Two possible Pig versions: All-in Pig vs Midrange Pig. All in Pig should be lethal with Griselbrand cause of Fury of the Hordes, but Griselbrand is usually already lethal with it so basically Pig is unnecessary. Emmi + Pig is usually also Lethal, but against flying Blockers where you can repeat it next turn (if you have not cheated Pig in) it sucks, cause with a cheated Pig you do not get the Annihilation trigger, which is the biggest appeal from Emmi.
So All-in Pig looks kinda wonky, cause when you already have a pay off creature which you can cheat it, you should have won already. Pig makes only sense, if you want to use it as a TTB 5-8, which is interesting, especially Post Board when graveyard hate is comming in from the opponent, since you are capable of cutting all the Goryo's while still having enough "cheat" spells.
However, this requires more Pentad Prism, since you have more 5 drops you want to cheat on turn 3 ideally. So a Playset Pentad Prism between the main/SB is a must as some numbers of Gemstone Cavern and SSG to have redundancy. Historically speaking, Pentad Prism was always iffy, cause it was just a bad ramp card, since it could get removed rather easily. So meh.
The Midrange build is kinda interesting, especially combined with LotV, pitching Pig does not harm you, it just slows you down by 2 turns realistically (you will have at least one redraw usually). Pig there is both a value beater (which is usually the biggest beater but flipped TiTi and Shadows) as a cheat spell. What creatures to cheat in that sort of build is an interesting question. The obvious ones, Griselbrand and Emmi are not really that good with it, you would want something like Rakdos the Defiler or Obzedat, Ghost Council to get the max benefits out of it. However, Rakdos sucks as a cheat creature and Obzedat is fine, but you would rather want to play it in a dedicated Midrange shell (like the Esper one, which saw play). Basically, Pig would be Goryo's 5-8 in that deck, which is fine, but not necessary (regarding the Esper shell).
So since Piggy is not that interesting in an all in version (since you always need another creature to actually do something) and decent in the Midrange build (cause of the anti-synergies with most cheat creatures you would want to play in that shell but Obzedat), something in the middle is needed. Basically a shell, where a TTB/Goryo's creature has as big of an influence as an creature cheated in via Piggy. I have ad-hoc no idea which creature this could be (Griselbrand is still the best one imo, cause it gives you redraws), the only one is Razaketh, the Foulblooded which is kinda a lackluster as a TTB target since it needs another creature to be able to generate a tutor chain (you TTB him, sac a creature to grab Goryo's to Goryo's him next turn for 16 damage).
So many things to ponder around, but for the time being I would want to test Piggy in a non Powder shell as TTB 5-6 pre board and TTB 5-8 post board.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Hello everyone! Very interested in building this deck on paper and I'll soon! Some questions thou, so all tips n tricks are appreciated!
I really would like to use Chalice of the Voids in SB, but what are the MUs you board them in? I've read this thread and seems like GDS is problematic opponent so that's one! I've mono red prison deck and I know that it's crazy good lockpiece against them.
Anyone trying out the Neoform/Eldritch Evolution variant with WAR dropping this week? Looked pretty meme-y at first, but dodging graveyard hate while toting impressive T1/T2 win rates has a few people looking to this deck with the new set.
Played against Griselution 3 times over the weekend and it seemed very good. Was pretty close to playing the standard Goryo's version a bunch of times, but never bought it. All 3 times I played it it was still using Borb, but I also got killed by Seismic assault once. I won at least one of the matches by just pathing Grisel on T2 after my opponent had Pacted for something. They couldn't kill me that turn through the path and couldn't pay for the pact next turn. I'm playing Martyr and the other win was just from having way too much life and removal for them to win. The version I played against looked like this, except this SB isn't complete. Not relying on GY seems pretty good especially with how much GY hate is around.
Anyone trying out the Neoform/Eldritch Evolution variant with WAR dropping this week? Looked pretty meme-y at first, but dodging graveyard hate while toting impressive T1/T2 win rates has a few people looking to this deck with the new set.
