Chalice is definitely a tricky card, and way more relevant on the play than on the draw. There are some deckbuilding costs to it (ie not running Serum Visions which people have already moved away from) but I'm pretty sure cutting Faithless would be a mistake to allocate Chalice.
Oh sorry if I sounded like I was suggesting removing Faithless Looting for Chalice of the Void, I meant to say that with a chalice in play, faithless can't be played (and, maybe I'm wrong but it couldn't be flashback either as it doesn't affect the CMC, right?) which is a pretty big hit.
I do agree that chalice is great against a lot of decks though and a lot of them seem to be bad match ups so it's definitely worth talking about it. I've never played against Bogles but I would think it's a pretty tough match up (no removal main, they life link, run path main, etc..) where chalice would help but I think Spellskite might be better.
I think Chalice would be interesting tech in the PT style Emrakul builds (either Grixis or BR lists) since they can afford to run more interaction and are slower in general. I don't really like the idea in shoal lists though. If anyone starts testing it out though, I'd love to hear some results.
I went 3-0 at modern night this week beating Ad Nauseum, Grixis Delver and Jund. I'm really liking Emrakul instead of the second Borborygmos, it feels like I win swinging with an Emrakul and Griselbrand way more often than I win with Borborygmos.
Collective Brutality is still awesome but I think 3 might be too many. I would go down to 2 but I'm not sure what to take replace it with.
I didn't take notes but all 3 matches felt like I had a good chance to win. Ad Nauseum is a bit tricky but we're faster than them so just need to make sure to combo before they do which isn't unrealistic. I borded in Pacts of Negation and Duress and pacts came in handy in game 2 and 3.
Against Delver Collective Brutality just does so much work. Killing a Delver and making them discard a counter on top of discarding a Griselbrand is just so much value. My opponent tried to spell snare my shoal+wurm which I had let happened a couple of times since I picked up the deck but last week I learned that the cmc becomes 13 so that's good to know.
Against Jund I combo on my opponent end of turn 2 in game 1 with the nut draw. I board in Blood Moons and Leyline. Unfortunately I don't see any of them in game 2 until I draw 2 Leyline in a row which sucks. Game 3 I have a terrible opening 7 so go down to 6 and get a Leyline. My opponent's hand has a thoughtseize and inquisition so that's 2 blank cards at least for a while. I'm a bit unlucky with draws and I never find a Griselbrand but I have a goryo's in hand and facing a goyf but not much else. Eventually I draw Emrakul, pitch it to Collective Brutality and swing for the win.
I think all 3 of those matchups are pretty good for us. My biggest concern right now are hard counter decks. I'm thinking of adding a Boseiju to my sideboard, maybe even main, but I've seen a couple UW lists recently playing Ghost Quarters and crucible which is already tough enough for us since it can really tax black mana. 2 colours also allows them to play a lot of basics so blood moon isn't too disrupting. Thoughts?
If you don't like hard counter decks, than run some sweet Defense Grid. Card is bonkers against them ^^
Otherwise, I kicked the Leylines in the SB, since they were to clunky for me. So only Blood Moons, Defense Grid, Shatter Storm, Shattering Spree, Sudden Shock, Pyroclasm, Anger and Surgical Extraction is in the board now.
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
If you don't like hard counter decks, than run some sweet Defense Grid. Card is bonkers against them ^^
Otherwise, I kicked the Leylines in the SB, since they were to clunky for me. So only Blood Moons, Defense Grid, Shatter Storm, Shattering Spree, Sudden Shock, Pyroclasm, Anger and Surgical Extraction is in the board now.
Greetings,
Kathal
I agree about the leylines. Drawing one is such a bad feeling and I don't think we can afford to mulligan for them. Most times I'd rather have a fast hand than a slow one with a leyline. I play against a lot of burn though so I'm not sure yet. Atarka's command and skullcrack are the things I worry the most about and leyline doesn't really help.
Doesn't defense grid slow you down a lot? Not being able to goryo's or TTB on the opponent's end step would slow me down quite a bit.
PPTQ report: Top 8 again, crashed out in the semis for 3rd place overall.
Only changes this week was -1 Sudden Shock, +1 Anger of the Gods
Rd 1 vs UW Control (2-1)
Same opponent as my GPT Qtr Finals loss. I win a fairly easy match up, but game 2 (the one he won) was a great back and forth. Highlight of this match was winning on his turn 2 in Game 3 in response to his fetch.
Rd 2 vs Jeskai Nahiri (2-1)
Game 1 he is very aggressive with bolts and helix. When he taps out for Nahiri though, that was the only window I needed. He took game 2 (didn't take great notes, but it looks like I drew a bunch of cards and died). Game 3 I play it safe and EOT TTB w/ Boseiju to make it uncounterable. He Cliques in response which I thought was a pretty nifty play, but I had 2 Griselbrand in hand and combo off on my turn.
Rd 3 vs. Merfolk (2-0)
Newer player to modern, had no idea what I was up to. I win on turn 3 both games.
Rd 4 vs Tron (2-0)
Not much to say here. T3 Griselbrands both games
Rd 5 & 6 (IDs)
Only 2 undefeated players mean we draw in rd 5 and draw w/ our rd 6 opponents for a lock in top 8. I go into the Qtr Finals as 2nd Seed.
