Yixid Jailer doesn't counter tasigur, goyf or scooze. Looking at the gatherer the only good options in creature form are scavenging ooze and withered wretch. Both have an activation cost.
3 abrupt decay goes a long way to deal with scooze and goyf. I'd not bother with additional graveyard hate. You even have revoker that can name scooze if you want. In general your sideboard seems to contain too many non-creatures. In a collected company deck your hate should mainly consist of creatures. I'm not sure why you want 2 maelstrom pulses, but if you're worried about tokens you should run orzhov pontiff, or if you're worried about artifacts or enchantment you should have more reclamation sages. Two qasali seems weird to have in the board, they are pretty good to run in the main. I'd also run some number of Sin Collector for combo/control. I think some number of path to exile should be somewhere in the 75 also and probably a Burrenton Forge-Tender in order to not just scoop to anger.
Anafenza, the Foremost is good incidental grave hate. Scavenging Ooze is amazing. Path out of the board is good against a lot of decks. Either Fulminator or Mindcensor is a suggestion too. Kataki or Stony Silence for Affinity or Tron, etc.
Hey Guys,
Bummed out Ex-Pod Player who is extremely excited by this deck. Has anyone tried out varolz, the scar-striped as a sac outlet? I played him in my old pod deck as a one of and I loved the guy. Back then I ran viscera seers predominantly though because they could be fetched by ranger of eos/ a token sacced to pod. Varolz has huge board presence though and fits in on the curve to work extremely well with collected company. I will definitely be trying him out.
I've thought about your suggestions and I'll probably do something like:
-3 Yixlid Jailer
-2 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Reclamation Sage
+2 Kor Firewalker
+2 Burrenton Forge Tender
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Kataki, War's Wage
I run Qasali Pridemages in the sideboard over Reclamation Sages because flipping a Sage with CC is only good if they already have an artifact/enchantment on the board. Pridemages can be flipped and saved to stop them from playing anything later. I don't have any room for them Mainboard (nor Path's, Decays, and such) because I literally only have combo pieces Mainboard.
Thanks for also pointing out (albeit a little earlier) how much better Anafenza is than Melira. I was running a 2/4 split and have changed it to a 3/3.
@McFluffCake:
I run one Varolz in the deck. He is generally worse than Viscera Seer or even Bloodthrone Vampire/Cartel Aristocrat.
What makes him important is that green splash - allowing him to be tutored with Summoner's pact.
Hopefully I can give you a good report in a few days.
I've been unimpressed with Cartel Aristocrat. She does nothing much on her own and her sac effect does not give much value. I think you should run either the Seer or Varolz depending on your curve. I have quite a few 3's in my deck so I run Seer as my sac outlet.
Cartel Aristocrat is one of the few ways to deal infinite damage through blockers by giving it protection from everything and making it huge. Varolz makes very little sense.
I've been unimpressed with Cartel Aristocrat. She does nothing much on her own and her sac effect does not give much value. I think you should run either the Seer or Varolz depending on your curve. I have quite a few 3's in my deck so I run Seer as my sac outlet.
Im not trying to be negative when I say this but, everything you have said so far in this thread goes against posted tournament results. The decks shown here are winning, and they use the cards you are saying are bad. I think you may want to play a w,b,g deck but less focused on the combo.
Cartel can get protection from all colors and with bolster triggers on the stack goes infinite power/tough. You win with one swing.
I've been unimpressed with Cartel Aristocrat. She does nothing much on her own and her sac effect does not give much value. I think you should run either the Seer or Varolz depending on your curve. I have quite a few 3's in my deck so I run Seer as my sac outlet.
Im not trying to be negative when I say this but, everything you have said so far in this thread goes against posted tournament results. The decks shown here are winning, and they use the cards you are saying are bad. I think you may want to play a w,b,g deck but less focused on the combo.
Cartel can get protection from all colors and with bolster triggers on the stack goes infinite power/tough. You win with one swing.
I agree with you and I don't take offence.
Isn't the whole point of discussion to have differing viewpoints and hearing each other out though? I've learnt a lot about this deck from people like cbgirardo clarifying why they disagree with the points I raised. I don't think I've been making any stupid or cute suggestions so far - if I have please point them out to me. The decks that are posted have been top 8-ing in States and that's a fantastic result, but States and SCG IQs are not a GP - therefore, I am quite sure that the deck has a lot of room to grow and only in discussing options can the deck grow.