The Neoform deck is still rather a glass cannon but scary fast; I suspect it will squeeze out pretty much all other combo decks that don't play counterspells because it's the fastest one out there, it dodges a fair few forms of hate, and all the other combo decks either play counterspells or get hit by the same hate.
So, I understand that people are excited about the Allosaurus Rider version of the deck, but has anybody been considering a list with Ilharg that more resembles a fusion of Legacy Sneak & Breach with Tin Fins? Something with red rituals, black removal, Goryo's, and Breach? Additionally, with Modern Horizons looming, a Sneak Attack reprint/variant is a very real possibility. Thoughts? Is this too slow? What would the manabase look like? I have Legacy Reanimator and Legacy Sneak & Breach built (including Ilhargs) and most good black/red removal cards, so if I could throw together a Modern deck with stuff I already have just lying around, I might be motivated to give the format a try.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Cheating in Emrakul with Ilharg doesn't give you the annihilator triggers, but it's still 15 damage. Cheating in Griselbrand with Ilharg is like having a Wurmcoil Engine or suited-up Bogle: you can put the game out of reach for your opponent with just the life gain, without drawing cards.
The Pentad Prism feels like it should be Vessel of Volatility instead. Vessel is harder to interact with and works better with Gemstone Caverns on the play.
Might be fringe, but I when played prism in the fury version a while ago, I often wanted to use the mana in different turns, and not all at a time, which vessel doesn't allow.
1) What is the game plan for if we are fully hated out? Say the opponent has a Leyline of the Void and also Surgical Extracts our Through the Breach. Do we just then go for manaramping into hard casting our threats and hope to win? Or is there more to the deck I'm not seeing?
2) What are some specific hate cards to watch out for? I know graveyard hate is obvious, but are there any no so obvious counters to Through the Breach, Griselbrand, ect?
I have played a half dozen matches or so on MTGo and this deck feels very strong. A turn 2 kill against UW was an awesome feeling. I can see that this deck will require a lot of practice (much like a storm deck) to get the most out of it. I am hoping that sideboard ideas and play patterns can be discussed now that there are some significant new cards added to the deck.
I like Thoughtseize in the sideboard as a proactive way to protect the combo. I lost 2 of the 6 matches... UW Control and UB Mill (which surprised me, but with surgical and unmoored ego, that deck was more difficult than I imagined it would be). I think I could have won UW match had I thought things throug better. I tried to draw with Griselbrand before attacking and taking out their Narsett (which prevents drawing more than one card) and several other costly miskaes.
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He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Modern: BG Rock, Grixis Control, UW Control
Commander: Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
"Win or lose, naught to choose - all men are equal when their memory fades. No one knows, friends or foes, if Valhalla lies beyond the grave." - Motörhead “Deaf Forever”
1) What is the game plan for if we are fully hated out? Say the opponent has a Leyline of the Void and also Surgical Extracts our Through the Breach. Do we just then go for manaramping into hard casting our threats and hope to win? Or is there more to the deck I'm not seeing?
2) What are some specific hate cards to watch out for? I know graveyard hate is obvious, but are there any no so obvious counters to Through the Breach, Griselbrand, ect?
1) With that example of yours, you're not fully hated out yet given that you're playing that MTG Goldfish list. You still have 4 Ilharg, the Raze-Boar. Generator Servant that bad boy out and pray they don't have removal. (Note that Leyline of the Void hoses the Ilharg-into-library trigger if Ilharg dies.)
I want the Ilharg combo to be cool but can't get over its flaws. Casting TTB or GYV and NOT winning on the turn seems terrible. It's hard enough to cast the combo once. Having to do it all over again is pushing it, even with Griselbrand. This deck can really leave you hanging after a non-lethal swing, even one where Emrakul triggered. I died after TTB + Emrakul plenty of times in testing.