Qtr Finals vs 5c Slivers (2-1)
Game 1 he gets there w/ me not really doing much (drawing a lot of lands). Games 2 and 3 I win on t3. Interesting match up, but they have a hard time interacting with what our deck does.
Semi Finals vs Living End (1-2)
Get a favorable pairing... but every favorable pairing can sometimes just produce an unfavorable result. Game 1 was super durdley and I eventually win w/ a naturally discarded Griselbrand, but my deck made me work for it (drew all the way down to 3 cards at his EOT, untap faithless looting for the remaining 2 spirit guides I needed). Games 2 and 3 he gets there with me not really seeing anything worthwhile. Bad beats.
So, 3 consecutive top 8s (2x PPTQ, 1x GPT) and finally broke my rut in the first round of top 8s. I am developing a rep in the local grinder scene and I hear people moaning when they get paired up with me which is awesome. I've got a double PPTQ weekend coming up, so hopefully I can keep the streak alive and finally put one away.
I am running straight BR since I don't feel like the Grixis shell gives you enough consistency to justify the more painful mana (and I love blood moon). The only card I wish I had access too out of the grixis shell is Izzet Charm instead of Tormenting Voice. That being said, my SB is currently very removal heavy since I keep running into creature aggro. Terminate feels great, though it only comes in in specific match ups (Zooicide, Jund, Bant Eldrazi). My artifact hate is pretty light at the moment despite seeing affinity, but between the spot removal, sweepers, and shattering sprees, that match up has become much improved.
On Collective Brutality: It didn't do nearly as much for me yesterday as it did at the GPT last week, but I like the card in the list a lot. Certainly better than Thoughtseize despite TS being the more powerful card. Having a flexible card that provides just enough interaction while also being able to advance our game plan is amazing. One of my biggest mistakes was boarding this card out against living end (mistakenly valued Blood Moon over it) since it was my only way to interact with what they are doing.
I'm using the exact same main except I run 3 swamps and 2 verdant catacombs. I seem to be having a hard time post-board so it might be time to review my sideboard though. Looking at my past results I seem to win game 1 a lot then just lose 2 and 3.
Personally I love the scry lands. Coming into play tapped is kind of a bummer, but we need all the filtering we can get. I advocate a 4 of since you want to see them early (arguably your best T1 play outside of Faithless Looting) and they are ok to discard if you are whiffing on key pieces later on. Whenever I side in Bosejiu, I usually cut a Blackcleave instead of a Temple if that gives you an idea.
As for Defense Grid, Kathal has been trying it out and enjoying it. If I were to add it in, it would probably be in place of Damnation or maybe Lightning Axe depending on how many I wanted (probably 2?). Primarily bring them in against U based control decks. I thought about running it in the Caleb Durward style build since it can't use the Splice mechanic as well as the shoal version does.
I'm using the exact same main except I run 3 swamps and 2 verdant catacombs. I seem to be having a hard time post-board so it might be time to review my sideboard though. Looking at my past results I seem to win game 1 a lot then just lose 2 and 3.
I was running 2 extra fetches (catacombs or deltas), but I am happy to have cut them. Fetches have an odd tension in this deck of both thinning your deck (good!) and reducing the amount of lands available for the Borborygmos kill (bad). The way I look at it, those 2 fetches were essentially taking out 12 damage from the combo potentially. Replacing them with Blackcleave Cliffs has been great. As for the number of basics, I like running a lot of basics overall since it makes Path and GQ worse, allows me to run blood moon reliably, and keeps our self damage to a minimum. I may even cut a Blood Crypt, but having 2 fetchable duals available is nice when you have an awkward hand (say 2 fetches, TTB, Shoal, Wurm, Griselbrand, Looting).
If you don't like hard counter decks, than run some sweet Defense Grid. Card is bonkers against them ^^
Otherwise, I kicked the Leylines in the SB, since they were to clunky for me. So only Blood Moons, Defense Grid, Shatter Storm, Shattering Spree, Sudden Shock, Pyroclasm, Anger and Surgical Extraction is in the board now.
Greetings,
Kathal
I agree about the leylines. Drawing one is such a bad feeling and I don't think we can afford to mulligan for them. Most times I'd rather have a fast hand than a slow one with a leyline. I play against a lot of burn though so I'm not sure yet. Atarka's command and skullcrack are the things I worry the most about and leyline doesn't really help.
Doesn't defense grid slow you down a lot? Not being able to goryo's or TTB on the opponent's end step would slow me down quite a bit.
Burn is still a good match-up, you just have to know when to do what.
Regarding Defense Grid, the nice thing about it is, that you do not need to do any splice shenanigans, cause you are safe to just win on your turn. Why? Cause your opponent has to pay 3 mana more for counter spells. Hence, the soonest he can counter something is turn 4 with a Dispel/Spell Snare/Stubborn Denial/Spell Pierce or turn 5 with Remand/Mana Leak/Negate/Countersquall. This SHOULD buy us more than enough time to kill the opponent. Furthermore, if you are reaching the moment, when the opponent has more than 6 lands and is a U based control deck, than you have to go for a splice (or double cheat spell) play in your turn, since otherwise you ain't winning that game either way.
