KnightfallGRUW
Recently bought 4x tarmogoyf. Considering what to play next.
-Proud Selesnyan Guildmage and Dromoka's Follower.
-Level 1 Judge
Mostly because there are way more decks we can beat by comboing off than we can beat by grinding value. Merfolk, Burn, Affinity, BGx, all linear combo are pretty much best dealt with by combo killing them as fast as possible game 1. What game 1 matchups do you think are better for us by starting out value focused?
I think that the value focused deck allows us to play more silver bullets than the other versions. Also, any deck with mainboard graveyard hate (Scavenging ooze for example)+ interaction, is almost imposible to combo against. At least that is my experience.
Modern Project AnafenzaBGW
Modern KnightfallGRUW
Recently bought 4x tarmogoyf. Considering what to play next.
-Proud Selesnyan Guildmage and Dromoka's Follower.
-Level 1 Judge
As for silver bullets, other than skite against Twin (which combo builds run) what silver bullets are you running and in what matchups are they better than just combo winning on turn 4 anyway?
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Spellskite
2 Viscera Seer
2 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
3 Eternal Witness
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Voice of Resurgence
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Wall of Roots
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Fiend Hunter
3 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
2 Abrupt Decay
Lands 22
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Gavony Township
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Spellskite
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Stony Silence
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2 Stain the Mind
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Choke
1 Evolutionary Leap
Modern Project AnafenzaBGW
Modern KnightfallGRUW
Recently bought 4x tarmogoyf. Considering what to play next.
-Proud Selesnyan Guildmage and Dromoka's Follower.
-Level 1 Judge
This is why I suggest Rally the Ancestors: it works very well against anything that puts your creatures in the yard, and due to being an Instant like Chord and Company, it can be used in conjunction with either of those two cards during your opponent's end step and your own upkeep (before the trigger resolves) to potentially combo out (Seer can be activated at any time like an Instant). Such a good insurance policy in my honest opinion.
Barring that though, the best bet against Counterspell.dec is to stick an early Noble Hierarch or Viscera Seer and start swinging until they tap out for removal or a threat. If they keep trying to make their land drops and hold counter mana open, try baiting counters out with EoT Instants, or if you really want to put pressure on them, use Gavony Township.
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
I absolutely agree that the combo seems to be the way to go against a more unfair meta, but I'm not completely sold on the reasons you give against more controling decks. Yes, you will eventually combo off, but they can keep you out of balance enough time to finish you off with their higly efficient beaters.
The problem I see with rally is that it is yet another really expensive instant spell, and I allredy have a hard time beating Dispel. I think that for that role evolutionary leap gives you more resilience. But it is a card worth considering, and I might get a couple of them to test; at the very least, I will surprise my oponent.
Modern Project AnafenzaBGW
Modern KnightfallGRUW
Recently bought 4x tarmogoyf. Considering what to play next.
-Proud Selesnyan Guildmage and Dromoka's Follower.
-Level 1 Judge
I would suggest trying the combo version before making up your mind. If your combo pieces are getting killed and you have other creatures in play, chord isn't expensive at all, in fact with wall of roots I've chorded twice on turn 4 for a finks and a seer to take the win. You're also never durdling around, if you're not getting your combo game firing, you're activating your Gavony township to make your disjointed combo pieces into a dangerous board. The deck can shift into a creature damage deck very easily if the combo isn't happening, but the combo is still a far more powerful plan than any value based version of this deck is ever going to be. If the deck is ever "durdling around waiting for mana" things have gone horribly wrong and your opponent has stopped you from building any kind of board at all, which is the kind of draw that Lilliana heretical healer or any other value additions are not going to be any better at beating.
Generally speaking you aren't waiting around for combo pieces to hopefully get top decked. Most reasonable hands you keep can get all four pieces by turn four, and with chord, witness and company it's very easy to replace pieces that get killed.
FWIW, rather than take my word for it you can look at Logan Mize's deck list and see that he's been doing quite well with it. At that level of competitive play he's not hoping to dodge decks with interaction, the deck just assembles the combo right through interaction with a high degree of consistency.
*sigh* I need to finish my build and actually grind a few locals ... XMage can only do so much.
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
I think the Jund (and any removal based) MU is 50/50 or slightly favorable for us. You are too worried about removal and discard.
The typical package being discussed right now runs 4 finks, 3-4 witness, and 3-4 voices. That gives us 10-12 creatures that effectively have to be killed twice in order for Jund's primary plan of "kill everything" to actually work.
Perhaps the best part about this is that you don't have to take any of the combo out for that to already be the case. maybe you shuffle some of your value cards around, maybe you side stuff out for Evo Leap, maybe you don't. Either way, you are fully capable of playing a value game against Jund, Grixis and the like.
I have already discussed how gaining a million life effectively wins the game vs these MUs and you can very rudely force a game to end quickly by establishing you have more cards in your library than your opponent, calling a judge and explaining the situation, and constantly passing priority to your opponent. There is literally no way they can win the game from that point and it should be over in <10 minutes once you establish a mutual understanding of the situation.
Removal/discard heavy decks are not nearly as hopeless as you might initially think.