The cartel aristocrat comment was an oversight on my part as I'm not playing the combo version and I apologize. It makes perfect sense that if you are looking to combo off frequently then the unblockable guy is better.
I personally don't run Cartel Aristocrat, but I'm considering her as a one-of to replace a single Bloodthrone Vampire.
That would make my Sac Outlet suite look like:
1 Varolz
1 Bloodthrone
1 Cartel Aristocrat
4 Viscera Seer
Varolz does make sense if you need him to be green.
It should be noted that Birds of Paradise can win you the game through Blockers with bolster triggers as well. They get blocked by fliers, but aristocrat gets blocked by artifact creatures.
Hey guys. New here and really love the deck idea as I'm brewing my own version of it.
I have to ask: Does Dromoka's Command have any place in this deck? Perhaps in the side. I would think that being a creature heavy deck would make us susceptible against early sweepers like Pyroclasm and Anger of the Gods. The command also shores up our combo against burn as well as taking off relevant enchantments like Splinter Twin. And it's kind of a removal as well. Thoughts?
(And may I just say that I'm really happy with Khans block in particular for giving us the new tools for this deck. Some builds here have a decent fraction coming from Khans and that includes the fetches.)
As a sideboard option, Dromoka's Command looks decent (one more way to deal with Twin, hoses red sweepers, snuffs a burn spell, refreshes Persist, is ersatz removal, all at instant speed). It's got stiff competition from stuff like Path to Exile (solid removal, deals with troublesome stuff that Decay can't hit) and Stony Silence (oh gosh I want to win against Affinity and Tron), though.
Cartel can get protection from all colors and with bolster triggers on the stack goes infinite power/tough. You win with one swing.
Just to be clear, for this combo, you need both Melira and Anafenza right?
Yup, you need both Melira and Anafenza. Otherwise, all you can do is gain infinite life with Finks and infinite Scry with Viscera Seer (or infinite damage with Redcap, but if you can pull that off, you've already won).
As for needing to counter Ooze/Goyf/Tasigur: The only one you should be worrying about (assuming you run the Melira Combo) is Ooze. Goyf can generally be dealt with by taking one hit from it, then chumping it until we can assemble the combo through one removal spell, trading multiple guys away for it, or making one of our big lunks (such as a Voice of Resurgence token) wall it. (We've got a LOT of guys, although sometimes, nasty stuff happens.) Tasigur does look better in Game 2 than in Game 1 (and I haven't tested many post-board games yet), but I've generally been able to keep his CA from going anywhere for several turns in Game 1 because I tend to pick targeted discard/Souls/Liliana (if I have a clear edge on the board)/worst removal spell/cantrip pretty often. Ooze is such a nasty piece of work that I maindeck Abrupt Decay and a guy who I can flip off Collected Company that can kill it (it's Garza's Assassin right now), though. Ooze turns off the combo (which we lean on surprisingly hard late-game in order to intimidate our opponents), while Goyf and Tasigur don't.
In my play testing against Junk - which Maindecked several Oozes, I found that even without a direct answer to him, you can still stall out the game and just wait to draw more Persist Creatures than he has open-green-mana.
If they aren't playing anything to keep all mana open - you'll win. But If they only have two green mana open and you draw into a third Finks, you win...
I won a Modern tournament yesterday with my combo-light list. Lost g1 against Burn when 4 Collected Company didn't flip a single Finks and he drew his seven card combo, won g2 and 3 with Burrenton Forge-tender. Also beat Bogles in 3.
In my play testing against Junk - which Maindecked several Oozes, I found that even without a direct answer to him, you can still stall out the game and just wait to draw more Persist Creatures than he has open-green-mana.
If they aren't playing anything to keep all mana open - you'll win. But If they only have two green mana open and you draw into a third Finks, you win...
Bizarrely, I've NEVER been able to accumulate more Persist dudes than my opponent has green mana open once my opponent has Ooze out (yup, not even in the Pod days). My main tactics of dealing with an Ooze I can't kill are hoping it came out too early and then forcing it to chump, or grinding it out, making it run out of dead creatures to suck up, then swarming around it, most likely with evasive creatures.