Yes, Pact is better against low to the ground counter decks (Delver mainly), but Defense Grid lets you grind better vs Control decks (they can hardly counter your cantrips, which is awesome). So, depending on how your meta looks, you either play Pacts (Delver heavy metagame) or Defense Grid (UWR Nahiri, Esper/UW Control heavy metagame). I could imagine running a split of both of them, but since Delver like decks are close to non existent here, I went for straight Defense Grid.
I am running straight BR since I don't feel like the Grixis shell gives you enough consistency to justify the more painful mana (and I love blood moon). The only card I wish I had access too out of the grixis shell is Izzet Charm instead of Tormenting Voice. That being said, my SB is currently very removal heavy since I keep running into creature aggro. Terminate feels great, though it only comes in in specific match ups (Zooicide, Jund, Bant Eldrazi). My artifact hate is pretty light at the moment despite seeing affinity, but between the spot removal, sweepers, and shattering sprees, that match up has become much improved.
On Collective Brutality: It didn't do nearly as much for me yesterday as it did at the GPT last week, but I like the card in the list a lot. Certainly better than Thoughtseize despite TS being the more powerful card. Having a flexible card that provides just enough interaction while also being able to advance our game plan is amazing. One of my biggest mistakes was boarding this card out against living end (mistakenly valued Blood Moon over it) since it was my only way to interact with what they are doing.
Yes, Izzet Charm is (also for me now) the main reason to go into U, but a worse manabase (and arguably also SB) does not warrant it for me anymore. Regarding your SB, especially the artefact hate, when you are running 2 Anger and Shattering Spree, it should be more than enough to handle that match-up ^^
I'm also tinkering with cutting my Shatterstorm for more spot removal (Terminate e.g.), but my local metagame is VERY Affinity heavy (roughly 20% of the metagame), so I kinda want it. Though, my metagame is very hostile either way due to the sheer amount of Delver, Affinity and Infect running around :/ .
I'm glad, that you like Collective Brutality as much as I do ^^ . It was by far the best addition for the deck since the development of the Shoal version.
Think I'll drop the U splash and return to BR, as I'm no longer running Tigrams.
Do you rate the scry land? I've often found it puts you a turn behind?
I'll be trailing defence grid this coming week. Any suggestions on what to drop for it and how many to run vs those match ups we need it?
I rate scry lands higher, than any other land we can play. Yes, a tapped land is a pain in the ass sometimes, but the upside of it (fixing colour problems while being a "decent" cantrip) is just way to good to NOT play it. Heck, when I was starting to test the Grixis version, I was running 6 temples, because they were so good.
Regarding Defense Grid, I answered the question earlier in this post ^^
I'm currently testing 4 of them (to get them more reliable), but I think, that a 3/1 split between it and Bosejiu might be better (have to do more testing).
I'm using the exact same main except I run 3 swamps and 2 verdant catacombs. I seem to be having a hard time post-board so it might be time to review my sideboard though. Looking at my past results I seem to win game 1 a lot then just lose 2 and 3.
I was running 2 extra fetches (catacombs or deltas), but I am happy to have cut them. Fetches have an odd tension in this deck of both thinning your deck (good!) and reducing the amount of lands available for the Borborygmos kill (bad). The way I look at it, those 2 fetches were essentially taking out 12 damage from the combo potentially. Replacing them with Blackcleave Cliffs has been great. As for the number of basics, I like running a lot of basics overall since it makes Path and GQ worse, allows me to run blood moon reliably, and keeps our self damage to a minimum. I may even cut a Blood Crypt, but having 2 fetchable duals available is nice when you have an awkward hand (say 2 fetches, TTB, Shoal, Wurm, Griselbrand, Looting).
Totally agree here. Additional fetchlands costed me a couple of games, especially against opponents, where you really need the additional damage OR I couldn't draw another bunch of cards due to the 1 life loss (it is NOT free ).
As for Blood Crypts, I would always run 2 simply because of the rare case, when you need double red (for spliced TTB or Anger) + B for card draw/discard. One shock land is not enough in these cases.
Also, congratz for your finish ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Hello everyone,
I'm trying to build grixis version of the deck and I would be thankfull if someone can give few advices on questions below (List is a copy of PT Oath version)
I'm currently running 3 leyline of sanctity in SB. Should I aggressivly mulligan against BGx, until leylines are in start hand?
Due to rising dredge popularity, I can see a lot of grave hate in sb. The only way that I've found to play around grave hate is breached emrakul. Is it worth to add some aceleration like pentad prism ot 4x SSG is enougth?
What do you think about quicksilver amulet in SB?
Sorry for grammar and thank you in advance!
In the year I have been playing this deck now I always felt that the BR version is, besides the manabase, better at one thing than the grixis versions - power out an early TTB. This happens to be because of the less painfull Lands and the raw card advantage that Night's Whisper gives us while grixis constantly has less and less cards in hand due to Izzetcharm. To support this, I play 3 Rituals, which also happens to be great vs controldecks such as UWR to get more splicing done. Also I never really liked Manamorphose in this deck but the 1 off is a necessary evil.