Plus Ensnaring Bridge is everywhere and there are lots of other ways to thwart an attack step.
Finally, not winning at instant speed means you can lose to simple removal spells like Path to Exile.
Now...The deck did perform better after I tweaked some things, but I still wouldn't consider it Tier-1.
I cut the 3 Generator's Servant for 3 Desperate Ritual and never looked back. Servant has summoning sickness and dies to removal before he's relevant. He also only produces colorless, which can be a problem. Ritual is faster and enables a lot more on-turn kills where you combo twice.
I also don't like the Gemstone Cavern. It has too many conditions and seeing multiples can slow you down. You don't want any lands that don't produce B/R consistently because that can keep you from going off. I'm happy I didn't like it too because it costs a fortune.
Finally, I cut the 3 Cathartic Reunion for 3 Tormenting Voice. Having to pitch 2 cards is rough. Reunion was built for Dredge, where the drawback is actually an advantage.
The board I'm currently on is:
4 Challice (The best card in the sideboard hands down. Can flat out beat Tron, Burn, Phoenix, Ad Nauseam, discard spells etc. A big reason to even consider running this deck in a competitive event. I used to just run 3 but went up to 4 after I saw how powerful it was)
3 Thoughtseize (great v other combo and control, also bins a card if needed)
3 Abrade (good versatility, especially v a deck like humans)
1 Shattering Spree (4th piece of hate is crucial, especially for Bridge and Cage)
2 Lightning Axe
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
This is not set in stone. I may want 2 Anger of the Gods and am not sure if Axe is necessary. A 4th Abrade may be better than a Spree too. I haven't had a matchup where I needed lots of creature removal so not sure what's best in that scenario (would love some feedback).
I love the coolness of this deck, but have to admit it just feels like bad Grishoalbrand. Being able to win the turn you go off and continue to combo in response to things is much stronger. You also don't just die to Ensnaring Bridge. I want to play 4 Emrakul really bad, but not sure the pig is the best way to incorporate him. Of the new combos from War of the Spark I think Neo Form is probably better
You are making one big mistake regarding your assessment regarding Pig God: He is not a creature you want to cheat in, but it is a cheat spell itself while being decent on it's own. This means, that more often than not (as you have already said) using a cheat spell to get it into play is just really bad line (as long as the opp has no mana open and you have the kill basically).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Two possible Pig versions: All-in Pig vs Midrange Pig. All in Pig should be lethal with Griselbrand cause of Fury of the Hordes, but Griselbrand is usually already lethal with it so basically Pig is unnecessary. Emmi + Pig is usually also Lethal, but against flying Blockers where you can repeat it next turn (if you have not cheated Pig in) it sucks, cause with a cheated Pig you do not get the Annihilation trigger, which is the biggest appeal from Emmi.
So All-in Pig looks kinda wonky, cause when you already have a pay off creature which you can cheat it, you should have won already. Pig makes only sense, if you want to use it as a TTB 5-8, which is interesting, especially Post Board when graveyard hate is comming in from the opponent, since you are capable of cutting all the Goryo's while still having enough "cheat" spells.
However, this requires more Pentad Prism, since you have more 5 drops you want to cheat on turn 3 ideally. So a Playset Pentad Prism between the main/SB is a must as some numbers of Gemstone Cavern and SSG to have redundancy. Historically speaking, Pentad Prism was always iffy, cause it was just a bad ramp card, since it could get removed rather easily. So meh.
The Midrange build is kinda interesting, especially combined with LotV, pitching Pig does not harm you, it just slows you down by 2 turns realistically (you will have at least one redraw usually). Pig there is both a value beater (which is usually the biggest beater but flipped TiTi and Shadows) as a cheat spell. What creatures to cheat in that sort of build is an interesting question. The obvious ones, Griselbrand and Emmi are not really that good with it, you would want something like Rakdos the Defiler or Obzedat, Ghost Council to get the max benefits out of it. However, Rakdos sucks as a cheat creature and Obzedat is fine, but you would rather want to play it in a dedicated Midrange shell (like the Esper one, which saw play). Basically, Pig would be Goryo's 5-8 in that deck, which is fine, but not necessary (regarding the Esper shell).
