alright spooly that's another 5-0. give it to us straight - how good is the deck actually?!
It can't be tier 1 right now because humans is an awful matchup, and none of the aggro matchups are good. But many aggro matchups aren't bad either - BR Hollow One and Affinity feel pretty close to me. It crushes all the big mana decks. Tron, Valakut, Amulet, you name it. And fair decks without countermagic tend to be decent matchups. Seems like it should be one of the tier 2 decks bubbling under the surface of the modern metagame, waiting for its week to be well positioned.
Your advice was very helpful, btw. Defense Grid and Grave Titan have both been very good.
The deck's worst matchup is humans, which is not a good place to be right now. And its second worse matchup is itself.
The white splash seemed good though. Timely Reinforcements and Wear/Tear impressed (killing Leyline of the Void against Hollow One is very relevant), and more scrylands helps a bit too.
Glad you have been finding success. White seems interesting, although I'm a bit skeptical I'd like to try it. Splashing a third color is something I've always been hesitant to do because a big strength of BR Grishoalbrand was a very clean mana base. Children seems a bit too nichey with it having no relevant text without Griselbrand unless you're dying by a thousand cut. Would love to hear how you find it. I plan on testing more Griselbrand nonsense like these and maybe stream it after the pt
speaking of which, Gerry Thompson suggested a new deck idea that foregoes the borby package and jams soul spikes and Torgaar. Idea is cool in theory, but I see a few problems with it, such as not being able to win at instant speed, Torgaar being a ground attacker, not being able to beat Bridge nearly as easily, etc. Cool concept though so I'll probably try it out at some time.
Glad you have been finding success. White seems interesting, although I'm a bit skeptical I'd like to try it. Splashing a third color is something I've always been hesitant to do because a big strength of BR Grishoalbrand was a very clean mana base. Children seems a bit too nichey with it having no relevant text without Griselbrand unless you're dying by a thousand cut. Would love to hear how you find it. I plan on testing more Griselbrand nonsense like these and maybe stream it after the pt
The manabase is only a little less clean, give how light the splash is, but you're right that it's a concern. I think what puts it over the top is getting to play more scrylands. They're so good.
Children would have to serve the same or a similar role to Infernal Plunge and possibly replace it --- a crucial piece for the Griselbrand combo turn to get through the "must hit 2 spirit guides or have untapped mana" bottleneck. The big problem with Children is that it requires white mana, and typically only red mana is readily available that turn. A solution is to work Manamorphose into the deck, but but you still need to hit 2 mana on the combo turn for that to work, which is what Plunge is supposed to help fix. So short of a better idea than Manamorphose, replacing Plunge with Children doesn't seem like a good idea. But I'm considering trying both, which best case scenario would make the Griselbrand combo as consistent as possible in this shell, and worst case won't be worth the slots.
By the way, a neat trick with the white build is that Timely gives you tokens to sacrifice to Plunge, e.g. if you're trying to get up to breach mana. Haven't had the opportunity to do that yet though.
speaking of which, Gerry Thompson suggested a new deck idea that foregoes the borby package and jams soul spikes and Torgaar. Idea is cool in theory, but I see a few problems with it, such as not being able to win at instant speed, Torgaar being a ground attacker, not being able to beat Bridge nearly as easily, etc. Cool concept though so I'll probably try it out at some time.
Yeah, I saw Torgaar and immediately tried to figure out how to fit him into one of these shells. But being a ground pounder is a real problem. I'm not optimistic, but I'll definitely be paying attention to what people try.
If you're talking about the Nourishing Shoal lists, I'm sure there are videos around. There's probably some older ones on Channel Fireball.
If you're talking about the newer lists we're discussing in this thread, I don't think they exist. As far as I know, I'm the only one really playing the Fateful Showdown build and I haven't recorded any vids, and the Torgaar build so far is just a twinkle in Gerry Thompson's eye.
Thanks for the response Spooly. I am asking because I'm wondering which deck is better, and I'd like to see the Showdown in action ... Do you play it because you feel it is stronger or because you enjoy it?
I haven't played the shoal version enough to know which is better.
The main reason I play it is because, until now, it's unexplored territory. So there's a chance to find a broken shell. Not that I think that it's likely, but there still feels like there's a fair amount of potential here. The biggest strike against it (and against all Griselbrand shells, I expect), is that Humans is an atrocious matchup.