The new addition to the deck, Collected Brutality is, as others have mentioned, really great.
On to the SB:
I added a 3rd anger over a 1off Pyroclasm to fight dredge better. Also I feel like the only MUs where Pyro is better are Burn and Affinity. The first one got better with Collected Brutalaty and the latter isn't that much worse. With the 3rd Ritual in the Main I also should be able to more often land a T2 Anger if needed.
The big change I made recently has been cutting the Bloodmoons for Leylines and I have to say I love it. While Scapshift and Jund for example were already good MUs, Leyline means just gg on Turn 0. Bloodmoon ends the Game often too, but they have ways to fight it with early discard or counters.
The real reason for the Leylines tho was Burn. This is supposed to be a good MU, but it is the only deck i have a less than <60+% winrate against. In fact it is less than 50% while most other MU's my winrate is closer to 70+%. The reason for this seems to be, while I am able to "go off", my life is pressured so much that I only get to draw 7 cards and if those dont have everything in them I fizzle. Also game 1 TTB -> wurm is often the better out but in games 2 and 3 they have Paths and even worse, Deflecting Palm. We can't attack with our big hasty 15/15 into two open lands unless we lose the next turn anyway. Therefore I decided to just say "f*ck you burn" and added 4 Leylines.
Maybe someone can give me some help with the burn MU.
Sorry if the grammar or language isn't too great, it's not my native language.
Hello everyone,
I'm trying to build grixis version of the deck and I would be thankfull if someone can give few advices on questions below (List is a copy of PT Oath version)
I'm currently running 3 leyline of sanctity in SB. Should I aggressivly mulligan against BGx, until leylines are in start hand?
Due to rising dredge popularity, I can see a lot of grave hate in sb. The only way that I've found to play around grave hate is breached emrakul. Is it worth to add some aceleration like pentad prism ot 4x SSG is enougth?
What do you think about quicksilver amulet in SB?
Sorry for grammar and thank you in advance!
I've only played the PT OGW Grixis version a few times, so my answer may not be the best, but it is similar to the Caleb Durward style BR list in many ways.
Personally I don't particularly enjoy Leyline vs Jund. More often then not, I found myself aggressively searching for it only to die to Goyf or Raging Ravine activation while doing little else. Both the BR and the Grixis versions run a lot of cantrips and card draw, so targeted discard should be fairly easy to overcome.
As for acceleration, SSG should be enough, but Pentad Prism is excellent and Quicksilver Amulet was one of my SB plans against control decks. The Grixis build is pretty tight though, so I'm not sure what you would want to cut to make room for those cards (perhaps Jace?). Desperate Ritual is also an option for acceleration (can't remember if the PT version ran it or not...).
Again, my experience on the Emrakul list came from a mostly BR "control" style list which had less filtering than the grixis version and could be tuned to personal preference (discard, removal, pentad prism, etc). Hopefully that helps a little bit...
Thanks a lot for detailed answer!
I'm litte bit confused on decision about discard griselbrand or not, if I have no goryo in hand. Sometimes I discard griselbrand and few turns later I have breach in hand and I have enougth mana for it, but I have no creatures in hand.
For example, my open hand is few fetches, griselbrand, looting, serum visions, jace, izzet charm. Should I discard griselbrand with looting on turn 1, or should I play serum, and make a choise based on my topdeck? (If I on the play, I can filter 9 cards during 3 turns: 3(serum) + 1 (draw on turn 2) + 2 (looting)+1 (draw on turn 3) + 2(flashback looting or izzet charm), so chances to get goryo before turn 4 are 54%. Chances to play breach on turn 4 with ssg or manually on turn 5 are the same. So should I discard griselbrand or not?)
What about opening hands like emrakul+breach+few lands and looting?
Especially with a hand like this, you want to play Visions first to know, what cheat spell you will get. Afterwards play the Jace (which will likely die), if not, you can now play looting into flip Jace and than you "always" have a discard outlet via flashback looting IF you find a Goryo's.
So, first the non looting cantrips, than the looting ones ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: This is also true for the Shoal version. Sometimes it is better to go Night's Whisper on turn 2 first, before casting that Looting in your hand.
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
PS: This is also true for the Shoal version. Sometimes it is better to go Night's Whisper on turn 2 first, before casting that Looting in your hand.
Agreed. Looting hoping to find a combo piece never seems to work for me. The addition of Collective Brutality as a new discard outlet makes it better though where I don't mind looting earlier if I have an extra land in hand and can pitch it along with whatever else I don't really need knowing I can discard to Collective Brutality later if I find a Goryo's Vengeance before a TTB.
My meta has no affinity but I've been seeing more and more Grafdigger's Cage and Chalice on 1 (not too bad) and 2 (terrible!) so I really need artifact hate in my sideboard. What do you guys recommend to get rid of specific artifacts? Meaning I don't thing Shatterstorm is required since I only really want to destroy 1-2 things. I was thinking Shattering Spree? I also saw on Echoing Ruin on Gatherer but don't think I've ever seen that card in a list anywhere. My main concern is with Chalice on 1 I can't get rid of anything using Shattering Spree.
