Christopher Calhoun just won the SCG Richmond Classic with the B/R Grishoalbrand via Bob Huang's latest main deck B/R build.
interesting that he has a Laboratory Maniac on his SB..seems like a nice plan B.for me it's a little sketchy with it's mana base basically your chance to put it into play is that 1 manamorphose or power it out via TTB,still lab maniac is prone to a lot of removal.it's a lil too fancy for me to pull off..I can see the surprise value though.
other than that looks like the deck is finally ready to bust outta it's shell(Get Banned) with today's meta.
Hasn't this deck performed well in the past? Why get bannned now?
Christopher Calhoun just won the SCG Richmond Classic with the B/R Grishoalbrand via Bob Huang's latest main deck B/R build.
interesting that he has a Laboratory Maniac on his SB..seems like a nice plan B.for me it's a little sketchy with it's mana base basically your chance to put it into play is that 1 manamorphose or power it out via TTB,still lab maniac is prone to a lot of removal.it's a lil too fancy for me to pull off..I can see the surprise value though.
other than that looks like the deck is finally ready to bust outta it's shell(Get Banned) with today's meta.
Hasn't this deck performed well in the past? Why get bannned now?
not really..Bob Huang and Jerome Bastogne are the only players i can think of that took the Deck to the top at a Major Tourney..Grishoalbrand was always a prime target for banning because it's a non-interactive deck and frequently cheats the turn 4 no win rule,2 things wizards
does not want in a healthy gaming envoirment..i remember back in 2015 when the shoal version first came out a lot of people was saying it was going to be banned(instead amulet bloom got the axe) but i guess wizards never bothered due to the fact that it has consistency issues and the fact that a not a lot of players played with it for reasons:
1.like i said Consistency.
2.Fear of the Deck being Banned.
3.It's a really complicated Combo Deck.
now is the time where i think the meta game is slow due to the popularity of urzatron decks,Scapeshift/Breach decks,Eldrazi..etc.(matchups that are favorable to us.) and the banning of Gitaxian probe which i think slowed down Infect,Death shadow,U/R Prowess and affinity is really not popular nowadays(Decks that we Matched Poorly)..makes Grishoalbrand really good now and if it's good it's gonna put up numbers in tourney's and once that happens it gonna find itself in Wizards radar and when it does..say good bye to Griseldaddy,Borbor & W-Spine..although if Wizard is gonna Ban anything from the deck it's gonna be either Goryo's Vengeance(Too good for it's CC) or Nourishing Shoal(Enabler & free to cast)
[quote from="skuukzky78 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/599726-grishoalbrand-griselbrand-reanimator?comment=1290"]Christopher Calhoun just won the SCG Richmond Classic with the B/R Grishoalbrand via Bob Huang's latest main deck B/R build.
interesting that he has a Laboratory Maniac on his SB..seems like a nice plan B.for me it's a little sketchy with it's mana base basically your chance to put it into play is that 1 manamorphose or power it out via TTB,still lab maniac is prone to a lot of removal.it's a lil too fancy for me to pull off..I can see the surprise value though.
other than that looks like the deck is finally ready to bust outta it's shell(Get Banned) with today's meta.
Hasn't this deck performed well in the past? Why get bannned now?
not really..Bob Huang and Jerome Bastogne are the only players i can think of that took the Deck to the top at a Major Tourney..Grishoalbrand was always a prime target for banning because it's a non-interactive deck and frequently cheats the turn 4 no win rule,2 things wizards
does not want in a healthy gaming envoirment..i remember back in 2015 when the shoal version first came out a lot of people was saying it was going to be banned(instead amulet bloom got the axe) but i guess wizards never bothered due to the fact that it has consistency issues and the fact that a not a lot of players played with it for reasons:
1.like i said Consistency.
2.Fear of the Deck being Banned.
3.It's a really complicated Combo Deck.
now is the time where i think the meta game is slow due to the popularity of urzatron decks,Scapeshift/Breach decks,Eldrazi..etc.(matchups that are favorable to us.) and the banning of Gitaxian probe which i think slowed down Infect,Death shadow,U/R Prowess and affinity is really not popular nowadays(Decks that we Matched Poorly)..makes Grishoalbrand really good now and if it's good it's gonna put up numbers in tourney's and once that happens it gonna find itself in Wizards radar and when it does..say good bye to Griseldaddy,Borbor & W-Spine..although if Wizard is gonna Ban anything from the deck it's gonna be either Goryo's Vengeace(Too good for it's CC) or Nourshing Shoal(Enabler & free to cast)[/quote
Damn...I really hope not. This was gonna be a deck I was gonna buy for my birthday. Maybe I'll wait till after the next ban announcement
I wouldn't really worry about a ban at the moment. The deck is going to need to become T1 before WotC would take any action (assuming it was needed). MTGO results and a SCG Classic are not enough for that to happen. The meta % according to MTGGoldfish is 1.72% and it doesn't seem to be putting up any more 5-0 results than it used to. Now if we get several copies into the Top 8 of a GP by pilots not named Bob, it might be time to be more concerned.