Oh, I'm not afraid of the fairer matchups like Abzan, Jund, and Grixis. I'm just suggesting alternatives to Leap for when you have to outvalue the opponent, and, to be honest, I'm torn between Athreos and Healiana (and maybe Fecundity/Grim Haruspex).
In fact, I'm more afraid of Tron and Bloom, but not much I can do for those matchups.
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
Bring in your removal and voices.
I am curious to know in wich MUs did you bring the voices in G2, because I'm not used to them being in the SB yet. Also, how did Qasali maindeck performed for you? I was a big fan at the begining but lately he doesn't seem to have that many targets.
How many times did you combo and against what decks? I see some difficult MUs for the combo and I would love to know how did that go.
One last thing: What do you recomend to avoid going to turns? Lately I'm having trouble finishing my rounds in time, and this wasn't an issue for me even when I was playing UWR Control, so I don't think it's because I'm playing too slow. It just seems that if I don't get the combo or a gavony, it's almost impossible to kill the oponent in a reasonable amount of time. On the bright side though I usually end up winning those long games.
Modern Project AnafenzaBGW
Modern KnightfallGRUW
Recently bought 4x tarmogoyf. Considering what to play next.
-Proud Selesnyan Guildmage and Dromoka's Follower.
-Level 1 Judge
Here's what I ended up playing.
2x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
1x Cartel Aristocrat
4x Kitchen Finks
2x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Murderous Redcap
2x Viscera Seer
Dorks(8)
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Wall of Roots
2x Noble Hierarch
Value(10)
4x Eternal Witness
1x Fiend Hunter
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Spellskite
2x Voice of Resurgence
2x Forest
3x Gavony Township
1x Godless Shrine
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Swamp
2x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
Instant (8)
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Athreos, God of Passage
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
2x Choke
2x Evolutionary Leap
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Liliana, Heretical Healer
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Orzhov Pontiff
1x Path to Exile
1x Scavenging Ooze
Last minute changes were swapping one Voice for 1 Qasali and 1 Noble for 1 Spellskite in the main. When I promoted Qasali from the SB, I just backfilled him with Athreos because people are talking about it and I wanted to try it out.
Round 1: Bogles
This is like 80-90% in our favor I think, especially with 4 chords, 2 spellskites, and a Qasali in the main. G1 was frustrating as I hit 4 CoCos and managed to find 0 Qasalis and 0 Spellskites and didn't complete my combo. I ended up chump blocking his big dude with my Cartel Aristocrat, saccing for Pro-Green long enough to assemble the combo and lock the game up.
G2 I felt a bit worse. The kid is 10 and with Ana and Seer on board, I Chorded for 3 and he had the idea that he would path in response to finks entering the battlefield. We ended up having to call a judge to resolve it and so started the theme of the day: "Rules, Rules, Rules".
1-0
Round 2: Goblins
While I initially was happy because the day was shaping up to go well, G1 he went Legion Loyalist > Piledriver > Rabblemaster. He killed me half a turn before I could go to a million. Between games we chatted about how damn good his hand was and he tried to claim "that's just a run of the mill hand" I had to call him on his BS. I have goblins, you HOPE half your hands are that good. ANYWAY...
G2 was no real contest, I hit an early combo and he scooped.
G3 he got me down to 2 before I combo'd out again and he decided that we have the time so lets play it out and see what happens. Next turn he Pyroclasms (he later revealed he had 4 MB Pyroclasms) I don't know, dude gets crazy style points I guess...
2-0
Round 3: Burn
All good things must come to an end at some point. While I think burn is favorable for us, you need a good opener and you need a chance to do something. I kind of got that in G1, but I wasn't bold enough to make the move. The game essentially came down to a point where I had Finks in play and an Overgrown Tomb, Viscera Seer, and Chord of Calling in hand. I decided to hold back as I was at 10 and going down to 8 seemed too risky, so I brought the Tomb into play tapped, got knocked down to 7 the next turn, and in response to Viscera Seer, he Bolt-Boros'd me. If I had taken the shock damage, I would have been able to wait it out and Chord for infinite life if he goes for the kill. Worst case, I would have at least lived another turn.
G2 I hold off the aggro long enough, he gets antsy with 2 skullcracks in hand and plays a value crack at the end of my turn. Chord for combo in response and go to a million.
G3 Really wasn't close, he did what burn does and basically had the game locked up by turn 3. I think I was at 1 and didn't have any meaningful plays so I scooped.
2-1 Still capable of easing my way into top 8 if I win next round.
Round 4: Merfolk
G1 was a little back and forth, I don't think I ever went below 14 really and eventually assembled a combo.
G2 I kept a fetch, gavony, bird, bird hand. He goes T1 vial, I go T1 fetch a temple garden into bird. He goes T2 Spreading Seas on the garden. I think I played T2 Melira or some *****. He goes T3 vial in a Tidebinder on the bird. I miss my 3rd land and am cut off from casting my other bird... I offer up Melira for trade. He takes it and vials in another Tidebinder on the bird. T4 I hit an overgrown tomb and play my 2nd bird. He hits a 3rd tidebinder on my other bird. I could say maybe I should have played the T2 bird as well, but ultimately I doubt it mattered. 3 tidebinders + Spreading Seas + Gavony + missing 3rd land made the game basically unplayable.