I also added Defense Grid to my sideboard after Kathal mentioned it in here but didn't get to use it yet. I brought it in against UB Faeries on Monday but it got countered the one time I saw it. It would've won me the game next turn had I been able to resolve it though so I think I'll keep it in the sideboard for now.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, has anybody tried Kolaghan's Command at all? One of the mode is an instant speed discard if you target yourself. Returning a creature to your hand form the graveyard could be a surprise against a Relic activation. Rakdos Charm could also be decent in the sideboard as instant speed artifact removal.
Just to clarify something, Shattering Spree gives a crap about Chalice @1. Why? Cause the Replicated copies are not cast and thus not countered by Chalice. So you can basically cast it, replicate it twice and kill two Artifacts.
Regarding K-Command: No idea and have not tested it ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Just to clarify something, Shattering Spree gives a crap about Chalice @1. Why? Cause the Replicated copies are not cast and thus not countered by Chalice. So you can basically cast it, replicate it twice and kill two Artifacts.
Ah! I was just wondering that. That's great then, I think Shattering Spree will be the artifact hate of choice then. Also a good way to get around a counter if you have the mana to spare and are fearing a counter.
PS: This is also true for the Shoal version. Sometimes it is better to go Night's Whisper on turn 2 first, before casting that Looting in your hand.
Agreed. Looting hoping to find a combo piece never seems to work for me. The addition of Collective Brutality as a new discard outlet makes it better though where I don't mind looting earlier if I have an extra land in hand and can pitch it along with whatever else I don't really need knowing I can discard to Collective Brutality later if I find a Goryo's Vengeance before a TTB.
My meta has no affinity but I've been seeing more and more Grafdigger's Cage and Chalice on 1 (not too bad) and 2 (terrible!) so I really need artifact hate in my sideboard. What do you guys recommend to get rid of specific artifacts? Meaning I don't thing Shatterstorm is required since I only really want to destroy 1-2 things. I was thinking Shattering Spree? I also saw on Echoing Ruin on Gatherer but don't think I've ever seen that card in a list anywhere. My main concern is with Chalice on 1 I can't get rid of anything using Shattering Spree.
I also added Defense Grid to my sideboard after Kathal mentioned it in here but didn't get to use it yet. I brought it in against UB Faeries on Monday but it got countered the one time I saw it. It would've won me the game next turn had I been able to resolve it though so I think I'll keep it in the sideboard for now.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, has anybody tried Kolaghan's Command at all? One of the mode is an instant speed discard if you target yourself. Returning a creature to your hand form the graveyard could be a surprise against a Relic activation. Rakdos Charm could also be decent in the sideboard as instant speed artifact removal.
I've used Rakdos Charm before and currently use Shattering Spree. With Dredge being a thing I may consider charm again, but I don't like it quite as much. Shattering spree is just a lot more mana efficient and replicate makes it difficult to counter / play around (gets around welding jar for example). Chalice on 1 would be a bit annoying, but not really problematic IMO. I'd almost argue that Engineered Explosives might be the card you are looking for though. EE on 0 takes care of any chalice and can also hit problem permanents like Cage or RIP.
Oh sorry if I sounded like I was suggesting removing Faithless Looting for Chalice of the Void, I meant to say that with a chalice in play, faithless can't be played (and, maybe I'm wrong but it couldn't be flashback either as it doesn't affect the CMC, right?) which is a pretty big hit.
I do agree that chalice is great against a lot of decks though and a lot of them seem to be bad match ups so it's definitely worth talking about it. I've never played against Bogles but I would think it's a pretty tough match up (no removal main, they life link, run path main, etc..) where chalice would help but I think Spellskite might be better.
Modern
RGB Grishoalbrand
U Merfolks
Legacy
U Merfolks
I went 3-0 at modern night this week beating Ad Nauseum, Grixis Delver and Jund. I'm really liking Emrakul instead of the second Borborygmos, it feels like I win swinging with an Emrakul and Griselbrand way more often than I win with Borborygmos.
Collective Brutality is still awesome but I think 3 might be too many. I would go down to 2 but I'm not sure what to take replace it with.
I didn't take notes but all 3 matches felt like I had a good chance to win. Ad Nauseum is a bit tricky but we're faster than them so just need to make sure to combo before they do which isn't unrealistic. I borded in Pacts of Negation and Duress and pacts came in handy in game 2 and 3.
Against Delver Collective Brutality just does so much work. Killing a Delver and making them discard a counter on top of discarding a Griselbrand is just so much value. My opponent tried to spell snare my shoal+wurm which I had let happened a couple of times since I picked up the deck but last week I learned that the cmc becomes 13 so that's good to know.
Against Jund I combo on my opponent end of turn 2 in game 1 with the nut draw. I board in Blood Moons and Leyline. Unfortunately I don't see any of them in game 2 until I draw 2 Leyline in a row which sucks. Game 3 I have a terrible opening 7 so go down to 6 and get a Leyline. My opponent's hand has a thoughtseize and inquisition so that's 2 blank cards at least for a while. I'm a bit unlucky with draws and I never find a Griselbrand but I have a goryo's in hand and facing a goyf but not much else. Eventually I draw Emrakul, pitch it to Collective Brutality and swing for the win.
