Looks like the same deck we are playing but 100% committed to graveyard play.
I've played against it once and it poorly scoops to RIP.
Other than Through the Breach how is the standard decklist any less graveyard dependent?
Well you have 2 combo spells and one of them is TTB. I would say exactly 50% less.
Agreed. Some opponents think that graveyard hate will be enough to sit on and win easily against Grishoalbrand when in reality, it just bought 2 turns (by the time you Breach, you usually have a Splice, Desperate Ritual, or Simian Spirit Guide to turn 3-4 it).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
It is basically a variant of the old BRu All in Version. It plays neither Shoal nor things like Fury/Soul Spike but rather wants to maximise on the potential cheat into play effects.
Makes the deck a little bit more stable but way worse for closing out the game basically (you need close to always 2 2 card combos to get there).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
2 Desperate Ritual
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Nourishing Shoal
4 Swamp
2 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Temple of Malice
Sideboard
3 Blood Moon
2 Collective Brutality
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Sudden Shock
2 Shatterstorm
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Pact of Negation
Just looking at the deck, I have a few questions:
1) Why only 2 Manamorphose? I know it's often call the "worst card in the deck", but how is a free mana-fixing cantrip bad? I'm coming from playing Storm and Suicide Bloo where the card is AMAZING, so I am definitely biased. But being able to play turn 2 Manamorphose into Whisper/Cathartic seems better than not having Manamorphose turn 2...
2) How good is Desperate Ritual? Could I replace 1 with 1 Manamorphose?
3) I like the idea of maindeck Collective Brutality, but is it worth it at the expense of Night's Whisper?
4) Is 19 land the right number? Could I shave 1 for another Manamorphose?
5) I wish Worldspine was legendary so Vengeance could hit it and we would not need Borborygmos as much...
Basically, here's what I'm asking about:
-1 Desperate Ritual
-1 Land
+2 Manamorphose
ad 1) Manamorphose is just garbage. The only reason, why you want to run that card is to filter red mana into black to have a Goryo's Borbor line, when you do not have an untapped land (that is the only reason, why I'm still running one copy). This is not Storm, where it is both a Ritual as a card draw nor Suicide Bloo, where it pumps your team for free (+ a free cantrip).
ad 2) No, I would even tend to play 3 Desperate Rituals (third one would be the last Manamorphose btw) currently, since it allows more possible power plays on turn 2, especially post board (Blood Moon, Shatter Storm on turn 3,...)
ad 3) I'm running 3 Collective Brutality for example, since I value the interaction a little bit higher than the potential addition in speed. However, I also run only 2 Hugs, since I do not like that card so much. In general, you want at least 10 cantrips (which your list does), if you are playing than Brutality over Night's Whisper or Hugs is a pure metagame choice (I have way to much Hatebears in my area, hence I really need and want them).
ad 4) Yes, it is the right number and no, do not cut additional lands. It both makes TTB worse (hitting 4 lands with only 18 lands from which are 4-6 fetchlands is nigh impossible in a somewhat reasonable time) as Borbor and SB cards (Quicksilver Amulet e.g.)
ad 5) Nothing we can do here, but Borbor is strictly better than Wurm, cause he allows us to win at instant speed.
Regarding the suggestions, I personally would say nope, since it makes the deck worse by a far margin.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
ad 1) Manamorphose is just garbage. The only reason, why you want to run that card is to filter red mana into black to have a Goryo's Borbor line, when you do not have an untapped land (that is the only reason, why I'm still running one copy). This is not Storm, where it is both a Ritual as a card draw nor Suicide Bloo, where it pumps your team for free (+ a free cantrip).
ad 2) No, I would even tend to play 3 Desperate Rituals (third one would be the last Manamorphose btw) currently, since it allows more possible power plays on turn 2, especially post board (Blood Moon, Shatter Storm on turn 3,...)
ad 3) I'm running 3 Collective Brutality for example, since I value the interaction a little bit higher than the potential addition in speed. However, I also run only 2 Hugs, since I do not like that card so much. In general, you want at least 10 cantrips (which your list does), if you are playing than Brutality over Night's Whisper or Hugs is a pure metagame choice (I have way to much Hatebears in my area, hence I really need and want them).
ad 4) Yes, it is the right number and no, do not cut additional lands. It both makes TTB worse (hitting 4 lands with only 18 lands from which are 4-6 fetchlands is nigh impossible in a somewhat reasonable time) as Borbor and SB cards (Quicksilver Amulet e.g.)
ad 5) Nothing we can do here, but Borbor is strictly better than Wurm, cause he allows us to win at instant speed.