The deck has always been powerful with a touch of inconsistency which is its saving grace. Most "spike" minded people wouldn't pick up the deck because of that (helping to keep the meta % down).
I wouldn't really worry about a ban at the moment. The deck is going to need to become T1 before WotC would take any action (assuming it was needed). MTGO results and a SCG Classic are not enough for that to happen. The meta % according to MTGGoldfish is 1.72% and it doesn't seem to be putting up any more 5-0 results than it used to. Now if we get several copies into the Top 8 of a GP by pilots not named Bob, it might be time to be more concerned.
The deck has always been powerful with a touch of inconsistency which is its saving grace. Most "spike" minded people wouldn't pick up the deck because of that (helping to keep the meta % down).
hope you're right..cause i've been investing money and time with the deck for almost a year now.shame if wizards decides to drop the ban hammer..moving on...
you're thoughts on the Laboratory Maniac on the SB? is it worth a slot? or is the alternative to mill yourself too ambitious to pull off?(specially on a B/R mana base)
Played with Lab Man when Abzan CoCo was a thing. It is basically a wincon you board in vs them, to have an out vs the Infinite life combo. Also, since the deck is rather slowly regarding the aggro components (the best they can do is attack with 4 power at turn 3) you can reliable draw the whole library and thus enabling the Lab Man with ease.
Regarding a potential ban, it really depends what they want. If they just want to slow the deck down, than they will ban Shoal. If they want to kill the deck, they will ban Griselband. Since the first scenario is way more likely than the second one, it would still allow us to play the classic or the PT version. Though, I would switch over to the Ooze version than ^^
Edit says: And the probably go to ban would be SSG, since Wizards hates fast mana and it would lead to basically the same thing as I mentioned above.
Exactly. Lab maniac is good SB tech against coco since we can't beat infinite life.
As for a ban, hopefully WotC would recognize shoal being the key card that allows you to win at instant speed and through interaction. The other versions can't abuse Griselbrand the same way. SSG would kill the shoal version most likely (you could still run the shoal package and just not win on the spot, but that doesn't seem very good) and would make the classic, PT OGW version, and off-shoots like BR control (Caleb Durward style) a lot worse as well. Those versions can run replacements like Pentad Prism though, so it wouldn't be a death blow for the entire archetype.
Either using Manamorphose or using Through the Breach. I don't think Lab maniac is necessary by any means, but if you expect a rise in abzan company (which had a second place showing the week prior at the SCG Columbus Classic), then it is perfectly serviceable. It is certainly better than trying to mill them out with Emrakul beats like I've attempted before
I understand some of you are nervous about a potential ban after the recent SCG win. Please remember that banlist talk should be kept in the State of the Meta thread. On here, focus on making the deck better or stronger. We don't want to distract conversation from the deck, and while being afraid of a ban is related to this deck, this isn't the place for that debate. Carry on ladies and gents! - CavalryWolfPack
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Either using Manamorphose or using Through the Breach. I don't think Lab maniac is necessary by any means, but if you expect a rise in abzan company (which had a second place showing the week prior at the SCG Columbus Classic), then it is perfectly serviceable. It is certainly better than trying to mill them out with Emrakul beats like I've attempted before
The other option, instead of Lab Man is Tainted Strike, which is also a win con vs Abzan CoCo and Ad Nauseam (even a better one, since they need to win right there or they would die to the Infect damage). However, it needs B mana and thus you really want to play 2 Morphose MD (or 1 in the Side to board in with the Strike) since you will often just cylce your Morphose in the early game if you have it in hand or pitch it to a Looting.
However, both are way better than trying to do some beats by Emrakul
I understand some of you are nervous about a potential ban after the recent SCG win. Please remember that banlist talk should be kept in the State of the Meta thread. On here, focus on making the deck better or stronger. We don't want to distract conversation from the deck, and while being afraid of a ban is related to this deck, this isn't the place for that debate. Carry on ladies and gents! - CavalryWolfPack
I mean, the question is very valid and most people who know how the deck works (and play it themself) do not read the State of Modern (or w/e it is called) thread, since it is normally just a big pile of *you know what I mean*. Hence, asking the question right here, where the actual players of the decks can read it + make a good argumentation on which card is a potential ban target is more useful for close to everyone but the Mod team cause of the Modern forum rules.