I think all 3 of those matchups are pretty good for us. My biggest concern right now are hard counter decks. I'm thinking of adding a Boseiju to my sideboard, maybe even main, but I've seen a couple UW lists recently playing Ghost Quarters and crucible which is already tough enough for us since it can really tax black mana. 2 colours also allows them to play a lot of basics so blood moon isn't too disrupting. Thoughts?
Modern
RGB Grishoalbrand
U Merfolks
Legacy
U Merfolks
Otherwise, I kicked the Leylines in the SB, since they were to clunky for me. So only Blood Moons, Defense Grid, Shatter Storm, Shattering Spree, Sudden Shock, Pyroclasm, Anger and Surgical Extraction is in the board now.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I agree about the leylines. Drawing one is such a bad feeling and I don't think we can afford to mulligan for them. Most times I'd rather have a fast hand than a slow one with a leyline. I play against a lot of burn though so I'm not sure yet. Atarka's command and skullcrack are the things I worry the most about and leyline doesn't really help.
Doesn't defense grid slow you down a lot? Not being able to goryo's or TTB on the opponent's end step would slow me down quite a bit.
Modern
RGB Grishoalbrand
U Merfolks
Legacy
U Merfolks
Only changes this week was -1 Sudden Shock, +1 Anger of the Gods
Rd 1 vs UW Control (2-1)
Same opponent as my GPT Qtr Finals loss. I win a fairly easy match up, but game 2 (the one he won) was a great back and forth. Highlight of this match was winning on his turn 2 in Game 3 in response to his fetch.
Rd 2 vs Jeskai Nahiri (2-1)
Game 1 he is very aggressive with bolts and helix. When he taps out for Nahiri though, that was the only window I needed. He took game 2 (didn't take great notes, but it looks like I drew a bunch of cards and died). Game 3 I play it safe and EOT TTB w/ Boseiju to make it uncounterable. He Cliques in response which I thought was a pretty nifty play, but I had 2 Griselbrand in hand and combo off on my turn.
Rd 3 vs. Merfolk (2-0)
Newer player to modern, had no idea what I was up to. I win on turn 3 both games.
Rd 4 vs Tron (2-0)
Not much to say here. T3 Griselbrands both games
Rd 5 & 6 (IDs)
Only 2 undefeated players mean we draw in rd 5 and draw w/ our rd 6 opponents for a lock in top 8. I go into the Qtr Finals as 2nd Seed.
Qtr Finals vs 5c Slivers (2-1)
Game 1 he gets there w/ me not really doing much (drawing a lot of lands). Games 2 and 3 I win on t3. Interesting match up, but they have a hard time interacting with what our deck does.
Semi Finals vs Living End (1-2)
Get a favorable pairing... but every favorable pairing can sometimes just produce an unfavorable result. Game 1 was super durdley and I eventually win w/ a naturally discarded Griselbrand, but my deck made me work for it (drew all the way down to 3 cards at his EOT, untap faithless looting for the remaining 2 spirit guides I needed). Games 2 and 3 he gets there with me not really seeing anything worthwhile. Bad beats.
So, 3 consecutive top 8s (2x PPTQ, 1x GPT) and finally broke my rut in the first round of top 8s. I am developing a rep in the local grinder scene and I hear people moaning when they get paired up with me which is awesome. I've got a double PPTQ weekend coming up, so hopefully I can keep the streak alive and finally put one away.
4 Griselbrand
2 Borborygmos Enraged
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Worldspine Wurm
Spells (28)
4 Faithless Looting
3 Night's Whisper
2 Tormenting Voice
4 Through the Breach
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Nourishing Shoal
2 Desperate Ritual
1 Manamorphose
3 Collective Brutality
5 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Pact of Negation
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Shattering Spree
1 Damnation
3 Blood Moon
2 Lightning Axe
2 Terminate
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
I am running straight BR since I don't feel like the Grixis shell gives you enough consistency to justify the more painful mana (and I love blood moon). The only card I wish I had access too out of the grixis shell is Izzet Charm instead of Tormenting Voice. That being said, my SB is currently very removal heavy since I keep running into creature aggro. Terminate feels great, though it only comes in in specific match ups (Zooicide, Jund, Bant Eldrazi). My artifact hate is pretty light at the moment despite seeing affinity, but between the spot removal, sweepers, and shattering sprees, that match up has become much improved.
On Collective Brutality: It didn't do nearly as much for me yesterday as it did at the GPT last week, but I like the card in the list a lot. Certainly better than Thoughtseize despite TS being the more powerful card. Having a flexible card that provides just enough interaction while also being able to advance our game plan is amazing. One of my biggest mistakes was boarding this card out against living end (mistakenly valued Blood Moon over it) since it was my only way to interact with what they are doing.
Modern
RGB Grishoalbrand
U Merfolks
Legacy
U Merfolks
As for Defense Grid, Kathal has been trying it out and enjoying it. If I were to add it in, it would probably be in place of Damnation or maybe Lightning Axe depending on how many I wanted (probably 2?). Primarily bring them in against U based control decks. I thought about running it in the Caleb Durward style build since it can't use the Splice mechanic as well as the shoal version does.