I have a question for those of you who've been playing the deck for a while: Turn 1 you Faithless Looting, bin a Griselbrand and you have a Goryo's Vengeance in your hand. They go, do something irrelevant and then it's your turn.
Do you:
a) Play another land, Goryo's and combo off.
b) Play a land, pass the turn, Goryo's on their end step, and combo off in your next turn (so you have more mana available).
I find that I get this decision quite a bit. Sometimes it's with Through the Breach instead (which is even trickier because it often involves using a mana monkey, but waiting to their end step usually means taking more damage).
If I know that my opponent can't interact with me that turn, then I go for it 99% of the time. But be smart about your Griselbrand activations. See what you get in your first 7. If you find Spirit Guide + Plunge, for example, I'd go for the kill. But many times it's correct to only draw 7 or 14, then sculpt a powerful 7 card hand that can try for the kill next turn or soon after. Depends on the matchup, the board state, and the cards you see from your Griselbrand activations. You have to constantly be weighing the probability of hitting what you need to kill off of another Griselbrand activation vs. the possible downsides if you miss.
Same for Emrakul. If I know that I can get an Emrakul hit in, even if it only blows up 2 lands and puts them to 5, I'll do it fairly often. Though in this case I'm more willing to wait, because Emrakul doesn't set your hand up for the next turn like Griselbrand does. Especially if I don't expect my opponent to be able to interact. But against any deck that really values its mana (say control decks, tron, valakut), I will snap off an Emrakul that double stone rains them.
I’m very intrigued by this Fateful Showdown list, but am very hesitant to give up the shoal package and the splice. At least it has an instant speed win, though. I am unwilling to play most of the non-shoal versions because having to use the combat step is too much of a liability. I’m not sure this list is better, but it has some potential and I always want a new version to be unstoppable. You could even do a hybrid and put a Showdown in place of the cathartic or the second Borbo to give emergency removal or direct damage against thngs like shadow.
I have often wanted to play Children of Korlis, but splashing white never seemed worth it. And even if you do splash white, having it available on the combo turn seems difficult. In theory you could basically have the lifegain of the shoal package for half the cards. Of course you also lose the splice and ttb Wurm options. If I were splashing white anyway (as you are, Spooly) I would certainly give it a shot. Seems easy enough to keep up a white if you are winning after turn 2, or find room for some Manamorphose.
Maybe splashing for another color is more attractive if blood moon is no longer well-positioned and burn/hyper-aggro dies down. Blue has some powerful options.
I’ve alwsys hated cathartic in the shoal version. You almost never have two cards you want to pitch. Currently I have 1 axe, 1 brutality and a tormenting voice. I’ve been meaning to try insolent neonate. It would be nice to have a discard outlet waiting around until you know if you will ttb or Goryo. Also a blocker could be nice. I think I’ll give it a shot.
Im also curious about dampening sphere. If it gets played a lot, it will be very annoying. Thalia was already a concern and this will have a similar effect. We can an play more EE, shattering spree or even abrade if we need to (abrade may already be something we should consider.) My guess is that it won’t get as much play as people think for very long. The decks it’s good against are already prepared for artifact based hate, so it’s not lights out but rather a speed bump.
If Torgaar had evasion, I think that version would be good. But, I’m guessing as a ground pounder it will be too easy for it to be a very complicated burn spell.
Anyway, I love how this group is always looking st new ideas, but trying them and vetting them before blindly praising whatever the new thing is.
I have a question for those of you who've been playing the deck for a while: Turn 1 you Faithless Looting, bin a Griselbrand and you have a Goryo's Vengeance in your hand. They go, do something irrelevant and then it's your turn.
Do you:
a) Play another land, Goryo's and combo off.
b) Play a land, pass the turn, Goryo's on their end step, and combo off in your next turn (so you have more mana available).
I find that I get this decision quite a bit. Sometimes it's with Through the Breach instead (which is even trickier because it often involves using a mana monkey, but waiting to their end step usually means taking more damage).
Thoughts?
It really depends on your opponent and the texture of your hand. It can be good to go for it while you know they won’t be able to interact. With full life, you will almost certainly get there or set yourself up to get there next turn. If you have a shoal or a Wurm in hand things get even better. But, if your opponent is on a deck without discard, counters or aggression (what terrible deck is this?) waiting to do it on their end step gets you more mana and virtually guarantees a win the followng turn. This same type of decision comes up all the time and gets more complicated as the game goes longer. Life totals dip, your opponent plays more cards and has more mana, etc etc. It’s usually right to go for it sooner rather than later, but definitely not always the case.
