I just recently started playing this deck and I’ve gone through about 3 leagues now. And one thing I’ve noticed is how hard it is to lose once Geisel resolves. I’ve read through a lot of this thread and it seems like a lot of people will skip the drop down to 1-4 life in order to try again next turn. I have been pretty consistent at just going for it and I have only fizzled once or twice. My question is how much you go for it or hold back and knowing how to decide?
I am also interested in the ideal way to play against UWx control decks. In theory it seems like being able to splice on and then cast again the turn after should be pretty hard to beat, but my control MU has been abysmal(0-4). So I feel like I am missing something
Edit: I’ve been using Finalnubs list with a budget SB.
Most Grishoalbrand players don't play Defense Grid, although it certainly can be a SB tool if he feels it's needed.
I often go for it with the life total, unless of course there's some possibly Lightning Bolt action. Sometimes you can't beat them having a Lightning Bolt either way, so you go for it because you can possibly win if they don't have it and you can't win either way if they DO have it. I feel like if you are sure that you win next turn, then you don't need to go for it. If you are not sure, you should usually default to going for it. I have lost because I did not go for it, but rarely because I did go for it (or never that I can remember off-hand). It obviously depends on a lot of stuff, like what's on board for your opponent. Can they go off? Do they have lethal attackers or possibly lethal attackers (for example if they draw Cranial Plating or a Human to buff the Champions).
The condensed version is usually you go for it. I believe that it's correct.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I feel it's likely too slow, but both abilities are useful. I see this competing on the flex slots with brutality and lightning axe. As a creature it does nothing against removal unlike the alternatives, but it's a continuous source of selection and discard outlet (alternatives work only once in this department). Removal heavy decks (UWx Control, Mardu Pyro) are already good matchups, so it shouldn't be too bad for us to play 1-2 early creatures. I think it may be a question of efficiency vs. continuity (which leads me to believe the card is just too slow).
What do you think?
I kind of like this. So far I have been pretty unimpressed with the flex spots. I could actually see cutting the lightning axe and maybe a Cathartic Reunion(?) for a couple. I will test this out.
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Standard:
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
I just recently started playing this deck and I’ve gone through about 3 leagues now. And one thing I’ve noticed is how hard it is to lose once Geisel resolves. I’ve read through a lot of this thread and it seems like a lot of people will skip the drop down to 1-4 life in order to try again next turn. I have been pretty consistent at just going for it and I have only fizzled once or twice. My question is how much you go for it or hold back and knowing how to decide?
I am also interested in the ideal way to play against UWx control decks. In theory it seems like being able to splice on and then cast again the turn after should be pretty hard to beat, but my control MU has been abysmal(0-4). So I feel like I am missing something
Edit: I’ve been using Finalnubs list with a budget SB.
Experience to say it this way. On top of my head I know several cases where either one happened (lost cause I didn't continue and won cause I did wait). However, generally speaking, if you have enough resources (life and mana) and you do no expect, that the opp has much interaction, go fir it.
Ideal play against Control is do stuff EoT (or in his second Main, if you want to Breach a Wurm to force interaction before you get the Tokens) and than do stuff again in your turn. Other option is to do stuff when he taps low.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Don't bring in Moon against Control, it sucks. Pact (or Defense Grid) is way better.
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Hey guys, as maybe new player of Grishoalbrand deck, can someone summarize cons/pros of the deck now days?
1) How fast is it?
2) How hard is to win true GY hate?
3) Would U say its a good deck in Blood Moon meta?
4) Is Esper version viable also?
I'm long time magic player (playing for 12 years,aldo not modern) and I have been playing combo deck - Amulet Titan. Looking to swap ships as playing Amulet Titan in my meta is starting to be horrendous hard (50% meta is BM decks)
I have another option I am considering for the Humans/Death and Taxes matchups. Vengeful Pharaoh. It doesn't matter if they discard it. Freebooter can't take it. They can't Meddling Mage it and we have plenty of ways to discard it. Obviously we would still want a couple wraths so they can't play around it and just build up a sufficiently big board. Any thoughts?
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Standard:
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
Hey guys, as maybe new player of Grishoalbrand deck, can someone summarize cons/pros of the deck now days?
1) How fast is it?
2) How hard is to win true GY hate?
3) Would U say its a good deck in Blood Moon meta?
4) Is Esper version viable also?