Sure, the discussion in this thread should be around the different Griselbanned versions but sadly, cause of that stupid ban mania in Modern, we also have to deal with things like this. However, as you said, the main focus should be about developing the deck and not the ban talks (for this, there is thread you mentioned).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Can someone please explain me the sideboard choices and what to board out for the cards that come in. I feel like the list is so damn tight, i dont want anything to get taken out of the board.
I played this list on Sunday of GP San Jose and can tell you it's very solid. The games I lost I felt were primarily due to variance and I was able to get this deck to go off every game where I wasn't TS/Inquisitioned on t1 or countered multiple times. I played Grixis Goryo's(ala Sharfman) the day before and Grixis Grishoalbrand on Friday. This list felt the best against the most matchups. In regards to sideboard:
2 Blood Moon
This is for BGx decks while you're on the play and Tron. Typically you're taking out cards like Cathartic reunion because they get significantly worse to discard.
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Blue/Control decks. Take out a Temple, hope you draw this.
3 Collective Brutality
Good against combo, primarily infect but also Company decks as well. I'd -1 TTB and -2 Reunions here.
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
White decks and Burn HATE this guy. Take out 1 Borborygmos and remember not to exile him to Shoal. If they have Path this is great. Beware of D-Palm though.
2 Engineered Explosives
Decks with heavy artifact hate like Cage, Relic and Bridge. Also very potent against Lantern and elves. I brought this in against 1 Bant edlrazi player that had boarded 14 pieces of hate against me, almost all 1 drops.
3 Pact of Negation
Blue decks and burn decks with multiples of Skullcrack and Atarkas Command. Against burn, three Night's whispers come out. For blue decks without bolt I opt for the Reunions.
1 Pyroclasm
Creature decks like abzan, and stompy. Affinity and creature heavy burn too. This spell just doesn't hit as much stuff as it used to, but it's still great at clearing the board of those pesky x/1 and x/2 creatures that are prevalent in the format. Again, a Reunion or Whisper can be a good out for this card depending on how threatening to your life total the opposing deck is.
2 Vandalblast
Affinity, Lantern, Thopstersword and Tezzeret. Anything with a lot of artifacts gets this in and reunion and/or Whispers out depending on the matchup.
Personally, I like Thoughtseize and Leyline of Sanctity in my Sb and 1 or 2 more Blood Moon. But I'd be happy running this SB as well. When taking cards out consider Night's Whisper and Cathartic Reunion while asking the question "Are they attacking my life total or my resources?" If it's the former opt for the Night's whisper and the latter the Cathartic reunion, generally.
The new Cheeri0s deck seems like it could be a problem. I've played five games against it online and was literally dead on turn 2 in three of them. Even if those were a bit lucky I think they are legitimately faster than us. Being the second fastest non-interactive combo deck in a match is a bad place to be.
I haven't played the match up yet, but I'm not sure I'd raise the alarm. They don't seem to be able to interact with us either, but we can sideboard against it if we need to. Bolt would be fine. Fatal Push is another. Remember, in general our SB plan is broken up into 3 sections: 1. Anti BGx 2. Anti Control 3. Infect / Affinity. I'm not convinced we can't handle the deck.
If the deck becomes more popular adjust the SB accordingly.
Edit: I haven't played against it since the addition of Sram. Before it was a non-issue IMO.
It got a lot more stable and the turn 3 kills are the norm. They also switched from the Glimmervoid manabase over to a fetch/shock one, which does help us regarding TTB and Wurm.
Otherwise, Surgical is a good card vs them and of course Bolt or similar removal spells. It is less resistant than pre ban Infect, since without Grapeshots it relies on 2/2 + Bonesaw beatdown, which is more than mediocre.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
It also plays 4 Leyline Of Sanctity in the sideboard. I am certain it will be a negative matchup.
Leyline isn't that great against us. Yes it takes away the Borborygmos - throw lands at your opponent kill, but I have yet to lose a match to my opponent having a leyline of sanctity out. TTB Wurm, Emrakul, or Lab Maniac (if you have it in your SB) get around it fine.
Leyline generally buys a turn against us. When we're already the slow ones in the matchup a one turn delay could be a real problem.
To be honest though I never saw leyline out of the Cheeri0s sideboard. I don't think my opponents felt like they needed it. Our basic problem is that they run eight card draw guys plus two rebuys in Noxious Revival. In my sideboard I have been running two IoK and one lightning axe that can deal with them promptly, and two pyroclasms that are mediocre at best (useless against Puresteel since it's inevitably a 2/5 by the time it's my turn). The numbers are in their favor.
I guess we could run Lost Legacy to pick off Grapeshot but it feels very narrow and I'm honestly not sure we reliably get to 1BB before they get the kill done. Our own leyline isn't going to do anything since they have easy access to echoing truth and draw their whole deck when they go off.