So since Piggy is not that interesting in an all in version (since you always need another creature to actually do something) and decent in the Midrange build (cause of the anti-synergies with most cheat creatures you would want to play in that shell but Obzedat), something in the middle is needed. Basically a shell, where a TTB/Goryo's creature has as big of an influence as an creature cheated in via Piggy. I have ad-hoc no idea which creature this could be (Griselbrand is still the best one imo, cause it gives you redraws), the only one is Razaketh, the Foulblooded which is kinda a lackluster as a TTB target since it needs another creature to be able to generate a tutor chain (you TTB him, sac a creature to grab Goryo's to Goryo's him next turn for 16 damage).
So many things to ponder around, but for the time being I would want to test Piggy in a non Powder shell as TTB 5-6 pre board and TTB 5-8 post board.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I really would like to use Chalice of the Voids in SB, but what are the MUs you board them in? I've read this thread and seems like GDS is problematic opponent so that's one! I've mono red prison deck and I know that it's crazy good lockpiece against them.
I made some plans of my build: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1825992#paper
Here's a sneak peek of LGS meta:
12p - Dredge
9p - Nahiri Shift
9p - Vannifar combo
9p - Grixis Control
9p - R Burn
7p - Storm
7p - Red Prison
6p - Abzan
6p - Martyr Proc
6p - Boros Burn
6p - Grixis Shadow
6p - Abzan Rites
6p - Boros Burn
6p - Selesnya Midrange
6p - Death&Taxes
5p - Dice Factory
3p - Mardu Pyro
3p - Boros Burn
3p - Affinity
3p - UW Control
0p - BG Elves
0p - GW Tron
0p - UB Mill
0p - UB Mill
And if you got discord, would love to join and talk about the deck and stuff!
Tjuppus
There's a pretty active facebook page, so you may want to try that (search for "MTG - Modern Griselbrand Combo Decks")
4 Allosaurus Rider
3 Autochthon Wurm
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
2 Griselbrand
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Enchantments (1)
1 Seismic Assault
Instants (14)
1 Crimson Wisps
4 Manamorphose
4 Nourishing Shoal
1 Noxious Revival
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Neoform
4 Serum Visions
Land (16)
4 Botanical Sanctum
4 Breeding Pool
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Nature's Claim
4 Pact of Negation
3 Pongify
Yeah, some of us are trying the new Neoform variant in https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/808434-war-spoilers-keanu-reeves-dinosaur-cowboy! I have to admit that I don't think I've comboed off on Turn 2 so often since Blazing Shoal Infect.
The Neoform deck is still rather a glass cannon but scary fast; I suspect it will squeeze out pretty much all other combo decks that don't play counterspells because it's the fastest one out there, it dodges a fair few forms of hate, and all the other combo decks either play counterspells or get hit by the same hate.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Cheating in Emrakul with Ilharg doesn't give you the annihilator triggers, but it's still 15 damage. Cheating in Griselbrand with Ilharg is like having a Wurmcoil Engine or suited-up Bogle: you can put the game out of reach for your opponent with just the life gain, without drawing cards.
The Pentad Prism feels like it should be Vessel of Volatility instead. Vessel is harder to interact with and works better with Gemstone Caverns on the play.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Hello boys,
here a PIG version from the MOL:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=21974&d=348225&f=MO
it uses Generator Servant for ramp and give haste
Not bad.
I just have two questions:
1) What is the game plan for if we are fully hated out? Say the opponent has a Leyline of the Void and also Surgical Extracts our Through the Breach. Do we just then go for manaramping into hard casting our threats and hope to win? Or is there more to the deck I'm not seeing?