It’s more likely to be a good idea to wait until end step if you’re using ttb, especially early. To ttb on turn 2, you’re using 3 sources of fast mana, which doesn’t leave you much to finish them off. Without enough fast mana you won’t be able to get Borbo in play, which means you’re probably setting up for the next turn anyway.
Of course a breached Wurm on 2 is pretty great against any deck.
for the red version i'm running Zurgo Bellstriker to power the mox amber, but i'm getting a lot of openers where mox is dead draw. its better than the simian spirit guide to some extent. but not the bang I was thinking it would be.
I'm surprised there hasn't been much talk about Torgaar, Famine Incarnate, I'm not miss reading it am I?
feels like a new target for goryo's vengeance equal to griselbrand. If its unblocked it should take an opponent to 3, putting them into bolt range.
if you pull it off turn 2 it can disable there ability to crack fetches and make them unable to pay for lands to enter tapped.
Do you have any list with children of korsis in the deck? what about using children and mox amber instead of shoal and wurm?
I've brewed up a Chilrdren of Korlis list or two, and even ran one through a league. The problem with Children is that it doesn't solve any of the fundamental problems with the deck, and requires you to have an additional color of mana on the combo turn. With the Fateful Showdown kill, you only need red mana, which is easy to obtain between Simian Spirit Guide and various rituals. Children requires white mana, which requires either an untapped white source, or something like Manamorphose. You can try building around Manamorphose and maybe some other things, but the payoff is only a slightly more effective combo kill from Griselbrand.
Mox Amber is different. Basically, it's a source of black mana whenever you have Griselbrand in play, but *only* then. Otherwise it is a dead card. So you can use it to set up a second Goryo's Vengeance on the Griselbrand turn, e.g. for a lethal Emrakul or Torgaar, or use it to help get to 4 mana to cast Fateful Showdown for the win. The problem with the latter plan is that Amber only produces black mana, so you still need to have an untapped red source or hit a Simian Spirit Guide. Infernal Plunge is a better version of Mox Amber for the Fateful Showdown plan in almost every way: both are sorcery speed, both require a Griselbrand in play to do anything, bot require an untapped red source or a Spirit Guide to give you a kill, but Plunge nets you 2 mana, and of the right color. If you're playing something like Timely Reinforcements, then Plunge can even help get you to Breach mana, where Mox Amber is completely worthless for that. The main downside is that you can't use more than one Plunge on your combo turn, but you can use multiple Mox Amber. So it's possible that if you wanted to max out on Plunge, it would be better to shave 1-2 for 1-2 Mox Amber.
for the red version i'm running Zurgo Bellstriker to power the mox amber, but i'm getting a lot of openers where mox is dead draw. its better than the simian spirit guide to some extent. but not the bang I was thinking it would be.
I don't think you can realistically use Amber to do anything other than produce mana the turn you put Griselbrand into play. Trying to use it to power out Through the Breach requires too many legends, which dilutes the deck with bad cards.
I'm surprised there hasn't been much talk about Torgaar, Famine Incarnate, I'm not miss reading it am I?
feels like a new target for goryo's vengeance equal to griselbrand. If its unblocked it should take an opponent to 3, putting them into bolt range.
if you pull it off turn 2 it can disable there ability to crack fetches and make them unable to pay for lands to enter tapped.
The big problem with Torgaar is that it doesn't have evasion. "If it's not blocked" is a relatively tough condition to meet when the best decks in the format are aggro decks that put a pile of creatures into play.
That said, It's an alternative way to kill off Griselbrand: find a Torgaar, and either a Looting + Goryo's + Mox Amber (and other mana), or Breach + mana, then hope the way is clear. The main upside to this kill is taking up less slots in the deck that you can devote to other things, like interaction or more digging.
I asked that back on 4/9 and no one had an opinion:
I don't think dampening sphere will be that much of an impact. Worst case scenario we'll need to run a main deck EE or Abrade
It can't be tier 1 right now because humans is an awful matchup, and none of the aggro matchups are good. But many aggro matchups aren't bad either - BR Hollow One and Affinity feel pretty close to me. It crushes all the big mana decks. Tron, Valakut, Amulet, you name it. And fair decks without countermagic tend to be decent matchups. Seems like it should be one of the tier 2 decks bubbling under the surface of the modern metagame, waiting for its week to be well positioned.
Your advice was very helpful, btw. Defense Grid and Grave Titan have both been very good.