I remember that the only reason that Deathrite Shaman was relatively easy to deal with back in the Pod days was that Pod could search for Murderous Redcap more easily. It was similarly tough to combo off through a non-summoning sick Deathrite with a mere G up. I think I only ever encountered 1-2 situations where I comboed off through one such Deathrite (and I was lucky that they didn't have Deathrite + removal those times).
Good points Lectrys. It's definitely not an ideal way of dealing with Scooze - and that single card is what convinced me to switch over to mid-range...as soon as the rest of the cards I ordered make it here.
But it may help that I run the full suite of four Redcaps and four Finks.
Doran is great against Affinity(turning off Cranial Plating and making Signal Pest a 1/1 without Battle Cry effectively), is an awesome beatstick, makes a large number of our creatures bigger, and overall kicks people in the teeth. Anafenza, the Foremost is also great against Affinity because she turns off Modular. I've been happy with them.
Doran is great against Affinity(turning off Cranial Plating and making Signal Pest a 1/1 without Battle Cry effectively), is an awesome beatstick, makes a large number of our creatures bigger, and overall kicks people in the teeth. Anafenza, the Foremost is also great against Affinity because she turns off Modular. I've been happy with them.
From all the previous times I've played Doran, I've actually found that he's hit-and-miss against Affinity because he turns Plating and Signal Pest off, but he also makes their Ornithopters free Flying 2/2's. I suppose Doran is better against Affinity if I'm on this deck, though, as Junk Midrange has more removal for Plating/Signal Pest(/Ornithopter) and therefore worries about 2/2 Ornithopters more.
Doran's similarly hit-and-miss against Twin--turning Pestermite and V. Clique (and, heck, Tiago) half-off is good, but making Deceiver Exarch a Flash tapping 4/4 is very bad.
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
Bummed out Ex-Pod Player who is extremely excited by this deck. Has anyone tried out varolz, the scar-striped as a sac outlet? I played him in my old pod deck as a one of and I loved the guy. Back then I ran viscera seers predominantly though because they could be fetched by ranger of eos/ a token sacced to pod. Varolz has huge board presence though and fits in on the curve to work extremely well with collected company. I will definitely be trying him out.
I've thought about your suggestions and I'll probably do something like:
-3 Yixlid Jailer
-2 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Reclamation Sage
+2 Kor Firewalker
+2 Burrenton Forge Tender
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Kataki, War's Wage
I run Qasali Pridemages in the sideboard over Reclamation Sages because flipping a Sage with CC is only good if they already have an artifact/enchantment on the board. Pridemages can be flipped and saved to stop them from playing anything later. I don't have any room for them Mainboard (nor Path's, Decays, and such) because I literally only have combo pieces Mainboard.
Thanks for also pointing out (albeit a little earlier) how much better Anafenza is than Melira. I was running a 2/4 split and have changed it to a 3/3.
@McFluffCake:
I run one Varolz in the deck. He is generally worse than Viscera Seer or even Bloodthrone Vampire/Cartel Aristocrat.
What makes him important is that green splash - allowing him to be tutored with Summoner's pact.
Hopefully I can give you a good report in a few days.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
Im not trying to be negative when I say this but, everything you have said so far in this thread goes against posted tournament results. The decks shown here are winning, and they use the cards you are saying are bad. I think you may want to play a w,b,g deck but less focused on the combo.
Cartel can get protection from all colors and with bolster triggers on the stack goes infinite power/tough. You win with one swing.
I agree with you and I don't take offence.
Isn't the whole point of discussion to have differing viewpoints and hearing each other out though? I've learnt a lot about this deck from people like cbgirardo clarifying why they disagree with the points I raised. I don't think I've been making any stupid or cute suggestions so far - if I have please point them out to me. The decks that are posted have been top 8-ing in States and that's a fantastic result, but States and SCG IQs are not a GP - therefore, I am quite sure that the deck has a lot of room to grow and only in discussing options can the deck grow.
The cartel aristocrat comment was an oversight on my part as I'm not playing the combo version and I apologize. It makes perfect sense that if you are looking to combo off frequently then the unblockable guy is better.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Just to be clear, for this combo, you need both Melira and Anafenza right?
