Never ran the deck with manamorphose. You don't need it at all. At all. It's literally just a waste of space. Just use Simian Spirit Guides, Rituals, and splicing to build mana for Through the Breach.
A play a lot of people missout on, is splicing Rituals onto their Shoals, to build up their red mana while working through the combo.
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Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
You can. Hitting the graveyard is a triggered ability, not a replacement effect. This is especially relevant against things like RoP.
But Worldspine Wurm is an illegal target for Goryo's
Greetings,
Kathal
Not in my heart kathal <3
There should be only one thing in your Heart, Griseldaddy himself
@Manamorphose, in my version I want to play at least 1, since I don't run that many TTB (only 2) AND I maybe want the U mana for the Echoing Truth/Izzet Charm.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Never ran the deck with manamorphose. You don't need it at all. At all. It's literally just a waste of space. Just use Simian Spirit Guides, Rituals, and splicing to build mana for Through the Breach.
A play a lot of people missout on, is splicing Rituals onto their Shoals, to build up their red mana while working through the combo.
I'll have to disagree on that.it can be used to pay for a pact. A situation that arises surprisingly often for me. Plus, it's easier to use the morphose to just convert red to black to goryos the bobo instead of trying to get to five. But if you're playing the blue version, you can definitely cut it.
I agree, whilst I've not been able to test the RBu version yet, I've come in enough situations that I didn't need to dig further for a TTB because I already had something like: Morphose, Vengeance, discard outlet, Borby.
Never ran the deck with manamorphose. You don't need it at all. At all. It's literally just a waste of space. Just use Simian Spirit Guides, Rituals, and splicing to build mana for Through the Breach.
A play a lot of people missout on, is splicing Rituals onto their Shoals, to build up their red mana while working through the combo.
I'll build a copy of your deck and test it out. But I am seriously doubtful of its consistency for comboing off without the manamorphose. The ability to exile 2 SSG, convert to RB (draw a card), then play the vengeance, or to play a ritual without a shoal/wurm in my hand, then convert to RB seems like a weakness to me. Especially since those are two common situations I've found myself in past games.
Regarding Morphose, I needed it several times to convert R mana into U to use Echoing Truth. If you are running Echoing Truth, at least I think, that you HAVE TO run at least 1 Morphose MD for such cases.
I will go up to two Morphose, probably kicking a Izzet Charm or Serum Visions (would need another tap land than ).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
So essentially my goal was to streamline the deck as much as possible. There has been a lot of debate over whether Manamorphose actually needs to be in the deck. And I can confirm confidently, that it doesn't. The big argument is that going 2 SSG, Ritual, Morphose, Loot, Vengeance is a common line for getting the win after getting Gris online. However, it's an unnecessary line, that can only run at sorcery speed anyway. I've noticed that 90 percent of the time, i'm using my Guides and Rituals to just Breach after getting Gris on. I'm of the opinion that having more Rituals, is more beneficial than having Morphose, and that the line Morphose opens up, is an unnecessary line anyway, as it's just as easy- if not easier to open up the Breach line. Especially with splicing things onto Shouls. I have dropped the 2 Morphose I was running maindeck in favor of the 4th Desperate Ritual, and the 3rd Tormenting Voice, and I honestly don't think I could even consider adding in Morphose again.
So yeah, with only 2 Rituals, I wouldn't wan't to drop Manamorphose, but that's part of the argument; That we would rather be running 4 Rituals over Manamorphose anyways. The Rituals give you more Splice cards, more ramp for Breach, and a more consistent combo turn- Where Manamorphose isn't really doing anything except opening up the Goryo combo line if you have no floating mana, which is completely unnecessary anyways.
Another reason to drop Morphose, is that we would rather be comboing out at instant speed anyway. That's one of the major draws to this deck, and an advantage it has over other combos. The Ritual-Morphose-Looting-Gory line is sorcery speed, which is a major downside.
Now just using 2 Guides, or 2 floating mana when comboing off to splice a ritual onto Shoal when you gain life mid combo will give you 3 mana, and the ritual back to your hand. You can kee doing this during the combo; splicing onto each shoal to easily build red mana for Breach.
There is literally no good reason to run Manamorphose IMO.
*edit*
I'll throw this out there too I guess. Unless you guys are super attached to Griselbrand, and the storm like combo fashion of this deck, I would very much suggest checking out the evolution of Hulk Reanimator. That deck has been making some major strides, and IMO has been feeling a lot more consistent than this deck, while running a very very similar game plan. I would definitely give it a look, if you're looking for an awesome ultra-fast, consistent, graveyard based combo deck.
Is there a RB version of the deck that uses reanimation as a plan B and runs disruption/burn/maindeck blood moons? Has anyone tried anything like this?
Is there a RB version of the deck that uses reanimation as a plan B and runs disruption/burn/maindeck blood moons? Has anyone tried anything like this?
You can't really do that with this deck. The issue is that since it's essentially an engine combo (like Storm), there are too many slots (~30 give or take a few depending on build) taken up by combo pieces that you don't have enough left over for a different plan. And if you shave on those, then the combo becomes unstable and will just fizzle too often, making it not a very good backup plan.
Is there a RB version of the deck that uses reanimation as a plan B and runs disruption/burn/maindeck blood moons? Has anyone tried anything like this?
You can't really do that with this deck. The issue is that since it's essentially an engine combo (like Storm), there are too many slots (~30 give or take a few depending on build) taken up by combo pieces that you don't have enough left over for a different plan. And if you shave on those, then the combo becomes unstable and will just fizzle too often, making it not a very good backup plan.
That is not true
If you don't run the Shoal package, you free up around 8-12 slots, which would enable you to run Disruption, if you would want. However, this version would be rather a BR "Control" deck with a combo finish, which consists out of Griselbrand drawing 14 cards and TTB an Emrakul.
Is there a RB version of the deck that uses reanimation as a plan B and runs disruption/burn/maindeck blood moons? Has anyone tried anything like this?
This is the list i've been playing.
So yeah, with only 2 Rituals, I wouldn't wan't to drop Manamorphose, but that's part of the argument; That we would rather be running 4 Rituals over Manamorphose anyways. The Rituals give you more Splice cards, more ramp for Breach, and a more consistent combo turn- Where Manamorphose isn't really doing anything except opening up the Goryo combo line if you have no floating mana, which is completely unnecessary anyways.
Another reason to drop Morphose, is that we would rather be comboing out at instant speed anyway. That's one of the major draws to this deck, and an advantage it has over other combos. The Ritual-Morphose-Looting-Gory line is sorcery speed, which is a major downside.
This is one of the reasons I've always been a big proponent of keeping a single Lightning Axe in the main. In addition to killing Scavenging Oozes and the like, it enables an instant speed discard outlet that can turn on a Goryo's mid combo.
The other minor benefit to keeping in a Manamorphose or two is that they they're sometimes the only green card you've got in hand to kick start a combo with a shoal. Especially if you're baiting out a likely (or known) counter at end step. Not wasting a wurm on that makes fizzling out a bit less likely.
Not keeping them is certainly a legitimate option, though.
So, I played this deck quite heavily before ORI and really enjoyed it. Ultimately, I was always hesitant to play it at larger events because of the inconsistency. I finally decided not to play it at the rptq after going 1:3 at an FNM including losing to a 4c control deck after a turn two blood moon. I simple got too frustrated with not drawing griselbrand too many times.
Anyway, I'm ready to have some fun again and want to pick up the deck again. I've always played the straight BR list, but I'm wondering if there is any consensus as to a best list now. I see some people are splashing U and in the past some people had tried G. So, are there any developments or advances since I was playing it?
I want to play this deck because it looks like so much fun but I'd have to spend nearly $400 to get the pieces I need! Xmage will have to satisfy me for now!
Hey guys I was wondering if anyone has a mirror to this deck being played at GP copenhagen? the original twitch footage is gone and I can only find the finals of the gp online.
I was just hoping to see some live footage of the deck being played at a tournament.
Hey guys I was wondering if anyone has a mirror to this deck being played at GP copenhagen? the original twitch footage is gone and I can only find the finals of the gp online.
I was just hoping to see some live footage of the deck being played at a tournament.
These videos could be included in the primer so people can watch how to play the deck.
EDIT: Don't ever play against twin like the guy in the last video...The best thing to do is to dump Griselbrand into the graveyard and wait for and opening. Rushing things out only leads to a waste of resources. If they can have snare / dispel in hand, they will always have it.
For anyone who's interested, Pascal Maynard has posted a video of the deck in action - A Time of Need version. This video actually made me consider buying 2 Time of Need in case I want to switch every once in a while, but you know I LOOOVE leaving the deck just BR.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I doubt anything in this deck will be banned. The deck has a rough matchup as of late against seasoned Jund, Grixis, and even UR Twin players in my opinion. Hand hate, counter magic (especially dispel and spell peirce) which are present threats in all the top decks right now. Also you have to keep in mind that the deck has only topped a handful of events in comparison to almost every other popular deck in modern, Griselbrand just doesnt really put up the numbers to be banned.
The deck requires you to know the cards in it, very well in fact. It punishes your opponents for not playing good defense. Another thing about this deck is that you really need to know what your opponents gameplan quickly ( as in what deck they are playing and their options) so that you can loot and filter through your deck quickly sculpting a winning had as fast as possible without mistake as little mistakes in this deck usually lead to quick loss without coming back. In the traditional builds of the deck you literally interact with your opponent 0% unless you combo off, so you can generally just goldfish this deck and get the idea. Also from reading this forum you will probably see that results vary a lot in local meta, so as far as sideboard and mainboard cards taht arent part of your combo you might put some thought in to the idea that the lists you find may have been built for bigger tourneys etc. I know ppl think the deck is super easy to pilot, but it's really all about how much time you've put into knowing your deck and the decks in the meta so when you're in an akward griselshoal situation (searching for a win or a way out of a loss) then you know what to do...
Saffron Olive, from MTG Goldfish, played against a Grixis version of the deck. The guy was able to turn 2 on game 1 and Saffron basically gave up game 2 without seeing if Grisel could go off.
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A play a lot of people missout on, is splicing Rituals onto their Shoals, to build up their red mana while working through the combo.
Not in my heart kathal <3
There should be only one thing in your Heart, Griseldaddy himself
@Manamorphose, in my version I want to play at least 1, since I don't run that many TTB (only 2) AND I maybe want the U mana for the Echoing Truth/Izzet Charm.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I'll have to disagree on that.it can be used to pay for a pact. A situation that arises surprisingly often for me. Plus, it's easier to use the morphose to just convert red to black to goryos the bobo instead of trying to get to five. But if you're playing the blue version, you can definitely cut it.
I'll build a copy of your deck and test it out. But I am seriously doubtful of its consistency for comboing off without the manamorphose. The ability to exile 2 SSG, convert to RB (draw a card), then play the vengeance, or to play a ritual without a shoal/wurm in my hand, then convert to RB seems like a weakness to me. Especially since those are two common situations I've found myself in past games.
I will go up to two Morphose, probably kicking a Izzet Charm or Serum Visions (would need another tap land than ).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Griselbrand
4 Worldspine Wurm
2 Borborygmos Enraged
4 Faithless Looting
4 Night's Whisper
3 Tormenting Voice
4 Through the Breach
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Nourishing Shoal
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Blood Crypt
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Shatterstorm
2 Pyroclasm
1 Anger of the Gods
So essentially my goal was to streamline the deck as much as possible. There has been a lot of debate over whether Manamorphose actually needs to be in the deck. And I can confirm confidently, that it doesn't. The big argument is that going 2 SSG, Ritual, Morphose, Loot, Vengeance is a common line for getting the win after getting Gris online. However, it's an unnecessary line, that can only run at sorcery speed anyway. I've noticed that 90 percent of the time, i'm using my Guides and Rituals to just Breach after getting Gris on. I'm of the opinion that having more Rituals, is more beneficial than having Morphose, and that the line Morphose opens up, is an unnecessary line anyway, as it's just as easy- if not easier to open up the Breach line. Especially with splicing things onto Shouls. I have dropped the 2 Morphose I was running maindeck in favor of the 4th Desperate Ritual, and the 3rd Tormenting Voice, and I honestly don't think I could even consider adding in Morphose again.
So yeah, with only 2 Rituals, I wouldn't wan't to drop Manamorphose, but that's part of the argument; That we would rather be running 4 Rituals over Manamorphose anyways. The Rituals give you more Splice cards, more ramp for Breach, and a more consistent combo turn- Where Manamorphose isn't really doing anything except opening up the Goryo combo line if you have no floating mana, which is completely unnecessary anyways.
Another reason to drop Morphose, is that we would rather be comboing out at instant speed anyway. That's one of the major draws to this deck, and an advantage it has over other combos. The Ritual-Morphose-Looting-Gory line is sorcery speed, which is a major downside.
Now just using 2 Guides, or 2 floating mana when comboing off to splice a ritual onto Shoal when you gain life mid combo will give you 3 mana, and the ritual back to your hand. You can kee doing this during the combo; splicing onto each shoal to easily build red mana for Breach.
There is literally no good reason to run Manamorphose IMO.
*edit*
I'll throw this out there too I guess. Unless you guys are super attached to Griselbrand, and the storm like combo fashion of this deck, I would very much suggest checking out the evolution of Hulk Reanimator. That deck has been making some major strides, and IMO has been feeling a lot more consistent than this deck, while running a very very similar game plan. I would definitely give it a look, if you're looking for an awesome ultra-fast, consistent, graveyard based combo deck.
You can't really do that with this deck. The issue is that since it's essentially an engine combo (like Storm), there are too many slots (~30 give or take a few depending on build) taken up by combo pieces that you don't have enough left over for a different plan. And if you shave on those, then the combo becomes unstable and will just fizzle too often, making it not a very good backup plan.
That is not true
If you don't run the Shoal package, you free up around 8-12 slots, which would enable you to run Disruption, if you would want. However, this version would be rather a BR "Control" deck with a combo finish, which consists out of Griselbrand drawing 14 cards and TTB an Emrakul.
Look here: http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-calebd-modern-griselbrand-vengeance/
He had several articles regarding his version. If you want to run something like this, look at his articles and vids.
Edit says: Look through the Primer (both old and new), there is also some stuff written there about these versions.
Greetings
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
This is one of the reasons I've always been a big proponent of keeping a single Lightning Axe in the main. In addition to killing Scavenging Oozes and the like, it enables an instant speed discard outlet that can turn on a Goryo's mid combo.
The other minor benefit to keeping in a Manamorphose or two is that they they're sometimes the only green card you've got in hand to kick start a combo with a shoal. Especially if you're baiting out a likely (or known) counter at end step. Not wasting a wurm on that makes fizzling out a bit less likely.
Not keeping them is certainly a legitimate option, though.
Anyway, I'm ready to have some fun again and want to pick up the deck again. I've always played the straight BR list, but I'm wondering if there is any consensus as to a best list now. I see some people are splashing U and in the past some people had tried G. So, are there any developments or advances since I was playing it?
I was just hoping to see some live footage of the deck being played at a tournament.
This is from GP Charlotte:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M0wOAGTiy0
You might be able to find more videos in http://www.tcdecks.net/videos.php?format=Modern
Appart from that, here are Huang's tech and matches
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwisVCY2NjU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as4nfW8M62E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJDS4nA_zJk
Zach Jesse playing the deck:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USBYRB36sBM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbPaneN0DHE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BdUpV63KAw
VS Twin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GXKzzOid7c
These videos could be included in the primer so people can watch how to play the deck.
EDIT: Don't ever play against twin like the guy in the last video...The best thing to do is to dump Griselbrand into the graveyard and wait for and opening. Rushing things out only leads to a waste of resources. If they can have snare / dispel in hand, they will always have it.
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-pmayne-modern-time-of-need-grishoalbrand/
P.S. - Nice banner Ramosgay!
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)The deck requires you to know the cards in it, very well in fact. It punishes your opponents for not playing good defense. Another thing about this deck is that you really need to know what your opponents gameplan quickly ( as in what deck they are playing and their options) so that you can loot and filter through your deck quickly sculpting a winning had as fast as possible without mistake as little mistakes in this deck usually lead to quick loss without coming back. In the traditional builds of the deck you literally interact with your opponent 0% unless you combo off, so you can generally just goldfish this deck and get the idea. Also from reading this forum you will probably see that results vary a lot in local meta, so as far as sideboard and mainboard cards taht arent part of your combo you might put some thought in to the idea that the lists you find may have been built for bigger tourneys etc. I know ppl think the deck is super easy to pilot, but it's really all about how much time you've put into knowing your deck and the decks in the meta so when you're in an akward griselshoal situation (searching for a win or a way out of a loss) then you know what to do...