Leyline generally buys a turn against us. When we're already the slow ones in the matchup a one turn delay could be a real problem.
To be honest though I never saw leyline out of the Cheeri0s sideboard. I don't think my opponents felt like they needed it. Our basic problem is that they run eight card draw guys plus two rebuys in Noxious Revival. In my sideboard I have been running two IoK and one lightning axe that can deal with them promptly, and two pyroclasms that are mediocre at best (useless against Puresteel since it's inevitably a 2/5 by the time it's my turn). The numbers are in their favor.
I guess we could run Lost Legacy to pick off Grapeshot but it feels very narrow and I'm honestly not sure we reliably get to 1BB before they get the kill done. Our own leyline isn't going to do anything since they have easy access to echoing truth and draw their whole deck when they go off.
If the deck becomes more prominent, then I'd argue for targeted removal in the SB. When DSZ was on the rise I started running Terminate and EE since it cleanly answered the threat. Fatal Push is the better option now, but the idea is the same. Again I'm not saying that the match isn't a race, but I am not convinced at this time that it impacts us much. I haven't seen a whole lot of results from it on MTGO, but I also understand there is a lot of buzz around it right now as well.
Can I get some sideboard advice for my local meta? The past 3 months are in the chart below(I am the Griselbrand player%). I am running the new BR Grishoalbrand with 4 Cathartic Reunion. What would you have for SB if this was your meta?
I played at the San Diego, CA SCG REgionals at At Ease Games. 230 something odd people, 9 rounds.
Round 1 vs. GW Tron. I mulligan 2 no land hands to 5. He gets Tron on turn 3 and Karn too. He exiles some redundant cards from my hand. I have 3 land, Simian Spirit Guide, and Through the Breach/Worldspine Wurm. I miss the land, SSG, Desperate Ritual, or Nourishing Shoal to splice, and then lose a few turns later. He played Oblivion Stone next turn anyway, so I would have had to figure out how to do the rest of the damage. In the next game, I go off on turn 3 with Vengeance on Griselbrand, as I was only missing 1 piece of the puzzle in my opener and had Looting and Whisper. No mulls that game. In the last game, I keep a hand that does turn 4 Worldspine Wurm, hoping to draw an accelerant. I do on turn 3 and turn 3 the Wurm. He does Path to Exile on 1 the next turn with a Star, but the remaining 2 swing past a lonely Spellskite to win. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Cheerios. Yay! I get to play against an even quicker deck. Yay! I get to lose the die roll. Yay! I get to play a player who has had tremendous luck against me in the past, including the only person to turn 3 me with Ad Nauseam (twice). Yay! I mulligan to 6, having no land. He tries to go off on turn 2, misses, but draws (or had) Retract the following turn to win. I win the next game on turn 3. I go for Through the Breach/Worldspine Wurm while he was at 15, had 2 mana open, and hadn't played much. He does Path to Exile and I Pact of Negation it. In the last game, I had 0 land in my opener again. This was my hand - 2 Inquisition of Kozilek, 2 Faithless Looting, Goryo's Vengeance, Griselbrand, and Manamorphose. I felt that this is the best I can do vs. a deck that kills me turns 2 or 3 on the play. NINE turns later after beating me down with 2 creatures (presumably had multiple Sram in hand, it being a legend) to 12, he finds Grapeshot. I had discarded 8 cards and had 0 lands in play. 1-2.
Round 3 vs. Grixis Delver. I played against this girl once before. I knew what she was on. In the first game, she taps out on turn 2. I Goryo's Vengeance and combo out. In the next game, an awkward hand allowed her to put me near 10 after a Delver flip. Me comboing out was tougher, as I had less life and I drew a really weird 14. The next game was similar. I died to my own Pact trigger next turn as I failed to find Shoal, 2 more land, or something else and died. 1-2.
Round 4 vs. UR Storm. After some draws by me, he Stormed off turn 4 or 5 with Empty the Warrens and Grapeshot both. In the next game, I go off pretty early and he can't beat Wurm tokens. I was so scared when he tapped 2, thinking Echoing Truth, but it was Desperate Ravings and he scooped afterward. In the last game, I failed to find a kill condition in my 21 draws, so I put myself high in life, but without a win-con left, except a hard cast Griselbrand and 1 Simian Spirit Guide. I had 15 cards left. It got down to 4 cards when I drew the Simian Spirit Guide, but the clock would put him at 1 before I die to not being able to draw a card. I draw Griselbrand and hard cast it on the 2nd to last turn and swing for the game. Crazy game, but I made some discard mistakes. 2-1.