Regarding the suggestions, I personally would say nope, since it makes the deck worse by a far margin.
Greetings,
Kathal
Thanks for the thorough response!
I agree that Cathartic seems mediocre. Yes, you get to discard, but it's card-neutral compared to card advantage in Whisper. And it's a 3:1 if they have Spell Pierce or Snare. Whisper and Brutality seem like better cards.
Without having played the deck at all, my thoughts are just theory. How is a free cantrip bad? Worst-case, if you ever have 1 in hand that you don't want, just cycle it, make RB, and then cast whatever card you draw in its place. Yes, it's not as great as it is in Storm or Bloo, but the goal of the deck is to find the combo pieces. Having a card that makes your deck 56 cards (without draining your life like Probe or Street Wraith or making you wait a turn like Bauble) while providing a LITTLE utility seems worth it.
What do you cut to fit in 3 Brutality? The deck seems incredibly tight...
I'm thinking:
-2 Cathartic
+2 Night's Whisper (can also function as discard on the draw when you play it turn 2 and hit 8 cards)
-1 _____ (preferably not Manamorphose because I just love it too much to cut without playing it)
+1 Collective Brutality
On a side note, it would be interesting to try a "52-card" version with 4 Manamorphose and 4 Bauble. Yes, Bauble doesn't draw a card immediately, but you can combo on your opponent's turn just about as easily as you can on your turn. I don't have any idea what you would cut to fit these cards in. And it would probably be a worse version of the deck. But it's something I will probably try out if I get to play it at FNM a few times.
Btw, just some history on Morphose. When I started to play the deck and developed it further, 4 Morphose was in the "deck core", now I'm either playing none or one. Also, Morphose is not a free cantrip at all. It can be a free cantrip, if you have two spare mana which you can use otherwise too. It does nothing, when you keep those one land Temple hands (which I keep quite often) or when you only have fast mana as mana sources (SSG and/or Rituals). It also cuts into the tight space of the deck, which is also a huge problem.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Agreed with Kathal. Manamorphose has its uses, but it is very lackluster in the deck. I usually keep 1 in the list, but I've also board it out in more than a few matches. I can only think of one or two times where it was the missing piece to close out the game.
I've been thoroughly impressed with the list that Dan Ward played at regionals. Expertise let's you do all sorts of messed up things, besides the obvious interaction with breaking/entering.
I've been thoroughly impressed with the list that Dan Ward played at regionals. Expertise let's you do all sorts of messed up things, besides the obvious interaction with breaking/entering.
Me too. Just trying to learn how to sideboard with it.Mainly what to cut in certain matchups
Can someone please explain why people are packing lab maniac nowadays? If have the ability to draw your whole deck, 3 mana and a manamorphose available, isn't borborygmos enough in the exact same scenarios?
Can someone please explain why people are packing lab maniac nowadays? If have the ability to draw your whole deck, 3 mana and a manamorphose available, isn't borborygmos enough in the exact same scenarios?
Lab Maniac in the SB is for decks like Abzan Company that are capable of infinite life (or more life than we have lands to toss at them). I'm sure there are some other niche match ups where Lab Maniac can be a helpful alternative win-con, but that is the main reason (and isn't an auto-include in the SB either).
Thoughts?? I'm going to test it out ::) looks like gas
I've played against it once and it poorly scoops to RIP.
Other than Through the Breach how is the standard decklist any less graveyard dependent?
Well you have 2 combo spells and one of them is TTB. I would say exactly 50% less.
Agreed. Some opponents think that graveyard hate will be enough to sit on and win easily against Grishoalbrand when in reality, it just bought 2 turns (by the time you Breach, you usually have a Splice, Desperate Ritual, or Simian Spirit Guide to turn 3-4 it).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)The decklist he linked plays 4 TTB.