I was running 2 extra fetches (catacombs or deltas), but I am happy to have cut them. Fetches have an odd tension in this deck of both thinning your deck (good!) and reducing the amount of lands available for the Borborygmos kill (bad). The way I look at it, those 2 fetches were essentially taking out 12 damage from the combo potentially. Replacing them with Blackcleave Cliffs has been great. As for the number of basics, I like running a lot of basics overall since it makes Path and GQ worse, allows me to run blood moon reliably, and keeps our self damage to a minimum. I may even cut a Blood Crypt, but having 2 fetchable duals available is nice when you have an awkward hand (say 2 fetches, TTB, Shoal, Wurm, Griselbrand, Looting).
Burn is still a good match-up, you just have to know when to do what.
Regarding Defense Grid, the nice thing about it is, that you do not need to do any splice shenanigans, cause you are safe to just win on your turn. Why? Cause your opponent has to pay 3 mana more for counter spells. Hence, the soonest he can counter something is turn 4 with a Dispel/Spell Snare/Stubborn Denial/Spell Pierce or turn 5 with Remand/Mana Leak/Negate/Countersquall. This SHOULD buy us more than enough time to kill the opponent. Furthermore, if you are reaching the moment, when the opponent has more than 6 lands and is a U based control deck, than you have to go for a splice (or double cheat spell) play in your turn, since otherwise you ain't winning that game either way.
Yes, Pact is better against low to the ground counter decks (Delver mainly), but Defense Grid lets you grind better vs Control decks (they can hardly counter your cantrips, which is awesome). So, depending on how your meta looks, you either play Pacts (Delver heavy metagame) or Defense Grid (UWR Nahiri, Esper/UW Control heavy metagame). I could imagine running a split of both of them, but since Delver like decks are close to non existent here, I went for straight Defense Grid.
Yes, Izzet Charm is (also for me now) the main reason to go into U, but a worse manabase (and arguably also SB) does not warrant it for me anymore. Regarding your SB, especially the artefact hate, when you are running 2 Anger and Shattering Spree, it should be more than enough to handle that match-up ^^
I'm also tinkering with cutting my Shatterstorm for more spot removal (Terminate e.g.), but my local metagame is VERY Affinity heavy (roughly 20% of the metagame), so I kinda want it. Though, my metagame is very hostile either way due to the sheer amount of Delver, Affinity and Infect running around :/ .
I'm glad, that you like Collective Brutality as much as I do ^^ . It was by far the best addition for the deck since the development of the Shoal version.
I rate scry lands higher, than any other land we can play. Yes, a tapped land is a pain in the ass sometimes, but the upside of it (fixing colour problems while being a "decent" cantrip) is just way to good to NOT play it. Heck, when I was starting to test the Grixis version, I was running 6 temples, because they were so good.
Regarding Defense Grid, I answered the question earlier in this post ^^
I'm currently testing 4 of them (to get them more reliable), but I think, that a 3/1 split between it and Bosejiu might be better (have to do more testing).
Totally agree here. Additional fetchlands costed me a couple of games, especially against opponents, where you really need the additional damage OR I couldn't draw another bunch of cards due to the 1 life loss (it is NOT free ).
As for Blood Crypts, I would always run 2 simply because of the rare case, when you need double red (for spliced TTB or Anger) + B for card draw/discard. One shock land is not enough in these cases.
Also, congratz for your finish ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I'm trying to build grixis version of the deck and I would be thankfull if someone can give few advices on questions below (List is a copy of PT Oath version)
I'm currently running 3 leyline of sanctity in SB. Should I aggressivly mulligan against BGx, until leylines are in start hand?
Due to rising dredge popularity, I can see a lot of grave hate in sb. The only way that I've found to play around grave hate is breached emrakul. Is it worth to add some aceleration like pentad prism ot 4x SSG is enougth?
What do you think about quicksilver amulet in SB?
Sorry for grammar and thank you in advance!
I plan on bringing this list to a big PPTQ this sunday.
4 Griselbrand
4 Worldspine Wurm
2 Borborygmos Enraged
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Night's Whisper
4 Faithless Looting
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Through the Breach
4 Nourishing Shoal
1 Manamorphose
3 Desperate Ritual
2 Collective Brutality
4 Temple of Malice
2 Blood Crypt
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
5 Swamp
1 Tormenting Voice
2 Pact of Negation
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Shattering Spree
1 Thoughtseize
2 Sudden Shock
4 Leyline of Sanctity
In the year I have been playing this deck now I always felt that the BR version is, besides the manabase, better at one thing than the grixis versions - power out an early TTB. This happens to be because of the less painfull Lands and the raw card advantage that Night's Whisper gives us while grixis constantly has less and less cards in hand due to Izzetcharm. To support this, I play 3 Rituals, which also happens to be great vs controldecks such as UWR to get more splicing done. Also I never really liked Manamorphose in this deck but the 1 off is a necessary evil.
The new addition to the deck, Collected Brutality is, as others have mentioned, really great.
On to the SB:
I added a 3rd anger over a 1off Pyroclasm to fight dredge better. Also I feel like the only MUs where Pyro is better are Burn and Affinity. The first one got better with Collected Brutalaty and the latter isn't that much worse. With the 3rd Ritual in the Main I also should be able to more often land a T2 Anger if needed.