Round 5 vs. Enchantress. Here is his report from his perspective. He did it better, so...
"Round 5 - Grishoal Brand (player *****).
For some reason, what happened in this match is drawing a blank, but I do remember landing an early Herald of the Pantheon into Ghostly Prison in Game 1 after he Spliced a Through the Breach onto a Nourishing Shoal, getting out a Worldspine Wurm that he was wasn't able to attack with, but got the 3 tokens out of it that he sat on for a while until I got the hard lock on him and he scooped and we moved to Game 2. Game 2, his deck did exactly as it was supposed to do and went off on Turn 2 with Goryo's Vengence-ing back a Giselbrand, drawing into a more lifegain with Nourishing Shoal/Worldspine Wurm, then eventually Splicing a Through the Breach onto a second one, putting in another Worldspine Wurm. Was cool to watch it go off, as I don't get to see it often. Game 3, I start out with a Leyline in play and an early Ghostly Prison, he simply can't fight through it. I can't remember if I win off of Kessig or angel beats, but it was one of the two.
Match result - 3-2." 1-2 for me.
Round 6 vs. Mono Green Infect. He plays the same thing both games after getting the play. Turn 1 Cathedral of War. Turn 2 1/1 artifact infecter, (1 Plague Myr and 1 Ichorclaw Myr), and then turn 3 Might of Old Krosa, Giant Growth, and Mutagenic Growth and double Might of Old Krosa in the game 2. I lost in 2 minutes right after something happened in my personal life that I had on my phone. So I wasn't really in the right mind frame anyway. 0-2.
Round 7 vs. Junk. Basically he does and average of 2-3 discard spells per game, each time taking something dehabilitating to him. Three times it was the win-con and twice it was Blood Moon with 0 basics in play for him. He showed me the Path to Exile in his hand when he left Overgrown Tomb untapped instead of Godless Shrine to flash back Lingering Souls. The mistake was the only reason I went for it. 1-2.
Round 8 vs. Esper Control. I comboed him on turn 3 with Through the Breach from my opener into Worldspine Wurm, but I drew Griselbrand and won instead. In the next game, he counters my Goryo's Vengeance at EoT, but I have another one for my turn and win. He seems really surprised that I had done so poorly so far. I told him my other draws and mulligans were different. 2-0.
Round 9 vs. Mono Blue Tron. I held off on some spells because I tried to play around his countermagic. On turn 2, I passed and did Manamorphose at the end of his turn. He did Condescend, allowing me to Nigh's Whisper the next turn and get ahead on cards. I end up splicing EoT into my turn Goryo's Vengeance to win the game with a Worldspine Wurm and Griselbrand. This was after a Thought-Knot Seer and I had scried Through the Breach to the top. In the next game, he turn 4 Thought-Knot Seer'ed me, but took the wrong card so I had 2 copies of Goryo's Vengeance. One was countered, but the other resolved and killed him. He was very inexperienced playing against my deck. 2-0.
I am still tired from 10 hours of Magic and less than 30 minutes of eating that day, so I will be back for more details. The Cliffnotes are that I got smashed, losing to many players who probably barely began playing Magic and just didn't know how to play against Grishoalbrand in general. 4-5 on the day.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
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Hasn't this deck performed well in the past? Why get bannned now?
not really..Bob Huang and Jerome Bastogne are the only players i can think of that took the Deck to the top at a Major Tourney..Grishoalbrand was always a prime target for banning because it's a non-interactive deck and frequently cheats the turn 4 no win rule,2 things wizards
does not want in a healthy gaming envoirment..i remember back in 2015 when the shoal version first came out a lot of people was saying it was going to be banned(instead amulet bloom got the axe) but i guess wizards never bothered due to the fact that it has consistency issues and the fact that a not a lot of players played with it for reasons:
1.like i said Consistency.
2.Fear of the Deck being Banned.
3.It's a really complicated Combo Deck.
now is the time where i think the meta game is slow due to the popularity of urzatron decks,Scapeshift/Breach decks,Eldrazi..etc.(matchups that are favorable to us.) and the banning of Gitaxian probe which i think slowed down Infect,Death shadow,U/R Prowess and affinity is really not popular nowadays(Decks that we Matched Poorly)..makes Grishoalbrand really good now and if it's good it's gonna put up numbers in tourney's and once that happens it gonna find itself in Wizards radar and when it does..say good bye to Griseldaddy,Borbor & W-Spine..although if Wizard is gonna Ban anything from the deck it's gonna be either Goryo's Vengeance(Too good for it's CC) or Nourishing Shoal(Enabler & free to cast)
not really..Bob Huang and Jerome Bastogne are the only players i can think of that took the Deck to the top at a Major Tourney..Grishoalbrand was always a prime target for banning because it's a non-interactive deck and frequently cheats the turn 4 no win rule,2 things wizards
does not want in a healthy gaming envoirment..i remember back in 2015 when the shoal version first came out a lot of people was saying it was going to be banned(instead amulet bloom got the axe) but i guess wizards never bothered due to the fact that it has consistency issues and the fact that a not a lot of players played with it for reasons:
1.like i said Consistency.