That would make my Sac Outlet suite look like:
1 Varolz
1 Bloodthrone
1 Cartel Aristocrat
4 Viscera Seer
Varolz does make sense if you need him to be green.
It should be noted that Birds of Paradise can win you the game through Blockers with bolster triggers as well. They get blocked by fliers, but aristocrat gets blocked by artifact creatures.
The only place I'd be comfortable with Dromoka's Command in this deck is the sideboard. Given that the Melira Combo is pretty Scavenging Ooze-weak, and a runaway Ooze is generally at least +2/+2 bigger than any one of our men, I'd rather run removal maindeck that's guaranteed to kill Ooze. Abrupt Decay kills Ooze and incidentally sits on Twin's Exarchs/Vedalken Shackles/Relic of Progenitus/other random graveyard hate rocks/Blood Moon/Pentad Prism/Phyrexian Unlife/Amulet of Vigor/Delver of Secrets/Grim Lavamancer/Cranial Plating pretty hard.
As a sideboard option, Dromoka's Command looks decent (one more way to deal with Twin, hoses red sweepers, snuffs a burn spell, refreshes Persist, is ersatz removal, all at instant speed). It's got stiff competition from stuff like Path to Exile (solid removal, deals with troublesome stuff that Decay can't hit) and Stony Silence (oh gosh I want to win against Affinity and Tron), though.
Yup, you need both Melira and Anafenza. Otherwise, all you can do is gain infinite life with Finks and infinite Scry with Viscera Seer (or infinite damage with Redcap, but if you can pull that off, you've already won).
As for needing to counter Ooze/Goyf/Tasigur: The only one you should be worrying about (assuming you run the Melira Combo) is Ooze. Goyf can generally be dealt with by taking one hit from it, then chumping it until we can assemble the combo through one removal spell, trading multiple guys away for it, or making one of our big lunks (such as a Voice of Resurgence token) wall it. (We've got a LOT of guys, although sometimes, nasty stuff happens.) Tasigur does look better in Game 2 than in Game 1 (and I haven't tested many post-board games yet), but I've generally been able to keep his CA from going anywhere for several turns in Game 1 because I tend to pick targeted discard/Souls/Liliana (if I have a clear edge on the board)/worst removal spell/cantrip pretty often. Ooze is such a nasty piece of work that I maindeck Abrupt Decay and a guy who I can flip off Collected Company that can kill it (it's Garza's Assassin right now), though. Ooze turns off the combo (which we lean on surprisingly hard late-game in order to intimidate our opponents), while Goyf and Tasigur don't.
If they aren't playing anything to keep all mana open - you'll win. But If they only have two green mana open and you draw into a third Finks, you win...
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1235041
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1234849
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1234848
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1234701
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1234531
Bizarrely, I've NEVER been able to accumulate more Persist dudes than my opponent has green mana open once my opponent has Ooze out (yup, not even in the Pod days). My main tactics of dealing with an Ooze I can't kill are hoping it came out too early and then forcing it to chump, or grinding it out, making it run out of dead creatures to suck up, then swarming around it, most likely with evasive creatures.
I remember that the only reason that Deathrite Shaman was relatively easy to deal with back in the Pod days was that Pod could search for Murderous Redcap more easily. It was similarly tough to combo off through a non-summoning sick Deathrite with a mere G up. I think I only ever encountered 1-2 situations where I comboed off through one such Deathrite (and I was lucky that they didn't have Deathrite + removal those times).
But it may help that I run the full suite of four Redcaps and four Finks.
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
From all the previous times I've played Doran, I've actually found that he's hit-and-miss against Affinity because he turns Plating and Signal Pest off, but he also makes their Ornithopters free Flying 2/2's. I suppose Doran is better against Affinity if I'm on this deck, though, as Junk Midrange has more removal for Plating/Signal Pest(/Ornithopter) and therefore worries about 2/2 Ornithopters more.
Doran's similarly hit-and-miss against Twin--turning Pestermite and V. Clique (and, heck, Tiago) half-off is good, but making Deceiver Exarch a Flash tapping 4/4 is very bad.
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru