I think Borbor looks more desperate, since Bobor is an actually win condition for the Griselbrand line. Furthermore, if he plays Tarfire next turn Borbor would be not enough, which makes countering it more jucy.
Basically, we want to present the juiciest option to get countered and I think Borbor is more juicy (cause it really looks desperate and indicates, that we do not have anything in hand).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
We agree we are trying to make a juicy shoal to get countered. Perhaps the Borbo seems more desperate, but the Wurm is a better wincon with the current board state, which is why I thought it seemed more desperate.
If it is GFab's list, it doesn't play tarfire. But, if it did, why would they counter a spell that doesn't save us?
Also, hopefully they activate relic so we can get rid of the ssg and shrink their goyfs.
I was not liking fury’s either. And the ax is the only instant speed discard I could find. Do you have any recommendations for replacements? I haven’t had any time to test axs so if you have knowledge of how they play in this deck I’m open for that too.
cast breach on our turn (pointless. we cant pact and win and we can lose our win con for no apparent reason)
shoal splicing ttb (we are super soft to permission. basically all eggs in one basket)
we can simplify this problem by stating that resolving a breach without using pact wins us the game. we can also reasonably state that surviving to next turn alive wins us the match with our pact (unless he plays a blocker. then we have a problem)
so i think we should start anythimg we do by casting shoal.in theory gaining 11 to 17 buys us an extra turn, but any number of factors can ruin that (burn, creature). and i agree pitching borby looks weaker.
the last question is whether to main phase shoal or on their upkeep. if we dont have pact i think shoaling on their upkeep is superior. if countered, we can resolve breach and likely win from there. if it resolves, take the hit and hope breach plus pact wins.
as it stands i dont think potrntially constricting their blue mana has much benefit, whereas if they counter our mainphase shoal we will be in a commanding position. also resolving breach on their turn may not be a win if they have nonsense like vapor snag or echoing truths
i think shoal pitch borb to lead off your main phase is the play
as played, i played the worst way possible and got rewarded :p. i upkeep shoal pitch borb splice ttb my wurm, which got vapor snagged?!?! i breached on my turn after he failed to find a second blue+permission and i won
1 Looting (or discard outlet)
1 Goryo's vengeance
2 fast mana sources (one of them being able to cast the Looting/1 mana discard outlet)
1 Griselbrand
1 Black producing land
The chance on a turn 2 kill is roughly 20% and this requires even more stuff, so nope, not really feasible. Furthermore, it would make the deck overall way worse, cause you are playing more garbage (Chancellor is crappy, same is true for Manamorphose).
Hence, the "dream" of a turn 1 kill is not worth it.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
For those curious, I took the list to GP OKC.
7-2 on Day 1, 2-4 on Day 2 (mostly due to bad play)
You can find all my thoughts of the deck earlier on these threads.
For those curious, I took the list to GP OKC.
7-2 on Day 1, 2-4 on Day 2 (mostly due to bad play)
You can find all my thoughts of the deck earlier on these threads.
Would love to hear about your matches and your list for sure..!
I've been fiddling with the deck for the last week or so and I've noticed that I've been boarding out Borborygmos almost every single match up to the point where I ask whether his two MB slots could be used for something more proactive; in this case MB Blood Moons as they seem to be positioned great against most of the meta.
I realize that B.B. is used to win out combat lock and sometimes used as a Shoal fodder, however, what are your thoughts?
EDIT: Furthermore, I don't typically use Manamorphose in many of my matches, unless I've screwed up 'going off', is it cuttable?
Which matchups are you siding out Borborygmos in? I almost never side out Borborygmos. One of the appeals to the deck is you can invalidate path/removal and win instant speed. Without Borborygmos, you give your control opponents free reign to tap out on our turn, make path an unbeatable wall, and some other corner case applications like beating bridges, requiring an extra Angel's Grace from Ad Nauseam, mini-comboing with Borborygmos to clear hatebears etc.
Blood Moon is fine this this meta, but IMO we are a combo deck first and foremost and we need to maximize our G1 win percentage. To me a card that does not contribute to our g1 plan A has no place in the main deck.