2.Fear of the Deck being Banned.
3.It's a really complicated Combo Deck.
now is the time where i think the meta game is slow due to the popularity of urzatron decks,Scapeshift/Breach decks,Eldrazi..etc.(matchups that are favorable to us.) and the banning of Gitaxian probe which i think slowed down Infect,Death shadow,U/R Prowess and affinity is really not popular nowadays(Decks that we Matched Poorly)..makes Grishoalbrand really good now and if it's good it's gonna put up numbers in tourney's and once that happens it gonna find itself in Wizards radar and when it does..say good bye to Griseldaddy,Borbor & W-Spine..although if Wizard is gonna Ban anything from the deck it's gonna be either Goryo's Vengeace(Too good for it's CC) or Nourshing Shoal(Enabler & free to cast)[/quote
Damn...I really hope not. This was gonna be a deck I was gonna buy for my birthday. Maybe I'll wait till after the next ban announcement
The deck has always been powerful with a touch of inconsistency which is its saving grace. Most "spike" minded people wouldn't pick up the deck because of that (helping to keep the meta % down).
hope you're right..cause i've been investing money and time with the deck for almost a year now.shame if wizards decides to drop the ban hammer..moving on...
you're thoughts on the Laboratory Maniac on the SB? is it worth a slot? or is the alternative to mill yourself too ambitious to pull off?(specially on a B/R mana base)
Regarding a potential ban, it really depends what they want. If they just want to slow the deck down, than they will ban Shoal. If they want to kill the deck, they will ban Griselband. Since the first scenario is way more likely than the second one, it would still allow us to play the classic or the PT version. Though, I would switch over to the Ooze version than ^^
Edit says: And the probably go to ban would be SSG, since Wizards hates fast mana and it would lead to basically the same thing as I mentioned above.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
As for a ban, hopefully WotC would recognize shoal being the key card that allows you to win at instant speed and through interaction. The other versions can't abuse Griselbrand the same way. SSG would kill the shoal version most likely (you could still run the shoal package and just not win on the spot, but that doesn't seem very good) and would make the classic, PT OGW version, and off-shoots like BR control (Caleb Durward style) a lot worse as well. Those versions can run replacements like Pentad Prism though, so it wouldn't be a death blow for the entire archetype.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
Either using Manamorphose or using Through the Breach. I don't think Lab maniac is necessary by any means, but if you expect a rise in abzan company (which had a second place showing the week prior at the SCG Columbus Classic), then it is perfectly serviceable. It is certainly better than trying to mill them out with Emrakul beats like I've attempted before
The other option, instead of Lab Man is Tainted Strike, which is also a win con vs Abzan CoCo and Ad Nauseam (even a better one, since they need to win right there or they would die to the Infect damage). However, it needs B mana and thus you really want to play 2 Morphose MD (or 1 in the Side to board in with the Strike) since you will often just cylce your Morphose in the early game if you have it in hand or pitch it to a Looting.
However, both are way better than trying to do some beats by Emrakul
I mean, the question is very valid and most people who know how the deck works (and play it themself) do not read the State of Modern (or w/e it is called) thread, since it is normally just a big pile of *you know what I mean*. Hence, asking the question right here, where the actual players of the decks can read it + make a good argumentation on which card is a potential ban target is more useful for close to everyone but the Mod team cause of the Modern forum rules.
Sure, the discussion in this thread should be around the different Griselbanned versions but sadly, cause of that stupid ban mania in Modern, we also have to deal with things like this. However, as you said, the main focus should be about developing the deck and not the ban talks (for this, there is thread you mentioned).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I played this list on Sunday of GP San Jose and can tell you it's very solid. The games I lost I felt were primarily due to variance and I was able to get this deck to go off every game where I wasn't TS/Inquisitioned on t1 or countered multiple times. I played Grixis Goryo's(ala Sharfman) the day before and Grixis Grishoalbrand on Friday. This list felt the best against the most matchups. In regards to sideboard:
2 Blood Moon
This is for BGx decks while you're on the play and Tron. Typically you're taking out cards like Cathartic reunion because they get significantly worse to discard.
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Blue/Control decks. Take out a Temple, hope you draw this.
3 Collective Brutality
Good against combo, primarily infect but also Company decks as well. I'd -1 TTB and -2 Reunions here.