I'm long time magic player (playing for 12 years,aldo not modern) and I have been playing combo deck - Amulet Titan. Looking to swap ships as playing Amulet Titan in my meta is starting to be horrendous hard (50% meta is BM decks)
thank you all
cheers
ad 1) 3.5 realistically. You have your turn 2 kills, but those are only 18% (IIRC) of the times. Turn 3 is way more likely, but between Turn 3 and 4 is the usual "go off" button to say it this way. Note: Playing against interaction delays this of course.
ad 2) Quite consistent. You have TTB which is more than sufficient to win through GY hate. Only problem is, that you do not get the Wurm Tokens from Worldspine Wurm, cause it is a dies trigger and not a ltb trigger :/ . Sometimes you need to combo off twice, sometimes once is sufficient (Wurm kills, Grisel draws good enough so that you can kill, Borbor + enough lands,...). Heck, against most decks which would board in hard GY hate you usually have enough time to hardcast Griselbrand.
ad 3) That deck is a Blood Moon deck, so guess what
ad 4) Might be. I made a draft a couple of months ago, would need to take a look at it again.
If you want to stick to a combo deck (and you want to play the best one), go for KCI. Griselbrand, while faster, is not nearly as consistent as KCI nor has it all the tools it has.
I have another option I am considering for the Humans/Death and Taxes matchups. Vengeful Pharaoh. It doesn't matter if they discard it. Freebooter can't take it. They can't Meddling Mage it and we have plenty of ways to discard it. Obviously we would still want a couple wraths so they can't play around it and just build up a sufficiently big board. Any thoughts?
I have two problems with it: It is (kinda) dead in your hand and you need to use him, as soon as you get damage, which results btw in a dead draw. Not a big fan at all from that card in this deck.
Necroplasm might be better if you want a sweeper like effect which is not a real sweeper.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Wall of Omens has been the key to unlock this deck. Digs, buys time, and allows you to Infernal Plunge to cast Breach on turn 3 if necessary. I've experimented with including 2-3 Restoration Angels and a singleton Kiki Jiki, but it's mostly too clunky. 3 Walls seems about right though. I'm pretty happy with the MD numbers, but the SB numbers need work. Linvala is suppose to be a grindy card that happens to come in against burn, but it hasn't impressed me. It's too hard to set up against burn a lot of the time, and Grave Titan is a better haymaker for the grindy matchups. I'd really like Timely Reinforcements in the SB for burn and other aggro, but it's so bad against humans it's hard to justify.
Thanks Kathal for in depth answers and sorry for not replying sooner, but I wanted to read last 50+ pages of this topic to get a better grasp of deck
I jammed few games on MODO and I have to say, I'm falling in love. Best part is, even in unfavored MU's u can still win t2-3 not caring much about their deck.
If it's not a problem and U still have it, can u provide me with your esper list? I would like to try few versions before I commit into paper version.
Hey guys, so I am fairly new to playing this archtype. I've been playing it for a few weeks now and these are the conclusions I've come to. Our deck can often combo off faster than any other deck in the format, our deck gets destroyed by hand disruption, and we aren't really a deck that needs to be interactive, we want to streamline our combo has much as possible. The list that I have been running i have adjusted as I've gone to suit what I feel it needs. the sideboard is mostly proactive with leyline of the void and sanctity to interupt hand disruption and graveyard based combo decks for when i get slow starts, sanctity is also great to make the burn match up very strong in our favor. If anyone has any thoughts on my list I would love to hear them, thank you!!
That deck is a dedicated Griselbrand combo deck (though, currently it is in development), while this one is a Goryo's/TTB combo deck. Though, if you want to stick to the Shoal version (I like it more atm, even though I want to develop a good dredge version tbh) you could do the following things:
- Add 1-2 Gemstone Caverns to be faster on the draw
- Add 1-2 Footsteps of Goryo, to be able to have more Griselbrand "cheat" spells. Though, I would play 1-2 Noxious Revival MD than (to be able to shift game plans from the Graveyard plan to the TTB plan).
For this I would cut 1-2 lands, 1 TTB and 1-2 Desperate Rituals (depending on how many Revivals you want to play). Also, I would play two Hugs instead of the split, if you want to go this route (cause you have more graveyard enabler).
@FeedMVP, please give me a reminder in the next couple of days, need to look through my decklists first and otherwise I will forget it
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
That deck is a dedicated Griselbrand combo deck (though, currently it is in development), while this one is a Goryo's/TTB combo deck. Though, if you want to stick to the Shoal version (I like it more atm, even though I want to develop a good dredge version tbh) you could do the following things:
- Add 1-2 Gemstone Caverns to be faster on the draw
- Add 1-2 Footsteps of Goryo, to be able to have more Griselbrand "cheat" spells. Though, I would play 1-2 Noxious Revival MD than (to be able to shift game plans from the Graveyard plan to the TTB plan).
For this I would cut 1-2 lands, 1 TTB and 1-2 Desperate Rituals (depending on how many Revivals you want to play). Also, I would play two Hugs instead of the split, if you want to go this route (cause you have more graveyard enabler).