The deck's worst matchup is humans, which is not a good place to be right now. And its second worse matchup is itself.
The white splash seemed good though. Timely Reinforcements and Wear/Tear impressed (killing Leyline of the Void against Hollow One is very relevant), and more scrylands helps a bit too.
Next on the docket to try: Children of Korlis.
Edit: decklist
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Infernal Plunge
4 Faithless Looting
2 Cathartic Reunion
3 Night's Whisper
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Collective Brutality
1 Lightning Axe
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
2 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Swamp
4 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Triumph
1 Collective Brutality
1 Timely Reinforcements
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Blood Moon
2 Defense Grid
2 Grave Titan
1 Guttural Response
1 Pyroclasm
2 Wear // Tear
speaking of which, Gerry Thompson suggested a new deck idea that foregoes the borby package and jams soul spikes and Torgaar. Idea is cool in theory, but I see a few problems with it, such as not being able to win at instant speed, Torgaar being a ground attacker, not being able to beat Bridge nearly as easily, etc. Cool concept though so I'll probably try it out at some time.
The manabase is only a little less clean, give how light the splash is, but you're right that it's a concern. I think what puts it over the top is getting to play more scrylands. They're so good.
Children would have to serve the same or a similar role to Infernal Plunge and possibly replace it --- a crucial piece for the Griselbrand combo turn to get through the "must hit 2 spirit guides or have untapped mana" bottleneck. The big problem with Children is that it requires white mana, and typically only red mana is readily available that turn. A solution is to work Manamorphose into the deck, but but you still need to hit 2 mana on the combo turn for that to work, which is what Plunge is supposed to help fix. So short of a better idea than Manamorphose, replacing Plunge with Children doesn't seem like a good idea. But I'm considering trying both, which best case scenario would make the Griselbrand combo as consistent as possible in this shell, and worst case won't be worth the slots.
By the way, a neat trick with the white build is that Timely gives you tokens to sacrifice to Plunge, e.g. if you're trying to get up to breach mana. Haven't had the opportunity to do that yet though.
Yeah, I saw Torgaar and immediately tried to figure out how to fit him into one of these shells. But being a ground pounder is a real problem. I'm not optimistic, but I'll definitely be paying attention to what people try.
If you're talking about the newer lists we're discussing in this thread, I don't think they exist. As far as I know, I'm the only one really playing the Fateful Showdown build and I haven't recorded any vids, and the Torgaar build so far is just a twinkle in Gerry Thompson's eye.
The main reason I play it is because, until now, it's unexplored territory. So there's a chance to find a broken shell. Not that I think that it's likely, but there still feels like there's a fair amount of potential here. The biggest strike against it (and against all Griselbrand shells, I expect), is that Humans is an atrocious matchup.
Do you:
a) Play another land, Goryo's and combo off.
b) Play a land, pass the turn, Goryo's on their end step, and combo off in your next turn (so you have more mana available).
I find that I get this decision quite a bit. Sometimes it's with Through the Breach instead (which is even trickier because it often involves using a mana monkey, but waiting to their end step usually means taking more damage).
Thoughts?
Same for Emrakul. If I know that I can get an Emrakul hit in, even if it only blows up 2 lands and puts them to 5, I'll do it fairly often. Though in this case I'm more willing to wait, because Emrakul doesn't set your hand up for the next turn like Griselbrand does. Especially if I don't expect my opponent to be able to interact. But against any deck that really values its mana (say control decks, tron, valakut), I will snap off an Emrakul that double stone rains them.
I’m very intrigued by this Fateful Showdown list, but am very hesitant to give up the shoal package and the splice. At least it has an instant speed win, though. I am unwilling to play most of the non-shoal versions because having to use the combat step is too much of a liability. I’m not sure this list is better, but it has some potential and I always want a new version to be unstoppable. You could even do a hybrid and put a Showdown in place of the cathartic or the second Borbo to give emergency removal or direct damage against thngs like shadow.
I have often wanted to play Children of Korlis, but splashing white never seemed worth it. And even if you do splash white, having it available on the combo turn seems difficult. In theory you could basically have the lifegain of the shoal package for half the cards. Of course you also lose the splice and ttb Wurm options. If I were splashing white anyway (as you are, Spooly) I would certainly give it a shot. Seems easy enough to keep up a white if you are winning after turn 2, or find room for some Manamorphose.
Maybe splashing for another color is more attractive if blood moon is no longer well-positioned and burn/hyper-aggro dies down. Blue has some powerful options.