If you do not want to play with Borborygmos, I think you should be playing the Grixis/BR goryo's deck and swap out wurms for emrakuls and the shoal package for cantrips, IMO.
Lastly, Manamorphose at worst replaces itself, and at best enables instant speed kills when resource constrained by allowing you to make black mana from just SSGs and rituals.
just went 6-3 in the Modern PTQ Finals last weekend (should've been 7-2, but MTGO ****ed me with the splice bug. Was up 1 game and had to shoal splice vengeance, respond with original vengeance to his relic. of course the game glitched out and I lost the "Second second" game and game 3).
This was a particularly frustrating spot for me. A lot of moving pieces here. I breached in a wurm while he was tapped out. From the previous play pattern, I suspected, but was not sure, that he had a path from the beginning. I know for a fact that he just drew a path from his Courser. So his hand is a path+a suspected path.
Ignore the looting for a second. You start the turn with 4 lands in play, Vengeance/Looting/Hug in hand. Is my move as clear cut as it seems? What would you do?!
I just ran into this issue on MTGO too. didn't realize how tilting it is to play this on MTGO
Ongoing Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Vryn Wingmare incorrectly add to the cost to use splice onto Arcane abilities. Cardset (Commander, Legacy, Modern)
Yeah, if you try to splice a targetted spell into an untargetted spell, modo can't handle it. It's really frustrating as that's how I like to beat spell Queller.
I already knew that. I meant the Thalia incorrectly taxing the splice cost
That's terrible.
Just out of curiousity, have you played against the new Mono Blue Living End list yet? It seems solid for us, but probably close to 50/50 if they get too much countermagic online.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I have! (and I have also played it too. it's an amusing deck, and I think it has potential).
There is a few key angles we need to consider. I haven't played too many matchups to fully understand the ins and outs of the matchup, but I have surmised the following:
1) If you put a Griselbrand into the graveyard, they realistically must a) Tolaria west for their 1-of-Bojuka Bog before they go off (or draw the Bog, so 5 outs) or b) have enough lands to start casting Curators or c) build up enough enough As Foretold counters to cast those dorks for free
2) The game gets infinitely harder when they can get a fast As Foretold going. Mana no longer becomes a bottleneck for them. Together with Ancestral Visions they'll overwhelm us with too many counterspells before long.
3) Post board some lists will bring in Leyline of the Void. For us with chalices, i THINK we should bring them in for x=0, but this obviously conflicts with our Pact plan. So I'm not really sure which one is the best honestly. I've had a few games already where I slammed a chalice for 0, only to durdle around and die to an EoT Cryptic bounce your chalice, untap living end with counterspells. With the amount of cycling that they have chalice certainly is not a hard lock.
TLDR prioritize putting a Griselbrand into the bin, then sculpt the perfect hand. They will have to make their move eventually. Also wurm tokens vs. living end is obviously awful.
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Basically, we want to present the juiciest option to get countered and I think Borbor is more juicy (cause it really looks desperate and indicates, that we do not have anything in hand).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
If it is GFab's list, it doesn't play tarfire. But, if it did, why would they counter a spell that doesn't save us?
Also, hopefully they activate relic so we can get rid of the ssg and shrink their goyfs.
what we cannot do
cast breach on our turn (pointless. we cant pact and win and we can lose our win con for no apparent reason)
shoal splicing ttb (we are super soft to permission. basically all eggs in one basket)
we can simplify this problem by stating that resolving a breach without using pact wins us the game. we can also reasonably state that surviving to next turn alive wins us the match with our pact (unless he plays a blocker. then we have a problem)
so i think we should start anythimg we do by casting shoal.in theory gaining 11 to 17 buys us an extra turn, but any number of factors can ruin that (burn, creature). and i agree pitching borby looks weaker.
the last question is whether to main phase shoal or on their upkeep. if we dont have pact i think shoaling on their upkeep is superior. if countered, we can resolve breach and likely win from there. if it resolves, take the hit and hope breach plus pact wins.