@FeedMVP, please give me a reminder in the next couple of days, need to look through my decklists first and otherwise I will forget it
Greetings,
Kathal
this looks completely ridiculous and unreasonable. I'll have to try this one time..
How does this deck usually do vs a heavy U/W/x control meta? Was thinking about dumping my vials+other random stuff to grab some breaches. Currently playing grixis goryos/as foretold/living end but this looks more fun.
Whenever I am comboing off I usually have enough mana to just through the breach borborygmos into play. So I was just wondering how necessary everyone thought having the one of manamorphose in the deck was?
Manamorphose doesn't add mana, it costs 2 and gives you back 2. Instead it digs you one deeper into the deck for free on your combo turn. This is crucial if, e.g., you only have 5 cards left in your deck so you can't activate Griselbrand anymore, but you haven't found a Borborygmos yet.
Manamorphose is mostly for the tight combo turns where you are constrained on mana and need to convert Simian Spirit Guides into black mana for Goryo's Vengeance.
As spooly said, there are other corner cases where the library is 7>large and you need to hit a card using Manamorphose/looting. It also pitches to Nourishing Shoal in a pinch, help you cast Borborygmos Enraged, or Pact of Negation. Most of the times it's a free draw and a filter for Goryo's Vengeance
However, there have been some showings in the past few months, here is a link list: 10. August 10. April 24. April
Especially Chart a Course looks nutty. I play it in Delver and that card is REALLY good. It also kinda fixes the problem of getting a drawn fatty into the graveyard without going into R for Looting or playing horrific cards. Jace, Chart and Brutality should be good enough for this.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Used to have 3 Chalice of the Void. That's probably unnecessary and could be the slots for Leyline of Sanctity. You could do Leyline of the void, but I'm not sure where you find space.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
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I am also interested in the ideal way to play against UWx control decks. In theory it seems like being able to splice on and then cast again the turn after should be pretty hard to beat, but my control MU has been abysmal(0-4). So I feel like I am missing something
Edit: I’ve been using Finalnubs list with a budget SB.
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
I often go for it with the life total, unless of course there's some possibly Lightning Bolt action. Sometimes you can't beat them having a Lightning Bolt either way, so you go for it because you can possibly win if they don't have it and you can't win either way if they DO have it. I feel like if you are sure that you win next turn, then you don't need to go for it. If you are not sure, you should usually default to going for it. I have lost because I did not go for it, but rarely because I did go for it (or never that I can remember off-hand). It obviously depends on a lot of stuff, like what's on board for your opponent. Can they go off? Do they have lethal attackers or possibly lethal attackers (for example if they draw Cranial Plating or a Human to buff the Champions).
The condensed version is usually you go for it. I believe that it's correct.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I don’t run defense grid, but I’ll defined consider it. Is Blood Moon generally boardable for control matchups?
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
I kind of like this. So far I have been pretty unimpressed with the flex spots. I could actually see cutting the lightning axe and maybe a Cathartic Reunion(?) for a couple. I will test this out.
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
Ideal play against Control is do stuff EoT (or in his second Main, if you want to Breach a Wurm to force interaction before you get the Tokens) and than do stuff again in your turn. Other option is to do stuff when he taps low.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Don't bring in Moon against Control, it sucks. Pact (or Defense Grid) is way better.
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
1) How fast is it?
2) How hard is to win true GY hate?
3) Would U say its a good deck in Blood Moon meta?
4) Is Esper version viable also?
I'm long time magic player (playing for 12 years,aldo not modern) and I have been playing combo deck - Amulet Titan. Looking to swap ships as playing Amulet Titan in my meta is starting to be horrendous hard (50% meta is BM decks)
thank you all
cheers
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
ad 1) 3.5 realistically. You have your turn 2 kills, but those are only 18% (IIRC) of the times. Turn 3 is way more likely, but between Turn 3 and 4 is the usual "go off" button to say it this way. Note: Playing against interaction delays this of course.
ad 2) Quite consistent. You have TTB which is more than sufficient to win through GY hate. Only problem is, that you do not get the Wurm Tokens from Worldspine Wurm, cause it is a dies trigger and not a ltb trigger :/ . Sometimes you need to combo off twice, sometimes once is sufficient (Wurm kills, Grisel draws good enough so that you can kill, Borbor + enough lands,...). Heck, against most decks which would board in hard GY hate you usually have enough time to hardcast Griselbrand.
ad 3) That deck is a Blood Moon deck, so guess what
ad 4) Might be. I made a draft a couple of months ago, would need to take a look at it again.