The big change I made recently has been cutting the Bloodmoons for Leylines and I have to say I love it. While Scapshift and Jund for example were already good MUs, Leyline means just gg on Turn 0. Bloodmoon ends the Game often too, but they have ways to fight it with early discard or counters.
The real reason for the Leylines tho was Burn. This is supposed to be a good MU, but it is the only deck i have a less than <60+% winrate against. In fact it is less than 50% while most other MU's my winrate is closer to 70+%. The reason for this seems to be, while I am able to "go off", my life is pressured so much that I only get to draw 7 cards and if those dont have everything in them I fizzle. Also game 1 TTB -> wurm is often the better out but in games 2 and 3 they have Paths and even worse, Deflecting Palm. We can't attack with our big hasty 15/15 into two open lands unless we lose the next turn anyway. Therefore I decided to just say "f*ck you burn" and added 4 Leylines.
Maybe someone can give me some help with the burn MU.
Sorry if the grammar or language isn't too great, it's not my native language.
Greetings Mahalek
I've only played the PT OGW Grixis version a few times, so my answer may not be the best, but it is similar to the Caleb Durward style BR list in many ways.
Personally I don't particularly enjoy Leyline vs Jund. More often then not, I found myself aggressively searching for it only to die to Goyf or Raging Ravine activation while doing little else. Both the BR and the Grixis versions run a lot of cantrips and card draw, so targeted discard should be fairly easy to overcome.
As for acceleration, SSG should be enough, but Pentad Prism is excellent and Quicksilver Amulet was one of my SB plans against control decks. The Grixis build is pretty tight though, so I'm not sure what you would want to cut to make room for those cards (perhaps Jace?). Desperate Ritual is also an option for acceleration (can't remember if the PT version ran it or not...).
Again, my experience on the Emrakul list came from a mostly BR "control" style list which had less filtering than the grixis version and could be tuned to personal preference (discard, removal, pentad prism, etc). Hopefully that helps a little bit...
I'm litte bit confused on decision about discard griselbrand or not, if I have no goryo in hand. Sometimes I discard griselbrand and few turns later I have breach in hand and I have enougth mana for it, but I have no creatures in hand.
For example, my open hand is few fetches, griselbrand, looting, serum visions, jace, izzet charm. Should I discard griselbrand with looting on turn 1, or should I play serum, and make a choise based on my topdeck? (If I on the play, I can filter 9 cards during 3 turns: 3(serum) + 1 (draw on turn 2) + 2 (looting)+1 (draw on turn 3) + 2(flashback looting or izzet charm), so chances to get goryo before turn 4 are 54%. Chances to play breach on turn 4 with ssg or manually on turn 5 are the same. So should I discard griselbrand or not?)
What about opening hands like emrakul+breach+few lands and looting?
So, first the non looting cantrips, than the looting ones ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: This is also true for the Shoal version. Sometimes it is better to go Night's Whisper on turn 2 first, before casting that Looting in your hand.
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Agreed. Looting hoping to find a combo piece never seems to work for me. The addition of Collective Brutality as a new discard outlet makes it better though where I don't mind looting earlier if I have an extra land in hand and can pitch it along with whatever else I don't really need knowing I can discard to Collective Brutality later if I find a Goryo's Vengeance before a TTB.
My meta has no affinity but I've been seeing more and more Grafdigger's Cage and Chalice on 1 (not too bad) and 2 (terrible!) so I really need artifact hate in my sideboard. What do you guys recommend to get rid of specific artifacts? Meaning I don't thing Shatterstorm is required since I only really want to destroy 1-2 things. I was thinking Shattering Spree? I also saw on Echoing Ruin on Gatherer but don't think I've ever seen that card in a list anywhere. My main concern is with Chalice on 1 I can't get rid of anything using Shattering Spree.
I also added Defense Grid to my sideboard after Kathal mentioned it in here but didn't get to use it yet. I brought it in against UB Faeries on Monday but it got countered the one time I saw it. It would've won me the game next turn had I been able to resolve it though so I think I'll keep it in the sideboard for now.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, has anybody tried Kolaghan's Command at all? One of the mode is an instant speed discard if you target yourself. Returning a creature to your hand form the graveyard could be a surprise against a Relic activation. Rakdos Charm could also be decent in the sideboard as instant speed artifact removal.
Modern
RGB Grishoalbrand
U Merfolks
Legacy
U Merfolks
Regarding K-Command: No idea and have not tested it ^^
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Ah! I was just wondering that. That's great then, I think Shattering Spree will be the artifact hate of choice then. Also a good way to get around a counter if you have the mana to spare and are fearing a counter.
Thanks for the info!
Modern
RGB Grishoalbrand
U Merfolks
Legacy
U Merfolks
I've used Rakdos Charm before and currently use Shattering Spree. With Dredge being a thing I may consider charm again, but I don't like it quite as much. Shattering spree is just a lot more mana efficient and replicate makes it difficult to counter / play around (gets around welding jar for example). Chalice on 1 would be a bit annoying, but not really problematic IMO. I'd almost argue that Engineered Explosives might be the card you are looking for though. EE on 0 takes care of any chalice and can also hit problem permanents like Cage or RIP.