G3 We have a good back and forth that ends up with me at 7 and him attacking with 2 mutavaults, Rejeerey, and a Tidebinder. I block Rejeerey with Finks, Tidebinder with a Witness and figure the mutavaults will take me down to 1. I have Seer on board so I'm not worried about vapor snag or anything and he doesn't have any vial tricks. He says "game?" I say "No, I'm at 1?" He calls the judge. He had me at 6, I had myself at 7. We both know I have Melira in hand and another card (which was Redcap) I had 6 lands, only one 1 black source though so as long as the judge rules that I can at the very least sac my finks to prevent myself from dying, the game isn't OVER, but I'm very-very much on one more live draw.
After like 10 minutes of deliberation and looking all sorts of stuff up online, we establish that what happened is I missed paying 1 life to fetch. That's how I got to 6 in his books, and again, I'm fine with that. Can I sac Finks to live? The judge ultimately ruled against me using the fact that I was using dice to track my life total as his reasoning. It is not considered an appropriate way to track life totals and therefore the fact that I was wrong was totally my fault and I don't get to take back decisions or anything based on using inferior tracking and missing my own "pay 1 life". He didn't take all the blame off my opponent, but it was a pretty honest mistake on both sides, my opponent wasn't aware that I thought I was at 7 until I was dead. I would have just liked the opportunity to take advantage of the on-board, instant ability to rectify the situation and go to 2 and killing nothing instead of losing the game on the spot.
2-2 Oddly enough, as long as I win the next game, I'm STILL in top8 contention.
Round 5: Abzan
This is such a good MU. People get all crazy about the removal, but really it wasn't a big deal at all.
G1 We trade pieces a bit, I block his Rhino with a Wall of Roots, which was actually important from his perspective because it kept me from Chording at the end of his turn or anything. True. I had Finks in play, untap, draw, Chord for Ana, pass turn, he fetches at EoT leaving 1 green open, I respond by Chording for Seer and gaining a million.
G2 he opens with a Scooze and messes up in T4 by playing Lili and leaving no green open. I had Ana and Finks on board and Seer in hand but decided that would be too easy so lets gamble a bit, so I go for a CoCo, hit nothing useful and pass the turn back. The game evolves into me having 3 finks on board, a huge ass elemental token, no ladies, and fighting the nitty-gritty. I clear up his board, including 2 finks toward Lili. The next turn, I attack his face for 20 damage and the win. He responds by activating some man lands, I CoCo in response and hit a million life combo, GG!
3-2 This puts me in 9th place. Top 6 will likely ID into place, but 7th and 8th are forced to play it out as are myself and 10th.
Round 6: Jeskai Delver
G1 starts out with me playing some dudes and him removing them. Around turn 4, he puts 2 delvers into play, which flip immediately and he starts the beatdown. I am one turn away from going off when he hits me for 10 and says "game?" I have myself at 11... I am about to freak out as this JUST happened and he says "oh, Vapor Snag, I knew my math wasn't wrong." Jerk...
G2 Path is a beast. He starts out by hitting my bird with a T2 vapor snag, which forced me to flash in my Mindcensor early so that I could keep up my pressure and actually contest the board. I hit him for 2 with the Mindcensor, he plays geist, I pass back, he paths the mindcensor and attacks with the geist, I CoCo and block the geist with Finks. He Path's the finks. I get a Voice into play, he snap-path's the voice. I think I played another finks and he snap-paths that one too. I end the game with 8 land in play, Chord up Redcap to kill his Delver, which was the only thing he had left on board. He activates Celestial Colonnade and swings in over the top for the win.
I ended up in 14th place, collected my 3 packs and went home.
I didn't mention Athreos but I DID play him in my Delver game and my Merfolk game. He ended up turning my guys into bolts when the die, but I never got anything back. I'm still not sure he's worth it even in value MUs as we rarely win through beatdowns and pressure. I will likely go back to just the 2 Evo Leaps.
I also think it's time to drop Lili, here's my next try at the deck:
2x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
1x Cartel Aristocrat
4x Kitchen Finks
2x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Murderous Redcap
2x Viscera Seer
Dorks(8)
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Wall of Roots
2x Noble Hierarch
Value(9)
3x Eternal Witness
1x Fiend Hunter
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Spellskite
2x Voice of Resurgence
2x Forest
3x Gavony Township
1x Godless Shrine
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Swamp
2x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
Instant (9)
1x Path to Exile
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
2x Choke
2x Evolutionary Leap
1x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Voice of Resurgence
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Orzhov Pontiff
1x Path to Exile
1x Scavenging Ooze
I guarantee that all of you win 95% of your game 1s with the combo. Voice does nothing to help this at all. Does it stop the opponent from killing your guy? Does it stop them from activating scavenging ooze?
You all are just wasting good slots and making your draws G1 slightly worse. Same goes for pridemage...wasted slot.
yeah, i realized this after playing with this deck a lot. voice didn't do anything to help me combo, and every time i had one game one i wished it was a spellskite or a combo piece.