If you want to stick to a combo deck (and you want to play the best one), go for KCI. Griselbrand, while faster, is not nearly as consistent as KCI nor has it all the tools it has.
I have two problems with it: It is (kinda) dead in your hand and you need to use him, as soon as you get damage, which results btw in a dead draw. Not a big fan at all from that card in this deck.
Necroplasm might be better if you want a sweeper like effect which is not a real sweeper.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Godless Shrine
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Blood Crypt
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
3 Temple of Malice
2 Temple of Triumph
1 Temple of Silence
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
4 Griselbrand
2 Night's Whisper
1 Cathartic Reunion
3 Wall of Omens
1 Collective Brutality
1 Lightning Axe
3 Fateful Showdown
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
2 Infernal Plunge
3 Blood Moon
2 Wear // Tear
2 Collective Brutality
2 Linvala, the Preserver
1 Guttural Response
2 Defense Grid
1 Pyroclasm
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
Wall of Omens has been the key to unlock this deck. Digs, buys time, and allows you to Infernal Plunge to cast Breach on turn 3 if necessary. I've experimented with including 2-3 Restoration Angels and a singleton Kiki Jiki, but it's mostly too clunky. 3 Walls seems about right though. I'm pretty happy with the MD numbers, but the SB numbers need work. Linvala is suppose to be a grindy card that happens to come in against burn, but it hasn't impressed me. It's too hard to set up against burn a lot of the time, and Grave Titan is a better haymaker for the grindy matchups. I'd really like Timely Reinforcements in the SB for burn and other aggro, but it's so bad against humans it's hard to justify.
I jammed few games on MODO and I have to say, I'm falling in love. Best part is, even in unfavored MU's u can still win t2-3 not caring much about their deck.
If it's not a problem and U still have it, can u provide me with your esper list? I would like to try few versions before I commit into paper version.
thx
4x faithless looting
4x Through the Breach
4x Nourishing Shoal
4x Goryo's Vengeance
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Nights Whisper
1x Cathartic Reunion
1x tormenting voice
2x manamorphose
4x Griselbrand
4x Worldspine Wurm
2x Borborygmos Enraged
4x simian spirit guide
Lands
2x swamp
1x mountain
4x bloodstained mire
4x blood crypt
3x blackcleave cliffs
4x temple of malice
4x Leyline of sanctity
4x Pact of negation
4x Leyline of the void
3x Anger of the gods
That deck is a dedicated Griselbrand combo deck (though, currently it is in development), while this one is a Goryo's/TTB combo deck. Though, if you want to stick to the Shoal version (I like it more atm, even though I want to develop a good dredge version tbh) you could do the following things:
- Add 1-2 Gemstone Caverns to be faster on the draw
- Add 1-2 Footsteps of Goryo, to be able to have more Griselbrand "cheat" spells. Though, I would play 1-2 Noxious Revival MD than (to be able to shift game plans from the Graveyard plan to the TTB plan).
For this I would cut 1-2 lands, 1 TTB and 1-2 Desperate Rituals (depending on how many Revivals you want to play). Also, I would play two Hugs instead of the split, if you want to go this route (cause you have more graveyard enabler).
@FeedMVP, please give me a reminder in the next couple of days, need to look through my decklists first and otherwise I will forget it
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Reminder
thx
Manamorphose doesn't add mana, it costs 2 and gives you back 2. Instead it digs you one deeper into the deck for free on your combo turn. This is crucial if, e.g., you only have 5 cards left in your deck so you can't activate Griselbrand anymore, but you haven't found a Borborygmos yet.
As spooly said, there are other corner cases where the library is 7>large and you need to hit a card using Manamorphose/looting. It also pitches to Nourishing Shoal in a pinch, help you cast Borborygmos Enraged, or Pact of Negation. Most of the times it's a free draw and a filter for Goryo's Vengeance
I knew, I forgot something
Sorry mate:
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Darkslick Shores
3 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Shambling Vent
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
//Inst and Sorcs
2 Collective Brutality
3 Fatal Push
4 Goryo's Vengeance
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
3 Path to Exile
3 Pieces of the Puzzle
3 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
2 Thoughtseize
1 Celestial Purge
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Disenchant
1 Fragmentize
2 Rain of Tears
2 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Timely Reinforcements
However, there have been some showings in the past few months, here is a link list:
10. August
10. April
24. April
Especially Chart a Course looks nutty. I play it in Delver and that card is REALLY good. It also kinda fixes the problem of getting a drawn fatty into the graveyard without going into R for Looting or playing horrific cards. Jace, Chart and Brutality should be good enough for this.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Used to have 3 Chalice of the Void. That's probably unnecessary and could be the slots for Leyline of Sanctity. You could do Leyline of the void, but I'm not sure where you find space.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)