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
White decks and Burn HATE this guy. Take out 1 Borborygmos and remember not to exile him to Shoal. If they have Path this is great. Beware of D-Palm though.
2 Engineered Explosives
Decks with heavy artifact hate like Cage, Relic and Bridge. Also very potent against Lantern and elves. I brought this in against 1 Bant edlrazi player that had boarded 14 pieces of hate against me, almost all 1 drops.
3 Pact of Negation
Blue decks and burn decks with multiples of Skullcrack and Atarkas Command. Against burn, three Night's whispers come out. For blue decks without bolt I opt for the Reunions.
1 Pyroclasm
Creature decks like abzan, and stompy. Affinity and creature heavy burn too. This spell just doesn't hit as much stuff as it used to, but it's still great at clearing the board of those pesky x/1 and x/2 creatures that are prevalent in the format. Again, a Reunion or Whisper can be a good out for this card depending on how threatening to your life total the opposing deck is.
2 Vandalblast
Affinity, Lantern, Thopstersword and Tezzeret. Anything with a lot of artifacts gets this in and reunion and/or Whispers out depending on the matchup.
Personally, I like Thoughtseize and Leyline of Sanctity in my Sb and 1 or 2 more Blood Moon. But I'd be happy running this SB as well. When taking cards out consider Night's Whisper and Cathartic Reunion while asking the question "Are they attacking my life total or my resources?" If it's the former opt for the Night's whisper and the latter the Cathartic reunion, generally.
If the deck becomes more popular adjust the SB accordingly.
Edit: I haven't played against it since the addition of Sram. Before it was a non-issue IMO.
Otherwise, Surgical is a good card vs them and of course Bolt or similar removal spells. It is less resistant than pre ban Infect, since without Grapeshots it relies on 2/2 + Bonesaw beatdown, which is more than mediocre.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Leyline isn't that great against us. Yes it takes away the Borborygmos - throw lands at your opponent kill, but I have yet to lose a match to my opponent having a leyline of sanctity out. TTB Wurm, Emrakul, or Lab Maniac (if you have it in your SB) get around it fine.
To be honest though I never saw leyline out of the Cheeri0s sideboard. I don't think my opponents felt like they needed it. Our basic problem is that they run eight card draw guys plus two rebuys in Noxious Revival. In my sideboard I have been running two IoK and one lightning axe that can deal with them promptly, and two pyroclasms that are mediocre at best (useless against Puresteel since it's inevitably a 2/5 by the time it's my turn). The numbers are in their favor.
I guess we could run Lost Legacy to pick off Grapeshot but it feels very narrow and I'm honestly not sure we reliably get to 1BB before they get the kill done. Our own leyline isn't going to do anything since they have easy access to echoing truth and draw their whole deck when they go off.
If the deck becomes more prominent, then I'd argue for targeted removal in the SB. When DSZ was on the rise I started running Terminate and EE since it cleanly answered the threat. Fatal Push is the better option now, but the idea is the same. Again I'm not saying that the match isn't a race, but I am not convinced at this time that it impacts us much. I haven't seen a whole lot of results from it on MTGO, but I also understand there is a lot of buzz around it right now as well.
Round 1 vs. GW Tron. I mulligan 2 no land hands to 5. He gets Tron on turn 3 and Karn too. He exiles some redundant cards from my hand. I have 3 land, Simian Spirit Guide, and Through the Breach/Worldspine Wurm. I miss the land, SSG, Desperate Ritual, or Nourishing Shoal to splice, and then lose a few turns later. He played Oblivion Stone next turn anyway, so I would have had to figure out how to do the rest of the damage. In the next game, I go off on turn 3 with Vengeance on Griselbrand, as I was only missing 1 piece of the puzzle in my opener and had Looting and Whisper. No mulls that game. In the last game, I keep a hand that does turn 4 Worldspine Wurm, hoping to draw an accelerant. I do on turn 3 and turn 3 the Wurm. He does Path to Exile on 1 the next turn with a Star, but the remaining 2 swing past a lonely Spellskite to win. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Cheerios. Yay! I get to play against an even quicker deck. Yay! I get to lose the die roll. Yay! I get to play a player who has had tremendous luck against me in the past, including the only person to turn 3 me with Ad Nauseam (twice). Yay! I mulligan to 6, having no land. He tries to go off on turn 2, misses, but draws (or had) Retract the following turn to win. I win the next game on turn 3. I go for Through the Breach/Worldspine Wurm while he was at 15, had 2 mana open, and hadn't played much. He does Path to Exile and I Pact of Negation it. In the last game, I had 0 land in my opener again. This was my hand - 2 Inquisition of Kozilek, 2 Faithless Looting, Goryo's Vengeance, Griselbrand, and Manamorphose. I felt that this is the best I can do vs. a deck that kills me turns 2 or 3 on the play. NINE turns later after beating me down with 2 creatures (presumably had multiple Sram in hand, it being a legend) to 12, he finds Grapeshot. I had discarded 8 cards and had 0 lands in play. 1-2.