I’ve alwsys hated cathartic in the shoal version. You almost never have two cards you want to pitch. Currently I have 1 axe, 1 brutality and a tormenting voice. I’ve been meaning to try insolent neonate. It would be nice to have a discard outlet waiting around until you know if you will ttb or Goryo. Also a blocker could be nice. I think I’ll give it a shot.
Im also curious about dampening sphere. If it gets played a lot, it will be very annoying. Thalia was already a concern and this will have a similar effect. We can an play more EE, shattering spree or even abrade if we need to (abrade may already be something we should consider.) My guess is that it won’t get as much play as people think for very long. The decks it’s good against are already prepared for artifact based hate, so it’s not lights out but rather a speed bump.
If Torgaar had evasion, I think that version would be good. But, I’m guessing as a ground pounder it will be too easy for it to be a very complicated burn spell.
Anyway, I love how this group is always looking st new ideas, but trying them and vetting them before blindly praising whatever the new thing is.
It really depends on your opponent and the texture of your hand. It can be good to go for it while you know they won’t be able to interact. With full life, you will almost certainly get there or set yourself up to get there next turn. If you have a shoal or a Wurm in hand things get even better. But, if your opponent is on a deck without discard, counters or aggression (what terrible deck is this?) waiting to do it on their end step gets you more mana and virtually guarantees a win the followng turn. This same type of decision comes up all the time and gets more complicated as the game goes longer. Life totals dip, your opponent plays more cards and has more mana, etc etc. It’s usually right to go for it sooner rather than later, but definitely not always the case.
It’s more likely to be a good idea to wait until end step if you’re using ttb, especially early. To ttb on turn 2, you’re using 3 sources of fast mana, which doesn’t leave you much to finish them off. Without enough fast mana you won’t be able to get Borbo in play, which means you’re probably setting up for the next turn anyway.
Of course a breached Wurm on 2 is pretty great against any deck.
its not getting me to 5 mana any faster either for through the breach.
feels like a new target for goryo's vengeance equal to griselbrand. If its unblocked it should take an opponent to 3, putting them into bolt range.
if you pull it off turn 2 it can disable there ability to crack fetches and make them unable to pay for lands to enter tapped.
I've brewed up a Chilrdren of Korlis list or two, and even ran one through a league. The problem with Children is that it doesn't solve any of the fundamental problems with the deck, and requires you to have an additional color of mana on the combo turn. With the Fateful Showdown kill, you only need red mana, which is easy to obtain between Simian Spirit Guide and various rituals. Children requires white mana, which requires either an untapped white source, or something like Manamorphose. You can try building around Manamorphose and maybe some other things, but the payoff is only a slightly more effective combo kill from Griselbrand.
Mox Amber is different. Basically, it's a source of black mana whenever you have Griselbrand in play, but *only* then. Otherwise it is a dead card. So you can use it to set up a second Goryo's Vengeance on the Griselbrand turn, e.g. for a lethal Emrakul or Torgaar, or use it to help get to 4 mana to cast Fateful Showdown for the win. The problem with the latter plan is that Amber only produces black mana, so you still need to have an untapped red source or hit a Simian Spirit Guide. Infernal Plunge is a better version of Mox Amber for the Fateful Showdown plan in almost every way: both are sorcery speed, both require a Griselbrand in play to do anything, bot require an untapped red source or a Spirit Guide to give you a kill, but Plunge nets you 2 mana, and of the right color. If you're playing something like Timely Reinforcements, then Plunge can even help get you to Breach mana, where Mox Amber is completely worthless for that. The main downside is that you can't use more than one Plunge on your combo turn, but you can use multiple Mox Amber. So it's possible that if you wanted to max out on Plunge, it would be better to shave 1-2 for 1-2 Mox Amber.
I don't think you can realistically use Amber to do anything other than produce mana the turn you put Griselbrand into play. Trying to use it to power out Through the Breach requires too many legends, which dilutes the deck with bad cards.
The big problem with Torgaar is that it doesn't have evasion. "If it's not blocked" is a relatively tough condition to meet when the best decks in the format are aggro decks that put a pile of creatures into play.
That said, It's an alternative way to kill off Griselbrand: find a Torgaar, and either a Looting + Goryo's + Mox Amber (and other mana), or Breach + mana, then hope the way is clear. The main upside to this kill is taking up less slots in the deck that you can devote to other things, like interaction or more digging.