Makes the deck a little bit more stable but way worse for closing out the game basically (you need close to always 2 2 card combos to get there).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Worldspine Wurm
2 Borborygmos Enraged
4 Griselbrand
4 Faithless Looting
2 Night's Whisper
4 Cathartic Reunion
2 Manamorphose
1 Collective Brutality
2 Desperate Ritual
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Nourishing Shoal
4 Swamp
2 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Temple of Malice
Sideboard
3 Blood Moon
2 Collective Brutality
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Sudden Shock
2 Shatterstorm
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Pact of Negation
Just looking at the deck, I have a few questions:
1) Why only 2 Manamorphose? I know it's often call the "worst card in the deck", but how is a free mana-fixing cantrip bad? I'm coming from playing Storm and Suicide Bloo where the card is AMAZING, so I am definitely biased. But being able to play turn 2 Manamorphose into Whisper/Cathartic seems better than not having Manamorphose turn 2...
2) How good is Desperate Ritual? Could I replace 1 with 1 Manamorphose?
3) I like the idea of maindeck Collective Brutality, but is it worth it at the expense of Night's Whisper?
4) Is 19 land the right number? Could I shave 1 for another Manamorphose?
5) I wish Worldspine was legendary so Vengeance could hit it and we would not need Borborygmos as much...
Basically, here's what I'm asking about:
-1 Desperate Ritual
-1 Land
+2 Manamorphose
Thoughts?
ad 2) No, I would even tend to play 3 Desperate Rituals (third one would be the last Manamorphose btw) currently, since it allows more possible power plays on turn 2, especially post board (Blood Moon, Shatter Storm on turn 3,...)
ad 3) I'm running 3 Collective Brutality for example, since I value the interaction a little bit higher than the potential addition in speed. However, I also run only 2 Hugs, since I do not like that card so much. In general, you want at least 10 cantrips (which your list does), if you are playing than Brutality over Night's Whisper or Hugs is a pure metagame choice (I have way to much Hatebears in my area, hence I really need and want them).
ad 4) Yes, it is the right number and no, do not cut additional lands. It both makes TTB worse (hitting 4 lands with only 18 lands from which are 4-6 fetchlands is nigh impossible in a somewhat reasonable time) as Borbor and SB cards (Quicksilver Amulet e.g.)
ad 5) Nothing we can do here, but Borbor is strictly better than Wurm, cause he allows us to win at instant speed.
Regarding the suggestions, I personally would say nope, since it makes the deck worse by a far margin.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Thanks for the thorough response!
I agree that Cathartic seems mediocre. Yes, you get to discard, but it's card-neutral compared to card advantage in Whisper. And it's a 3:1 if they have Spell Pierce or Snare. Whisper and Brutality seem like better cards.
Without having played the deck at all, my thoughts are just theory. How is a free cantrip bad? Worst-case, if you ever have 1 in hand that you don't want, just cycle it, make RB, and then cast whatever card you draw in its place. Yes, it's not as great as it is in Storm or Bloo, but the goal of the deck is to find the combo pieces. Having a card that makes your deck 56 cards (without draining your life like Probe or Street Wraith or making you wait a turn like Bauble) while providing a LITTLE utility seems worth it.
What do you cut to fit in 3 Brutality? The deck seems incredibly tight...
I'm thinking:
-2 Cathartic
+2 Night's Whisper (can also function as discard on the draw when you play it turn 2 and hit 8 cards)
-1 _____ (preferably not Manamorphose because I just love it too much to cut without playing it)
+1 Collective Brutality
On a side note, it would be interesting to try a "52-card" version with 4 Manamorphose and 4 Bauble. Yes, Bauble doesn't draw a card immediately, but you can combo on your opponent's turn just about as easily as you can on your turn. I don't have any idea what you would cut to fit these cards in. And it would probably be a worse version of the deck. But it's something I will probably try out if I get to play it at FNM a few times.
Btw, just some history on Morphose. When I started to play the deck and developed it further, 4 Morphose was in the "deck core", now I'm either playing none or one. Also, Morphose is not a free cantrip at all. It can be a free cantrip, if you have two spare mana which you can use otherwise too. It does nothing, when you keep those one land Temple hands (which I keep quite often) or when you only have fast mana as mana sources (SSG and/or Rituals). It also cuts into the tight space of the deck, which is also a huge problem.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Post side opponents will keep all the Path alike spells for your Wurm and Grisel so it's quite effective threat.
Me too. Just trying to learn how to sideboard with it.Mainly what to cut in certain matchups
Lab Maniac in the SB is for decks like Abzan Company that are capable of infinite life (or more life than we have lands to toss at them). I'm sure there are some other niche match ups where Lab Maniac can be a helpful alternative win-con, but that is the main reason (and isn't an auto-include in the SB either).