Round 3 vs. Grixis Delver. I played against this girl once before. I knew what she was on. In the first game, she taps out on turn 2. I Goryo's Vengeance and combo out. In the next game, an awkward hand allowed her to put me near 10 after a Delver flip. Me comboing out was tougher, as I had less life and I drew a really weird 14. The next game was similar. I died to my own Pact trigger next turn as I failed to find Shoal, 2 more land, or something else and died. 1-2.
Round 4 vs. UR Storm. After some draws by me, he Stormed off turn 4 or 5 with Empty the Warrens and Grapeshot both. In the next game, I go off pretty early and he can't beat Wurm tokens. I was so scared when he tapped 2, thinking Echoing Truth, but it was Desperate Ravings and he scooped afterward. In the last game, I failed to find a kill condition in my 21 draws, so I put myself high in life, but without a win-con left, except a hard cast Griselbrand and 1 Simian Spirit Guide. I had 15 cards left. It got down to 4 cards when I drew the Simian Spirit Guide, but the clock would put him at 1 before I die to not being able to draw a card. I draw Griselbrand and hard cast it on the 2nd to last turn and swing for the game. Crazy game, but I made some discard mistakes. 2-1.
Round 5 vs. Enchantress. Here is his report from his perspective. He did it better, so...
"Round 5 - Grishoal Brand (player *****).
For some reason, what happened in this match is drawing a blank, but I do remember landing an early Herald of the Pantheon into Ghostly Prison in Game 1 after he Spliced a Through the Breach onto a Nourishing Shoal, getting out a Worldspine Wurm that he was wasn't able to attack with, but got the 3 tokens out of it that he sat on for a while until I got the hard lock on him and he scooped and we moved to Game 2. Game 2, his deck did exactly as it was supposed to do and went off on Turn 2 with Goryo's Vengence-ing back a Giselbrand, drawing into a more lifegain with Nourishing Shoal/Worldspine Wurm, then eventually Splicing a Through the Breach onto a second one, putting in another Worldspine Wurm. Was cool to watch it go off, as I don't get to see it often. Game 3, I start out with a Leyline in play and an early Ghostly Prison, he simply can't fight through it. I can't remember if I win off of Kessig or angel beats, but it was one of the two.
Match result - 3-2." 1-2 for me.
Round 6 vs. Mono Green Infect. He plays the same thing both games after getting the play. Turn 1 Cathedral of War. Turn 2 1/1 artifact infecter, (1 Plague Myr and 1 Ichorclaw Myr), and then turn 3 Might of Old Krosa, Giant Growth, and Mutagenic Growth and double Might of Old Krosa in the game 2. I lost in 2 minutes right after something happened in my personal life that I had on my phone. So I wasn't really in the right mind frame anyway. 0-2.
Round 7 vs. Junk. Basically he does and average of 2-3 discard spells per game, each time taking something dehabilitating to him. Three times it was the win-con and twice it was Blood Moon with 0 basics in play for him. He showed me the Path to Exile in his hand when he left Overgrown Tomb untapped instead of Godless Shrine to flash back Lingering Souls. The mistake was the only reason I went for it. 1-2.
Round 8 vs. Esper Control. I comboed him on turn 3 with Through the Breach from my opener into Worldspine Wurm, but I drew Griselbrand and won instead. In the next game, he counters my Goryo's Vengeance at EoT, but I have another one for my turn and win. He seems really surprised that I had done so poorly so far. I told him my other draws and mulligans were different. 2-0.
Round 9 vs. Mono Blue Tron. I held off on some spells because I tried to play around his countermagic. On turn 2, I passed and did Manamorphose at the end of his turn. He did Condescend, allowing me to Nigh's Whisper the next turn and get ahead on cards. I end up splicing EoT into my turn Goryo's Vengeance to win the game with a Worldspine Wurm and Griselbrand. This was after a Thought-Knot Seer and I had scried Through the Breach to the top. In the next game, he turn 4 Thought-Knot Seer'ed me, but took the wrong card so I had 2 copies of Goryo's Vengeance. One was countered, but the other resolved and killed him. He was very inexperienced playing against my deck. 2-0.
I am still tired from 10 hours of Magic and less than 30 minutes of eating that day, so I will be back for more details. The Cliffnotes are that I got smashed, losing to many players who probably barely began playing Magic and just didn't know how to play against Grishoalbrand in general. 4-5 on the day.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)