as it stands i dont think potrntially constricting their blue mana has much benefit, whereas if they counter our mainphase shoal we will be in a commanding position. also resolving breach on their turn may not be a win if they have nonsense like vapor snag or echoing truths
i think shoal pitch borb to lead off your main phase is the play
as played, i played the worst way possible and got rewarded :p. i upkeep shoal pitch borb splice ttb my wurm, which got vapor snagged?!?! i breached on my turn after he failed to find a second blue+permission and i won
1 Looting (or discard outlet)
1 Goryo's vengeance
2 fast mana sources (one of them being able to cast the Looting/1 mana discard outlet)
1 Griselbrand
1 Black producing land
The chance on a turn 2 kill is roughly 20% and this requires even more stuff, so nope, not really feasible. Furthermore, it would make the deck overall way worse, cause you are playing more garbage (Chancellor is crappy, same is true for Manamorphose).
Hence, the "dream" of a turn 1 kill is not worth it.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
7-2 on Day 1, 2-4 on Day 2 (mostly due to bad play)
You can find all my thoughts of the deck earlier on these threads.
Link to cubetutor:
http://cubetutor.com/cubeblog/10113
Would love to hear about your matches and your list for sure..!
I've been fiddling with the deck for the last week or so and I've noticed that I've been boarding out Borborygmos almost every single match up to the point where I ask whether his two MB slots could be used for something more proactive; in this case MB Blood Moons as they seem to be positioned great against most of the meta.
I realize that B.B. is used to win out combat lock and sometimes used as a Shoal fodder, however, what are your thoughts?
EDIT: Furthermore, I don't typically use Manamorphose in many of my matches, unless I've screwed up 'going off', is it cuttable?
Blood Moon is fine this this meta, but IMO we are a combo deck first and foremost and we need to maximize our G1 win percentage. To me a card that does not contribute to our g1 plan A has no place in the main deck.
If you do not want to play with Borborygmos, I think you should be playing the Grixis/BR goryo's deck and swap out wurms for emrakuls and the shoal package for cantrips, IMO.
Lastly, Manamorphose at worst replaces itself, and at best enables instant speed kills when resource constrained by allowing you to make black mana from just SSGs and rituals.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
This was a particularly frustrating spot for me. A lot of moving pieces here. I breached in a wurm while he was tapped out. From the previous play pattern, I suspected, but was not sure, that he had a path from the beginning. I know for a fact that he just drew a path from his Courser. So his hand is a path+a suspected path.
Ignore the looting for a second. You start the turn with 4 lands in play, Vengeance/Looting/Hug in hand. Is my move as clear cut as it seems? What would you do?!
Ongoing Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Vryn Wingmare incorrectly add to the cost to use splice onto Arcane abilities. Cardset (Commander, Legacy, Modern)
That's terrible.
Just out of curiousity, have you played against the new Mono Blue Living End list yet? It seems solid for us, but probably close to 50/50 if they get too much countermagic online.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)There is a few key angles we need to consider. I haven't played too many matchups to fully understand the ins and outs of the matchup, but I have surmised the following:
1) If you put a Griselbrand into the graveyard, they realistically must a) Tolaria west for their 1-of-Bojuka Bog before they go off (or draw the Bog, so 5 outs) or b) have enough lands to start casting Curators or c) build up enough enough As Foretold counters to cast those dorks for free
2) The game gets infinitely harder when they can get a fast As Foretold going. Mana no longer becomes a bottleneck for them. Together with Ancestral Visions they'll overwhelm us with too many counterspells before long.
3) Post board some lists will bring in Leyline of the Void. For us with chalices, i THINK we should bring them in for x=0, but this obviously conflicts with our Pact plan. So I'm not really sure which one is the best honestly. I've had a few games already where I slammed a chalice for 0, only to durdle around and die to an EoT Cryptic bounce your chalice, untap living end with counterspells. With the amount of cycling that they have chalice certainly is not a hard lock.
TLDR prioritize putting a Griselbrand into the bin, then sculpt the perfect hand. They will have to make their move eventually. Also wurm tokens vs. living end is obviously awful.