2) What are some specific hate cards to watch out for? I know graveyard hate is obvious, but are there any no so obvious counters to Through the Breach, Griselbrand, ect?
I like Thoughtseize in the sideboard as a proactive way to protect the combo. I lost 2 of the 6 matches... UW Control and UB Mill (which surprised me, but with surgical and unmoored ego, that deck was more difficult than I imagined it would be). I think I could have won UW match had I thought things throug better. I tried to draw with Griselbrand before attacking and taking out their Narsett (which prevents drawing more than one card) and several other costly miskaes.
Modern: BG Rock, Grixis Control, UW Control
Commander: Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
"Win or lose, naught to choose - all men are equal when their memory fades. No one knows, friends or foes, if Valhalla lies beyond the grave." - Motörhead “Deaf Forever”
1) With that example of yours, you're not fully hated out yet given that you're playing that MTG Goldfish list. You still have 4 Ilharg, the Raze-Boar. Generator Servant that bad boy out and pray they don't have removal. (Note that Leyline of the Void hoses the Ilharg-into-library trigger if Ilharg dies.)
2) Ensnaring Bridge is living hell for non-Nourishing Shoal builds of Goryo's Vengeance decks. Worse for us, Bridge is a semi-staple in Karn, the Great Creator wishboards, and Karn GC is becoming increasingly popular, even in rogue decks. Board your Abrades in.
As the poster above me alluded to, Narset, Parter of Veils makes Griselbrand practically unable to draw cards for as long as she lives.
Plus Ensnaring Bridge is everywhere and there are lots of other ways to thwart an attack step.
Finally, not winning at instant speed means you can lose to simple removal spells like Path to Exile.
Now...The deck did perform better after I tweaked some things, but I still wouldn't consider it Tier-1.
I cut the 3 Generator's Servant for 3 Desperate Ritual and never looked back. Servant has summoning sickness and dies to removal before he's relevant. He also only produces colorless, which can be a problem. Ritual is faster and enables a lot more on-turn kills where you combo twice.
I also don't like the Gemstone Cavern. It has too many conditions and seeing multiples can slow you down. You don't want any lands that don't produce B/R consistently because that can keep you from going off. I'm happy I didn't like it too because it costs a fortune.
Finally, I cut the 3 Cathartic Reunion for 3 Tormenting Voice. Having to pitch 2 cards is rough. Reunion was built for Dredge, where the drawback is actually an advantage.
The board I'm currently on is:
4 Challice (The best card in the sideboard hands down. Can flat out beat Tron, Burn, Phoenix, Ad Nauseam, discard spells etc. A big reason to even consider running this deck in a competitive event. I used to just run 3 but went up to 4 after I saw how powerful it was)
3 Thoughtseize (great v other combo and control, also bins a card if needed)
3 Abrade (good versatility, especially v a deck like humans)
1 Shattering Spree (4th piece of hate is crucial, especially for Bridge and Cage)
2 Lightning Axe
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
This is not set in stone. I may want 2 Anger of the Gods and am not sure if Axe is necessary. A 4th Abrade may be better than a Spree too. I haven't had a matchup where I needed lots of creature removal so not sure what's best in that scenario (would love some feedback).
I love the coolness of this deck, but have to admit it just feels like bad Grishoalbrand. Being able to win the turn you go off and continue to combo in response to things is much stronger. You also don't just die to Ensnaring Bridge. I want to play 4 Emrakul really bad, but not sure the pig is the best way to incorporate him. Of the new combos from War of the Spark I think Neo Form is probably better
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Is there some Grishoalbrand / reanimator discord ?
4 Ransack the Lab
2 night's whisper
1 collective brutality
1 fury of the horde
4 simian spirit guide
2 desperate ritual
1 Manamorphose
4 griselbrand
2 borborygmos enraged
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 goryo's vengeance
4 Through the breach
4 nourishing shoal
4 bloodstained mire
4 temple of malice
2 blackcleave cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
5 Swamp
3 mountain
Any thoughts on my main?